Re: Tough Questions for Christians #1: When can God forgive?

[Zurround100]

you religious people are all full of crap and if our species is to evolve, to explore the universe meaning SCIENCE you all need to die off to clean up the gene pool but NOOO you all keep reproducing like that movie IDIOCRACY.

[Zurround100]

One of my major problems with hell is if its eternal torture and the worst punishment possible it leaves no room to punish even worse people with a harsher sentence. For example an atheist or someone who is just a jerk will get the exact same hell as HItler, Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer, Richard Allen Davis, Charles Manson and Osama Bin Laden will get the EXACT same punishment as atheists or those practicing the "wrong" religion.

[doomdaniel95]

@Zurround100 I know hell sounds like torture, but it really isn't. You may have heard the term "weeping and gnashing of teeth" many times. Gnashing of teeth refers to when people realize they've made big mistakes. If you ever gnash your teeth, you're probably agitated, not being tortured. God loves people, and the reason we have free will is because He wants us to GENUINELY love him back. :) He knows some will find it ridiculous, but He knows others, like me, love Him.

[doomdaniel95]

@Zurround100 And hell actually does have different degrees of suffering..so, Hitler will be punished more than just a nonbeliever. But what drives God to punish--not torture--people is that He gives many chances for people to get to know Him. However, when people ridicule their own Creator, and say, "I absolutely refuse to even consider believing in God," that's when He punishes. People make mistakes all the time (like when David adulterated), but God forgave him and let him enter Heaven.

[Scilent4Science]

are you talking about the same god who killed many peple in the bible yet sends you to burn in hell if you were to do such a thing yourself?

[RockBanned]

Anything that man does, including having a sinful nature or sinning is ultimately God's responsibility, sorry. He could have created a universe without sin, without hell and without stepping on anyone's free will or creating a need for some test or "higher learning" from suffering and sin. Suffering and sin only exist in the world because God intends it to be so; therefore God cannot be all loving

[ndjarnag]

This doesn't address the question of "when", which was the subject of the original video.

[west26cali]

I wonder if you can prove your claim, without using the bible??

[gulamf]

Im sorry this explanation makes no sense at all.

[Ktlc003]

I truly think that believing in God is enough to have the gates of Heaven opened to you. However, and this is a very big but, if you truly believe with your heart, you will choose to act in a way that reflects it. In a essense Yes, Faith is enough, but faith alone is impossible, Faith and good deeds are interconnected indefinitely.

[jrmygray]

"God is also a God of wrath"?

"God would not be a Holy and a just God if he did not Judge or punish"?

Stupid.

Enough said.

[gusb232]

Why does it seem yahews perefect plan Is so needlessly evil.

he created us condemed to sin yet most or the people through most of history Never even had the chance to hear your gospel.

So your salvation is predicated by the Eternal tourture of BILLIONS of souls.

Is Hell really Justice for anyone who breaks the first commandmend?

Really?

[TheUsedCarSalesman]

Your version of god... not only does punish... but tortures for ETERNITY...

How can you be so blind to call that justice???

Someone can live an honest life... helping people... helping society... preaching about god... but if it all was about the wrong god... then that person is not only going to be punished... but will be tortured for ETERNITY...

God is too pure to allow sin in his presence...? well... if he is so just... why not allow sinful things to just die? why torture?

[Tobigood]

Our God does not torture. He does not willingly send countless men, women, and children to Hell. They are sent there because they did not accept His son's sacrifice to cleanse them of their sins. Those left uncleansed of their sins are seen as children of Satan, for whom Hell was created. In life, these people are offered their chance at salvation, which can be compared to a reaching hand, or risk falling into a pit of fire. It's a choice. You either take the hand, or jump into the flames.

[Widgetas]

"they did not accept His son's sacrifice" - Personally I prefer not to choose a blood sacrifice as my method of salvation. Mind you, I don't see the need for salvation anyway, but if I did then I'd rather do it through my own works than have someone die for me.

Call it selfishness if you will, but I can accept my shortcomings without resorting to having someone killed.

[azsuperman01]

We're born guilty because of something Adam did... any "sin" will be forgiven IF we believe in Jesus, any "sin" will be punished by death or eternal torture if you don't.

How is this justice?

[xchampx]

By Adam sinning, that brings the knowledge of Good and Evil into this world. We are born into a sinful world, we all become sinners. God realizes we are all hopelessly doomed and cant follow the law, so he had to make the sacrifice that can clear the debt.

[philstilwell]

So the convoluted logic goes.

Are not you able to forgive your children without exacting some kind of punishment? Forgiveness does not require anyone to suffer. It is an act of love where you give up any feelings of revenge or justice.

Since we 'sin' against god, he should be capable of this type of unconditional forgiveness in which no one needs to condemned.

It is clear your god is unjust.

[Widgetas]

Can you please explain how someone without any knowledge of good or evil, was able to understand that he should not do something when he was told not to?

Or did Adam know what right and wrong was? If so, how does that compare with not knowing what good or evil is?

Also - Do you believe in the biblical story of creation, ie Adam and Eve?

[RockBanned]

@xchampx And your God is sadistic and unjust for requiring human sacrifice as the payment for that debt. He is the ruler of all creation, if he wants to he can forgive us without requiring human sacrifice, he could have chosen any number of other less gruesome and less brutal "payments", he makes the rules and one of his rules is "to give humans salvation, a blood sacrifice is needed" and that makes him unjust and immoral.

Also even if we do owe a debt, it is unjust to let someone else pay it

[Zurround100]

@RockBanned the mistake you are making is trying to apply common sense and rationality to something that is insane, irrational, and delusional by it's very nature. I believe that there is no such thing as a sane religion just varying degrees of insanity. Recently some clever people started a business of for a fee agreeing to take care of people's pets after the rapture. If god is omnipotent and omnibenevelent he would KNOW that people love their pets and see to it that they are taken care of

[nevets815]

amen!

[philstilwell]

We are born into sin according to the bible.

Many also have no access to the gospel.

Therefore, it is clear that this god of yours is unjust if he is angry for sin when there is no real choice, and no real choice in choosing christ for redemption.

[xchampx]

We do not know what will happen to those who do not know the Lord. That is up for GOD to decide, not us. So your argument really doesn't make God look good OR bad.

[philstilwell]

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Unless you're doing hermeneutic gymnastics, it is very clear.

Your god is unjust.

[xchampx]

so you think 'believing' is enough? just simply believing?

[philstilwell]

It's your bible.

You tell me how you want to dice up and serve this verse as something other than its obvious meaning.

"...whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life."

You're no longer arguing with me, but against your own holy book.

[asdaarg]

My bible does not say "believeth not" but "does not obey". Difference. Also, the gospel is not synonymous with the bible. If the bible says God is just, then interpreting it to say he isn't is when an alternative interpretation is possible is a violation of the principle of charity.

[philstilwell]

Beautiful. I'm blogging on that response!

The god that had the Israelites dashing the brains out of children was acting justly, since it would otherwise violate his principle of charity.

That's like telling your wife that she should ignore your beating her since you are by nature loving.

Selective hermeneutics is dishonest at best, and at worse is an attempt to define anything god and his followers do as righteous.

[Widgetas]

Hey, do you have a link to that blog entry ;)

[philstilwell]

I'm a bit behind on the blogging, but you can find a lot of counter-apologetics at philstilwellDOTcom.

[Widgetas]

Tut tut. It was three months ago!

Ah well, I understand. Cheers.

[xxSOLDIERofCHRISTxx]

great video, great explanation keep it up!