Point d'orgue - Cochereau ( part 2 )

[ROGLIANO]

Ah il avait fière allure le Cavaillé de Notre Dame avant que l'on commence à y engloutir des millions ...

[rosaspon2007]

¡¡¡¡God bless you chamade216, excellent, saludos desde Buenos Aires....

[rosaspon2007]

Dios lo tenga en la gloria a monsieur Pierre Cochereau. El organo de Notre Dame de Pais estaba mejor con esa consola original...

[ds1868]

To be honest, the organ doesn't sound in great shape here either. I think it's pointless talking about a hark back to the 1868 Cavaille-Coll.As polsterj says C-C retained a great deal of Clicquot stops, notably the reeds and mixtures, in most of his big 'rebuilds'. I happen to think that Pierre Cochereau got it 'right' in the 60s by retaining what was there but adding the chamades, but the latest rebuild is all wrong: this is now an Anglo-American organ and it doesn't sound right at all.

[JohnL9013]

I find it interesting that many posters think this organ was somehow "ruined". If this organ is "ruined", I don't even know what to say about 99+% of American organs. When I heard this organ it struck me as sounding about halfway between an American and a French organ. St. Sulpice and St. Ouen are fine examples of Cavaille-Coll organs and Notre Dame's organ has simply evolved into something else due to its nature in my opinion...I still think it sounds great.

[stylusfantasticus]

Big crime to replace this state of the art console !!!!!

[willowthebored]

@chamade216

Restoration due to historical value? D=

[advisorC101]

That's no reason to replace it.

[chamade216]

Hundred times had been said and explained on varius forums the reasons why the mechanics had to go.

[advisorC101]

Inane reasons.

[menschmaschine5]

@advisorC101 A student of Latry and Lefevre that I met a few weeks ago shed some light on this. Apparently the current titulaires do not want the organ to be restored to its original state, although the possibility is there. The console is far more practical, for one thing, and this organ speaks better into the room. The way the organ is, much of the sound ends up hitting pillars in front of the loft, and so the sound is severely dampened in the room. This is why the chamades were installed.

[menschmaschine5]

@advisorC101 It's also worth noting that none of us knows what the original organ actually sounded like. Vierne's recordings were done when the organ was in terrible shape, and most of it was rendered useless (due to the Paris flood in the 1900's and the bombing of Notre Dame during WWI). What we have here is Mutin's restoration of the organ, and we can't know for sure how faithful it was.

[advisorC101]

You only need understand the science of CC's art, and have a little leap of faith. There are of organ builders that have the right kind of understanding. I retain this contention, all it needed was loving care. Not a complete metalification. Call me a stiff necked purist, but too many mistakes have been made for the sake of petty modernization. CC was extremely proud of this organ the way he built it. I think that deserves our respect, considering everything he did for the organ world.

[FrancoisHoutart]

Avec l'immense affection pour l'orgue de Notre-Dame, ça fait une petite pointe au coeur d'avoir perdu cette "fraîcheur" mécanique de l'orgue Cavaillé-Coll / "Clicquot"/ etc.

In tempore non suspecto on aurait agrandi l'orgue dans son style.

C'est comme cela, réjouissons les coeurs (qui ont tant de fois chavirés à son écoute ) !

[16flute]

Sonorité fascinante ! Quel crime d'avoir touché à ce magnifique instrument !

[ocobb4]

What a clever improvisation!

[MrABBOHLER]

Il est toujours agréable d'entendre la "pâte sonore de Notre Dame" avant l'intervention "Néo classicisante".

Et l'improvisation des jeunes années de Cochereau est un beau témoignage de ce que pouvait être les restes de l'école française d'orgue post symphonique.

Un beau témoignage!

[Dekanatskantor]

ich frag mich immer, warum das instrument nicht zurückgeführt wird

[16flute]

Ich mich auch. So klingt es immer noch am besten.

[polsterj]

Ich denke mal, dass kein Orgelbauer dazu fähig ist, eine derart ruinierte Cavaillé-Coll Orgel wieder aufzupeppeln.

[polsterj]

Unbelieveable how great this Instrument once was! But also the Cochereau-organ was no Cavaillé-Coll any more, and the present organ even less. It doesn't even sound like a french organ!

[Coranglais8]

@polsterj

The question is if it ever was a real Cavaillé-Coll, because CC re-used a lot of Clicquot stops. But when you listen to the foundation stops 16' 8' 4' you know it is Cavaillé-Coll!

[polsterj]

@Coranglais8 Well, Cavaillé-Coll used old material in all his grand organs (Notre-Dame, Saint-Sulpice, Toulouse, Rouen), I think old stops belong to the style of CC.

[Hauptwerkgek]

@polsterj present organ even less??? what are you talking about? to me it sounds french again. But to be honest I liked it more as it was in Cochereau's time. But it is still a very nice and trully french sounding instrument.

[Hauptwerkgek]

@polsterj present organ even less??? what are you talking about? to me it sounds french again. But to be honest I liked it more as it was in Cochereau's time. But it is still a very nice and truly french sounding instrument.

[polsterj]

@Hauptwerkgek It doesn't sound like Cavaille-Coll when we assume that the original CC sound was similar to Saint-Sulpice, and the Saint-Sulpice IS much different and sounds much more balanced and better, I heard both in person last weekend.

[Hauptwerkgek]

@polsterj I don't have a problem with the fact that we have two different organs now.

Of course it isn't a 100 % Cavaille- Coll anymore but it's still a very nice an french sounding instrument.

It also inspired a lot of famous organists to improvise music on a very high level, in other words this instrument

in combination with a good organist creates art, and therfore it is a fine instrument.

[bombarde1701]

I too agree that the organ was "ruined" in he restorations after this. The organ started going to the dumps even during Vierne's time there and he wanted a restoration but the Cathedral could not afford enhancements at the time. It' amazing to see how it sounded AS a Cavaille-Coll. Even now comparing and old recording from Cochereau to his later ones and even those by Latry and others, the "core" of the instrument is Cavaille-Coll...just revised and altered.

[codeman2008]

So many people don't realize just how many adjustments Vierne and Cochereau made. What makes them think that post 1960's organ sounded like an original Cavaille-Coll? People say all the time, "Well all Cochereau did was give it a new consoles." UHM... That is NOT true! He did allot more than that, and Vierne made plenty of changes too... But some people just always think they know what they're talking about... when they really need to know their history better!

[chamade216]

Yes! I completely agree. I read as much as I can, and I know that even Vierne altered the sound pretty much. I think Notre Dame organ was awesome from 1970-1990 , I like that manifestation of that instrument the most.

[codeman2008]

Exactly. So many people don't realize that Vierne made numerous alterations including replacing several ranks of reeds with less orchestral sounds.

[chamade216]

Do you have a complete list of the changes that Vierne had done to the organ? I didn't know of he reeds. I read that he wanted en chamades, bigger recit, there was a Vierne project that never happened but later Cochereau included many of Vierne's intention into his realisation.

[codeman2008]

From what I've read he made most of the alterations in 1902 and others in a 1932 renovation. The funding for the 1932 renovation came from Vierne's American concert tour. I'm searching, I can't find the page where I read about the reeds, but I distinctly recall reading that in one of the two above mentioned renovations he had a clarinet replaced with a krumhorn(?) and other ranks replaced to be more suitable for chorus rather than solo use.

[chamade216]

Thanks!!

[menschmaschine5]

@codeman2008 The funding did not come from Vierne's concert tour. It's true that Vierne did an American tour to raise money for the organ, but that money disappeared, partially because the French did not want to accept help from the Americans. Vierne also had a consultant from E.M. Skinner come to Notre Dame, but he never showed up in the loft. It's thought he was intercepted at the door by Charles Mutin or Marcel Dupre.

[polsterj]

@chamade216

Vierne made many changes, but he didn't change its character completely. The chorus reeds, as you can hear here, or the wonderful colsole with the barker action, the couplers and the jeux de combinasion.

[advisorC101]

@polsterj

The mechanical action and Cavaille-Coll console was the only thing left of the day when Vierne died on this organ. Now today, we will never have the oppertunity to pull the same stops Vierne did, to touch the same keys he did, to sit at the very same place where he took his last breath. Thanks to the ravages of taste, they turned a great organ into a good organ...

[ds1868]

Yes I agree with Chamade216, the Organ here is literally falling to pieces (apart from the sound, just look at the montre pipework as the camera pans up one of the central towers - fit for the scrap heap!) An interesting historical recording, but I agree the revisions from 1965 and the organ extant from 1970 until its ruination in 1990 is the best period for this instrument. And of course 1970-March 1984 best of all us PC was still with us!

[codeman2008]

I agree, after all the last restoration before this footage was taken was 55 (?) years prior, allot of wrong can happen to an organ like that in 55 years! And yes the organ Cochereau knew in the seventies and eighties was the best incarnation of this instrument to have existed in my opinion.

[VepresduCommun]

This material is unique. What a difference with the present console (ugly) and especially with the present sound (harsh and loud). I can only regret the modifications made in the second half of the twentieth century.

But, the more precious is this fragment!

[chamade216]

Hi, I don't think that the present console is ugly at all. The old console had to go however my favorite sound of this organ is from 1970-1990. Cochereau's sound. Moreover I would dare to say that Notre-Dame's organ is the world's number one organ and Cochereau was the no1. organists of all times. I don't think any organist can sound like him. He was unique with far superior piano technique and incredible imagination. On one hand he could stop the time on the other hand he could make an illusion

[chamade216]

i very much admire all 3 organists now and Yves Devernay aso. But my favorite is Lefebvre. He improvises as if you opened the the tap and like the water. His improvisation is just flowing and drifting away. Sorry for my opinion:-)

[igor49x]

Si cet orgue n'avait pas été restauré selon les goûts de PC, on n'aurait profiter que de 25% des prouesses d'improvisateur de ce génie! La facture doit s'adapter à la musique et non l'inverse!!

[codeman2008]

It actually sounds like a Cavaille-Coll in this recording! This is the newest recording I've heard where it even sounds like a Cavaille-Coll organ!

[tubamaxima]

Modifying works of art ( i.e. original console of Notre dame) to suit present needs of an organist is a bad thing. What would one say about re-coloring the Mona Lisa to suit todays tastes? I am strongly against this practice. To be fair, I would be in favor of two consoles, one modern , one original. It would be interesting to see who plays what first ?

I played St. Sulpice organ and found it to be easy to play - I would not think that changing it would improve anything.

[polsterj]

Hey, I use the "Mona Lisa-aspect" if I'm defending the st-sulpice organ! But I don't think we copied it from ourselves.

Thank god that the old console still exists, maybe it will control the organ one day again? I mean, why have they already removed it from the museum? I'd like to know what Latry, Lefebvre and Leguay think if they see it.

[CamilleCDC]

The Vierne console is now located in the southern tower of Notre Dame, precisely in the lobby giving access to the loft. The reason is that in the museum nearby NDP, some people have damaged or stollen the stops and the ivory of the manuels....

[tubamaxima]

The Cavaille-Coll Barker-lever action was replaced in many of his organs, except St. Denis and St. Sulpice. The Madeleine and St. Clotilde were changed, as was Notre-Dame. Too bad.

[advisorC101]

Its pathetic really! These are beautiful works of art that are altered so much simply because of the organists' tastes.

[peterewers]

Yes this is Cochereau: Colour, Rhythm, surprising movements - great video!! Many thanks to share this!

[8891randy]

Yes, that is improvisation. All the organists are trained to improvise a four-part fugue. The original Notre Dame console can be seen in the Museum of Notre Dame which is on a side street to the left of the cathedral. You can also see Vierne's manuscripts. Also, Sacre-Coeur has its original three manual terraced console. I sat with Naji Hakim as he played the Mass.

[chamade16]

Actually, the old console has now been removed from the Museum and is in the south west tower en route to the tribune

[tubamaxima]

The original Notre Dame console by Cavaille-Coll was replaced by a conventional draw-knob console. Although easier to play ( it had preset pistons to aid in registraion changes) it ruined the cavaille-Coll look.

St, Sulpice has a bigger Cavaille-Coll organ and they were smart enough to leave the original console in tact.

[keraulophone]

Dupré left his organ at St-Sulpice intact. The organ of Notre Dame was electrified because Dupré advised them to do so. Ain't that strange?!

[advisorC101]

They left the whole St.Sulpice Cavaille- Coll unaltered with the exception of two new pedal stops and the rearrangement of the manuals.

[codeman2008]

Is he improvising? If so, that's unbelievable, well since it's Cochereau I believe it! I agree with advisorC101, I like mechanical action better anyway! Such a gorgeous old console!

[advisorC101]

Thanks Cody

[advisorC101]

He's fantastic but I am very sad that Notre Dame's Cavaille-Coll organ has lost its original console. If only he decided to keep at least that. I hope they try and do something about that because its a waste to just leave it in a room.

[praisethelord333]

is it realy st sulpice?

[keraulophone]

It's Notre Dame cathedral.

[praisethelord333]

but it looks like st sulpice play tabel and totday they have another desing on notre dame. when did they chance?

[keraulophone]

Actually Cochereau is telling here that the original console is going to be replaced by an electric one. During the 1992 restauration this console was removed and replaced by a new console which looks quite similar.

[BeFrSc]

No, this is Notre-Dame

[prestant81]

Merci beaucoup!!

[chamade216]

Hi guys! If anyone happen to be a french speaking and would like to help me do the subtitle with the 'annotation editor' , please send me any translation with the timing, and I insert the translation into the video to the balck spaces. i suppose he speaks about how he'll change the insturement's console etc.