Oh and it won't be viable from heaven either do you actually think people would just sit there and watch people be tortured forever come on only a sadist would except this view I guess you like other peoples pain
Annihilationism is correct the wages of sin is death Gods wrath in its fullness Jesus died because of Gods wrath and it will be so with those who do not repent to Christ for salvation
THANK YOU!!! I completely agree with you 100%. That's why the Annihilation Theory is from the pit of hell. It's a damnable doctrine. Don't take chances with eternity! "Their worm dieth not" does not sound like a temporary setback to me.
Furthermore, how can people shrug their shoulders at the sacrifice Christ made at Calvary? Why would we even want to THINK about continuing to live in sin when He has done so much for us, and wants to do so much more?
@TotalDeadEnd you shouldn't its not biblical but even so you would think the prospect of living forever in bliss with God would dare i say far overcome the idea of a very painful death by burning would convince people its still just as bad just not as sadistic in fact the idea of eternal hell is what pushes people away I know I've see n it happen a lot
Fellow brothers and sisters! Let us be mindful of the traps of false doctrines!
Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Is the doctrine of eternal hell biblical? Or is it a doctrine of man which scripture SAID many would fall pray to?
Romans 3:4 "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged"
Malachi 4:1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."
Scripture is clear. They will be ashes under the soles of our feet.
2 Peter 2:6 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
What was the result of this eternal fire? The wicked were made into ashes.
The torment of the lost in an eternal burning hellfire will be a permanent monument to the justice of God?... Psalm 37:35-37 "I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."
He could NOT be found. Clearly if the torments of hell are VISIBLE for all eternity, he could be found correct?
The main verses to support annihilationism are Matthew10:28, Romans 6:23 and yes John 3:16. Read these verses for what they actually say, not what people have told you they say.
The verses you mentioned in Revelation 14 are talking about the Second Coming of Christ.
Smoke is a byproduct of something being burned not the actual object itself. What is being said is that the memory of their torment will always be remembered.
'Forever and ever' - in the Bible - does not mean 'never ending'. It simply means - 'until something has come to completion'. In other words - "until it is DONE!" The difference between the 'forever and ever' used in reference to Hell and in reference to Heaven is that in Hell 'things' DO come an end. The wicked will - eventually - exist no more. "It will be as if they never existed", the Bible tells us. In Heaven - there is no end. It goes on forever. God promises that the wicked will PERISH.
Anyway, that is the way to see and know all truth - to be mature. Completely separate and divide by the power of the Spirit good from evil - and one can see and know things one cannot see or know as long as one is "stuck" bluring good and evil together - not realizing God can destroy evil and remanifest holiness in the same person.
Anyway, it takes the Spirit to "unstuck us". I can't speak and have that happen. I can only sow the Word - and it's between you and the Lord. God is 100% good.
You know, I'm going to agree with you that we're each going to see according to the light God has given. AND, it's going to be very basically true that each will look at the other - and explain the difference in conclusion by saying, "You're using human reasoning". However, I can tell you that I came from an eternal torment position - then studied the case over a period of weeks - and gained clear conviction of the Holy Spirit of sanctification in truth with the fruits of the Spirit. Bless u
So until you see with God that man in the fallen state is totally depraved - and in Christ is perfectly holy as a new creation separate from the old creation... it's hard to see the truth of God in eschatology.
When this separation is perfectly divided asunder between good and evil - then, I tell you, you will see that the holy angels are completely separate and different persons and spirits from the unholy demons. Different person. (Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde). Blur the 2 & one cannot see, imo.
Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
When, by the Spirit, we perfectly separate good from evil we see as God sees as mature spiritually. Then we know all truth.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Any who are destroyed in the lake of fire are NOT the same "persons" who will be remanifested through Christ as a new creation. They are souls that are recreated - but with entirely new personhood as a new creation. See the separation and division between the old and the new to see as God sees.
If people project onto the holy angels that fell the spirit or character of the demons - it seems terrifying to suggest that the holy angels can be remanifested as evil is destroyed. But these are completely OPPOSITE and DIFFERENT spirits - thus persons. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Lucifer doesn't exist today in any manifest person. He ceased from existence when Satan came into being - as an opposite evil spirit. People get scared - but look - we are a new creation in Christ
As long as people are "stuck" blurring good and evil together - it seems "wrong" that God would completely destroy evil and then recreate anew. It seems "wrong" because ppl do not see as God sees - that good and evil are completely, totally separate and opposite. They have NOTHING to do with one another. God can destroy Satan and remanifest Lucifer in holy perfection as he was before the fall - with no contradiction. Terrifying to those who blur good & evil in their comprehension.
The sinful nature has an addiction to drama... and get's STUCK... in a position where it can only see evil. It cannot imagine that God's grace is greater than all our sin... really. Well, by God's grace... we get "unstuck" in our souls. We get a larger sense of God's grace and goodness. God will destroy Satan and the evil angels. Just like the old man is a different creation than the old man - even the demons are different creations than the holy angels they were. God divides good & evil.
Well, you don't have to react, really. If a person is truly centered in the Lord Jesus Christ, to me, I believe we see that God is Sovereign. We see that God is Perfect Love. God loves His enemies. God punishes sin, destroys evil, but just isn't like we imagine. He never truly "forgives" those who die in their sins - never truly "has mercy" on their evil natures... but rather He has perfect justice to destroy all evil. He loves PERSONS - and thus destroys their evil and recreates anew.
The lake of fire does not "commence" "eternal punishment" in final judgment.
RATHER, the lake of fire ENDS torment by total annihilation when all evil is cast therein.
HADES would have been "eternal torment" for all mankind. Jesus Christ died and rose again for all mankind SO THAT all mankind could be pulled OUT of Hades - and cast INTO the lake of fire in final judgment to be DESTROYED... and re-manifested, recreated anew, through His resurrected body.
Hebrews 2:17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.
Now, thru Christ, what could be achieved in the lake of fire to destroy Satan & the demons - all the evil of them - can now be also applied to all mankind who die in their sins thru the resurrected body of Christ.
This is the difference between Satan and the dmons and mankind. This is why the lake of fire was created for Satan and his angels - not mankind originally. The difference is that mankind never had a perfected spiritual body. For this cause the Father sent Jesus to die and rise.
Without Jesus Christ going to the cross in sinful flesh, then rising from the dead in a perfect spiritual body - for all mankind... the reprobate could not be destroyed in the lake of fire in relation to Satan - and remanifested in a perfect spiritual body through Christ.
What man thinks -- and the mind of God in Christ -- are 2 separate things. God's ways and thoughts are higher than our ways and thoughts.
You think God sent Jesus Christ to die for all mankind - and cannot restore all?
What's the difference between mankind and Satan and demons?? Mankind born of Adam was born of flesh - and NEVER HAD a perfect spiritual body. Satan and angels... DID... before the fall. So, fact is, God could destroy Satan and the demons and their former perfect selves would automatically "re-manifest". That's spiritual revelation. The human mind cannot see that to be true. But it is true. The lake of fire would destroy all evil - and remanifest those angels in a holy state by fire.
#1 - The lake of fire was sufficient, all by itself, to destroy Satan and his demons for whom the lake of fire was created.
#2 - However, the lake of fire was NOT sufficient to destroy the reprobate APART FROM the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. That's why Jesus' death on the cross destroyed Satan IN RELATION to mankind who fell into sin.
The lake of fire had power to destroy evil towards Satan and the demons - before Jesus died on the cross. Jesus didn't die to help Satan or demons.
That's not the Holy Spirit revealing spiritual truth to man. That's man using human reason to "fill in the blanks". It's human reason, also, to imagine from the position of God's Sovereignty that even though God created the lake of fire for Satan and his angels - that somehow God still plans to torture all the reprobate for time without end. There's no true spiritual revelation of the lake of fire in relaton to Satan and his angels or mankind in that understanding. The Bible doesn't say that.
I'm going to challenge your thinking. The Bible says that the lake of fire was created for Satan and his angels. People think they "know" what that means. They fill in the blanks with human reason to state this "proves" that God gave man free will - creation was out of His control and plan - and so this "proves" that man's choice on this earth determines that if he does not accept Christ, his "just sentence" is to join Satan in unending torment - though God never wanted man to suffer this.
Friend, that's exactly why Jesus Christ died. Had Jesus Christ not gone to the cross and died to sin - destroying Satan - then the ONLY thing that would have ever happened to all mankind would be, as I see it, eternal torment. Eternal torment is not "God's justice" being evidenced. Eternal torment was the plan of Satan in the Garden of Eden for all mankind. Jesus destroyed Satan on the cross so all torment could be ended in final judgment as all evil was destroyed. Satan=eternal torment
Case in point. A man is 20 yrs old. He has been raised as a slave in Africa to Muslims. He never had access to Christians around him. He heard about the Christian faith and Jesus. He didn't believe the gospel. He was beheaded by his Muslim slave owners at age 20. You're teling me that God - who is infinitely wise and loving - states that the just sentence for having been born into sin and unbelief - having failed to believe in those 20 years - is unending pain, torture, and torment?
Ezekiel 28:18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (Part 2)
Satan is completely annihilated and "never shalt" "be anymore".
I believe you are misinterpreting what Jesus said on the subject. Consider that even His disciples needed to be taken aside and told what the parables meant. Our natural minds can move to "fill in the blanks" between what we do and do not understand of what Jesus says. If you do not see that all evil is annihilated - then I would say that what you think is natural reason entering in to hold you in a position lacking illumination of the Word. The Bible says Satan is destroyed.
Also, a person has to make psychological "adjustments" to convince themselves that a person being tormented for all eternity is somehow "just". I mean, this is a very seriously tormenting doctrine and the human psyche must harden it's sensitivities in order to justify it to one's self. So, I would say to you that you have many shield built to shield yourself from acknowledging the cruelty of God which would be manifested by eternal torment - and they shield you also from knowing truth. Grace.
Ezekiel 28:16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. (Part 1)
Ezekiel 22:22As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
We must understand the furnace and the fire. It destroys evil... evil is melted until it is no more. Destruction of all evil results as the result of when Jesus throws people into the furnace in final judgment.
God's wrath fire melts, destroys evil, and purifies:
(Part 1) Ezekiel 22: 20As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. 21Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof.
Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
Jesus Christ paid for the destruction of Satan on the cross - stating that destruction will be completed. Satan is scheduled for annihilation. The terms "forever and ever" reference punishment mean until Satan & all evil is destroyed. There is no eternal torment.
1 Timothy 6:16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Hebrews 7:16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
The terms "forever and ever" are not defined. They refer back to whatever they describe. These words only mean "endless" and "immortal" when referring to God and that which is of His Spirit.
The term "forever" does not always mean eternal. e.g Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah is referring to his time in the fishes belly, was he in there "forever"?
the wicked will be destroyed forever, not tormented forever. their destruction will be remembered forever, the smokes ascension symbolizes that fact
Jonah 2:6 - he's saying he would have stayed down there forever if God hadn't brought him out.
more generally, God's revelation is progressive. so I think we need to be carful about developing doctrine for *today* from a time when God's revelation was not as full and complete as it is now..
I will make a video reply to WaitingforChrist shortly, looking at what Jesus had to say on the subject.
Isaiah 34 describes the destruction of Idumea (Edom) verse 10 describes the effects of Idumea's desctruction in this way " It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."
is the smoke from Idumea's desctruction still ascending today? Idumea (Edom)was located south of Juda and the Dead Sea.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Revelation 14:11 does not describe people burning for ever, it refers to the smoke of the eventual annihilation.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction is given to enhance our understanding of "eternal fire" or "eternal torment" Are those cities still burning today?
lazbo: "Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction is given to enhance our understanding of "eternal fire" or "eternal torment" Are those cities still burning today?"
I think the authour is saying that we should take S&G to be a picture of what will happen at the final judgement.
The OT has many such "foreshadowings" of realities in the NT.
In EVERY CASE of an OT forshadowing, the NT reality is greater than the shadow.
It is the same language that is used in the old testament predicting the destuction that happened 15 years later. This is apocalyptic language used all through the bible about a people that would lose out because of their actions. Make it a hell of eternity if you wish and atribute it to the God of all creation and say my salvation is not effected by my beliefs ?????
I should flesh out that statement really shouldn't I.
Revelation 5, says those worshiping God were "from every tribe, language and people"
And conversely
Revelation 13, authority was given the beast over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life
The white throne of judgment is for all the earth.
ok heathen!
timsh6 1 year ago
Oh and it won't be viable from heaven either do you actually think people would just sit there and watch people be tortured forever come on only a sadist would except this view I guess you like other peoples pain
christlover3000 1 year ago
Annihilationism is correct the wages of sin is death Gods wrath in its fullness Jesus died because of Gods wrath and it will be so with those who do not repent to Christ for salvation
christlover3000 1 year ago
You said "I dont think this is a salvation issue"....
Maybe not for YOU, but to the world, YES.
Annihilation makes people think, "oh, I think i can bear a short while of pain if I'm gonna be 'snuffed out' at the end"...
They wont see they URGENCY of coming to Christ.
And you are basically lying to them.... they'll have the biggest shock of their entire LIFE if they follow anihilationism.
doctorh2005 2 years ago
@doctorh2005
THANK YOU!!! I completely agree with you 100%. That's why the Annihilation Theory is from the pit of hell. It's a damnable doctrine. Don't take chances with eternity! "Their worm dieth not" does not sound like a temporary setback to me.
Furthermore, how can people shrug their shoulders at the sacrifice Christ made at Calvary? Why would we even want to THINK about continuing to live in sin when He has done so much for us, and wants to do so much more?
TotalDeadEnd 1 year ago
@TotalDeadEnd you shouldn't its not biblical but even so you would think the prospect of living forever in bliss with God would dare i say far overcome the idea of a very painful death by burning would convince people its still just as bad just not as sadistic in fact the idea of eternal hell is what pushes people away I know I've see n it happen a lot
christlover3000 1 year ago
@TotalDeadEnd Obadiah 1:15-16 says something else.
And If we ignore His spirit and don't love each other we can lose our salvation so a Christian has no reason to live in his sin anymore.
ieatstuffoffthefloor 1 year ago
Fellow brothers and sisters! Let us be mindful of the traps of false doctrines!
Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Is the doctrine of eternal hell biblical? Or is it a doctrine of man which scripture SAID many would fall pray to?
Romans 3:4 "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged"
katmariebokon 2 years ago
Malachi 4:1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."
Scripture is clear. They will be ashes under the soles of our feet.
katmariebokon 2 years ago
2 Peter 2:6 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
What was the result of this eternal fire? The wicked were made into ashes.
katmariebokon 2 years ago
Also worth mentioning...
Psalm 103: 9 "He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever."
Yet His mercy IS forever
Psalm 100:5 "For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."
katmariebokon 2 years ago
The torment of the lost in an eternal burning hellfire will be a permanent monument to the justice of God?... Psalm 37:35-37 "I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."
He could NOT be found. Clearly if the torments of hell are VISIBLE for all eternity, he could be found correct?
katmariebokon 2 years ago
Hi,
I made a detailed video on this subject:
watch?v=fJA2D9-lVr0
4096x 2 years ago
The main verses to support annihilationism are Matthew10:28, Romans 6:23 and yes John 3:16. Read these verses for what they actually say, not what people have told you they say.
The verses you mentioned in Revelation 14 are talking about the Second Coming of Christ.
Smoke is a byproduct of something being burned not the actual object itself. What is being said is that the memory of their torment will always be remembered.
rtmascioli 2 years ago
rtmascioli,
I think the "lake of fire" is a metaphore, as is the darkness.
I made a more detailed and direct video on the subject here:
watch?v=fJA2D9-lVr0
4096x 2 years ago
'Forever and ever' - in the Bible - does not mean 'never ending'. It simply means - 'until something has come to completion'. In other words - "until it is DONE!" The difference between the 'forever and ever' used in reference to Hell and in reference to Heaven is that in Hell 'things' DO come an end. The wicked will - eventually - exist no more. "It will be as if they never existed", the Bible tells us. In Heaven - there is no end. It goes on forever. God promises that the wicked will PERISH.
CanadaCraig 2 years ago
I made a detailed video on this subject, please watch it, then post that same comment again.
watch?v=fJA2D9-lVr0
4096x 2 years ago
Anyway, that is the way to see and know all truth - to be mature. Completely separate and divide by the power of the Spirit good from evil - and one can see and know things one cannot see or know as long as one is "stuck" bluring good and evil together - not realizing God can destroy evil and remanifest holiness in the same person.
Anyway, it takes the Spirit to "unstuck us". I can't speak and have that happen. I can only sow the Word - and it's between you and the Lord. God is 100% good.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Have you gone thru the gospels digging out the relevant verses?
Look at my response to WaitingForChrist.
I list all the verses. I'm finding it hard to draw a different conclusion.
while I see where you are coming from, I would say it's YOU who is using reasoning - I'm just going by what the text says.
4096x 2 years ago
You know, I'm going to agree with you that we're each going to see according to the light God has given. AND, it's going to be very basically true that each will look at the other - and explain the difference in conclusion by saying, "You're using human reasoning". However, I can tell you that I came from an eternal torment position - then studied the case over a period of weeks - and gained clear conviction of the Holy Spirit of sanctification in truth with the fruits of the Spirit. Bless u
graceexplosion 2 years ago
So until you see with God that man in the fallen state is totally depraved - and in Christ is perfectly holy as a new creation separate from the old creation... it's hard to see the truth of God in eschatology.
When this separation is perfectly divided asunder between good and evil - then, I tell you, you will see that the holy angels are completely separate and different persons and spirits from the unholy demons. Different person. (Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde). Blur the 2 & one cannot see, imo.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
When, by the Spirit, we perfectly separate good from evil we see as God sees as mature spiritually. Then we know all truth.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Any who are destroyed in the lake of fire are NOT the same "persons" who will be remanifested through Christ as a new creation. They are souls that are recreated - but with entirely new personhood as a new creation. See the separation and division between the old and the new to see as God sees.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
If people project onto the holy angels that fell the spirit or character of the demons - it seems terrifying to suggest that the holy angels can be remanifested as evil is destroyed. But these are completely OPPOSITE and DIFFERENT spirits - thus persons. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Lucifer doesn't exist today in any manifest person. He ceased from existence when Satan came into being - as an opposite evil spirit. People get scared - but look - we are a new creation in Christ
graceexplosion 2 years ago
As long as people are "stuck" blurring good and evil together - it seems "wrong" that God would completely destroy evil and then recreate anew. It seems "wrong" because ppl do not see as God sees - that good and evil are completely, totally separate and opposite. They have NOTHING to do with one another. God can destroy Satan and remanifest Lucifer in holy perfection as he was before the fall - with no contradiction. Terrifying to those who blur good & evil in their comprehension.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
The sinful nature has an addiction to drama... and get's STUCK... in a position where it can only see evil. It cannot imagine that God's grace is greater than all our sin... really. Well, by God's grace... we get "unstuck" in our souls. We get a larger sense of God's grace and goodness. God will destroy Satan and the evil angels. Just like the old man is a different creation than the old man - even the demons are different creations than the holy angels they were. God divides good & evil.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Well, you don't have to react, really. If a person is truly centered in the Lord Jesus Christ, to me, I believe we see that God is Sovereign. We see that God is Perfect Love. God loves His enemies. God punishes sin, destroys evil, but just isn't like we imagine. He never truly "forgives" those who die in their sins - never truly "has mercy" on their evil natures... but rather He has perfect justice to destroy all evil. He loves PERSONS - and thus destroys their evil and recreates anew.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
The lake of fire does not "commence" "eternal punishment" in final judgment.
RATHER, the lake of fire ENDS torment by total annihilation when all evil is cast therein.
HADES would have been "eternal torment" for all mankind. Jesus Christ died and rose again for all mankind SO THAT all mankind could be pulled OUT of Hades - and cast INTO the lake of fire in final judgment to be DESTROYED... and re-manifested, recreated anew, through His resurrected body.
The lake of fire destroys evil
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Hebrews 2:17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Hebrews 2:14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Now, thru Christ, what could be achieved in the lake of fire to destroy Satan & the demons - all the evil of them - can now be also applied to all mankind who die in their sins thru the resurrected body of Christ.
This is the difference between Satan and the dmons and mankind. This is why the lake of fire was created for Satan and his angels - not mankind originally. The difference is that mankind never had a perfected spiritual body. For this cause the Father sent Jesus to die and rise.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Without Jesus Christ going to the cross in sinful flesh, then rising from the dead in a perfect spiritual body - for all mankind... the reprobate could not be destroyed in the lake of fire in relation to Satan - and remanifested in a perfect spiritual body through Christ.
What man thinks -- and the mind of God in Christ -- are 2 separate things. God's ways and thoughts are higher than our ways and thoughts.
You think God sent Jesus Christ to die for all mankind - and cannot restore all?
graceexplosion 2 years ago
What's the difference between mankind and Satan and demons?? Mankind born of Adam was born of flesh - and NEVER HAD a perfect spiritual body. Satan and angels... DID... before the fall. So, fact is, God could destroy Satan and the demons and their former perfect selves would automatically "re-manifest". That's spiritual revelation. The human mind cannot see that to be true. But it is true. The lake of fire would destroy all evil - and remanifest those angels in a holy state by fire.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
#1 - The lake of fire was sufficient, all by itself, to destroy Satan and his demons for whom the lake of fire was created.
#2 - However, the lake of fire was NOT sufficient to destroy the reprobate APART FROM the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. That's why Jesus' death on the cross destroyed Satan IN RELATION to mankind who fell into sin.
The lake of fire had power to destroy evil towards Satan and the demons - before Jesus died on the cross. Jesus didn't die to help Satan or demons.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
That's not the Holy Spirit revealing spiritual truth to man. That's man using human reason to "fill in the blanks". It's human reason, also, to imagine from the position of God's Sovereignty that even though God created the lake of fire for Satan and his angels - that somehow God still plans to torture all the reprobate for time without end. There's no true spiritual revelation of the lake of fire in relaton to Satan and his angels or mankind in that understanding. The Bible doesn't say that.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
I'm going to challenge your thinking. The Bible says that the lake of fire was created for Satan and his angels. People think they "know" what that means. They fill in the blanks with human reason to state this "proves" that God gave man free will - creation was out of His control and plan - and so this "proves" that man's choice on this earth determines that if he does not accept Christ, his "just sentence" is to join Satan in unending torment - though God never wanted man to suffer this.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Friend, that's exactly why Jesus Christ died. Had Jesus Christ not gone to the cross and died to sin - destroying Satan - then the ONLY thing that would have ever happened to all mankind would be, as I see it, eternal torment. Eternal torment is not "God's justice" being evidenced. Eternal torment was the plan of Satan in the Garden of Eden for all mankind. Jesus destroyed Satan on the cross so all torment could be ended in final judgment as all evil was destroyed. Satan=eternal torment
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Case in point. A man is 20 yrs old. He has been raised as a slave in Africa to Muslims. He never had access to Christians around him. He heard about the Christian faith and Jesus. He didn't believe the gospel. He was beheaded by his Muslim slave owners at age 20. You're teling me that God - who is infinitely wise and loving - states that the just sentence for having been born into sin and unbelief - having failed to believe in those 20 years - is unending pain, torture, and torment?
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Ezekiel 28:18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (Part 2)
Satan is completely annihilated and "never shalt" "be anymore".
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Take a look at my response video to WaitingForChrist - I look in detail at what Jesus said on this subject.
4096x 2 years ago
Hi 4096x,
I believe you are misinterpreting what Jesus said on the subject. Consider that even His disciples needed to be taken aside and told what the parables meant. Our natural minds can move to "fill in the blanks" between what we do and do not understand of what Jesus says. If you do not see that all evil is annihilated - then I would say that what you think is natural reason entering in to hold you in a position lacking illumination of the Word. The Bible says Satan is destroyed.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Also, a person has to make psychological "adjustments" to convince themselves that a person being tormented for all eternity is somehow "just". I mean, this is a very seriously tormenting doctrine and the human psyche must harden it's sensitivities in order to justify it to one's self. So, I would say to you that you have many shield built to shield yourself from acknowledging the cruelty of God which would be manifested by eternal torment - and they shield you also from knowing truth. Grace.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
ok, i get what u r saying - but isn't it you who is using "human reasoning"
4096x 2 years ago
Ezekiel 28:16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. (Part 1)
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Ezekiel 22:22As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
We must understand the furnace and the fire. It destroys evil... evil is melted until it is no more. Destruction of all evil results as the result of when Jesus throws people into the furnace in final judgment.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
God's wrath fire melts, destroys evil, and purifies:
(Part 1) Ezekiel 22: 20As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. 21Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
Only God hath immortality and endless life.
Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
Jesus Christ paid for the destruction of Satan on the cross - stating that destruction will be completed. Satan is scheduled for annihilation. The terms "forever and ever" reference punishment mean until Satan & all evil is destroyed. There is no eternal torment.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
1 Timothy 6:16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Hebrews 7:16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
The terms "forever and ever" are not defined. They refer back to whatever they describe. These words only mean "endless" and "immortal" when referring to God and that which is of His Spirit.
graceexplosion 2 years ago
The term "forever" does not always mean eternal. e.g Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah is referring to his time in the fishes belly, was he in there "forever"?
the wicked will be destroyed forever, not tormented forever. their destruction will be remembered forever, the smokes ascension symbolizes that fact
lazbo4174 2 years ago
lazbo,
Jonah 2:6 - he's saying he would have stayed down there forever if God hadn't brought him out.
more generally, God's revelation is progressive. so I think we need to be carful about developing doctrine for *today* from a time when God's revelation was not as full and complete as it is now..
I will make a video reply to WaitingforChrist shortly, looking at what Jesus had to say on the subject.
4096x 2 years ago
let me know when you make the video and please expand on your interpretation of Jonah 2:6
lazbo4174 2 years ago
Isaiah 34 describes the destruction of Idumea (Edom) verse 10 describes the effects of Idumea's desctruction in this way " It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."
is the smoke from Idumea's desctruction still ascending today? Idumea (Edom)was located south of Juda and the Dead Sea.
lazbo4174 2 years ago
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Revelation 14:11 does not describe people burning for ever, it refers to the smoke of the eventual annihilation.
lazbo4174 2 years ago
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction is given to enhance our understanding of "eternal fire" or "eternal torment" Are those cities still burning today?
lazbo4174 2 years ago
lazbo: "Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction is given to enhance our understanding of "eternal fire" or "eternal torment" Are those cities still burning today?"
I think the authour is saying that we should take S&G to be a picture of what will happen at the final judgement.
The OT has many such "foreshadowings" of realities in the NT.
In EVERY CASE of an OT forshadowing, the NT reality is greater than the shadow.
I do not expect this to be an exception.
4096x 2 years ago
Hell is eternal.Good video!
LuvsMusic2 2 years ago
If hell is "eternal", then why does it get cast into Gehenna in Revelation?
Shalom & Ahavah
theheat151 2 years ago
Daniel 12:2 Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
FillTheirVoid 2 years ago
It is the same language that is used in the old testament predicting the destuction that happened 15 years later. This is apocalyptic language used all through the bible about a people that would lose out because of their actions. Make it a hell of eternity if you wish and atribute it to the God of all creation and say my salvation is not effected by my beliefs ?????
huckster271 2 years ago
Revelation is not just about apostate Israel.
4096x 2 years ago
I should flesh out that statement really shouldn't I.
Revelation 5, says those worshiping God were "from every tribe, language and people"
And conversely
Revelation 13, authority was given the beast over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life
The white throne of judgment is for all the earth.
4096x 2 years ago