Lambeth: Rowan Williams Draws a Line on Episcopal Church

[streets2apostle]

Christ Jesus died for all sinners. That is true. The Gospel is all inclusive in that is calls for all to come and repent, and serve the Lord. The righteousness of GOD, however, is very much so exclusive, saying that one MUST not only conform, but be transformed into the image of Christ and have the mind of Christ. Was Christ;'s mind homosexual? NOT AT ALL!

[pimaggot]

The troubling thing is that Rowan Williams in his book on theology states that he believes that homosexuality is not a sin and goes into detail explaining the verses in the epistles condemning it. Yet here he is playing politics-if his true beliefs are that it is not a sin that means that he is prejudice against them and is seeking the easy way out - the politically expedient way - instead of taking up the cross he is nailing the nails.

[kuehling83]

yay. Score one for church politicians! He could have saved us all 5 minutes and just said:

"Let me demonstrate how to sit on the fence and do nothing with myself! For my white necklace and purple robe are just for good looks afterall."

[Robot676767]

I have no particular hatred of homosexuals, and if a given church wants to welcome and affirm them, they're within their rights to do so. But we also need to remember that there are those that, while not bigots, are just not comfortable with that kind of behavior due to its being disapproved of in scripture. Forcing a church to ordain female or homosexual priests/bishops/etc. is equally as oppressive as forcing another church to NOT do so. Can't we all just get along and let the other be?

[XXXR84]

He is turning into Clement the VII. Ironic twist in Anglicanism!

[50heaven]

Why argue over something that should be black and white? THE WORD OF GOD says that homosexuality is an abomination! Thats just it.

[elton1981]

@50heaven I depends on what one means by "the workd of God" The Bible also says that we can't eat shellfish. If you're going to be fundamental at least be fundamental about all of it and then you may just realize that Christ's Sacrifice renders the ancient law redundant. Et antiquium documentum novo cedat rituii

[minckminck]

I understand the need to emote about how the rest of the Communion does not accept TEC's positions on gay bishops. Please know though that there is much more at stake here - the Presiding Bishop of TEC has denied the resurrection and the divinity of Christ (by saying both of these are unimportant and replaceable, which is inherently part of both of these teachings). I would advise you forget about the gay arguments and focus on Christ in a church that is focused on Christ.

[kentingtonallen]

With all due respect to the pastoral office of the Archbishop of Canterbury, this particular individual is one of the most significantly ill-informed, inarticulate, and purposefully ignorant bigots I've encountered in the whole of the so-called Anglican Communion. Hurray for the leadership of the ECUSA and the outstanding opposite of the Canterbury "TAIL", The ECUSA's Most Reverend Presiding Bishop!

[merlynskydragonheart]

I also believe that Sodom and Gamora (obviously spelled wrong, excuse that) were destoryed by God not for homosexuality but for the worshiping of false gods. Sex in the pagan culture is the ultimate form of raising energy, which is their keen source of power. The male figure natually has more energy then the female, thus, two males together makes more energy then a man and a women. God saw so much sin because he originally didn't want anyone to worship another god then him, thus he destoryed it.

[tlh215]

Did Christ die only for straight people? White people? Whole and healthy people? Wealthy people? Anglo-Saxons? Bishops? Corporate CEOs?

Would you push everyone out who doesn't fit the "acceptable" image?

[Shanniquitie]

Christ died for everybody because everybody is a sinner. Don't get it twisted.

[tlh215]

Why not have a litmus test for people before they are baptized? Because if you baptize someone, that is the first step or "intiation" if you will, into the mystery o Christian life. If the Church does not wish for certain people to take holy orders or become bishops, then don't baptize them to begin with.

I say, once baptized, that's it. They're in. And baptism gives them the authority they need to do all those things.

[Shanniquitie]

that's a very ignorant remark, and betrays a complete lack of knowledge when it comes to the sacramental nature of baptism

[xpo50]

If you look at his earlier work you would realize that Rowan Williams is completely pro gay marriage.

the bible does not criticise homosexuals it criticises heterosexuals who deviate from their sexuality

[whitakerj]

It is a silly argument to say the bible is criticizing heterosexuals that deviate.  It is critical of homosexual acts. It is clear that the acts are immoral and that the Church is immoral for endorsing such behavior.

[EmpressOfWyoming58]

@whitakerj If it is so clear, then why does Jesus not mention homosexuality? Not even once, does Christ ever it. Think about it.

[tlh215]

I mean, the UUs are nice people, but they've totally thrown the baby out with the bathwater and they're mostly atheists.

Not everyone wants that. Why should people be forced into that?

[tlh215]

It's very sad to me that there seems to be no church at all, except for the Unitarian Universalists, who openly welcome gay people.

That is just - pathetic to me. It is so disappointing. It tells me that Christ does not love all unconditionally, and all this talk of "grace" is and always has been a lie.

And I'm not even gay.

[CAndiron]

Why do you assume that 'loving unconditionally' means 'approving of people's sins'? Will you please consider the possibility that perhaps you have been *conditioned* into believing it, and that you have not arrived at that conclusion by rational thought? If a parent loves his/her child, will he/she unconditionally support anything that child does, even if that child becomes a drug dealer or pornographer or leaves his family to shack up with someone else? Please be willing to think or rethink it.

[tlh215]

CAndiron: quit stalking me.

Unconditional love is just that: unconditional.

I've already met someone (a UU woman) whose husband was a death row inmate; he was in for murder. A brain tumor that he chose to not treat claimed his life before the state got to him.

Could you love like that?

If so, why don't you?

And why the hell are you stalking me all over youtube? Get a life, please!

[tlh215]

CAndiron: you ARE talking to someone who left (parental) home to shack up with someone else. My parents have not turned their back on me or withdrawn their love for me.

Grace by definition is unconditional. If conditions are attached, it isn't grace.

[tlh215]

CAndiron: since when did love have anything to do with "rational thought"?

It is an emotion. It is not subject to the realm of "rational thought." It isn't supposed to be.

There is far more to life than :just: "rational thought". There is the heart life too. Have you forgotten about that? Doesn't the Scripture talk about that - that if I have all knowledge, but have not love, it's all worthless...

[minckminck]

tlh215, lots of churches openly welcome gay people. The Anglican Communion does - see Lambeth 1.10

[bimboblacky]

Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches, founded by the Rev. Elder Troy Perry in 1967 (originally Pentecostal Holiness Church preacher!!!) This is indeed a CHRISTIAN denomination, and has been growing slowly *BUT* surely ever since. Secondly, the United Churches of Christ openly welcome and affirm (all the way through ordination and Holy Union ceremonies) all GLBT people now.

[darknight4200]

Ummmm.... what are you talking about?  ELCA, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, some Baptists...

[nicksum29]

He means that it is not merely a human rights question. It is a spiritual necessity that ALL people be included in the Church. Wise man.