Defending Constantine & persecution of the early Christians

[blattt188]

The title should be "Defending Illuminati and all the evils that comes out of it."

[2prongRHINO]

as yourself this,. although we free souls are already certain you who are RAISED groomed on this ill evolution of LATIN tribe aligned blood sprinkling,. ignorance as something,. JOINABLE, worthy of,. free souls,. LIVES,. being subjected to payments,. and BELIEF,. that PAR,. with others as well,. ignorant,. evolved from delusion of early multi tongued CREATURES-human..

IF,. it is obvious the gift is Life, given by this some call god,. then WHY,. propose any living join these ORGS MURDERING LIFE?

[CatholicCrusader2000]

Thanks for the book recommendation/review. As a history buff who has been doing some reading on Byzantium lately I shall have to check this one out.

[politicaltourist]

Thank you for this excellent video. I once watched an ex baptist preacher who converted to islam and stated that one of the reasons he did that was the supposed ill character of Saint Constantine. he was spreading a lot of slander. It is mind boggling how people who wouldn't believe a word they hear on the radio or read in the newspaper (and often with good reason!) choose to brand slander from dubious sources on events that took place 1,700 years ago as "fact"...

[MapleAnglican]

David, have the amount of bookshelves you have increased?

[davidpwithun]

@MapleAnglican Yes, they are constantly increasing!

[MapleAnglican]

@davidpwithun As long as it doesn't become a fire hazard.

[davidpwithun]

@MapleAnglican To tell the truth, it probably already is... I don't even have enough shelf space for all of my books :P

[MapleAnglican]

@davidpwithun I seem to recall a similar comment I made that if the Base Fire Marshal found out he would require a special sprinkler system be installed in your house.

[LogosTheos]

@davidpwithun, I know you got J.N.D. Kelly Early Christian Doctrine back there right?

[NicholasMyra]

In any case, this current discussion is irrelevant to the topic. My point was that historians do not argue for an instant conversion experience. They also do not argue that Constantine did not have Christian sympathies throughout his life after his vision, or around the time of the Battle of Milvan Bridge, and that this sympathy grew deeper over time.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra Mate, you said we have letters from Constantine, you are making this stuff up off the top of your head. Try and give factual information.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Read Eusebius.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra I have.  Letters from Constantine, that's good stuff, I'll have to remember that one, that's hilarious. Have to keep my eye on you. Okay, so we both think he used Christianity as a political tool to govern a corrupt empire, high 5.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb I'm looking at a letter right now, buddy.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra You haven't happened to read the book he suggests here already have you? Let's just pretend you think that for the time being.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Defending Constantine? No.

But I did read the Edict of Milan.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb I don't really think that, bro.

[NicholasMyra]

Would it be possible for you to stop being petty?

[dadaa16]

ETHIOPIA: Secret Holy Land PART 1 OF 5 see on uyoutube

[NicholasMyra]

I think you need to familiarize yourself with traditional Roman territories. Read a little about Marcus Aurelius, Trajan, Hadrian, etc.

You also need to familiarize yourself with Historic Christianity and stop comitting gross anachronisms. Unlike Evangelical-esque "conversion experiences", Constantine did not "become a Christian" and "use the teaching of Jesus" to fight his wars after his vision.

And cut the sass.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra He used the Chi symbol on all of his armies shields, if he was a real Christian convert he probably should have followed the teachings of Christ no? Bit hard to say I'm definitely a Christian but I'll just ignore everything he said. He did have a conversion experience, not sure what you are talking about.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb I'm trying to understand the syntax of what you said here. 1. He used the Chi Rho symbol on his armies' shields. Ok, I agree with that.

If he was a Christian convert he should have followed Christ; yeah, I agree with that. But Constantine wasn't a Christian after his vision.

"He did have a conversion experience"; well, he didn't. He had a vision. He converted very slowly. You are projecting 19th century American Protestantism onto a 4th Century Roman Emperor.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra You don't know how Constantine converted, you couldn't possibly know, not like he had a diary. I would think making Catholicism the state religion would be a pretty big step in him converting, your argument is that he was just using Christianity for political gain which I would agree with, so I think we both agree actually and you just don't know it.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb

1. Constantine didn't make "Catholicism" the state religion. That was Emperor Theodosius several decades later toward the end of the 4th Century, when he made Nicene Orthodoxy the state religion of the Empire.

2. We know a lot about Constantine because historians have access to several of his letters, contemporary accounts of his activity, etc. We see a gradual change during his lifetime. We do not see an instantaneous conversion to Christianity. No modern historian does.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra You are right he didn't make it the state religion, he just promoted Christianity.

2. "There are no surviving histories or biographies dealing with Constantine's life and rule - Bleckmann, "Sources for the History of Constantine"

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Okay... but that's... false.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra Where is your PhD from?

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra That guy has a PhD and it is in his book. He probably checked into it. Show me otherwise.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Bleckmann isn't wrong. Your prooftext and its implications are.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra Do go on...

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Bleckmann doesn't deny the existence of contemporary accounts of Constantine's activity. He doesn't deny the validity of the letters included in Eusebius's accounts. He doesn't deny Constanine's arch. Your prooftext is designed to imply that we are dealing with quite sparse data.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra An arch gives us insight on when he converted to Christianity? Eusebius doesn't give a very detailed account of his life and if it did you would have to say he converted quite early in his reign. Where does Eusebius question his reported conversion?

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb

You are projecting something onto Eusebius's account of Constantine's "conversion" that is not there. You are projecting a knowledge of the Christian God, Christian doctrine, Christian ecclesiology.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra You are projecting from his account he didn't convert, that is your only source, you don't know from that source and the rest you just made up, are you done wasting time?

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb What you mean by "conversion" is a protestant-esque conversion experience to Christianity. That is not what Eusebius portrays. No modern historian agrees with your contention otherwise.

[NicholasMyra]

I am not arguing that Constantine only used Christianity for political gain. Politics was part of his motivation, but we also see a genuine interest that becomes developed over his lifetime, culminating in his baptism and entombment in a Christian church.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb The conversion of Constantine is a very interesting and complex topic. You are not doing it justice by trying to fit it into a modern box.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra If you are saying Constantine wasn't a convert but pretended to be for political gain which it seems you are then we are both saying the same thing and you are a fool.

[XDragasesX]

What people fail to remember Constantine is just a man, like all of us. He was kept prisoner by Diocletian in Nicomedia in fear of his life, very similar to the way Caligula was kept by Tiberius. We know how that turned out. The only difference is Constantine escaped to a father/mother that still lived. We don't know how that can scar someone. Norwich's history of Byzantium should be read, he explains Gibbon's vendetta and the western conspiracy of silence against Constantine and the East.

[XDragasesX]

@XDragasesX ...not Nicomedia, Dalmatia. ugh sorry...thinking of Eusebius' See.

[UnoRaza]

ps: This was very interesting, thanks!

[adrenacrumb]

If it does admit to that, which it should since that is established history in the Christian tradition, how does it explain his claim him and 10,000 other people saw the symbol and after his true conversion and reading Jesus talking about peace and loving your neighbor he actually believed that meant to go kill a bunch of people for him?

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Please stop trolling, sis.

[adrenacrumb]

You would in fact have to say one of the most important Church Fathers in Christianity, Eusebius, was a liar to get around that.

[UnoRaza]

@adrenacrumb Is it true Eusibius is the only outside confirmation/corroboration of "Jesus" Christ?

I wonder why we have outside confirmation of John The Baptist, but not of someone of Christ's stature?

[adrenacrumb]

@UnoRaza No, I meant he confirmed that Constantine had told him he and his soldiers saw a chi symbol in the sky in battle and took that as being from Jesus. What do you mean outside confirmation of John the Baptist?

[UnoRaza]

@UnoRaza Other nobles wrote of John the Baptist, yet not of "Jesus"?

Also, was Constantine rather arbitrary about the gospels chosen and why was gnosis hidden from view of all but the gnostic Christians? (ie. The Cathars were the last formal group to acknowledge this FACT/potential eventuality of our spirituality.)

IMHO, the reason are the effects/knowledge of this event and what it does to you on a large scale would put a crimp in their war mongering.

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza Constantine didn't choose the bible canon. Council of Nicea didn't have anything to do with choosing the bible canon.

[UnoRaza]

@NicholasMyra That's not where they sliced and diced the gospels? (One of several.)

Where did they drop some of those found in Nag Hammadi that had the ring of Christ?

(Where's the text that speaks of gnosis? Or is it misinterpreted somewhere?)

The references to "Her" relating to wisdom in Psalms is the closest I've found and this is consistent.

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza Let's slow down for a minute, okay?

No Gospels were dropped; the so-called Gnostic gospels all post-date the Canonical gospels, and were written by particular strains of platonistic dualists. I believe even Dr. Bart D. Ehrman affirms this fact. The early Fathers of the Church, like John the Evangelist and Ignatius of Antioch in the 1st and 2nd century, and Irenaeus in the 2nd and 3rd century, rejected these teachings as innovations.

[NicholasMyra]

I will now quote from the Gnostic pseudo-gospel of Thomas, which refers to women and femininity in the typical Gnostic fashion:

"Simon Peter said to them, 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.'

Jesus said, 'Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

[UnoRaza]

@NicholasMyra Thanks for that.

While I did refer to the Nag texts I could not tell you which one, if any, defines the main point which is gnosis itself.

Gnostic Christianity seems to be deliberately misinterpreted as what I read from mainstream sources does not match what was found at their source; women are not unequal as they are in Christianity. They reject the Old testament genocide as unChristian.

As the Cathars had female priests that text seems inconsistent.

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza The Cathars weren't really in continuity with early Gnostic groups. They come from Manichaen Gnosticism, which is distinctly dualistic and does not give equal rights to women. If the Cathars had women priests, which I doubt, they were an anomaly. Most gnostic groups believed women are imperfect pseudo-men.

And they didn't reject Old Testament genocide; rather, they rejected the God of the Old Testament entirely. These are not the same thing.

[UnoRaza]

@NicholasMyra The gnostics recognize the divine feminine which does happen to be a fact of our spirituality regardless of any texts; this fact is revealed during gnosis when your male ego is being HACKED to pieces.

(It's a good thing. ;D)

For some reason the Abrahamics, I was raised Baptist, btw, had this removed/hidden from the masses as even being a potentiality of this human domain.

I look forward to seeing your other materials; thanks again!

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza The Gnostics didn't recognize a Divine Feminine that was equal to the "perfection of masculinity" they inherited from Hellenistic beliefs. I think they had a Holy Wisdom concept that was less personal than Nicene Orthodoxy, but wasn't any more feminine or deep.

Nobody identifying themselves as gnostics believed in femininity over masculinity, until new age people adopted what they called Gnosticism over the past couple centuries.

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza I'm sorry to hear that a lot of information and wisdom was removed from your Baptist upbringing. You'll be happy to find that the Orthodox Church has a thriving and rich mystical tradition that affirms the spiritual equality of women in Christ (see St. John Chrysostom's Homilies on Genesis, for example).

[UnoRaza]

@NicholasMyra " Orthodox Church has a thriving and rich mystical tradition that affirms the spiritual equality of women in Christ"

Thank you so much for the reply!

Is this "mystical tradition" written of somewhere?

One wonders why this has to be kept "mystical" and is not mainstream; although occult would be more accurate. (Meaning hidden not 'evil'.)

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza Actually, in the Orthodox Church, it is mainstream.

 The Western Roman Catholic tradition rejected a lot of mystical tradition because of certain scholastic trends, and the protestant reformation inherited this trend. This did not happen in the East.

[UnoRaza]

@NicholasMyra "The Western Roman Catholic tradition rejected a lot of mystical tradition..."

I was 'told' by Source or God or WHATEVER you call this AMAZING GRACE, [God works very well], that "Humpty Dumpty" tells a very important story in this regard; seems to fit quite nicely.

The BEST news is there's no reason to fear regardless of what happens; 'death' is the BIG LIE as 'life' gets better not worse hereafter IF YOU PLAY YOUR CARDS CORRECTLY and the 'Final Cut' is on as we speak.

[FullContactCMA]

@UnoRaza I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I think you need to unpack your thoughts a little.

[UnoRaza]

@FullContactCMA It's metaphorical, draw out the symbols.

Egg on a wall (some images even show a fake mustache):

Symbol capable of giving birth held in high regard: Divine feminine

(PUSHED of the 'wall' btw.)

Ever hear of corporate compartmentalization also used in defense work?

That's how the truth was kept secret for so long; it's spread around the world and only in one place in very small, obscure, usually 'heretical' groups.

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza I don't think any evidence exists for those claims.

[UnoRaza]

@N Besides logic and history , I trust?

What did happen to the Divine feminine that was the norm until the Levite priests ASSEMBLED the Torah "for political purposes".

You don't see the difference between the voice/theme of the Old/New testaments evidence of some major HACKING?

Why do other "Christs" exist, throughout history, with very similar properties/beliefs that, coincidentally of course, tie directly to our hearts, if not DNA?

Why are they and their IDENTICAL Truths rejected?

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza I don't think history supports the things you've said here about a Judaic patriarchy overthrowing some mythical fertility goddess cult.

[tetrahydroscope]

@UnoRaza Identical truths? Oh Come on....

[NicholasMyra]

It is written in the writings of the Church Fathers, the saints of the desert, and the holy hesychasts, to name a few places.

Not to mention the Gospel of John.

[UnoRaza]

@NicholasMyra Thanks very much! Cannot wait to read these texts and have already pulled them up.

Is it nice having the "Great Library" almost back? ;D) Love to get my hands on those that called the destruction of Alexandra; what a travesty.

I've also learned the Catholics have a 'mystical' sect somewhere and this too is good news;

although Mary and how she's adored as the "Mother of God" does happen to fit very well.

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza To be fair, Caesar's biographers claim the Library of Alexandria was accidentally destroyed by fire.

The Catholics do have "mystical" sects here and there, yes.

[NicholasMyra]

By "mystical" I did not mean to imply "hidden" "occult" or "concealed".

[XDragasesX]

@UnoRaza just to but in here, you mentioned being raised Baptist. I was originally from an Anglican background but then my family went to Baptist because we attended my Uncle's Church which was Baptist. I even went to a Christian High School - very strict....no I very happy being an Eastern Orthodox...I have true peace for the first time. what do you follow now, if you feel like answering.....

[UnoRaza]

@XDragasesX No problem. IMHO, Freemasonry Luciferianism is what happened to the tradition in the West and I THOUGHT it was Constantine, but am apparently wrong on this, but it was very early.

I've been on a sort of adventure checking out everything ELSE; Sikhism too seems to be close to the truth although the 'hair' thing is a difficult in the west. (It is a natural phase of gnosis, however, as one realizes how we're 'fixing God's work' which is sort of hysterical when it occurs to you.)

[FullContactCMA]

@UnoRaza Freemasonry is a deistic fraternal organization which has no connection to ancient occult practices.

[UnoRaza]

@FullContactCMA When you say occult do you mean hidden?  They sure use all the appropriate symbols and structures that seems to indicate otherwise.

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza I was referring to occult as in certain forms of paganism, satanism, spiritism, mediumism, etc. The Freemasons are a group that began as a fine masonry union, and turned into a secret parlor society during the Enlightenment. It is not associated with occultism, except in the minds of conspiracy theorists.

[tetrahydroscope]

@NicholasMyra The freemasons have no connection to the occult whatsoever? Thats pretty ridiculous sounding, but I would love to believe it.

[aphidjonesesq]

@tetrahydroscope

All you have to do is renounce the insanity of conspiracy theories.

[tetrahydroscope]

@aphidjonesesq I guess I will have to renounce everything I read about occultism as well. So I guess The Secret Teachings of All Ages and Blatvatsky's Secret Doctrine were made to be burnt in a fireplace or something.

[aphidjonesesq]

@tetrahydroscope If I owned either of those books, I'd burn them, yeah. Or keep them away from easily-brainwashed people.

[tetrahydroscope]

@aphidjonesesq Well I am glad to finally realize that symbology means nothing!

[aphidjonesesq]

@tetrahydroscope Is this the part where I say "what symbology?" and you list a bunch of B.S. about snakes, owls, ba'al, george the gopher god of kathmandu, solomon's temple, the pyramids, etc?

[tetrahydroscope]

@aphidjonesesq I can tell that by now, the best one could get out of Blavatsky is understanding the influence Theosophy had on the third Reich. I don't need to list anything to recognize that symbolic is an indication that Freemasonry is an indirect descendant of the mystery religions of Mesopotamia. But yeah, dominant minorities never seek to stay dominant without the appearance of dominance.

[aphidjonesesq]

@tetrahydroscope Blavatsky was a forger, fraudster, racist and lunatic. Her writings are good for nothing other than kindling and comedy routines.

[NicholasMyra]

@UnoRaza A concept of Holy Wisdom was never rejected by the Orthodox Church. The most famous Imperial church, Agia Sophia, is named after it. Wisdom of Solomon, a secondary canon book in the Nicene Orthodox Church, speaks extensively about the Wisdom of God, which is sometimes given feminine qualities.

[adrenacrumb]

Have to check that book out, certainly never heard anyone say anything good about Constantine. Is it claiming Constantine never said he saw a symbol from Christ and he didn't claim he came to him in a dream and told him to wear it in battle to slay his enemies because I think that is pretty well documented.

[davidpwithun]

@adrenacrumb I'd suggest checking it out. :) There's a lot of problems with your statements here. I hope you keep following my series on early Christian history and read the links and book recommendations I give...

[adrenacrumb]

@davidpwithun I was going to check it out I was just wondering if it specifically addressed that point.

[davidpwithun]

@adrenacrumb Yes, he discusses it.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb You're spot on until you said "to slay his enemies".

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra He said Jesus told him in a dream if the army wore the symbol they would always win in battle so I don't see how slay your enemies is that far off.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Sometimes the enemy just ran away. Read Eusebius's Historia Ecclesiastica Books IIV-X, not just the anti-theistic internet quotes you get off of neo-marxist sites.

Besides, fallen interpretations don't make the message.

[NicholasMyra]

@NicholasMyra My mistake, I meant to write VII-X.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra Okay, so you are telling me that the prince of peace told him to murder people to spread his empire? Guy, he took over entire countries, they didn't all just run away, get real.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb I didn't say all. And no, he didn't tell Constantine to murder people. Constantine didn't murder people, he did typical pagan king stuff like conquer territory and send soldiers to fight and often kill other soldiers.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra His army killed 40,000 just during the civil war with Maxentious. They killed over 100,000 Goths. All just starters to what he did. You don't sound like you believe Constantine was a real convert anyway so I'm not sure why you are arguing.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Unlike the hypotheses of 19th century evangelical protestantism, historic Christian conversion usually took time.

I never denied Constantine's armies killed people, sis, although I wonder where you got those particular numbers.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb You aren't getting it. You have two pagan emperors killing each other. One was supposedly sympathetic to Christians. Jesus anointed that pagan emperor to serve his purposes by granting him the victory that would have gone, inevitably, to one of the two contenders. There is no kill order here. There is interference in a fallen system playing itself out for the greater salvation of mankind.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra You don't get it, he claimed to follow a guy who said love your enemies and killed hundreds of thousands of people who weren't even bothering him using his name while doing it.

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Weren't even bothering him?

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra Well the Goths were coming after him but he also fought Alamanni, Franks, Visigoths, and Sarmatians and expanded the empire. Not bothering him as in not attacking first.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra Go pick up a history book, they tend to be helpful in these matters.

[adrenacrumb]

@NicholasMyra If it was really Jesus don't you think it would have been something more along the lines of stop killing people to spread your empire?

[NicholasMyra]

@adrenacrumb Jesus is the I AM of the Tanakh and Torah, remember? He achieves His merciful purposes through fallen secular kings all the time.

"Thus says the LORD to Cyrus [the Great], His anointed,

Whom I have taken by the right hand,

To subdue nations before him

And to loose the loins of kings;

To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut" -Isaiah 45