Listen : John Cage - a buttle of coca-cola -02

[windstorm1000]

Its amazing all the people who say they don't like John Cage's music--and yet there over 60.000 hits here--and thousands more on other sites of him. Somebody must not be telling the truth! Its going to look very silly for all these Europeans to adore Cage when his most of his own country men won't get their ears out of their asses.

[Valkyriefury]

@windstorm1000 I like him for what he's discovered, not what he's created. It's like he's invented the hammer and chisel, but can't carve anything but mediocre statues.

[WBWWproductionz]

@Valkyriefury

??????!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!

[guypie]

At fist i criticized this man, but if you look deeper, he is a genius!

[siprit82]

there's a lot of sadness in what he says.

[GanoMaganza]

is this an american accent? That sounds kinda french

[Ematched]

@GanoMaganza He's from Los Angeles, CA, but he lived most of his life in New York.

[smiexx]

02:50 I love this recording

[lukosius1221]

his thoughts about wanting to forget smth that you have already seens or heard could be easily adjusted for Lady Gaga's music lol

People want so much to forget her songs that they just listen a lot of her music in order to forget the past music she has created lol

[dragonmoony]

beautiful words

[Gargantupimp]

This is the worst State Farm commercial I've ever seen.

[marksamuelsoncable]

@Gargantupimp No comment ever, has made me laugh harder.

[Marmalade000000]

I liked the Coca Cola bottle analogy... that was interesting

[samsterjamster111]

incredible being.

[thesir27]

remember in high school when you had to bullshit an essay? that is what John Cage did in life

[theknightmarlowe]

@thesir27 Hmmm... Seen this comment somewhere before... ;)

If you don't like what he says, then don't listen. Just don't tell us that we're all wrong in believing him, cos we're not.

[DarkZekeX]

@thesir27 ohoho... you're an ass.

[estevancarlos]

@thesir27 bullshit is deserving of a smile and grin.

[q28s1]

He has an amazing mind.

[AnUUb1s]

john cage is my boyfriend

[jamesarongray]

this guys a bit of a genius i think

[Glutenovsky]

@jamesarongray A bit? HE IS TOTALLY A GENIUS!

[binwegaufgig]

fake

[gillzisrockin]

he... is.... HIGH right now but that's coo.

[yoyopro]

Can not say enough about him - - I can only dream that I can be

[unclelez]

Do Your Thing! :)

[estevancarlos]

hero.

[nincompop]

amazing.

[Haeronthegreat]

Fascinating insights.

[enkibumbu]

He was gay. This is an insightful comment.

[hakuga05]

what an amazing person he was.

[bitachar]

amazing about Cage how simple things become important

[MrPrezidentCS]

thats ridicolous, if you worry about something so simple how does anything get done?

I mean there is beauty in everything but...come on.

[SupernaturalFreakxo]

Life is not about getting things done, it's about experiencing them getting done, and he has done a lot.

[genericusername1]

he doesnt even seem to have a grip on what he believes in. IT honestly seems like he's just trying to be different to be different. Fartpoop.

[AmosPressley]

It's a living.

[jorsitoh]

NO HAY UNA VERSION SUBTITULADA??

[cricachina]

i want something i dont yet know

[fantasticplasticluc]

Autre petite chose encore : je ne danse pas plus aux concerts de rock que pour le classique, étant souvent très occupé à écouter. Je crois peu qu'il y ait de différence fondamentale : è sempre musica. Cf entre autres Bartok, Britten, Berio, Isabelle d'Este, qui se sont inspiré des musiques populaires. Il n'y a que du bon ou du vide...?

[fantasticplasticluc]

Au risque d'être hors-propos, j'aimerais préciser que les concerts payants et/ou à souscription sont apparus à Venise au début du 17ème siècle... L'intervention de John Cage est très intéressante au demeurant

[goingfortheone1]

It's cool how he talks about coca cola bottles and at the same time, about originality in art - it seemes.

[das81]

How is that what he, Stockhausen, etc. started became associated the shit we all know as Club scene?.

Rest in peace men, there's people who still understood what you tried to do.

[karuni360]

is he still alive'? i would want his autograph is he is.

[Mrrandom02]

He's not sadly :(

[weatherrecords]

mrtyreman, you are a sad sack.

Picking on generous, sweet, intelligent, artists who are no longer walking the earth is so boring, so tasteless. Why not pick on someone your own size, like your local dive-bar cover band? Get lost.

[Spoondude]

I find it funny and interesting that Cage studied and spent time with Schonberg, but Cage's music ( I apologize to any Schonberg fans, to each his/her own) but John Cage's music actually had some feel and expression and you don't get the sour mathematical aftertaste that you get with Arnold.

[djambe]

To be honest, I don't like his music (except few pieces)...But man!...He fascinates me...It's my fault I don't like his music. For hearing him talking, you understand how genious he is...Too much genious for me to love his music as i wanted,unfortunatelly for me.RIP, John.

[lloplop]

it's funny how all the people who talk shit about John Cage...seem to be obsessed with watching him!!! There is more negatives thn anything! hahaha He is the Marcel Duchamp of music. Great. I love the outrage! hahahah such idiocy.

[mrtyreman]

don't be a fool, and then try and partonise me, he is easy to understand very easy! he comes across as someone who laughs in the face of composers like myself, (then gets paid a lot of money) backstage: "where's the next paycheck darling? we really fooled those other musicians unemployed on the dole didn't we, they are converted now!" next time someone plays 4'33 I'll be there ready to kill the performer at the end with my electric guitar x

[gammypage]

that was as about as intellectual as me saying "you smell!" , which I'm sure you do, smelly.

[joerobot32]

for those who dont understand john cage, dont pass him off as an idiot. his pieces and ideas were there mostly to prove or support his ideas, findings, and arguments. the lecture on nothing is really quite superb, though difficult to understand. very cool stuff from him.

[Dohbator]

brilliant individual.

[laurion69]

John Cage was never able to play any instrument.

He never learned the tecnique of composition and harmony.

He was a failed composer who tried to take shelter in alternative and ridicouls form of music just to hide his real limits.

[bigandymc12]

you must be taking that really hard...going to the bother to post that on more than one video and all

[klinertay]

Do more research. He played piano and based his music on music al QUESTIONS that were answered by chance. He could have answered the questions by choice. He studied with Shoenberg, and Virgil Thompson.

[ShiZm0]

this mans a GENIUSSSSSS.

[79dougb]

I believe Cage studied Zen and wanted to implement its concept of "paying attention" to ones surroundings within a musical composition.

[xRisingForcex]

4:33

[79dougb]

Thats Zen Buddhism

[reinux]

Zen Buddhism doesn't attempt to undermine epistemology; though a lot of the ideas come close, it's not its motive.

I would attribute this more to nihilism -- though John Cage would probably prefer a term like "relativism". If it is relativism, I would call it extremist relativism.

[joznick1]

Fascinating. If we COULD eschew our memories, we could live life as newborns, and always find beauty in everything. No place or situation or person would ever seem stale. Think about it, you would meet someone you've met before, and time has passed, see how their hair has grown etc, or, internally, the experiences they've had that have changed them and find the beauty in the fact that they are not the same. Same with places. Wow, amazing concept.

[LTGoshen]

Not an intelligent man? Schoenberg called him and inventor of genious!

[ThePukingExperience]

You're all reading too much into this. Cage knew nothing, he wanted to know nothing, he had a passive approach to life, and that's not a suitable approach to being a composer, which involves making CHOICES. Cage just wanted to sit on the fence all the time. Ultimately his work is of no value.

[chronodyne]

value is personally assigned by individuals, not you.

[76as54]

He was not an intelligent man, but he had a certain charm.

No need to insult him, but now it's time to move on to proper music.

[obie1963]

That's a pretty big claim to make without explaining yourself. What do you mean by "proper music"? How can there possibly be such a thing?

[AnotherBigDick]

I think he probably means Beethoven, Mozart, Mahler ...

But 4'33 is a serious work too.

[brandon9271]

but 4'33 isn't a music composition. It's just a way off making people think outside of the box. It's thought provoking and it makes you not only apreciate notes but the spaces in between. It's also a sort of social experiment to see how people react in a crowded music hall.

[reinux]

I think 4'33" is an experiment in bringing Asian notions to a Western audience -- regardless of what Cage himself thinks it is (he wouldn't even remember what he thought of it the first time he made the thought, according to him!). It's nothing more and nothing less.

As such I think it's a success; however, the fact that it's caused so much confusion is both interesting and disappointing.

[BulbousAlsoTapered]

"Asian notions" were obviously important to Cage (along with Dada, Thoreau, Cowell, Schoenberg etc). Cage certainly wouldn't "remember what he thought of it the first time", because being dead for all that time tends to affect the memory. However, while he was alive he consistently explained that the purpose of 4'33" was to draw attention to the sounds which are audible in the environment.

I think Cage would like the fact that he's still controversial.

[reinux]

The attention to the subtleties of the environment is the exact Asian notion that I'm referring to. In Japanese, it's called "mokusou" -- a lot like meditation, but less spiritual and more actively observant.

They take it a step further in Japan, building things like bamboo fountain instruments to punctuate the silence and draw attention to other passive sounds.

4'33" is not particularly profound, and the only reason Cage is still controversial is because he managed to confuse people.

[robertronics]

managed to confuse?

are you so sure what music is? do you think it is something spiritual? It´s only a construction in our minds, a cultural behavior resulting of years of sonorous preferences. We listen to music the same way we listen to people speaking, constructing sense and relationships.

There´s nothing great or spiritual about music, it´s just another automatic behavior in our lifes

that´s what cage helped to see. He wanted to free sounds from human intention

Roberto

[reinux]

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said music is spiritual.

When there's genuine logic to music and it's expressed in an intelligible way, it's musical. In the broadest definition of the term, music is "organized sound" -- look it up.

Either way, there's substantial, innovative music, and then there's music made from mundane algorithmic permutations. Cage's music is the latter.

Ask any neurologist and they'll tell you that music has objective grounds in neurology and physics.

[robertronics]

no, I didn´t say YOU said that, I was only giving the most common assertions...

so music is logic? or is it "organized sound"?

Are ALL sounds musical then? is every kind of organization musical?

"what is more musical, the sound of a truck passing by factory or a truck passing by a music school?"

I would never ask a scientist about music,

because you can never be objective about music

Science is about rules, generalizations, measures, etc etc but not emotions...

[reinux]

Uhh, the "organized sound" idea was actually by Charles Varese -- a contemporary musician. That's why I told you to look it up.

Obviously for something to be organized it has to be logical. Those two go hand in hand. Sound that has no intentional logic isn't musical, so no, not all sounds are musical.

I told you to ask a scientist because you insisted music isn't spiritual. Anything that isn't metaphysical is physical, so it *can* be analyzed by science, whether or not that's a good thing.

[reinux]

Furthermore, you contradict yourself in saying that music is an automatic behavior, yet that it cannot be analyzed by science because science is not about emotions. I don't care which of those two you believe, but at least be consistent.

Lastly, there *are* objective factors to music: more velocity = louder = intense, long pieces are boring (imagine 400'33"), pure harmonics (eg fifths) create no overtones and thus do not produce dissonant beating.

Cage himself can't escape these facts.

[MYNOSEISFULLOFSNOT]

crap

[ghasxkguc]

Seems like your brain is full of snot too.

[seispeatones]

For instance: check out sonic youth's rendition of steve reich's music. Check out the intro of Plug in Baby from Muse and you'll hear a silent humming to the music just like Gould's interpretation for bach's invention.

Now check out some of the stuff Trent Reznor from nine inch nails got out of Lachenman and even...John Cage.

either way,

"No two Coca-Cola bottles are the same"

[seispeatones]

It's worth the effort, for all those who stand in the opposition, to study history of contemporary music a little further. You will be impressed by how much you learn about rock or pop music today.

[seispeatones]

what is truely beautiful about Cage is how he still causes controversy, even after his death a good 16 years ago. There are still people who fight the idea of his art being music...well, he got all of you thinking about it...

What is music?

[jamesaellis]

i understand about 'the music that is not yet written'...

[Bigchurchmusic]

I think Mr Cage was a very clever and deep thinking person. I like his attitude to life.

[Bashkii]

He was a total CLOWN!!!

[logosthedestroyer]

Do you mean to say that there is something wrong with that, Bashkii?

[matijabg]

As you are a complete ignorant, I pity you. But I am sure that Mr Cage, if you had the courage to tell him that he was a total clown in person, would wish you a long, happy, fulfilled life. Big people are very rare, and very big due to their knowledge, open mind for every type of person, including people like yourself. Thanks you for being the way you are.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

To continue, KingBoneheadVIII, it is a trick our mind plays on us when we compare Cage to Carter and think this a more illustrative comparison than to compare Cage to (name a philosopher or writer or poet). Nominally, each is a composer. But for Cage what he composes is not musical form, but musical opportunity. Thanks for thoughtful criticism.

[TheBlackPage1]

I always gain more insight to Cage the more I read your comments, thanks again.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Thanks. I enjoy your comments -- and info as well.

[109suv]

Cynical Americans know that in business you can sell anything, even if it's trash, if you promote and advertise it in the right way. Cage knew nothing about music but he understood that if he presented commonplace thoughts in a calm manner it would suggest that he possessed wisdom and authority. So he tried this trick and it brought him the fame he deserved. But this stupid man is dead now and it's time we forgot him and moved on.

[TheBlackPage1]

Hahahaha

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Okay. Cage did know about music --- he studied with Cowell and Scheonberg. He just didn't let what he knew get in the way of what he didn't know. As to his stupidity, you are aware of his Summa Cum Laude credentials, etc, not that any of that matters at all. You are entitled to completely disapprove of him or disagree with his ideas, of course. Well, I love John Cage, so it hurts a bit, what you said about him.

[dos4gw82]

All of my music theory, history, and anthology books contain Cage's music. Regardless of your opinion of his wisdom, his music has influenced a great deal of modern composers. Everyone wants to be listened to and respected, but Cage truly earned his. If he was interested in created any kind of business, trust me, he wouldn't have become a musician. It's always easier to dismiss something when you know nothing about it. And...Cynical *Americans*? I don't think that's confined to one county. Ass.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

The cynicism is your own.

[fourpinkpotatoes]

I would be genuinely interested in the opinions of real Cage enthusiasts regarding the video of 4'33" being performed on a bus. You can find it with a search for 'cage 333' (the number of the bus was apparently 333). It's had more positive comments than any other Cage video. I am puzzled by the praise being heaped on it.

[gendaiongaku]

Very interesting point of view.

[urbania70]

A very pleasant interview, thanx

[michaeldblack]

The sounds that start at 3:16, what composition is it?

thanks a million

[Roswellsounds]

Cage`s words are deep, provocative & moving...

He deserves much more respect that he has been given.

How do you build something new? Do you use the theory & structure that was behind,? Will it be "new" if you do that? Or do you break with everything in the past in order to achieve your goal?

[KingBoneheadVIII]

Cage certainly presents some valid ideas, but he does so in a self-conscious way, divorcing them from the act of composition itself. Many other composers think in similar terms, but they do not advertise their 'philosophy' in the same way that Cage does. Carter is a professional who just gets on with the job of writing a score without talking about it; Cage makes a big fuss about his ideas (with an element of naive posturing) but can't integrate them into a genuine compositional framework.

[FartingElephant]

King Bonehead VIII: well, at least you take Cage seriously, even though you obviously don't rate him highly.

I take your point, but I believe you are mistaken in assuming that Cage thinks in terms of 'the act of composition'. His thoughts go back to an earlier stage in the creative process than this - and maybe even 'creative' is the wrong word. He often presents sounds rather than creating them.

[TheFutureofBullshit]

Where do you stand in the great bullshit debate? What are your views about bullshit? Is it a significant social force? Is it an important element of modern society? Has bullshit developed in recent years? Is the quality of bullshit as high as in the 1990s? Or do you not have views? Do you need advice from a bullshit guidance expert?

Should bullshit become a way of life? Should the future of bullshit be regulated by government legislation, or by qualified independent consultants?

[thegoodgeneral]

Thanks, KingBoneHead. I've felt the same way for a long time, and I'm glad other people feel that way.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

I don't think he "divorces" his ideas from composition. I guess, the big difference between Cage and someone like Carter is a musician who composes, whereas Cage is a composer of ---- well it might be music, or it might be something else --- an experience? Carter fusses about music --- by making musical choices in his composition. Cage fusses about openness, perhaps, about possibilities for change.

[selectorsam]

dope video. smart

[maestroanth]

Heh good discussion here. I like Cage, this youtube stuff is amazing of him. His stuff you have to SEE it too, not just hear it. Although my fav will almost always be Ligeti.

[veralisik]

I like Legeti too, though I've not searched him yet here. I love the Cage videos, though - fan that I am - there is absolutely no point whatsoever in posting performances of 4'33", by Tudor or anyone else. Totally pointless outside of a life environment.

[maestroanth]

No no nono nononono,

Tudor was magnificent. Read the subcaption. Mute it or whatever. The point is the environment around YOU. For example, while I was watching that how much more in tune was I to sounds like my air conditioning coming on and such. Simply amazing concept.

[veralisik]

I understand the piece, and even was fortunate enough to have been present at a performance (not Tudor) when I was quite young; but in my home, in front of my laptop? No. It needs the element of live performance; if anything, the presence of the video distracts from the purpose of the piece. Same goes for recordings. We can get "more in tune" with our environment w/o the video/recordings, thanks to Cage.

Can you imagine being there at the first performance in '52?

[maestroanth]

Actually, Lourak has a good point. I love Cage, but yet he says he's emotionally dead. Some of us want better.

[veralisik]

Well, one always has Rachmaninoff... actually, I don't believe Lourak ever said Cage was "emotionally dead"; music can be many, many things, and emotion is only one of them. Lourak wants to reduce the possibilities of music, rather than expand them; in place of progress, he wants stasis. It's an untenable position.

[lourak]

I'm sorry but you thoroughly mischaracterize my position. I ask those reading this comment to view my own comments above.

[veralisik]

Well, let's hope some DO read it - it will be an indication of the growing interest in Cage and his peers (Feldman, Wolff, et al). Sorry for any perceived mischaracterizaion, I just called it as I saw/see it.

By the way, your Bach video was quite nice, though I may have enjoyed it more had there been a few nuts and bolts in the strings!

[lourak]

Thank you! I will be posting a performance of the Beethoven, Op. 110 soon. Keep an eye out for it.

[drtoastbrot]

yep, his works are still not understood

[lourak]

Part 4

Despite the expressed intention of these "artists" to challenge an elitist view of art, they have, in fact, created a greater elitism - witness the small turnouts at these concerts. But this is not new. History provides ample evidence of Revolutionaries ultimately committing more heinous sins than their predecessors.

[WickedWildStylesDead]

Don't you think it's interesting to be able to look at the world in a different way? (re.part 3)For some Art can only be based on opinion. Art for me isn't about good or bad works (if that can even be defined) it's all about exploring and finding a new way to learn and look at things and experience them. x

[lourak]

Part 1

Your question is valid - I will answer as concisely as possible. It depends on who is doing the looking and who is doing the reporting. The best guarantor of accuracy, the way I see it, is when the agent (or artist) is steeped in tradition and possesses technical resources acquired within that tradition. The rest is suspect (interesting and thought provoking though it may be).

[lourak]

Part 2

I am not interested in the new for its own sake - that is why our culture is in this debauched state - a condition that people with eyes and ears can readily see. Alas, you have been taken in by a bankrupt aesthetic philosophy that offers no criterion for evaluating works of art - if fact - that very impotency of critical measurement is what is touted as the higher insight - is this not insane?

[lourak]

Part 3

The very definition of art, historically, has always called for control, organization and engagement with traditional forms - (and yes, rebellion is acceptable, as in the case of Beethoven's pushing the envelope of past forms). Cage and company would have us return to a pre-historic mentality of staring at the stars and wondering - wondering - wondering - and then what? For that - I have nature.

[veralisik]

Lourak, wow, where to begin? Could you elaborate some more on just why our culture is in such a "debauched state?" What state do you feel it should be in? You offer the most inflexible, unliberating definition of art imaginable - you make it sound more like a totalitarian regime than a creative endeavor. It's quite big of you to allow a bit of rebellion in your police state.

[lourak]

Thanks for responding! - Firstly, I would kindly ask you to read my previous posts more carefully, for it sets out (admittedly briefly) my definition of a "debauched culture". I refer you also to my comments at the clip: "Listen : John Cage - in love with another sound -01." As far as your desire to "liberate art" - I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean rather "rebel against tradition"? Fine, but that's a different discussion.

[veralisik]

As far as tradition goes, tell me: what tradition were Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington "engaged" in? Ragtime? They dismantled it thoroughly. I hesitate to mention any more contemporary genres, as they may get you a bit riled up; more to the point, you've likely ignored them completely.

[lourak]

Hardly! Armstrong and Ellington both used and had respect for tonal and rhythmic constructions that were very much a part of Ragtime. There evolution was gradual. I nowhere argue against an evolution in musical style or sound. I myself compose in a serialized atonal style and even include elements of indeterminacy on a foreground level. Cage, however, made such a radical departure that it precludes him, musically speaking, (in my opinion) from enjoying any mantle of respectability.

[veralisik]

Armstrong's Hot Five and Seven recordings are as far removed from ragtime (and the blues, it shold be mentioned) as can be imagined at the time. It really was a NEW form of popular music, not merely an evolution of a tradition. Armstrong was not inevitable, as most evolutionary steps are - he was cataclysmic (though not in a pejorative sense).

[lourak]

I am not an expert on the music of Armstrong or that genre in general - yet, I know that your assertion as to Armstrong's radical innovation being "cataclysmic" (in the way that I have described Cage's departure), is an assertion without logical veracity. Armstrong and company operated, throughout their careers, in a landscape of functional tonality and rhythmic regularity as did their predecessors. Hardly the kind of departure we're looking at in the case of Cage.

[veralisik]

Note that I said "at the time", as in, from a historical perspective. I'm no expert either, and precedential historical artifacts are difficult to come by, but his approach to trumpet and improvising was - sorry - totally new (unless you want to factor Bolden in, but how would you?); like Hendrix several decades later. The difference being that Cage wasn't really a performer.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

I think it is a bit difficult without specifying a context, and with anything contemporary, hard to say what defines the context from which to regard an artist's work as a continuation of something, or a rupture from something. both are happening at the same time. I've even read essays that place Cage, philosophically, in with the Romantics, because of his preoccupations with Nature and his distrust of artifacts.

[veralisik]

It's all well and good to live in the past, lourak, and if that's how you choose to live your life, fine; but to seek a video such as this simply to denigrate it is pointless and betrays a fear that you'd be well advised to deal with.

[lourak]

I do not consider Cage a voice of the "future" and am not interested in "living in the past". But I do believe in respecting and reckoning with the past. The public has not yet begun to assimilate the innovations of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern - we dare not move too fast. I do believe that indeterminacy and other aspects of composition that Cage employed will become part of our musical future. But not because of him - rather, despite him.

[veralisik]

"I do believe that indeterminacy and other aspects of composition that Cage employed will become part of our musical future. But not because of him - rather, despite him."

I'd be REAL interested in hearing an explanation of this thesis.

[lourak]

I don't understand your question here. I never questioned the possibility of incorporating indeterminacy as a parameter within the structure of a composition. I am concerned, as is clear in my comments, with the overall artistic approach of the composer as an agent within musical tradition.

[veralisik]

It's the "in spite of/not because of" portion I'm curious about. I'm no psychic, but whenever indeterminancy is discussed in music, Cage's name will be a benchmark.

Look, he was a maverick, for all the good AND bad that that term implies, and mavericks deserve their place in the canon, whether it be music, visual arts, writing, whatever. The fact that he doesn't fit comfortably in academia is academia's problem, not his.

[lourak]

There's validity in your point - I'll give it some thought. Anyway, I'll have to leave it there. Thats for the interesting discussion!

[veralisik]

No problem, thank you. Really, try some bolts in the piano, it can make a world of difference.

[lourak]

During my early years as a composition student with George Perle, I wrote several pieces for prepared piano - this approach is not unknown to me. I have since, with the acquisition of some degree of wisdom (hmmm), consigned those pieces to the dust bin. Been there - done that! Surprised?

[veralisik]

Well, don't most student compositions get tossed in the bin with age, whether they have bolts or not?

And actually, no I'm not that surprised, as many have tried it since popularized the idea.

[BrucknerEnthusiast]

If you don't mind me asking, when did you study with George Perle? His writings on Alban Berg were important to me when I was a student in the UK (1981-87) and his book 'Serial Composition and Atonality' was much discussed in my student days: there was an aggressive debate in 'The Musical Times' about it around 1970, with opposing views from two contributors: Roger Smalley and Hugh Wood.

[lourak]

Hello BrucknerEnthusiast -

yes...I studied composition with George as a graduate student at Queens College (Now - The Aaron Copland School of Music)from the years 1976 thru 78. - He was a very formative influence upon my approach, till this day. The rigor of that background will explain some of my above opinions on Cage - I think you'll understand...Thanks for asking!

[BrucknerEnthusiast]

lourak: yes, a rigorous training is beneficial for composers and performers. Often a student does not realise the value of such training until much later in their development. In piano studies, the most effective way to learn how to play difficult contemporary music accurately is to devote the early years of study to analysing one's playing so intensely that even in a 'simple' Mozart sonata the student is rationalising how to play EVERY note. I guess it's the same in composition studies too.

[BrucknerEnthusiast]

The naive misunderstanding by some of John Cage's most indiscriminate 'hero-worship' admirers (who are not to be confused with Cage's more sincere admirers) is that technique and artistic communication are separate areas. The reality is that the latter will be significantly compromised if the former is lacking. But unless people have achieved a professional level of technique themselves they may not understand its crucial relevance to artistic communication. That sounds elitist, but it's true.

[robertronics]

no, it isn´t true

cage doesn´t speak about "artistic communication" (whatever that is) at least it was not his intention to "communicate"

about tecnique: whatever you do, it will always have a determined tecnique, because tecniques are just the way you do things. And there is no right or wrong way to do things in art

porfessional level? artistic communication? the only thing there is to know about art is that everyone can be an artist

thanx for reading

[BrucknerEnthusiast]

Perhaps one should regard anyone who can appreciate art (in terms of awareness and understanding) as an artist, even if they are not a 'creative' performer or a composer. In this sense, I would agree that everyone can be an artist.

As a university teacher I find that if students have conscious artistic understanding they are already 50% of the way towards achieving their creative aims. As you say, 'technique' rarely exists in the abstract; but this is a big subject, often misunderstood.

[Roswellsounds]

Well, you two sure had an interesting debate.(The "police state" comment was too much!)

Why do I get the feeling that this sounds like a timeless, neverending cultural debate? This was discussed in every art aspect: people who leave tradition & schooling behind to try something different (most of them with an educated background), and the traditional, father-like voice in the other side.

Kind of predictable if one tries and sees the big picture.

[Roswellsounds]

2

My question is: Wich values do we use to measure an art work? Is it an ortodox, rigid scale? Or perhaps some flexibility is welcome?

Cage`s departure from tradition was violent. Positive? Perhaps. But it is always healthy to open new windows in the house, so one can get another blow of fresh air, don`t you think?

Would we be talking of Cage if he had sticked his nose in structure? Mmmm...

Remember that some people wanted to "kill" Stravinsky after "Le sacre..."

[lourak]

Part 3

It is regretful - even tragic - because Cage is responsible for rearing an entire generation of "composers" and "artists" who, with great pretension of having something to say, littered our culture with objects and sounds that are at best, inscrutable.

[lourak]

Part 2

This "philosophy" is nothing more than the extrapolation, into the artistic domain, of the anarchistic and socially hostile attitudes that were prevalent, particularly, in the years following the second world war. Those, in the artistic community, who did not have the courage to embrace a thorough-going existentialism, chose this path and escaped into an amorphous and undisciplined esotericism.

[lourak]

Part 1

Sounds interesting. However, if you make the slightest attempt to probe what he is saying, you will discover an amazing triteness and philosophical sophomorism. Cage appeals to the tendency for intellectual and cognitive dissolution - a tendency that merely mirrors his own lack of a rigorous and traditional compositional technique.

[pigshavebeards]

Cage is more of a philosopher than a composer.

And what's a 'buttle'?

[hexachordal]

well, not really. He wrote more compositions than philosophies. That makes him a composer in my books.

and it's a typo of 'bottle', but you knew that really, didn't you?

[digitalliance]

Thank you Mr Cage, thankyou...

[vanderhoof]

art in our time is more or less important than our daily lives. the purpose of its not unique,not 2 build masterpieces - but simply 2 wake 2 your life. 'gord downie-TRAGICALLY HIP

[haywoodwalker]

Bardlebuns is right...if you love John you will love Ron

[messtizoo]

too good

[bardlebuns]

If you love John Cage ask yourself: "who is ron paul?"

[GraigRussell]

I looked up Ron Paul on the net and only got results for a US presidentail candidate. Care to elucidate?

[nonequoted]

I Completely Agree. My name is Micah CrA ft. ..<

[estevancarlos]

John Cage is my spiritual advisor.

[jeffreycollins]

i bet that makes for some really long distance phone calls.

Cage is awesome, Cage is Cage...and Cage is not Cage.

[kyuliu]

thank you for this video