The Doctrine of Sola Fide and James 2:14-26, Pt. 1

[billseremak1970]

Wow. You chose to ignore Matthew 7:21-27 and 25:31-46. IN mathew 25:31-46 Jesus was talking about you.

[Papasmurph4]

@billseremak1970 Well, for certain we are both in one of those two groups. I prefer the latter since only they will be allowed into the presence of God.

[iamTOTALLYredeemed]

Great video. There are many extremes on both sides of the scales surrounding the topic of faith and works:

As well as those that hold to a doctrine of faith alone that like to brush James 2:14-26 under the rug, you also hold to a two fold salvation: dead 'faith' and law (or 'good works' as they may call it), who like to brush Romans 4:13,14 and Ephesians 2:8-10 under the rug. Neither their works nor faith is saving. This is seen a lot with JWs, Mormons, and Catholics, to just name a few.

[Papasmurph4]

@iamTOTALLYredeemed Thanks for listening to my video. I don't brush any verses from the Bible aside; I believe them all. Make your points about Romans 4 and Eph 2 and I will respond to them if they need responding to.

[iamTOTALLYredeemed]

@Papasmurph4

Oh no, maybe you misunderstand me. By what you have said I believe that you understand what it means that works complete faith. No argument with you here.

I was just pointing out that there are many who see works as like and additional requirement other than their "faith", which is a fruitless faith; no faith at all.

[Papasmurph4]

@iamTOTALLYredeemed Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 HOW to DEBUNK the CATHOLIC CHURCH on "Sola Fide"

Jesus who is God and apostles taught FAITH ALONE

John 6:28 They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

Titus 3:4 But—“When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love, HE SAVED US, NOT BECAUSE OF THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS WE HAD DONE, but because of his mercy

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid Jesus never taught that salvation is by faith alone! Yes, he taught that without faith one cannot be saved, but this is not the same as saying salvation by faith alone. What translation are you using for John 6:28? Whatever it is, it's a perversion of his words? Jesus never said, "This is the ONLY WORK God wants from you....", but he did say, Mk 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Finally I wonder what Titus 3:5 means? Be careful how you read.

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 "Jesus never taught that salvation is by faith alone! Yes, he taught that without faith one cannot be saved, but this is not the same as saying salvation by faith alone."

Question?

1. Was the thief at the cross SAVED by FAITH ALONE?

2. At which point in the apostles life they know they are SAVED? Is it the moment they realized who's the Messiah or they have to wait until they do good works just to find out they are SAVED?

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid Thanks for your questions. The Lord willing, I will get to them sometime this week. In the meantime, I am wondering, why you and those of your position are unwilling to deal with the only the verse in the bible where the words that actually uses the words πίστεως μόνον (faith only or faith alone) are found together in a context dealing with justification? What does James mean when he wrote "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"?

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 Question?

1. At which point can you say to a person in death row that he/she can still be saved? Do u have to tell them do some good works 1st efore they can be saved?

2. How about a bed-ridden athiest? Do u ask them for good works as a proof of their faith?

3. How about a Muslim in d middle of d desert? Do u wait until he gets to a city to do good works just to prove he is a real Christian?

4. Again, I asked. At what point in d apostles life they know they're saved?

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid If they believe in Jesus, I tell them what Jesus tells them to do through the apostles "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...." (Acts 2:38) Remember, it was Jesus who said "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned" (Mar 16:16).

By the way, I inadvertently erased your other comments. If you wish to post the exact thing again, I will allow them to be posted here.

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 One more thing. Do Catholic church believe a person cannot be saved through radio, tv, internet or satellite?

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid You probably need to ask a Catholic this question.

Here are two statements: 1. He who has believed and has not been baptized shall be saved? 2. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved? Now, which of these two statements were said by Jesus? Which of them is the truth. Finally, which one do you believe?

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid The thief was saved by faith, but not by faith alone. For Jesus taught that the believer who would enter the kingdom of heaven is the believer who "does the will of My Father who is in heaven" (Mat 7:21). Furthermore, the scriptures say that Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him (Heb 5:9) and that the justified individual is "justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas 2:24). So yes, the thief was saved by faith, but not by faith alone.

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 "So yes, the thief was saved by faith, but not by faith alone."

So, what else saves the thief besides faith? English is your first language, right?

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid John, the baptizer was sent by God to preach “a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins” (Lk 3:2-3; Mk 1:4) The apostles were initially forgiven of their sins (saved) when they, as penitent believers were baptized by John. When John later told them that Jesus is the Messiah, the apostles continued to be justified as they followed (obeyed) Him (John 3:36; 12:26).

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 "The apostles were initially forgiven of their sins (saved) when they, as penitent believers were baptized by John. When John later told them that Jesus is the Messiah, the apostles continued to be justified as they followed (obeyed) Him (John 3:36; 12:26)"

What if one of the apostles believed Jesus is the Messiah. On the way to the river. He tripped and hit his head on a rock, then died. Is that person saved? If you say 'yes'. Then, why do you have two standards?

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid What if an unbeliever with "an honest and good heart" (Lk 8:15) was on his way to hear Jesus for the first time, but tripped and hit his head on a rock, then died. Is this person saved? If you say "Yes," then don't you have to standards? Isn't this silly questions, abukid? Here is what I think, the person who asks, "what if" in an attempt to get escape what the scriptures teach regarding water is nothing less than an unbeliever.

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 "What if an unbeliever with "an honest and good heart" (Lk 8:15) was on his way to hear Jesus for the first time, but tripped and hit his head on a rock, then died. Is this person saved?"

You sound more like a UNIVERSALIST, the Roman Universal-ist Church..LOL.. Let say the unbeliever is "an honest and good heart" atheist. What do you think?

John 14:6 Jesus told him,“I am the way,the truth,and the life.No one can come to the Father except through me

My answer is no.

[Papasmurph4]

@Papasmurph4 In response to my question, you wrote: You sound more like a UNIVERSALIST, the Roman Universal-ist Church..LOL.. Let say the unbeliever is "an honest and good heart" atheist. What do you think?

John 14:6 Jesus told him,“I am the way,the truth,and the life.No one can come to the Father except through me

My answer is no.

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid you at least got the main point of my foolish question. Our task is the proclaim the message of Jesus as it was revealed by the apostles. We have no right to change the message based on "what if ...?" That's what you were asking me to do with your question. Jesus says, that the believer who shall be saved is the baptized believer, no "what if" about it. This is what I believe and this is what I teach, even in the desert. By the way, were was the Eunuch when Philip baptized him?

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 Ok, you don't like what if. How about the adulterer woman that was thrown in front of Jesus Christ. At what point she was saved? Jesus never gave her water baptism. You mean if she tripped on her way home and dies. She is not saved even though she is forgiven. I rather believed in being baptised in Holy Spirit. John said he will baptized in water but a greater one will come and will baptized in the Spirit.

[Papasmurph4]

@abukid You are reading things into the passage that aren't there.How do you know that she is saved? Does the text say that she believed in Jesus or repented of sin? Here are three questions for you: 1) Give the passage where Jesus commanded anyone to be baptized in the Spirit. 2) Did Jesus command anyone to be baptized in water and 3) What is the purpose of water baptism, according to the scriptures.

[abukid]

@Papasmurph4 "What is the purpose of water baptism"

Public proclamation of acceptance to the church. Water has no power to cleanse people's sin. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse sins. Once God sees the real heart of a person covered by His Son's blood. Then, He send the Holy Spirit to baptized that person.

[StringPlunker]

Jesus taught that if you do not bear fruit, keeping his commands, then you will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

[Papasmurph4]

@StringPlunker Yes he did.

[cloudskipper40]

I think the big confusion in this whole debate is the bible uses the word "works" in two different contexts. The same way it uses the word "tradition" in two different contexts. Works are not a means to be saved,...no one ever said that. Protestants also confuse justification with salvation. Although related they are not the same. James makes it VERY clear that faith without works is dead. When you combine Ephesians with James,..we are saved by grace which comes through faith with works.

[TheNatureBoyWooooo]

What good s the blood of jesus, if you still have to rely on yourself to be saved? Where is the peace in that? Would his yoke fail to be easy and the burden fail to be light?

But if you look at it from a different angle you will see that a person who has been saved by God alone, will also be regenerated and will want to do the things that please God. God saves us, that then inspires us to glorify God as a sign of thanksgiving. Works are a result of being saved, not a means to be saved.

[REPN4JC]

Amen Kieran

[krononomikon]

"he who endures to the end will be saved"

[1977godisgood]

We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and the reserection,therefore we are also reborn and no longer bondservant of sin and death. All that are reborn in Christ will not be barren or fruitless,and will bear the fruit of Godliness and rightiousness,not by the works of man,but those of God because of our faith. A apple tree that does not produce apples defeats it's purpose. Faith without works is is dead alone.