There is a sadness over how many people get their historical understanding from loosely based historical movies, quote-mining, bloggers and politicians. Anyone who READS THE ACTUAL Papers of A. Hamilton cannot but shake their head at misrepresentation that goes on today. Hamilton's financial policies NEVER called for a PERPETUAL DEBT, the First Natl Bank was not a central bank(read the charter), & he emphatically stated that any LAW against the Cons. or Natural Rights is VOID.
Washington looks so lost in the conversation lol. Honestly, he wasn't a great tactician, or politician, why the hell is so much importance centralised on him?
"Washington looks so lost in the conversation lol. Honestly, he wasn't a great tactician, or politician, why the hell is so much importance centralised on him?"
Because at this point in history Washington is essentially the King of the United States.
@TheSirPrise It's because he showed leadership when it was needed the most and that led to him gaining absolute trust from the people of America. To be a good leader you don't need to a be a politician or tactician, nowadays that just leads to corruption. To make it short, people saw him as a trustworthy and honest man who wanted the best for his country. That is how it should be now, and all the time.
@ConfederatePatriot We don't need to become 2 seperate nations to preserve our state autonomy. We need only to return to the constitution,especially the 10th amendment. Doing that would allow us to stay together as a nation of nations without losing our freedom.
@Southernjuggalo63 The division in this country isn't between north and south,but between the victorious Hamiltonian big government philosophy--which has adherence all over the nation and Jefferson's small government point of view which is not limited to the south. We need to take this country back--all of it back,from the authoritarians who have messed up this great nation. Ron Paul 2012!!
@kcufmalsi Government (Public) Education is the "revisionist" and has been since they won the War. It is evident that you are only one of the common casualties of our propaganda system. You should do your own personal research instead of believing everything you hear. You don't have to dig very deep into 19th century quotes to know that the War Between The States was not over slavery and that the Bible Belt (South) is not hateful, but hospitable.
@tikletik Of course it could have... but when asked "Why not let the South go in peace?", Lincoln replied "I can't let them go, who would pay for the government?"
"Freedom vs. Big Government": what the poster of this video is missing is the first part of the miniseries, what Adams witnesses from the people of Boston. He needs to examine it along with James Mill's "The Tyranny of the Majority" and then say that a balance between individual and centralized powers is not a necessity. The question is and always has been, "where is that balance"?
LMAO Hamilton practically wrote the constitution, this arguement was not between "Big Government" vs "Freedom", It was between the ideaology behind the constitution (Hamilton) vs the ideaology behind the Articles of Confederation (Jefferson), Guess what? Hamilton was right.
@projectbrumaire Hamilton has a bad rap based on misguided support from modern big government democrats. They believe that Hamilton supported their modern ideology. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hamilton's great failure was a lack of foresight. He was perhaps a bit naive. He did not anticipate the groundswell of disdain for freedom that comes from a population kept as pets by benevolent big government. The founders ALL agreed upon the principles of liberty that we take for granted.
That is not true at all. Democrats today share the same ideas as Hamilton where as back in the early 1900s and 1800s, it was the Democratic Party that supported the free-market and free trade capitalism and gold and state rights and the republican party supported protectionism, modernization, taxes, government involvement in infrastructure and things like public education and research and development. Both political parties switched ideologies
@projectbrumaire Also, it's important that you get your facts strait. The constitutions was principally authored by James Madison, not Alexander Hamilton.
Washington was very good to his slaves (not that it excuses slavery but it is a trait in his favor) and freed them upon his death. Jefferson, too, spoke of abolition and introduced measures to try to free the slaves although they never passed.
The ideas these men had, and were able to compile and put down on paper to protect state's rights and individual rights was simply revolutionary for the time. This was a world ruled by monarchs and these men devised a government of, for and by the people.
@terrinyc29 So did the majority of the world. That was just the mindset then. And many of them didn't own slaves or were abolitionists. This country was not the only country that owned slaves. They were not hypocrites.
This country was not the only Slave owning Country but was the only Country of Chattel slavery. This is the only country where HUMAN BEING who were enslaved were deemed as not being human. They had ripped from them not only their freedom but their culture, language, homeland and their God. Treated not only by the slave owning class but written in the law books as 3/5th of a person. There is no where else in the world that treated slaves as Horrifically as this Hypocritical Land.
@terrinyc29 I take that you don't like this land(usa) because of its past sins....so every other nation who kills others folks and continue to enslave humans are better? America was wrong...but surely have made up for that sin....I would rather live as a black man in this country than any other country of the face of the earth...
@norr4636 How did this Country make up for its past sins? Slavery and the "Race Issue" is still an untouched topic. Most people black and white are still fearful to speak on it in diverse company. I'm not quite sure which land you speak of that has made good on its past sins. Germany has made up for its past sins in some ways and other countries as well. Me loving or hating this country has nothing to do with hypocrisy being the cornerstone and foundation of this society.
Our country paid for slavery with Civil War... almost 700,000 Americans died and most of our major cities were either damaged or destroyed as a consequence of the war (Southern cities destroyed by Northern armies, with northern cities damaged in the draft riots). Anyone who ever owned slaves lost their "property" without compensation, while we under took a Constitutional amendment to ban slavery.. I think ending a problem at GREAT national expense of blood and material counts...
@terrinyc29 Americans are afraid to speak on the subject of race today, because all opinions that don't fall in line with the far left ideology of endless redistribution, will be demonized. Everybody is tired of being called racist by the left for suggesting that perhaps it's time we all stood on our own two feet. Germany can hardly be said to have dealt with their issues when their war on free speech exists literally in the courts, as opposed to just within our politically correct culture.
It's amazing how you try to attack the left even though the left and liberalism is what created our nation. Liberal ideals is what started the American revolution and our constitution. But its funny how you preach about all these conservative things then talk about Alexander Hamilton when today he would be considered a left wing socialist because of his support for taxes, protectionism, government funding for infrastructure and public education and more.
@cinemafreak666 Liberalism is not "left wing", you either want Authoritarianism or Libertarianism, they can both have Left/Right Spending attitudes. The Left/Right is with regard to spending. You can hardly call Communism a Liberal mindset can you? Social Democrats (left wing spending wise) have wide ranging views socially for example. I think its a misconception, and also America shouldnt call Democrats "Liberals", your democratic party ranges from Social Democrats - right wing Centrists
I never said political parties are left wing or right wing, but they have ideologies and both parties have moderates, liberals, and conservatives all in each party but Liberalism is left wing.
The whole term of left wing vs right wing came to be during the American and French Revolutions when they divided congress and/or Parliament up and people who favored the revolution and Enlightment ideas aka Liberals would be on the left and people who favored the Monarchy would be on the right.
Communism isn't a liberal mind set, it is a far left ideology just like Fascism, Monarchism, Feudalism, etc is far right wing.
You can't label things as left wing or right wing or liberalism or conservatism because of spending. Both sides have spending, both side have taxes, both sides have government. Its issues not if someone spends, taxes, or increases or shrinks governments because both sides do. Its about issues. You can't put things in two categories like Authoritarianism or Libertarianism because that is not how reality works, you can't fit things in two categories.
@cinemafreak666 Well I'm afraid spending or not spending comes under Left or Right wing definitely. Problem is people have been that brainwashed by the media, that not many know what the go is anymore. Your right it does come down to issues, and realistically because it's a 2 party system and there are ever increasing blurry lines between the left-right paradigm, it seems meaningless to argue about petty issues instead of fix the problems, agreed, but there still is realistically a demarcation
There is left, there is right, and there is center. And each side has variables. You can be a conservative and believe in Global Warming and Evolution. You can be a liberal a and support war policies. You can be a moderate and have a combination of both the left and the right. We have a two party system but the two party system has a bunch of diverse people, both parties have moderates, liberals, conservatives, etc.
@terrinyc29: Slavery in the Americas was an economic system we inherited from the Europeans, we didn't invent it. Would you have rather England maintained posession of North America? Just look at how well of all the "free" British slaves are now doing in say Jamaca (roll eyes). The USA is still the BEST country on the planet for opportunity for anyone who really wants to EARN it.
@terrinyc29 Think of it this way: Slavery is probably at least 10,000 years old. Africa has been involved since the beginning, Europeans perfected it. 235 years ago it was America who began the VERY FIRST conversation about abolishing the institution, and then legally did so 89 years later. I'd say that makes America heroic, not hypocritical.
@plbhl The land you say "Perfected" the evil system of Chattel slavery is the only one that treated slaves as less than Human, striped them of Everything and OWNED them and their descendants for life. Europe and others that practice slavery with people who looked like themselves (usually) their system was not so EVIL. European slaves were not deemed as less than by the government they lived under. Slavery in the Americas was the only form of slavery based solely on skin color.
@terrinyc29 Sorry but the cliche of the "kinder gentler" slavery of Europe and Africa is PC college kid stuff. African's who sold their enemy tribe prisoners into the Trans-Atlantic system knew what they were doing. The idea that slaves in other systems experienced "slavery light" is just something you want to believe, and not based on actual research. I'm sure the children who were born into and died in ancient Egyptian copper mines having never been outside would take no comfort in their race.
@terrinyc29 The ancient Jews were the first people to attempt to humanize the slave class by granting rights to the Sabbath rest and freedom after 7 years. Regardless of the comparisons of Americas vs others (and ALL were horrific) the point of topic was America as a nation, inspired by Jefferson, was the first to eventually confront it's past and abolish the institution. MANY WHITE Americans also died then and during the civil rights era for their belief in what is right.
@plbhl America is Truly the Land of Hypocrisy. People like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington fight for their freedom while OWNING HUMANS........so sick
Hamilton wouldn't be big government by today's standards. You can't really question the mans devotion to the constitution: he helped write it. His influence in the drafting process indicates that he did value the idea of limited government.
Jefferson was naaive though, the French Revolution was the ultimate starting point of "big gov't" it was Hamilton, not Jefferson who saw the dangers...
why have all of our jobs gone overseas?? Alexander Hamilton would have explained what a protectionist policy is. Alexander Hamilton never supported a central bank. that's BS. show me the document that states this. Alexander Hamilton was dead in 1913. Ron Paul is the enemy that supports big oil and is against protectionism. Paul is a cocksucker elite who doesn't weant to regulate the banks. why don't all the Ron Paul sheep drive off a cliff so we can change direction.
@LouieArrighi wow. what a terrible argument. you start well but then end like a typical liberal. avoid the subject and start namecalling. A protectionist policy is just another way to redistribute wealth. Our jobs have gone overseas due to government interference and regulation in business. High corporate tax rates and minimum wage standards (somewhat) are to blame. These taxes don't only effect employment, but the pricing of goods and services which causes standard of living costs to go up
@godmathias name one regulation that prevents small businesses from competing. corporate tax rates are one of the lowest ever. not sure, but you seem like an ideologue to me. as far as protectionism, I'm not sure you understand the concept.
@LouieArrighi Protectionism - the economic policy of restraining trade between states through methods such as tariffs on imported goods, restrictive quotas, and a variety of other government regulations designed to discourage imports and prevent foreign take-over of domestic markets and companies.
@LouieArrighi Hamilton was an elite. He was a power monger that believed that power could easily gained when the responsibility of the government is increased, giving nearly dictatorial powers to the government. Read up on some history will ya? The First Bank Charter is what they are arguing about in this scene. The First Bank Charter incurred all debts and even economic policy into a central body, in order to increase responsibility. Jackson killed the bank, our national debt was 29K, from 48M.
@masterskyrunner ...and where can I find these so called facts that you type? it's just made up bullshit from Mises, the thinktank that gets paid millions to create bullshit talking points.
@LouieArrighi Wow. You need to open up a history book sometime, since you've never even heard of the First Bank Charter. It lasted for 20 years and missed recharter in 1811 by one vote.
@LouieArrighi No, actually he was not on the Constitutional Commitee that consisted of John Dickinson, Gouverneur Morris, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Edmund Randolph, James Madison, Roger Sherman, James Wilson, and George Wythe. Why would Hamilton propose these bills in Congress if he was against a central bank? Why do you think the Fed worships Hamilton putting him on the $10, leaving Jefferson forgotten on the $2?
@LouieArrighi The Corporate tax is a non-issue. It's just another way to penalize profitability and growth. Corps CREATE jobs, and ALL the income tax, social security, unemployment and workers comp revenue that gets paid as a result. There's three basic piles of money: Salaries, Expenses and Profit. Profit ends up either as taxable income, or gets reinvested back into the company to promote more job growth. Unfortunately, taxation has become gross redistribution of income more than anything.
@plbhl there has been many measures to reduce taxes for small businesses, but the Repubs always find a way to break up big corps into S corps and ship jobs overseas. I am all for giving tax breaks to job creators for AMERICANS!
jefferson has the finest intellect of any american politican ever.when hes said that the patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel he predicted ww1 an2 100 years in the future.
@nphanlon1973 “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" was said by Samuel Johnson. In 1775. 142 years before WWI (American declaration). 166 years before WWII (American declaration).
Jefferson was one of the best "politicians" in American history though. I put "politician" in quotes because he is better described as a "statesman" in my opinion.
Classic argument here between these two great men. Hamilton argued that implied powers in the constitution were just as important as the enumerated powers whereas Jefferson believed that the constitution contained no implied powers whatsoever.
Alexander Hamilton was a spy. He worked for the Rothschilds. Big government and a central bank was a way to hijack America. We lost America when we allowed the federal reserve to start making our money. The federal reserve is a PRIVATE bank owned by the rothschilds. We need to abolish the federal reserve, political parties and the Un-Patriot Act. then we need to get rid of every politician in power and start over with a real citizen government. Wake up America!!!!!!!!!!
In 1789 US was bankrupt,with no central currency, only 5 banks existed. In 1795 after H's policies, US was prospering, 80 banks existed and we were taken seriously on the world's economic stage. The country wouldn't have lasted independently into the 19th C w/o economic stability. Jefferson died so in debt his promise to free his 200+ slaves was canceled and they were sold to pay off his creditors.
You can't compare it with today's Wall St. at ALL! And H would have condemned them.
I am Jeffersonian, but Hamilton positive attitude was to encourage the Federalist Papers, without it, no Constitution would be discussed and fully accepted in 1789. For those that visited Monticello - the living room used to have some paintings when TJ was in residence. TJ did not like Napoleon Bonaparte but had a reproduction with his face. When invited over Hamilton admitted his profound admiration for his empire, which TJ found his comment odd. (I check the bibliography if anyone wishes to).
Both Jefferson and Hamilton had interesting and important points to progress our country then. I don't think it's accurate to be blaming them for what our government looks like now though.
For one thing, they were trying to be isolationist and free from involvement with alliances then. Look at us now. A good 90% of our goods are made in China, and we've built alliances throughout the world.
I'm not much of a scholar, but I'm just saying....
I think it is interesting that, knowing how history played out, that the very discussion at this table laid the foundation for the War for Southern Independence. Now, if only we had a Swiss model for our form of government, the War for Southern Independence could have been prevented. Alas, if you don't learn from history you get the exciting opportunity to repeat it....
Because its CONTROLS the whole US economy & thereby the lives & fortunes of whole of America & it is American people who have to pay for all the money Fed "creates" out of thin air, plus, the interest incurred & YET, American public aren't allowed to know anything about its critical IMPORTANT details & fraud that it commits, not even the in the so called "audit", watch following videos
Doodoorump, you're clearly a paid shill, trying to fool people about "how good Fed is"
Gov has to pay massive interest to Fed on bonds it holds
"ackson's actions against the national bank set off a huge economic crisis, precisely because he didn't understand the nature of large scale political economy"
It set off a crisis because Jackson has pledged to end Central-Bank & its Fractional-Reserve scam so central bankers CAUSED the crisis (as they do now) to force him into submission
Listening to our founding fathers debate really helps put todays problems in perspective. Ron Paul is the reincarnation of Thomas Jefferson and Barry Soetoro is the reincarnation of Alexander Hamilton.
@DanielDamascusKimery no, barry sataro is the equivalent of a sack of shit - he is nothing more than a figurehead for the central bank/military industrial complex. nothing more than a man spending tax money and having a good time doing what the Inc. and wall st want him to do.
@Hannanstl yeah, I'm not sure he understands the federalist/anti federalist argument. I guess Andrew Jackson was a dumb cocksucker too (besides the trail of tears and the Indians)?
hamilton makes me sick- the reason we're in such despair today is because of people like him. And Adams is not much better kissing each sides butt- The South has paved the way for the whole Country....go Jefferson!!!
@anebt No. Hamilton was a realist. He knew that a prosperous economy = a strong nation. If the rest of the world gets sweatshops and grows their economies, do you think it'd be a wise decision to remain agrarian? Hey, why don't you ask Russia how that went for them. Or hey, why not ask China about what not keeping their economies modern did for them?
I hate Hamilton. Too bad we live in more of a Hamiltonian country today than Jeffersonian or Adamsan. Then we might not have our lives controlled by banks.
Now that is the truth!! Too bad we didn't listen to our founding fathers! Seems that we decided to abandon our founding principles right from the start. Sad indeed...
@sawzaw203 It's so funny that people like you will whine, bitch and moan, yet at the same time, you continue to enjoy all the advantages of this country's economy that were set up by Hamilton.
Ok, wealth is not created by excessive credit. That was the flawed thinking of Greenspan to created this crisis. Wealth depends on productivity. For example during the 19th century while wages remained stagnant, prices fell due to an increase in the nation's productive capacity thus leading to a MUCH greater standard of living by the end of century. By Hamilton's logic, Zimbabwe should be the most prosperous nation in the world.
@bonfirejovi was it true that Hamilton built one of the first power dam factories? Zimbabwe would be most prosperous nation in the world if it had clean energy, it pays for itself in the long term, solar, hydro dams..etc.
I am a huge Hamilton fan. I love the philosophy that the Federalist party espoused. I am so tired of the Jeffersonian Ron Paulites trying to take over the conservative movement. Most historians regard the Federalist as the first conservatives and the Republican party itself has been Hamiltonian for most of its history. The party was only isolationist in the 1920s and even then supported a central bank and tariffs. Republicans began as conservative nationalists and I want my party back!
Alexander Hamilton is extremely wrong when it comes to a central bank where our wealth is based on a credit system of debt. With the first central bank in America, it created within a few years 72% inflation and caused a depression in the early 1800's. When Jackson was president and abolished the central bank, America was for the first time debt free and we experienced the greatest economic boom in history! Unfortunately, Abraham Lincoln's mentor Henry Clay carried Hamilton's central banking..
@LordoftheKaty which was later followed by Woodrow Wilson's administration when they topped it off with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, completing the wondrous cycle of "avarice and corruption" as Thomas Jefferson so elegantly put it.
@livinglegend01 Yes, and now tell me why the Fed is corrupt, please. Oh, and sorry, you can't reference silly little 'documentaries' like 'Zeitgeist,' in your answer.
@Doodoorump Alright i won't the fed (technically its not even federal since government has no control over it) immediately after creation started work on its little bank notes forcing the country to borrow money to a point where there is more dept then national income so the country has to borrow more money (with interest) to pay off a dept using unconstitutional notes. Of course, they were well aware of this but the potential for avarice was too good to pass.
@livinglegend01 The government gets all the Fed's profits and appoints the head. That's a substantial amount of control. Um. The United States has almost always spent more than it has taken in. That didn't start with the Fed. And no, there's nothing unconstitutional about the fiat currency.
@Doodoorump So ther is nothing unconstitutional about a direct tax on americans? Such as the income tax wich is drawn from millions of americans pay checks? Wich , flows directly to the fed to cover the intrest that they charge to the government for borrowing money?
@Drago2600 Nope. Income tax is in the constitution as well. :) And, actually, the government pays the Fed nothing. The Fed turns over all its profits to the government.
@Doodoorump of course the people are to blame too for not getting off their lazy asses and doing something about it like Jackson did, but the point is corruption is still there.
(forgive the punctuation errors on the first part, ran out of typing space)
Jackson's actions against the national bank set off a huge economic crisis, precisely because he didn't understand the nature of large scale political economy.
Hamilton is a major reason why this nation is a corporate banana republic today. Big government and a central bank is a contradiction of this nations founding principles. However Hamilton was able to use fear to pressure his peers into accepting a large government and central bank. Fear of war or failure is what doomed our nation from the very beginning. I am disgusted that someone would say Hamilton won this debate. Have you looked around lately? How is big government working?
To my fellow Ron Paul supporters who belive that Hamilton was a corportist and a to much Goverment person all your doing is showing how bad of a historian you are. The debt that Hamilton wanted to put on the States dont equal the debt crises we are in today. Those are two completley different debts and each happened for two completly different unrelated reasons. It will help to keep the Revolution alive if some of us become more intellgent about the founders before discussing there importance
Obviously Hamilton is dead so he has no direct impact on today. But his views and actions of that time still exist and he has a very large impact on current economic policy. I agree people should be educated on subjects so as not to represent certain people incorrectly. I do disagree with you that the debts of then and today are completely different. We had a chance to make a very different world, Hamilton stained that opportunity by his centralist ideals.
We are in debt today because of spending with not enough revenue, borrowing without rasing enough revenue to pay back the loans, and our rep and senators answering to the aristocrats on Wall Street instead of the Common American. Thats not how Hamiltons debt was established. Hamilton was correct when he said that the best way for a agriculture economy to prosper is through international trade. But you need theinternational currency first .
so he established his debt by borrowing from State Banks and charging the States the finaicial cost of the war so they could afford to pay back there bank loans. Jefferson problem was the fear that the treasury department will have a monopoly over the monetary system and money lending
If you control the printing of a nations currency then you control that nation. Such power should only be in the hands of electable offices. If you create a national bank then you have just created a monopoly instantly. Long ago man began with this credit and debt foolishness. It was only a matter of time before man's nature caused a credit/debt system to fail. When you live above your means then you are destined to live beneath them. Unification can have bad consequences.
Jefferson problem with a national debt that if not payed off was that it will make the treasury a monopoly over the monetary system and money lending. Which will cause the Federal goverment to grow so big that they will answer to the aristrocrats instead of the Common American. and therefore will cause similer problems to which instigated the French Revolution. So i belive they both made accurate points and this is also why the two debts are different
@shawnmichaelfan Debt is debt no matter what intent is behind its creation. This global interconnection of debt is disgusting and I simply cant accept it as something that was needed to by the US to survive. Such decisions made off fear and assumption is dangerous and often leads to mistakes. It may have helped produce our modern world but that has negative side effects as well. I am more of an idealist so naturally I support Jefferson's views above Hamilton.
Oh yes i totally agree. Todays global interconnection of debt is immoral and uncalled for and is killing are economy. We are not going to go into a 2nd great depression we are going to go into our economy going into near extinction. And bringing other important economis down with it because of the interconnection. Jefferson is right we dont need a monoply over the monetary system and im glad Paul is trying to get competiton the Fed needs since he already admit it probably wont end soon
@Jononutoob Hamilton was more down to earth and realistic. Jefferson was great too, don't get me wrong but a little bit too idealistic. In the end we all knew that Hamilton voted for Jefferson in the house of rep. tipping the balance out of Burr's hands, probably got him shot too but Hamilton didn't punk out from a duel.
@Wolfsbane909 Jesus Christ was an idealist too. I will choose an idealist over a realist any chance I get. Realists thinking they are being real when they arent is the reason most of our problems exist.
@Jononutoob well, i heard that Hamilton was one of the first to begin an hydro type factory near a river? Also its funny how Jefferson owned 200 slaves, while Hamilton didn't own any, heh
@Wolfsbane909 I am not aware of any hydro plant from Hamilton. It wouldnt shock me as Hamilton was a smart man. And I am not seeing your point regarding the slaves. I dont care to judge a man's ideals by counting how many slaves they owned. Jefferson had a quote, "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Because of words like this I find Jefferson to be a far better representative of American founding principles than Hamilton.
@Jononutoob well everyone has their own favourite founding father, I think the note speaks for itself, jefferson is on the two dollar bill, while Hamilton is on the ten dollar bill. So that would mean that Hamilton is 5x times more valuable than Jefferson! Boo-Yah! lol
@Wolfsbane909 Haha. If you give any value to the dollar then your argument can maybe have merit. I doubt Hamilton nor Jefferson would want their faces on those rags. lol
Also Lincoln must be pissed considering he is on a penny.
But on a serious note my favorite founding father was Jefferson because of his story of dying on the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. You have to have spirit to die on that day 50 years later.
@Wolfsbane909 You mean after Hamilton lived in the North and Jefferson lived in Virginia. Jefferson wrote into the original draft of the Declaration of Independence that slavery was a tyrannical practice and trade advocated by a tyrranical king. He only kept his slaves because he said that they would be persecuted or even ran back into slavery. When he died, his slaves mourned his death, he wasn't a cruel master.
@Jononutoob "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." ~Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson had it right over 200 years ago. Hamilton was the neo-con of his day.
@Jononutoob only a slave master would be able to warn others of the threat of being enslaved,the words" wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them" stand out the most, sure a inslaver may feed and house you but he is alienating you your unalienable rights, how ironic that jefferson made such a foolish hypocrtical statement
@prowlifik Jefferson was no saint. He had slaves and even promised them freedom but never could give it because he was in debt. We are all hypocrites in some way. This doesnt make it right. But while he was wrong he also is responsible for some of the legal openings used to allow blacks and all minorities the rights they have today. We must remember that this was the world then, America is different now. Jefferson and others gave us the headroom to stand up!
@Jononutoob so its a do as a say not as i do type of situation ? as a black american i can asure you that there is mentaly somthing wrong with a person who feels compelled to take off the chians of restriction to only put them on another, and to your notion that he promised freedom to his slaves that only applyed to the children he had with sally, so i dont know how you can reguard your own children as a slave, but he also freed a few slaves in his WILL, he couldnt use them where he was going
@prowlifik Jefferson did not take any chains off anyone to put on another. Our founders knew the Bill of Rights was going to conflict with slavery. They didnt flat out end slavery because that would have created opposition to the revolution. However it took far too long for it to end.
@Jononutoob jefferson took the proverbial chains of england off of the colonist by writing the decloration,"I refuse to take off the chains of great britain to only don those of france"-John adams, the chains he put on where those he put on every slave born at monticello.
@prowlifik So you are blaming Jefferson for putting chains on any slave born on his land? Oh please. What should Jefferson had done? Should he have not worked for revolution because it is hypocritical to you?
@Jononutoob hmmmm, KEY words HIS LAND, your responsible for anything that takes place at your house, and its sad that you dont find the hypocrisy in a man that wants freedom from one nation while he is enslaving an entire race.
@prowlifik I do see the hypocrisy of it. I also see hypocrisy in all people. What we disagree on is whether we should call Jefferson a racist white devil or whether he is very responsible for any civil rights in this country. The man spoke of freedom and independence his entire life and you forget that because he had slaves? You dont have to like the guy but you cant argue what he did in all Americans favor. And I am not pro slavery. Are you?
@Jononutoob i see you havent been paying attention, as i stated before iam BLACK so there for i find it very difficult for I any black person to stand on the platform of pro slavery.
@prowlifik The fact that you thought it was a serious question is a perfect representation of this discussion. I dont care if you are blue skinned, skin color does NOT represent what a person may believe. The act of saying all blacks are against an idea is like saying all whites are supportive of an idea. Like I said in my earlier post, all men are hypocrites in some way. Im not willing to write you off just like I wouldn't write off Jefferson.
@prowlifik at the time of this debate, there was still slavery in the north. i don't think hamilton was any more sympathetic to the cause of slaves than was jefferson.
@drvn8 yes but we are talking about OWNING slaves TJ owned them, its one thing for slavery to go on but to be apart of the slave trade is very diffrent. just because somthing is going on doesnt make it right.
@prowlifik good point. and even though jefferson was against the international slave trade, he did own them and evidently had some very insulting views on them. it's uncertain whether or not hamilton owned any, but his views on blacks seem to have been much more egalitarian. while it's doubtful that he prioritized the slavery issue nearly as much as he did the financial promise of the u.s., at least he made no distinctions based on race as to who might be objectified in the face of finance.
@shawnmichaelfan i couldn't agree more, their words are already very well documented and their meetings as well. Hamilton's ideas were different, the type of debt is very different indeed. I didn't even know who he was at first, he has a very strong presence in his eyes, an man with a "dramatic" brow, I thought he was just another scottsman, which also makes him my favourite, he too is an immigrant to america too.
Hamilton - the first neocon
IcyScythe 2 months ago
There is a sadness over how many people get their historical understanding from loosely based historical movies, quote-mining, bloggers and politicians. Anyone who READS THE ACTUAL Papers of A. Hamilton cannot but shake their head at misrepresentation that goes on today. Hamilton's financial policies NEVER called for a PERPETUAL DEBT, the First Natl Bank was not a central bank(read the charter), & he emphatically stated that any LAW against the Cons. or Natural Rights is VOID.
Kierkegaard73 2 months ago
It would seem self evident that given the current state of affairs,, that JEFFERSON was right!!!!!!!!!!!!!
collapseprep101 2 months ago
Washington looks so lost in the conversation lol. Honestly, he wasn't a great tactician, or politician, why the hell is so much importance centralised on him?
TheSirPrise 4 months ago
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@TheSirPrise
"Washington looks so lost in the conversation lol. Honestly, he wasn't a great tactician, or politician, why the hell is so much importance centralised on him?"
Because at this point in history Washington is essentially the King of the United States.
patio87 3 months ago
@TheSirPrise It's because he showed leadership when it was needed the most and that led to him gaining absolute trust from the people of America. To be a good leader you don't need to a be a politician or tactician, nowadays that just leads to corruption. To make it short, people saw him as a trustworthy and honest man who wanted the best for his country. That is how it should be now, and all the time.
jesusfeak2310 3 months ago
@jesusfeak2310 So essential he was the template of and ideal American; plain speaking, loyal and trustworhy?
TheSirPrise 3 months ago
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@jesusfeak2310 So essential he was the template of and ideal American; plain speaking, loyal and trustworthy?
TheSirPrise 3 months ago
In the end they made a deal...Hamilton got his bank, Jefferson had the capitol relocated to the Potomac River
oniondemon 4 months ago
Jefferson was right,
Hamilton was wrong,
And Adams' compromise mentality brought on Civil War (2:06) and all the problems that our country has today.
The North and South were and are too different to coexist under the same government.
A house divided can't stand, but two separate houses can.
ConfederatePatriot 4 months ago 6
@ConfederatePatriot We don't need to become 2 seperate nations to preserve our state autonomy. We need only to return to the constitution,especially the 10th amendment. Doing that would allow us to stay together as a nation of nations without losing our freedom.
sleedolfine15 4 months ago
@sleedolfine15 That would be great if possible, but I fear neither idea will matter soon.
ConfederatePatriot 4 months ago
@sleedolfine15 easy for you to say cause the south isnt forcing its views on the north it has been the opposite since 1865
Southernjuggalo63 3 months ago
@Southernjuggalo63 The division in this country isn't between north and south,but between the victorious Hamiltonian big government philosophy--which has adherence all over the nation and Jefferson's small government point of view which is not limited to the south. We need to take this country back--all of it back,from the authoritarians who have messed up this great nation. Ron Paul 2012!!
sleedolfine15 3 months ago
@ConfederatePatriot What brought on the civil war was the south's demand for slavery. I see revisionists are alive and well.
kcufmalsi 2 months ago
@kcufmalsi Government (Public) Education is the "revisionist" and has been since they won the War. It is evident that you are only one of the common casualties of our propaganda system. You should do your own personal research instead of believing everything you hear. You don't have to dig very deep into 19th century quotes to know that the War Between The States was not over slavery and that the Bible Belt (South) is not hateful, but hospitable.
"God Save The South" - CS Anthem
ConfederatePatriot 2 months ago
@ConfederatePatriot I really wonder if that war could have been avoided.
tikletik 2 months ago
@tikletik Of course it could have... but when asked "Why not let the South go in peace?", Lincoln replied "I can't let them go, who would pay for the government?"
ConfederatePatriot 2 months ago
drvn8 yeah fair point.where would america be without cajan food and mardi gras.
nphanlon1973 4 months ago
thomas jefferson at 2.20 predicts the obama bailout
nphanlon1973 4 months ago
@nphanlon1973 and at 0:53 the louisiana purchase
drvn8 4 months ago
@nphanlon1973 ..and the War Between States aka "the Civil War."
HansBooBee 4 months ago
2:14- 2:22 THERE IT IS!
Jononutoob 5 months ago
"Freedom vs. Big Government": what the poster of this video is missing is the first part of the miniseries, what Adams witnesses from the people of Boston. He needs to examine it along with James Mill's "The Tyranny of the Majority" and then say that a balance between individual and centralized powers is not a necessity. The question is and always has been, "where is that balance"?
wintereis57 5 months ago
LMAO Hamilton practically wrote the constitution, this arguement was not between "Big Government" vs "Freedom", It was between the ideaology behind the constitution (Hamilton) vs the ideaology behind the Articles of Confederation (Jefferson), Guess what? Hamilton was right.
projectbrumaire 5 months ago
@projectbrumaire
Madison wrote the Constitution, then a few years later decided Jefferson was right and left the Federalists to help Jefferson...
Robertz1986 5 months ago
@projectbrumaire Hamilton has a bad rap based on misguided support from modern big government democrats. They believe that Hamilton supported their modern ideology. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hamilton's great failure was a lack of foresight. He was perhaps a bit naive. He did not anticipate the groundswell of disdain for freedom that comes from a population kept as pets by benevolent big government. The founders ALL agreed upon the principles of liberty that we take for granted.
DrRockso99 5 months ago
@DrRockso99
That is not true at all. Democrats today share the same ideas as Hamilton where as back in the early 1900s and 1800s, it was the Democratic Party that supported the free-market and free trade capitalism and gold and state rights and the republican party supported protectionism, modernization, taxes, government involvement in infrastructure and things like public education and research and development. Both political parties switched ideologies
cinemafreak666 2 months ago
@projectbrumaire Also, it's important that you get your facts strait. The constitutions was principally authored by James Madison, not Alexander Hamilton.
DrRockso99 5 months ago
This proves that the American dialect of English can be beautiful sounding if you use it correctly.
This movie literally made me want to turn off the TV and grab a book and start reading.
mrceebees14 5 months ago
the guy who plays jefferson is good looking:) sadly the real jefferson was ugly lol
CaligirlSofia 5 months ago
Washington was very good to his slaves (not that it excuses slavery but it is a trait in his favor) and freed them upon his death. Jefferson, too, spoke of abolition and introduced measures to try to free the slaves although they never passed.
The ideas these men had, and were able to compile and put down on paper to protect state's rights and individual rights was simply revolutionary for the time. This was a world ruled by monarchs and these men devised a government of, for and by the people.
Scouthead 7 months ago
Jefferson you are the shit. Jefferson Come Back!
connorqb17 7 months ago 3
I hate politics.
mrceebees14 7 months ago
Hamilton is the won who practically created our constitution with the Articles of Confederation, show some respect.
projectbrumaire 7 months ago
Hypocrisy at its best. USA
terrinyc29 8 months ago 2
@terrinyc29 How so?
CarlChub 7 months ago
@CarlChub They speak of freedom while many of them own slaves
terrinyc29 7 months ago
@terrinyc29 So did the majority of the world. That was just the mindset then. And many of them didn't own slaves or were abolitionists. This country was not the only country that owned slaves. They were not hypocrites.
CarlChub 7 months ago
@CarlChub
This country was not the only Slave owning Country but was the only Country of Chattel slavery. This is the only country where HUMAN BEING who were enslaved were deemed as not being human. They had ripped from them not only their freedom but their culture, language, homeland and their God. Treated not only by the slave owning class but written in the law books as 3/5th of a person. There is no where else in the world that treated slaves as Horrifically as this Hypocritical Land.
terrinyc29 6 months ago
@terrinyc29 I take that you don't like this land(usa) because of its past sins....so every other nation who kills others folks and continue to enslave humans are better? America was wrong...but surely have made up for that sin....I would rather live as a black man in this country than any other country of the face of the earth...
norr4636 5 months ago
@norr4636 How did this Country make up for its past sins? Slavery and the "Race Issue" is still an untouched topic. Most people black and white are still fearful to speak on it in diverse company. I'm not quite sure which land you speak of that has made good on its past sins. Germany has made up for its past sins in some ways and other countries as well. Me loving or hating this country has nothing to do with hypocrisy being the cornerstone and foundation of this society.
terrinyc29 5 months ago
@terrinyc29 the slaves are dead and gone. who would we give reparations to? youre a moron.
labartic 5 months ago
@terrinyc29
Our country paid for slavery with Civil War... almost 700,000 Americans died and most of our major cities were either damaged or destroyed as a consequence of the war (Southern cities destroyed by Northern armies, with northern cities damaged in the draft riots). Anyone who ever owned slaves lost their "property" without compensation, while we under took a Constitutional amendment to ban slavery.. I think ending a problem at GREAT national expense of blood and material counts...
Robertz1986 5 months ago
@terrinyc29 Americans are afraid to speak on the subject of race today, because all opinions that don't fall in line with the far left ideology of endless redistribution, will be demonized. Everybody is tired of being called racist by the left for suggesting that perhaps it's time we all stood on our own two feet. Germany can hardly be said to have dealt with their issues when their war on free speech exists literally in the courts, as opposed to just within our politically correct culture.
DrRockso99 5 months ago
@DrRockso99
It's amazing how you try to attack the left even though the left and liberalism is what created our nation. Liberal ideals is what started the American revolution and our constitution. But its funny how you preach about all these conservative things then talk about Alexander Hamilton when today he would be considered a left wing socialist because of his support for taxes, protectionism, government funding for infrastructure and public education and more.
cinemafreak666 2 months ago
@cinemafreak666 Liberalism is not "left wing", you either want Authoritarianism or Libertarianism, they can both have Left/Right Spending attitudes. The Left/Right is with regard to spending. You can hardly call Communism a Liberal mindset can you? Social Democrats (left wing spending wise) have wide ranging views socially for example. I think its a misconception, and also America shouldnt call Democrats "Liberals", your democratic party ranges from Social Democrats - right wing Centrists
Baldwynmayhem 4 days ago
@Baldwynmayhem
I never said political parties are left wing or right wing, but they have ideologies and both parties have moderates, liberals, and conservatives all in each party but Liberalism is left wing.
cinemafreak666 4 days ago
@Baldwynmayhem
The whole term of left wing vs right wing came to be during the American and French Revolutions when they divided congress and/or Parliament up and people who favored the revolution and Enlightment ideas aka Liberals would be on the left and people who favored the Monarchy would be on the right.
Communism isn't a liberal mind set, it is a far left ideology just like Fascism, Monarchism, Feudalism, etc is far right wing.
cinemafreak666 4 days ago
@Baldwynmayhem
You can't label things as left wing or right wing or liberalism or conservatism because of spending. Both sides have spending, both side have taxes, both sides have government. Its issues not if someone spends, taxes, or increases or shrinks governments because both sides do. Its about issues. You can't put things in two categories like Authoritarianism or Libertarianism because that is not how reality works, you can't fit things in two categories.
cinemafreak666 4 days ago
@cinemafreak666 Well I'm afraid spending or not spending comes under Left or Right wing definitely. Problem is people have been that brainwashed by the media, that not many know what the go is anymore. Your right it does come down to issues, and realistically because it's a 2 party system and there are ever increasing blurry lines between the left-right paradigm, it seems meaningless to argue about petty issues instead of fix the problems, agreed, but there still is realistically a demarcation
Baldwynmayhem 4 days ago
@Baldwynmayhem
There is left, there is right, and there is center. And each side has variables. You can be a conservative and believe in Global Warming and Evolution. You can be a liberal a and support war policies. You can be a moderate and have a combination of both the left and the right. We have a two party system but the two party system has a bunch of diverse people, both parties have moderates, liberals, conservatives, etc.
cinemafreak666 4 days ago
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terrinyc29 6 months ago
@terrinyc29: Slavery in the Americas was an economic system we inherited from the Europeans, we didn't invent it. Would you have rather England maintained posession of North America? Just look at how well of all the "free" British slaves are now doing in say Jamaca (roll eyes). The USA is still the BEST country on the planet for opportunity for anyone who really wants to EARN it.
espada9 7 months ago
@terrinyc29 Think of it this way: Slavery is probably at least 10,000 years old. Africa has been involved since the beginning, Europeans perfected it. 235 years ago it was America who began the VERY FIRST conversation about abolishing the institution, and then legally did so 89 years later. I'd say that makes America heroic, not hypocritical.
plbhl 6 months ago
@plbhl The land you say "Perfected" the evil system of Chattel slavery is the only one that treated slaves as less than Human, striped them of Everything and OWNED them and their descendants for life. Europe and others that practice slavery with people who looked like themselves (usually) their system was not so EVIL. European slaves were not deemed as less than by the government they lived under. Slavery in the Americas was the only form of slavery based solely on skin color.
terrinyc29 6 months ago
@terrinyc29 Sorry but the cliche of the "kinder gentler" slavery of Europe and Africa is PC college kid stuff. African's who sold their enemy tribe prisoners into the Trans-Atlantic system knew what they were doing. The idea that slaves in other systems experienced "slavery light" is just something you want to believe, and not based on actual research. I'm sure the children who were born into and died in ancient Egyptian copper mines having never been outside would take no comfort in their race.
plbhl 6 months ago
@terrinyc29 The ancient Jews were the first people to attempt to humanize the slave class by granting rights to the Sabbath rest and freedom after 7 years. Regardless of the comparisons of Americas vs others (and ALL were horrific) the point of topic was America as a nation, inspired by Jefferson, was the first to eventually confront it's past and abolish the institution. MANY WHITE Americans also died then and during the civil rights era for their belief in what is right.
plbhl 6 months ago
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@plbhl America is Truly the Land of Hypocrisy. People like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington fight for their freedom while OWNING HUMANS........so sick
terrinyc29 6 months ago
Hamilton wouldn't be big government by today's standards. You can't really question the mans devotion to the constitution: he helped write it. His influence in the drafting process indicates that he did value the idea of limited government.
mboomer93 8 months ago
Ron Paul is Thomas Jefferson? He had better not make it public - some people may not take kindly to the fact Ron Paul owned slaves in a past life.
augustuslxiii 8 months ago
@augustuslxiii lol
Scouthead 7 months ago
all we have is a bunch of Hamiltons in our government today. And only one Jefferson, he goes by the name of Ron Paul.
jtizz711 8 months ago
Neither a borrower nor a lender be,
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
William Shakespeare Hamlet Act I Scene III
vederchi 9 months ago
Jefferson was naaive though, the French Revolution was the ultimate starting point of "big gov't" it was Hamilton, not Jefferson who saw the dangers...
coolerking04 9 months ago
@coolerking04 He he, Hamilton running (more like ruining) the economy in backwards pshycology?
masterskyrunner 8 months ago
why have all of our jobs gone overseas?? Alexander Hamilton would have explained what a protectionist policy is. Alexander Hamilton never supported a central bank. that's BS. show me the document that states this. Alexander Hamilton was dead in 1913. Ron Paul is the enemy that supports big oil and is against protectionism. Paul is a cocksucker elite who doesn't weant to regulate the banks. why don't all the Ron Paul sheep drive off a cliff so we can change direction.
LouieArrighi 10 months ago
@LouieArrighi wow. what a terrible argument. you start well but then end like a typical liberal. avoid the subject and start namecalling. A protectionist policy is just another way to redistribute wealth. Our jobs have gone overseas due to government interference and regulation in business. High corporate tax rates and minimum wage standards (somewhat) are to blame. These taxes don't only effect employment, but the pricing of goods and services which causes standard of living costs to go up
godmathias 9 months ago
@godmathias name one regulation that prevents small businesses from competing. corporate tax rates are one of the lowest ever. not sure, but you seem like an ideologue to me. as far as protectionism, I'm not sure you understand the concept.
LouieArrighi 9 months ago
@LouieArrighi Protectionism - the economic policy of restraining trade between states through methods such as tariffs on imported goods, restrictive quotas, and a variety of other government regulations designed to discourage imports and prevent foreign take-over of domestic markets and companies.
masterskyrunner 8 months ago
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LouieArrighi 8 months ago
@masterskyrunner Protectionism-Bring our jobs back home!
LouieArrighi 8 months ago
@LouieArrighi Non-interventioinism - our jobs never would've left
And yes, Alexander Hamilton did support a central bank, why else did he get us to establish a national debt.
He's an elite that has been ruining this country since it was founded, but then Jackson killed the bank... yay, then the Fed brought it back.
masterskyrunner 8 months ago
@masterskyrunner Hamilton was an elite? LOL he was lower to middle class. the other founders were elitists.
LouieArrighi 8 months ago
@LouieArrighi Hamilton was an elite. He was a power monger that believed that power could easily gained when the responsibility of the government is increased, giving nearly dictatorial powers to the government. Read up on some history will ya? The First Bank Charter is what they are arguing about in this scene. The First Bank Charter incurred all debts and even economic policy into a central body, in order to increase responsibility. Jackson killed the bank, our national debt was 29K, from 48M.
masterskyrunner 8 months ago
@masterskyrunner ...and where can I find these so called facts that you type? it's just made up bullshit from Mises, the thinktank that gets paid millions to create bullshit talking points.
LouieArrighi 8 months ago
@LouieArrighi Wow. You need to open up a history book sometime, since you've never even heard of the First Bank Charter. It lasted for 20 years and missed recharter in 1811 by one vote.
masterskyrunner 8 months ago
@masterskyrunner he also wrote the Constitution and definitely would have been against a PRIVATE Fed.
LouieArrighi 8 months ago
@LouieArrighi No, actually he was not on the Constitutional Commitee that consisted of John Dickinson, Gouverneur Morris, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Edmund Randolph, James Madison, Roger Sherman, James Wilson, and George Wythe. Why would Hamilton propose these bills in Congress if he was against a central bank? Why do you think the Fed worships Hamilton putting him on the $10, leaving Jefferson forgotten on the $2?
masterskyrunner 8 months ago
@LouieArrighi The Corporate tax is a non-issue. It's just another way to penalize profitability and growth. Corps CREATE jobs, and ALL the income tax, social security, unemployment and workers comp revenue that gets paid as a result. There's three basic piles of money: Salaries, Expenses and Profit. Profit ends up either as taxable income, or gets reinvested back into the company to promote more job growth. Unfortunately, taxation has become gross redistribution of income more than anything.
plbhl 6 months ago
@plbhl there has been many measures to reduce taxes for small businesses, but the Repubs always find a way to break up big corps into S corps and ship jobs overseas. I am all for giving tax breaks to job creators for AMERICANS!
LouieArrighi 6 months ago
my bad
nphanlon1973 10 months ago
The monied interests lie in the north..." the roots of the civil war
ORACLE063 10 months ago
jefferson has the finest intellect of any american politican ever.when hes said that the patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel he predicted ww1 an2 100 years in the future.
nphanlon1973 10 months ago
@nphanlon1973 “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" was said by Samuel Johnson. In 1775. 142 years before WWI (American declaration). 166 years before WWII (American declaration).
Jefferson was one of the best "politicians" in American history though. I put "politician" in quotes because he is better described as a "statesman" in my opinion.
strych97 10 months ago
Interesting to see sectionalism already at work in the 1790's (or end of 1780's?).
Xerxes2005 11 months ago
Podcast the "Thomas Jefferson Hour" it is an excellent podcast if you would like to know more about TJ
skydive7273x 11 months ago
Classic argument here between these two great men. Hamilton argued that implied powers in the constitution were just as important as the enumerated powers whereas Jefferson believed that the constitution contained no implied powers whatsoever.
MaiLingDolly 11 months ago
God bless Aaron Burr.
JesusDillinger 1 year ago
@JesusDillinger You don't like Alexander Hamilton, either? I agree with Thomas Jefferson completely.
catclaw357 1 year ago
Alexander Hamilton was a spy. He worked for the Rothschilds. Big government and a central bank was a way to hijack America. We lost America when we allowed the federal reserve to start making our money. The federal reserve is a PRIVATE bank owned by the rothschilds. We need to abolish the federal reserve, political parties and the Un-Patriot Act. then we need to get rid of every politician in power and start over with a real citizen government. Wake up America!!!!!!!!!!
baidey420 1 year ago
So much injustice has been done in the name of preserving the union.
ErikMartin81 1 year ago
Washington looks totally uncomfortable at the end :)
uggy3456 1 year ago
In 1789 US was bankrupt,with no central currency, only 5 banks existed. In 1795 after H's policies, US was prospering, 80 banks existed and we were taken seriously on the world's economic stage. The country wouldn't have lasted independently into the 19th C w/o economic stability. Jefferson died so in debt his promise to free his 200+ slaves was canceled and they were sold to pay off his creditors.
You can't compare it with today's Wall St. at ALL! And H would have condemned them.
vigwig 1 year ago
I am Jeffersonian, but Hamilton positive attitude was to encourage the Federalist Papers, without it, no Constitution would be discussed and fully accepted in 1789. For those that visited Monticello - the living room used to have some paintings when TJ was in residence. TJ did not like Napoleon Bonaparte but had a reproduction with his face. When invited over Hamilton admitted his profound admiration for his empire, which TJ found his comment odd. (I check the bibliography if anyone wishes to).
LewisMarkMonticello 1 year ago
its funny how they sent jefferson to france whilst they were passing on these horrible laws koz jefferson is a real egalletarian
timetochilli 1 year ago
Both Jefferson and Hamilton had interesting and important points to progress our country then. I don't think it's accurate to be blaming them for what our government looks like now though.
For one thing, they were trying to be isolationist and free from involvement with alliances then. Look at us now. A good 90% of our goods are made in China, and we've built alliances throughout the world.
I'm not much of a scholar, but I'm just saying....
Cheshirekat94 1 year ago
I think it is interesting that, knowing how history played out, that the very discussion at this table laid the foundation for the War for Southern Independence. Now, if only we had a Swiss model for our form of government, the War for Southern Independence could have been prevented. Alas, if you don't learn from history you get the exciting opportunity to repeat it....
Boethius51250 1 year ago
"now tell me why the Fed is corrupt, please"
Because its CONTROLS the whole US economy & thereby the lives & fortunes of whole of America & it is American people who have to pay for all the money Fed "creates" out of thin air, plus, the interest incurred & YET, American public aren't allowed to know anything about its critical IMPORTANT details & fraud that it commits, not even the in the so called "audit", watch following videos
>>> watch?v=-mnYmMaB2AA
>>> watch?v=wNIvUd50wRQ
lomocan 1 year ago
Doodoorump, you're clearly a paid shill, trying to fool people about "how good Fed is"
Gov has to pay massive interest to Fed on bonds it holds
"ackson's actions against the national bank set off a huge economic crisis, precisely because he didn't understand the nature of large scale political economy"
It set off a crisis because Jackson has pledged to end Central-Bank & its Fractional-Reserve scam so central bankers CAUSED the crisis (as they do now) to force him into submission
lomocan 1 year ago
Listening to our founding fathers debate really helps put todays problems in perspective. Ron Paul is the reincarnation of Thomas Jefferson and Barry Soetoro is the reincarnation of Alexander Hamilton.
DanielDamascusKimery 1 year ago 2
@DanielDamascusKimery no, barry sataro is the equivalent of a sack of shit - he is nothing more than a figurehead for the central bank/military industrial complex. nothing more than a man spending tax money and having a good time doing what the Inc. and wall st want him to do.
Hannanstl 10 months ago
@Hannanstl Exactly that's why I compared him to Alexander Hamilton.
DanielDamascusKimery 10 months ago
@Hannanstl yeah, I'm not sure he understands the federalist/anti federalist argument. I guess Andrew Jackson was a dumb cocksucker too (besides the trail of tears and the Indians)?
Hannanstl 10 months ago
hamilton makes me sick- the reason we're in such despair today is because of people like him. And Adams is not much better kissing each sides butt- The South has paved the way for the whole Country....go Jefferson!!!
jbsouth16 1 year ago
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BenettFreeman 1 year ago
who's the 3'er parrt of the conversation John Adams?
semiretired86 1 year ago
@anebt No. Hamilton was a realist. He knew that a prosperous economy = a strong nation. If the rest of the world gets sweatshops and grows their economies, do you think it'd be a wise decision to remain agrarian? Hey, why don't you ask Russia how that went for them. Or hey, why not ask China about what not keeping their economies modern did for them?
Doodoorump 1 year ago
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I hate Hamilton. Too bad we live in more of a Hamiltonian country today than Jeffersonian or Adamsan. Then we might not have our lives controlled by banks.
esoberanis1 1 year ago
Jefferson got it right.... 2:14 to 2:32
esoberanis1 1 year ago
@esoberanis1
Now that is the truth!! Too bad we didn't listen to our founding fathers! Seems that we decided to abandon our founding principles right from the start. Sad indeed...
sawzaw203 1 year ago
@sawzaw203 It's so funny that people like you will whine, bitch and moan, yet at the same time, you continue to enjoy all the advantages of this country's economy that were set up by Hamilton.
Doodoorump 1 year ago
@esoberanis1 Yeah, wow he managed to whine about people having money. What genius. Give me a break.
Doodoorump 1 year ago
END THE FED!
IcedEarth426 1 year ago
Funny, Adams was the cooler head in this little exchange. Hamilton, was an a-hole. Smart but full of his self importance.
brisco42 1 year ago
Hamilton's Curse.
RandallSteen 1 year ago
Ok, wealth is not created by excessive credit. That was the flawed thinking of Greenspan to created this crisis. Wealth depends on productivity. For example during the 19th century while wages remained stagnant, prices fell due to an increase in the nation's productive capacity thus leading to a MUCH greater standard of living by the end of century. By Hamilton's logic, Zimbabwe should be the most prosperous nation in the world.
bonfirejovi 1 year ago 9
@bonfirejovi was it true that Hamilton built one of the first power dam factories? Zimbabwe would be most prosperous nation in the world if it had clean energy, it pays for itself in the long term, solar, hydro dams..etc.
Wolfsbane909 1 year ago
gayy actingggg
jackuy12345 1 year ago
1:48
Jefferson is like "WHAT!" when he looks at Adams.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
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I am a huge Hamilton fan. I love the philosophy that the Federalist party espoused. I am so tired of the Jeffersonian Ron Paulites trying to take over the conservative movement. Most historians regard the Federalist as the first conservatives and the Republican party itself has been Hamiltonian for most of its history. The party was only isolationist in the 1920s and even then supported a central bank and tariffs. Republicans began as conservative nationalists and I want my party back!
TylerHinds 1 year ago
Alexander Hamilton is extremely wrong when it comes to a central bank where our wealth is based on a credit system of debt. With the first central bank in America, it created within a few years 72% inflation and caused a depression in the early 1800's. When Jackson was president and abolished the central bank, America was for the first time debt free and we experienced the greatest economic boom in history! Unfortunately, Abraham Lincoln's mentor Henry Clay carried Hamilton's central banking..
LordoftheKaty 1 year ago
@LordoftheKaty which was later followed by Woodrow Wilson's administration when they topped it off with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, completing the wondrous cycle of "avarice and corruption" as Thomas Jefferson so elegantly put it.
livinglegend01 1 year ago
@livinglegend01 Yes, and now tell me why the Fed is corrupt, please. Oh, and sorry, you can't reference silly little 'documentaries' like 'Zeitgeist,' in your answer.
Doodoorump 1 year ago
@Doodoorump Alright i won't the fed (technically its not even federal since government has no control over it) immediately after creation started work on its little bank notes forcing the country to borrow money to a point where there is more dept then national income so the country has to borrow more money (with interest) to pay off a dept using unconstitutional notes. Of course, they were well aware of this but the potential for avarice was too good to pass.
livinglegend01 1 year ago
@livinglegend01 The government gets all the Fed's profits and appoints the head. That's a substantial amount of control. Um. The United States has almost always spent more than it has taken in. That didn't start with the Fed. And no, there's nothing unconstitutional about the fiat currency.
Doodoorump 1 year ago
@Doodoorump So ther is nothing unconstitutional about a direct tax on americans? Such as the income tax wich is drawn from millions of americans pay checks? Wich , flows directly to the fed to cover the intrest that they charge to the government for borrowing money?
Drago2600 1 year ago
@Drago2600 Nope. Income tax is in the constitution as well. :) And, actually, the government pays the Fed nothing. The Fed turns over all its profits to the government.
Doodoorump 1 year ago
@Doodoorump of course the people are to blame too for not getting off their lazy asses and doing something about it like Jackson did, but the point is corruption is still there.
(forgive the punctuation errors on the first part, ran out of typing space)
livinglegend01 1 year ago
@livinglegend01
Jackson's actions against the national bank set off a huge economic crisis, precisely because he didn't understand the nature of large scale political economy.
Doodoorump 1 year ago
@Doodoorump live free or die, your either free or your not. ot doesnt matter now though we have been debt slaves since 1812.
CAinfowarrior 1 year ago
@CAinfowarrior And you clearly don't understand the nature of political economy, so I'll leave you to your mantras and maxims.
Doodoorump 1 year ago
@Doodoorump i guess i'll just have to keep listening to Ron Paul and not you doo doo. it's cool.
CAinfowarrior 1 year ago
@CAinfowarrior I don't even think you're processing much of what he says, either. It's a lot more than 'LIVE FREE OR DIE'
Doodoorump 1 year ago
"the greater the government's responsibility, the greater it's authority "
sealhunta 1 year ago
took america long enough to get a central bank
sealhunta 1 year ago
lol, america doesn't have a central bank, they are so primitive.
sealhunta 1 year ago
Hamilton just gave Jefferson a great schooling....excellent show.
WiseGuy5674 1 year ago
@WiseGuy5674
Hamilton is a major reason why this nation is a corporate banana republic today. Big government and a central bank is a contradiction of this nations founding principles. However Hamilton was able to use fear to pressure his peers into accepting a large government and central bank. Fear of war or failure is what doomed our nation from the very beginning. I am disgusted that someone would say Hamilton won this debate. Have you looked around lately? How is big government working?
Jononutoob 1 year ago 24
To my fellow Ron Paul supporters who belive that Hamilton was a corportist and a to much Goverment person all your doing is showing how bad of a historian you are. The debt that Hamilton wanted to put on the States dont equal the debt crises we are in today. Those are two completley different debts and each happened for two completly different unrelated reasons. It will help to keep the Revolution alive if some of us become more intellgent about the founders before discussing there importance
shawnmichaelfan 1 year ago
@shawnmichaelfan
Obviously Hamilton is dead so he has no direct impact on today. But his views and actions of that time still exist and he has a very large impact on current economic policy. I agree people should be educated on subjects so as not to represent certain people incorrectly. I do disagree with you that the debts of then and today are completely different. We had a chance to make a very different world, Hamilton stained that opportunity by his centralist ideals.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
We are in debt today because of spending with not enough revenue, borrowing without rasing enough revenue to pay back the loans, and our rep and senators answering to the aristocrats on Wall Street instead of the Common American. Thats not how Hamiltons debt was established. Hamilton was correct when he said that the best way for a agriculture economy to prosper is through international trade. But you need theinternational currency first .
shawnmichaelfan 1 year ago
so he established his debt by borrowing from State Banks and charging the States the finaicial cost of the war so they could afford to pay back there bank loans. Jefferson problem was the fear that the treasury department will have a monopoly over the monetary system and money lending
shawnmichaelfan 1 year ago
@shawnmichaelfan
If you control the printing of a nations currency then you control that nation. Such power should only be in the hands of electable offices. If you create a national bank then you have just created a monopoly instantly. Long ago man began with this credit and debt foolishness. It was only a matter of time before man's nature caused a credit/debt system to fail. When you live above your means then you are destined to live beneath them. Unification can have bad consequences.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
Jefferson problem with a national debt that if not payed off was that it will make the treasury a monopoly over the monetary system and money lending. Which will cause the Federal goverment to grow so big that they will answer to the aristrocrats instead of the Common American. and therefore will cause similer problems to which instigated the French Revolution. So i belive they both made accurate points and this is also why the two debts are different
shawnmichaelfan 1 year ago
@shawnmichaelfan Debt is debt no matter what intent is behind its creation. This global interconnection of debt is disgusting and I simply cant accept it as something that was needed to by the US to survive. Such decisions made off fear and assumption is dangerous and often leads to mistakes. It may have helped produce our modern world but that has negative side effects as well. I am more of an idealist so naturally I support Jefferson's views above Hamilton.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
Oh yes i totally agree. Todays global interconnection of debt is immoral and uncalled for and is killing are economy. We are not going to go into a 2nd great depression we are going to go into our economy going into near extinction. And bringing other important economis down with it because of the interconnection. Jefferson is right we dont need a monoply over the monetary system and im glad Paul is trying to get competiton the Fed needs since he already admit it probably wont end soon
shawnmichaelfan 1 year ago
@Jononutoob Hamilton was more down to earth and realistic. Jefferson was great too, don't get me wrong but a little bit too idealistic. In the end we all knew that Hamilton voted for Jefferson in the house of rep. tipping the balance out of Burr's hands, probably got him shot too but Hamilton didn't punk out from a duel.
Wolfsbane909 1 year ago
@Wolfsbane909 Jesus Christ was an idealist too. I will choose an idealist over a realist any chance I get. Realists thinking they are being real when they arent is the reason most of our problems exist.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob well, i heard that Hamilton was one of the first to begin an hydro type factory near a river? Also its funny how Jefferson owned 200 slaves, while Hamilton didn't own any, heh
Wolfsbane909 1 year ago
@Wolfsbane909 I am not aware of any hydro plant from Hamilton. It wouldnt shock me as Hamilton was a smart man. And I am not seeing your point regarding the slaves. I dont care to judge a man's ideals by counting how many slaves they owned. Jefferson had a quote, "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Because of words like this I find Jefferson to be a far better representative of American founding principles than Hamilton.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob well everyone has their own favourite founding father, I think the note speaks for itself, jefferson is on the two dollar bill, while Hamilton is on the ten dollar bill. So that would mean that Hamilton is 5x times more valuable than Jefferson! Boo-Yah! lol
Wolfsbane909 1 year ago
@Wolfsbane909 Haha. If you give any value to the dollar then your argument can maybe have merit. I doubt Hamilton nor Jefferson would want their faces on those rags. lol
Also Lincoln must be pissed considering he is on a penny.
But on a serious note my favorite founding father was Jefferson because of his story of dying on the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. You have to have spirit to die on that day 50 years later.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Wolfsbane909 You mean after Hamilton lived in the North and Jefferson lived in Virginia. Jefferson wrote into the original draft of the Declaration of Independence that slavery was a tyrannical practice and trade advocated by a tyrranical king. He only kept his slaves because he said that they would be persecuted or even ran back into slavery. When he died, his slaves mourned his death, he wasn't a cruel master.
masterskyrunner 8 months ago
@Jononutoob "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." ~Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson had it right over 200 years ago. Hamilton was the neo-con of his day.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob only a slave master would be able to warn others of the threat of being enslaved,the words" wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them" stand out the most, sure a inslaver may feed and house you but he is alienating you your unalienable rights, how ironic that jefferson made such a foolish hypocrtical statement
prowlifik 1 year ago
@prowlifik Jefferson was no saint. He had slaves and even promised them freedom but never could give it because he was in debt. We are all hypocrites in some way. This doesnt make it right. But while he was wrong he also is responsible for some of the legal openings used to allow blacks and all minorities the rights they have today. We must remember that this was the world then, America is different now. Jefferson and others gave us the headroom to stand up!
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob so its a do as a say not as i do type of situation ? as a black american i can asure you that there is mentaly somthing wrong with a person who feels compelled to take off the chians of restriction to only put them on another, and to your notion that he promised freedom to his slaves that only applyed to the children he had with sally, so i dont know how you can reguard your own children as a slave, but he also freed a few slaves in his WILL, he couldnt use them where he was going
prowlifik 1 year ago
@prowlifik Jefferson did not take any chains off anyone to put on another. Our founders knew the Bill of Rights was going to conflict with slavery. They didnt flat out end slavery because that would have created opposition to the revolution. However it took far too long for it to end.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob jefferson took the proverbial chains of england off of the colonist by writing the decloration,"I refuse to take off the chains of great britain to only don those of france"-John adams, the chains he put on where those he put on every slave born at monticello.
prowlifik 1 year ago
@prowlifik So you are blaming Jefferson for putting chains on any slave born on his land? Oh please. What should Jefferson had done? Should he have not worked for revolution because it is hypocritical to you?
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob hmmmm, KEY words HIS LAND, your responsible for anything that takes place at your house, and its sad that you dont find the hypocrisy in a man that wants freedom from one nation while he is enslaving an entire race.
prowlifik 1 year ago
@Jononutoob the more and more you talk it becomes clear that you are pro slavery
prowlifik 1 year ago
@prowlifik I do see the hypocrisy of it. I also see hypocrisy in all people. What we disagree on is whether we should call Jefferson a racist white devil or whether he is very responsible for any civil rights in this country. The man spoke of freedom and independence his entire life and you forget that because he had slaves? You dont have to like the guy but you cant argue what he did in all Americans favor. And I am not pro slavery. Are you?
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob i see you havent been paying attention, as i stated before iam BLACK so there for i find it very difficult for I any black person to stand on the platform of pro slavery.
prowlifik 1 year ago
@prowlifik The fact that you thought it was a serious question is a perfect representation of this discussion. I dont care if you are blue skinned, skin color does NOT represent what a person may believe. The act of saying all blacks are against an idea is like saying all whites are supportive of an idea. Like I said in my earlier post, all men are hypocrites in some way. Im not willing to write you off just like I wouldn't write off Jefferson.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@prowlifik at the time of this debate, there was still slavery in the north. i don't think hamilton was any more sympathetic to the cause of slaves than was jefferson.
drvn8 11 months ago
@drvn8 yes but we are talking about OWNING slaves TJ owned them, its one thing for slavery to go on but to be apart of the slave trade is very diffrent. just because somthing is going on doesnt make it right.
prowlifik 11 months ago
@prowlifik good point. and even though jefferson was against the international slave trade, he did own them and evidently had some very insulting views on them. it's uncertain whether or not hamilton owned any, but his views on blacks seem to have been much more egalitarian. while it's doubtful that he prioritized the slavery issue nearly as much as he did the financial promise of the u.s., at least he made no distinctions based on race as to who might be objectified in the face of finance.
drvn8 11 months ago
@shawnmichaelfan i couldn't agree more, their words are already very well documented and their meetings as well. Hamilton's ideas were different, the type of debt is very different indeed. I didn't even know who he was at first, he has a very strong presence in his eyes, an man with a "dramatic" brow, I thought he was just another scottsman, which also makes him my favourite, he too is an immigrant to america too.
Wolfsbane909 1 year ago