Recovery | Pro/Con AA NA 12 Step Argument (part 1)

[LexeconKiddo]

"...never going to hit a target on that one". I hear that. It's not just steppers who exhibit such black & white thinking. I am rather sick of being told I certainly am one thing or another--especially by the very same people repeatedly, all who have decidedly heavy blinders on. Right now I am rather anti-12 step, and everything's a learning experience--or should be, IMHO--but in terms of the anti movement, well, sometimes venting about real experiences sounds more mean than intended.

[IGOROZKARSKY]

BEST PART IN THE VID, BUD.

@ 5:16

COME NEXT NEW YEARS EVE

ITS 3 YEARS SINCE I HAVE

HAD A CIGARETTE,

& I MUST SAY THAT I MISS

THEM.

[inwood75]

hi

just want you to know there are 12 employees in NYGSO that are paid over $6,000,000 dollars a year plus the retirees get paid for years after they leave.

Yes it's true. Locally our meetings have small amounts but The sale of Big Books to prison's and rehabs bring in 6 mil a year. Our donations are less , some 5,000,000 but thats dollars and quarters adding up.

They publish a silly report that just shows the large numbers. Not much clarity there. Ask you local GSR for the annual report.

[backwoodsninja]

Well, here I am again. I do wish I'd watched this video before I saw your other ones. I think we'd agree more than disagree. I do love AA, but I'm aware of some of the foolishness. My view is that the AA program is the 12 Steps. For me, the 12 Step method has worked wonderfully in my recovery. Most of the flaws that I see in AA are human ones. Some people who want to be wise men veer away from what's in the program and spew their own rhetoric.

[theral66]

THANK YOU! I'm in A.A, and it works for me, I have a friend in smart recovery it works for him.  There are those who A.A dose not work! but I can truly say I am for anything that saves lives. Thank you so much, I love your attitude about the whole thing, rational. 'either side, there is no recovery' how true. What ever works, I gotta say i'm in A.A, I don't agree with everything, but what I agree with is your admirable logic. You really saved me a lot of suffering, and confusion.thank u

[upthemetalpunx]

is that a Bathory shirt?

[translationwiz]

I agree. Theres good and bad in all of this stuff. People get too rigid & , well, crazy about recovery as they were in addiction. But through all the debating-you might just stay clean&sober. And thats the objective-nespa? Yeah, me too. I dont put all of my eggs in one donation basket. RBET, SOS, NA,AA, prayer, meditation,yoga, fitness, diet, all that..I do it. I didnt just drink. So, I use all that helps. Except booze&drugs. thanks for Sharon...LOL.

Keep up the good work man

peace.

[isegoria1]

@translationwiz Yours is the sanest comment I have seen on my videos in more than a month. Thanks for commenting.

[theral66]

@translationwiz YES! I can't believe there is rational people out here. I'm in A.A, but I can't stress enough its NOT the only way, whatever works right. I'm not pro A.A i'm more pro NOT DYING. And all those things are awesome, i also do therapy work, and anxiety groups. You and Sharon rock. a lot of hope man, love it. PS: can i ask what RBET I believe i've herd of SOS, I just wish these group were more available for people.

[translationwiz]

@theral66 LOL. Sharon is a joke a friend of mine made up at a meeting. Everyone says, "thanks for sharin'" .........being the bozo he is. He said, "who's this Sharon they are always talking about? You ever meet her?" LOL. If you already got it. then pardon me........Uhhhh. Rational emotive behavioral therapy. Created by Albert Ellis. Look it up its real cool. (tyranny of the shoulds&Musterbations) .........In the end most anxiety is due to "What will others think......" LOL.

peace/paz

[theral66]

@translationwiz hahahaha........i've nerd that one before, that's hilarious. Yes I will certainly look that up, sounds interesting, I wonder if there would be meetings around me. And yes anxiety is a tough one, But here's to getting well. thanks for comment again thats great. and thank sharon for me lol. much respect.

[mdgraden]

I think the 12 step programs are great... unless you are an Atheist.

"Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power - that One is God. May you find him now."

Most 12 steppers think you can only recover if you believe a magical invisible person can keep you clean.

[Hammersley1967]

It is telling how the steptards react to such an even handed analysis of the debate...

Just shows how much of a RELIGION it is...

Funny how we haven't seen the same reaction from the 12 step skeptics....

[isegoria1]

@Hammersley1967 What I find even more entertaining is how the NA people are generally missing from these attacks.

I would have to say that NA is far less offensive than AA. Usually they have the idea that "here are our books", "this is how some did it","you don't to do it that way and we done care if your agree or not". In closing just plain don't use no matter what.

[Hammersley1967]

@isegoria1

I have noticed that too...

[Jrunri]

850 views and 91 ratings?

Is there some serious vote-botting going on or what?

Does any videos on YT get over a 10% voting rate once in the hundreds of views?

[Jrunri]

crap, these AAers here in the comments act really sick. They don't even hear what you say about 12 steppers as people in this vid.

btw when you wanna quit smoking I know you can ;)

[isegoria1]

I still struggle with the smoking, I quit and then started again. No excuses, I guess I am just not ready to quit for good yet. Down to only a few cigarettes a day. Have considered alternative methods.

AA'ers get their panties in a twist anytime they think someone MIGHT be talking bad about their club. I would have to say NA is far less offensive to the general public. I next to never get bashing from them for some reason.

Thanks for taking the time to comment

[isegoria1]

Yes there was some vote botting going on, It was of the tune of 65 hits I think

[Hammersley1967]

@MyLesPaulcopy

"Again,best of luck with your psychosis"

psychosis, dry drunk... BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!

More mindless, indoctrinated and rehearsed 12 step drivel...

Why don't you actually post a comment that expresses an ARGUMENT and then stand ACCOUNTABLE for that argument...

I'm not holding my breath...

And the sad thing is, because you actually know that Isegoria1 and I are right, neither are you...

PATHETIC!!!

[isegoria1]

Again more hate from your clan, is of no surprise. I like how you - a grossly unqualified person - claims to have what it takes to psychoanalyze another person based on cursory YT interaction. This is the very type of folk remedy bullshit that AA uses to kill members who do not agree with the core dogma.

I see you have also taken the time to dish yet more unoriginal adhom which means you have nothing to offer, this is also no surprise.

Goodbye

[Hammersley1967]

@MyLesPaulcopy

"an obvious idiot."

Yes you are...

Not your fault though...

You're simply indoctrinated to the point of catastrophic intellectual collapse...

All I can say to you is - there is a way out...

It's up to you to walk through the door...

All the best with overcoming the enormous obstacles that stands in the way of you and full recovery, liberation and happiness....

[Hammersley1967]

@MyLesPaulcopy

"your blaming the program for addicts who relapse. No one puts a gun to anyones head to use. It's a choice, period"

If I told you to work a "program" that involved simply standing on your head for an hour a day and not drinking or using, and it didn't work, would it be reasonable to say that it's unreasonable to "blame the program for addicts who relapse"?

Would it be reasonable to say "no one puts a gun to anyone's head to use. It's a choice, period"?

You don't get it.

Sad.

[Hammersley1967]

@MyLesPaulcopy

As I said, I'm 15 years clean and sober and have never been happier, healthier or more fulfilled in my professional, academic and personal life.

Your mindless, rehearsed, zombie-like response "your super angry, and your talking like a dry drunk." is typical of AAers like you that have been indoctrinated to the point of intellectual incapacitation...

You simply don't make sense...

I wish you all the best in overcoming you psychological, sexual, and personal problems...

[isegoria1]

Coward

[isegoria1]

Talk shit and then run away. very typical of you to call anyone who does not blindly agree with you crazy in some way.

How so very typical of you.

[isegoria1]

How can he possibly be "blaming" a organization that makes wild unfounded claims to their success all while having an abysmal success rate that is NO SECRET even to people who are not involved in it?

Even the general public knows that 12 step is BS. Only the members of 12 step programs usually do not realize they are the laughing stock of our population.

Once they understand they are the butt of a joke played on them, they get pissy rather than make adjustments.

Why is that?

[Hammersley1967]

@MyLesPaulcopy

"They are still drinking /using and somehow think they're constitutional rights have been infringed on."

I've been shit slamming 12 step for fucking years on YT and I'm 15 years clean.

Not bitching about "constitutional rights" from me!!!

It's just that the "program" is used as the therapeutic technique par excellence - despite the fact that it has an absolutely fucking ATROCIOUS efficacy rate...

[isegoria1]

No and what is the point of your inquiry aside from not addressing anything the video?

[isegoria1]

Obviously my answer is no

[isegoria1]

Why would I?

[Hammersley1967]

"When we use, we toss aside the program"

So if you use, you're OFF the program...

Conversely, if you don't use, then you're ON the program...

That's 12 step speak for "just quit"...

Circular logic...

[nickybadboy50]

AA & NA is FREE and doesn't really demand much. Addicts are addicts and I'd rather hang with a clean addict then someone who is using. It may have saved my life. Although I no longer attend meetings and rarely go to functions, I'll always be grateful to both programs. NA/AA works if you work it. Most people don't.

[isegoria1]

It would be free if they would only stay out of the treatment centers, they don't so it is not.

"Works if you work it" is BS - I know of some dead people who "worked it"

This is what we call lie with modifiers.

[nickybadboy50]

I'm not a part of either program anymore so I have no reason to defend the program. AA/NA doesn't get paid to go to treatment centers and only go when asked to. They don't even pass a basket when they do. The dead people you know obviously did not work the steps, or had problems other than alcohol. I'd be more suspicious of anyone who doesn't freely post comments then I would of AA/NA. I always did whatever I wanted to in both programs without any problem.

[isegoria1]

Arrogant and full of stupid assumptions. I wonder how much you know of these dead people. Again more LIE with qualifiers.

Please do fuckin tell us.

[imagineart]

If they worked it...they wouldn't be dead. So they obviously did NOT work it.

Additionally my brazen yet somewhat mildly misguided friend...the only reason AA/NA are in treatment centers is because treatment centers know that they work. They do not charge anything...you may contribute only if you want to.

The treatment centers charge but AA/NA meetings do not, have not, and never will.

That is what we call idiot with no modifiers.

[Hammersley1967]

"If they worked it...they wouldn't be dead. So they obviously did NOT work it."

Circular logic...

[Hammersley1967]

"Additionally my brazen yet somewhat mildly misguided friend...the only reason AA/NA are in treatment centers is because treatment centers know that they work."

Misguided?

Yes, you are...

The only reason/s why treatment centres "allow them in" is because:

a) AA/NA DON'T charge.

b) the treatment centres don't know what the hell they are doing and are run by ex-steppers.

As far as "treatment centers know that they work", AA's OWN research reveals a 74% failure rate in the first year alone.

[goldsmithstudent]

sorry did not mean to offend you.all im saying is that you start with belief which moves you too faith which is based in fact. there is examples in the big book. like the wright bros story. will not bug you anymore, i did enjoy our dilouge though. beleving nothing is a belif though. by the way where do u go to meetings. i go in atlanta

[isegoria1]

Neither "faith" or "belief" are based in fact. Fact is offensive to both.

I start with an observation and a question of why and how. I insert no belief, instead I research and make sure things are demonstrable. I make no claims, I provide repeatable proof.

How is "non belief" a belief WTF? That is a statement of a person that is too busy believing to think. And we wonder why science in this country is behind the rest of the world.

Simple - my life works like the scientific method. Look it up

[imagineart]

Like the Rush song Freewill says..."If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice".

If your belief is in non-belief...guess what? That IS your belief...And we wonder why science in this country is behind the rest of the world. No kidding eh?

Your scientific method is seemingly not so scientific.

[isegoria1]

Lack of belief is not a belief. Your ignorance astounds me. Pretty arrogant of you (typical) to tell me what I supposedly believe.

I know you are full of nonsense and your comments are proof.

[imagineart]

You are the one who said you're into non-belief. Not me...apparently you don't need to anyone to tell you anything. At 5 years you clearly have ALL the answers...reminds me of my teenage daughter...

[isegoria1]

Not non belief, the lack of believing BS.

Nice duck but fail. I do in fact have more answers than your tiny unfounded belief ever will unlike you retarded spawn.

If you are going to try again please at least make a fucking effort to get your own bullshit logic right.

[imagineart]

Was that English right there: will unlike you retarded spawn."

Wow...

I may actually submit that to failblog....

[isegoria1]

Dropping an r does not negate the statement. The pointing out of such flaws again further shows us all your childish bullshit.

Do you have anything to offer or are you just a troll?

[justanotherface123]

Trolling again huh? You really do have nothing to offer the world.

You got clean for nothing, you are still an asshole.

[isegoria1]

Trolling is all they know how to do. It exemplifies their own ignorance and hate based in their tiny belief structure. 12 step is an offensive religion in every sense of the phrase.

imagineart is just another troll who must at all costs hate others who have found successful alternatives to his tiny minded cult. He makes his claim for failblog, but it is him who has a unfounded disease model belief system.

Know that there is no lie they will not tell to defend it.

[imagineart]

I don't hate you....you might save my life some day...you might be the guy that stands between me and a drink. Yes...you are an ass...but I don't hate you...I merely came on her commenting to the slams you were already doling out to anyone that doesn't agree with you...

[isegoria1]

Your hate is obvious. I'll pour it for you. If you are not smart enough to make the right decision then that is your fault. Ass? More adhom because I do not agree with your tiny beliefs? No surprise.

[isegoria1]

I like his supposed website - can anyone say "e-begging"? Must have 10 fucking paypal links on the same page. Same old text plopped into each show description, LOL.

[imagineart]

lol....3 million downloads last year compared to 768 views on you tube.

Hey look...I'm not always right...but it's painfully obvious that you are never wrong...at least in your mind.

[quickcap2]

Holy shit it is quickcap. Fucking retarded as always

[isegoria1]

Either it is quickcap or the hatred that comes from these people is all the same.

[justanotherface123]

DUCK AND FAIL

[theral66]

@justanotherface123 I can't believe the hate. Why? Its so true no recovery is actually happening from either side. To what you said is just awful, to say someone is worthless, man it really hurts to see that kind of hate. Not just you but everyone. its more disappointing than anything.

[justanotherface123]

@theral66 Prove your stupid assertion of no recovery or STFU. I anticipate your silence, or even more retarded blather.

[Hammersley1967]

"You are the one who said you're into non-belief."

"Being into something" does not equate to a belief...

Look the word up in the dictionary...

[isegoria1]

Bruce Burnett is a sad pathetic little man who can not help but be angry with people who have found alternatives. In this video I was agreeing with them for the most part. How pathetic must he be when he attacks my most mild video to date? Proof that 12 step adherence means blind following with ZERO questioning. It is demanded at all costs even if you do not subscribe to their belief system. They are nothing more than bullies. Notice he writes like quckcap? Same old hate, same old game.

[Hammersley1967]

"If your belief is in non-belief...guess what? That IS your belief..."

Nup...

Do you see how you made a monumental boo-boo there?

[goldsmithstudent]

i know what your saying but that in itself is a belief. think about that awhile and dont respond right away. think about it and listen for a answer. then respond.not react

[isegoria1]

Beliefs are not founded in fact. I live my life in fact. The two are incompatible and I am offended that you would push your "belief" of me which is not based in any level of fact.

Get to know me more before you spout more beliefs.

[imagineart]

Hmmmm I believe that if I slam a gram of heroin it will kill me. It's only a belief of mine...but the fact is I will die...

[isegoria1]

And you point is? Let me guess you don't have one which is why you blathered in multiple comments rather than just one.

[imagineart]

Well I am only commenting on veritable plethora of nonsensical blather you had already posted...but you are right...one should have been sufficent to cover it. Which would have been true for you as well...but what's good for the goose is good for the gander right?

[isegoria1]

You really should step away from the thesaurus. It only makes you appear retarded. You have yet to counter even one point but like a 10 year old bully call names instead. Could this be because you never once had anything to offer? Thanks for your childish adhom commentary, your anger and hate makes me smile.

[isegoria1]

It would also appear that you do not know the difference between a belief and knowledge.

Maybe you should go do that smack so you can get the "Darwin Award". Tell me that you have not conned some woman into breeding with you.

[imagineart]

lol...that was good...but comical judging from the pic on your profile...you may have intelligence...(and even that is doubtful)...but wow....if your looks are as good as your webcam...no wonder you sit mostly in the dark...

[isegoria1]

Again more adhom because you have nothing to offer.

You are only obviously a mental midget and that is sad.

[imagineart]

No comeback for that which is really sad.

Look Mr. I have moms 1960's wallpaper on my wall with a "We Can Do It" poster. Living at mom's posting about how everyone else is wrong and you have the only valid points.

No one has posted in MONTHS to this thread and I already have 5 thumbs down in 30 minutes...lol Could you be any more lame?

[isegoria1]

I don't need to address your childish insults. You have nothing to offer and that is quite obvious. 1960's? Again more stupidity and adhom. Actually wise ass that is paint. You are too funny to be taken seriously.

It is nice to have subscribers to hand a hater like you off to. They sure do respond fast huh?

Why do you wish others who have found successful alternatives to die so you can be right?

Please justify your open hatred. We are all waiting

[imagineart]

I love that you don't need to address anything...yet you do.

"Wise ass that is paint?" Is that an actual sentence?

Like I said...I don't even hate you...I am not a fan of your point...but that isn't hate. If you live with your mom...doesn't make me hate you...if you use improper English...doesn't make me hate you...feel sorry for you? Yes...hate you...no.

My point is that it worked for me and your point is that it didn't for you...and? I don't care if you stay sober watching baseball.

[isegoria1]

You have no points aside from your obvious need to spit hatred at me. You have not addressed any points I made in the video instead you have resorted to the typical adhom commentary that is so prevalent with your cult.

I pity you, you are a pathetic slave to an antiquated belief system that has been proven wrong many times over yet you repeat the lie.

I like your supposed "spiritual" priciples here. It shows how false the claim is.

No more time for you. You have nothing to offer.

[goldsmithstudent]

i did not come to believe in drugs in alcohol by watching others do them. same works with the steps. you do believe in drugs and alcohol dont you? if you didnt you wouldnt of used them. so dont say you believe nothing cause you do bro.

[isegoria1]

No I in fact do not believe anything. Think about that carefully.

[splnow1]

We came to believe that 12 step programs are religions in denial and it works for people that are forced to be opened up to become "churched"

Hokus-Pokus and superstition did not work for me. I got clean and sober and maintain over 5 years without a Higherpower. You can too.

[imagineart]

I know a guy that was an atheist and got sober. I didn't have much of a higher power when I got sober, I just figured that if there was a higher power, it wasn't me.  I've been in AA/NA/CA for over 20 years clean and sober, and I have never been churched, as a matter of fact I've never been told that I HAD to do anything. Even the steps are "suggestions". That being said, do it however works for you. If watching baseball keeps you sober, then I suggest watching baseball every frickin day!

[isegoria1]

mmm I did not have it all together when I got clean. Why would I have felt the need to get clean if I had it all together then?

Belief poisons everything. Think or believe you can not do both at the same time. AA is for people who refuse under penalty of death to think for themselves.

[goldsmithstudent]

if you like what you have and are honestly happy with your life. Great. but i believe im a product of what i believe. when i got clean and sober i did not need new information i needed to stop fighting and open up to what someone else thought and it worked and still works. if you like what you have im happy for you man. AA does not work for people that have it all together i was a failure at living before AA. today i demonstrate some stability in my life. read pg49 big book last paragraph

[goldsmithstudent]

jan 20 1996 was the last drink i had. i am not religous at all man. you said you had a sponser. i have a question for you? do you listen to what he says or should i say believe him when he talks to you.

[isegoria1]

That "sponsor" is more of a friend these days and these days gets more out our conversations than I do. I spar with him and challenge all that he believes. I believe anything.

Beliefs will always be the lies we tell ourselves when we don't want to look at reality. Mine is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of what was left when I stopped believing.

Reality is what exists when one stops believing.

[goldsmithstudent]

i knew you would use that line in the book. SPIRITUAL disease. the disease concept your talking about is treatment jargin. the big book calls it an ilness.this illness can not be treated by a doc or any human power including yours.read we agnostics and i have read the book. but you need to read only the black parts and not in between the lines.

[isegoria1]

"treatment jargon"? Bullshit, total and complete bullshit. I guess I went the fake AA and NA meetings for the last 15 years of my life?

"he big book calls it an illness" Again bullshit - why is it that it appears that I am reading your damn book more than you are? It calls it several things, go look them up and see if you can find how many different things it is called in the BB.

"this illness can not be treated by a doc or any human power including yours" Again BS - Have been clean over 2 yrs

[isegoria1]

"read we agnostics and i have read the book. but you need to read only the black parts and not in between the lines."

I have read this enough times to know how offensive it really is. Bill like the typical fundie spends about 1 paragraph making a piss poor attempt at reaching the Atheist and then says you must find his imaginary friend.

If you like your "program" then go away and stop ramming your religion down my throat. It is offensive when fundies do it and it is offensive when XA's do it.

[goldsmithstudent]

no where in the big book does it say that alcoholism is a disease. you must go to diffrent meetings than me. i only speak for me and no one else. no one can hurt aa or the message. my life speaks for itself before aa and after aa. the message is the way i live its called the language of the heart. i have ceased fighting anything or anyone

[isegoria1]

"It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick."

~AA Big Book Read it sometime.

[tommyi2d]

look my friend I go TO AA and owe a lot to AA but i agree with a lot of ur points ! all i can say about the people that say that theres another way to get over drugs and the like I say yes there right ! I know AA does not have a monopoly on recovery ! what ever works for the addict. I live and let live and we all have the right to believe as they wish ! much love to ya

[luvhaggis]

You don't need "cheesy" music. A well done video :)

[vacillateallday]

ise - You have a clear view on all of this, I don't mind you at all, I have a thick skin! - I too believe in the "choice" but we are drowned out - I did 2 videos relating to that - not many views!

If you change your video title to include "Alcoholics Anonymous" + better tags + get your friends to link - then you'll get more views. All the best.

[isegoria1]

Thanks for the pointers, they are appreciated. I'll check out your videos. No one really wants to talk choice because it becomes a responsibility. LOL

[vacillateallday]

ise - your welcome - I think your perspective is well thought out and it would be a shame if nobody could find you. Make the video title Alcoholics Anonymous something or other and then you'll be categorized and Youtube will track you and you'll get noticed. Choice becomes a responsibility - LOLOL!! Too true.

[lildebmurphy]

actually no alcoholic or addict has the power of choice to NOT drink use.

you are quite wrong but that is great because you do not have any effect on anyone, whereas i who work with many help many.

accept jesus and be happy, you seem so very unhappy

love deb

[isegoria1]

"actually no alcoholic or addict has the power of choice to NOT drink use. "

I do and I use mine daily.

Take responsibility for your life and stop using your messiah on a stick as an excuse to be a nasty person.

[vacillateallday]

Hi - thanks for your comments on my videos and I'm watching yours. Good luck to you. 5 stars from me - we both see two sides of the argument - AA + AAA. I was trying to re-dress the hypocrisy within AAA. That mission is complete. There is more to life than AA or the nihilism of AAA.

[isegoria1]

Thanks for dropping in and commenting. I do apologize if I come off too rough. You are absolutely right, the arguing just obscures what the end goal is. The end goal is right living and freedom from the effects of drugs in our lives. In the end we have to learn to live.

[isegoria1]

I guess I should fix my lighting? Oh well this will get better as we go.