The Dalai Lama on how to deal with Dorje Shugden practitioners

[FrnDkt]

Would an emanation of the Buddha of universal compassion publicly exclude a whole group of people doing the very same practice he also used to do?

[Jabulon88]

i feel it is unfair to blame the dalai lamas attempts at protecting his people from what he perceives to be a negative practice. its regrettable that people already have grown so fond of dorje shugden, and that his decision to expel him from monastary teachings might have been a bit harsh, especially to the dorje shugden practictioners.

this is nothing more than catholics/protestant discussion however, and people being aggressive is unfortunate.

he has not executed monks, like china under mao

[XpresloX]

@xeremos only Dalai Lama religion make himself the power control all his life. I never see someone else more dictactor than the Lama on the earth. Because he is a great dictator, he enriched himself and his own family. He never has the compassion for the poor tibetain who have nothing. He also want to reincarnate the lama again and again for internity and the rest tibetains will stay poor .

[clearviewmind]

@XpresloX to have nothing is a true blessing

[andrepporto]

what about Geshe Lobsang Gyatso murder

[xeremos]

@andrepporto Anyone suspected of that murder is innocent until proven guilty, even in the Indian court system. (Besides, what about everyone else who was NEVER involved in ANY murder or violence--do ALL Christians get blamed for wars waged in the name of Jesus?) Before February 1997, did the Dalai Lama accept invitations to dialogue and reconciliation concerning the Dorje Shugden ban? Before the ban in March 1996, did the Dalai Lama pursue dialogue and compromise?

[xeremos]

The video and its title is a consequentialist argument. The Dalai Lama is speaking in general terms: all people, all disagreements, all conflicts, all problems. Therefore, his words should apply to Dorje Shugden practitioners as well, for whom there is no dialogue, respect, or attempt at reconciliation. Instead, he employs a "one side victory, one side defeat" approach which, according to his own words, should be considered unrealistic in today's world. This video is meant to show the irony...

[Melayahm01]

Wise words, of course, but, I fail to see the relevance of the title of this video, unless there's some part missing, HH does not mention Dorje Shugden here at all

[BestivalFan]

He has a good life, he gets flown all around the world 1st class and stays in 5 Star Hotels, and just goes along to these events and say's a few wise words that most of us already know! (then get Paid)

What a great life  : )

[Macrotodon]

@BestivalFan Try to do his job, I give you one day and you will resign.

[smoothgoomer]

@xeremos I don't practice Vajrayana yet, but I will when I'm ready, and again, it's because I've become convinced through my own unbiased study of it that it is a valid, indeed superior, spiritual path.

[xeremos]

@smoothgoomer So, according to you, Rime is only for those who have already mastered one tradition first? If you are enlightened through one tradition, do you have to become enlightened again through another? Also, why do you practice the Vajrayana, since according to other forms of Buddhism it is controversial (i.e., not taught by Buddha) and possibly unDharmic (e.g., Tantric practices).

[smoothgoomer]

@xeremos There are people of different capacities. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche was one of these, and so was Je Tsongkhapa, both of whom were taught by many people of many traditions. So was Atisha.

I practice the Mahayana because it is thoroughly logical and balanced (see Madhyamika/Prasangika philosophies). I've studied it and am convinced of its authenticity. I am not convinced of the authenticity of the Shugden practice, so I won't practice it.

[ikhamo]

its discrimination and intimidation against your own people

[TheUnemployedsamurai]

He looks like hes playing poker with that stupid cap on his head. i wish he had promoted these ideas about tolerance towards Shugdan's 10 years ago. finally he sees that he is not all powerful and tries to hold onto his power through humility.

[twominutesremaining]

wow i always thought that this guy is a peaceful man! i never expected that he'd do something like that! this is worse than hitler!

[wisdombeing]

it's very obvious why the Dalai Lama will not have a dialogue with Shugden practitioners. It's because he would lose the debate. Otherwise it would be perfect way to decimate the Shugdenpas!

[TheRedNiece]

hey dharmadolly - good on yah! Good point. Yes, I stand by the opinion that although we do not agree with a teacher or practice, we can at least not criticise, attack or suppress others. There must be some balance and we should definitely try to have some respect for others. That would be the basic practice for any Buddhist.

[jayasina]

Yes Your Holiness,

Please do have a dialogue with all Shugden Practitioners. You said yourself that the desctruction of your neighbour is the destruction of yourself. But your own people within your own compound are being hunted and being ostracised. how?

yours faithfully,

JS

[AlphaFirefly]

@jayasina He is simply not following my word, and is thus indeed destroying himself, just observe as his credibility falters before the worlds very eyes.

[dharmadolly]

I guess his holiness has his reasons for banning the practice of ds or he himself choosing to do do the practice but why can't the TGIE and his supporters just leave ds practitioners in peace?why is there no CHOICE in this matter, which goes against the Buddhist way.

Buddhist don't convert people, so by the same logic, they should also not force people to give up a practice WITHIN the Buddhist tradition right?

[smoothgoomer]

@dharmadolly The problem is that this practice is (according to some scholars, the Dalai Lama included), a contaminated one that worships a deity. This is totally against the Dharma, which requires one to have faith in the three jewels only, and not in worldly gods. Therefore, as it's the Dalai Lama's (and every lama's) responsibility to maintain the purity of the Buddhadharma, he is teaching against what he sees as a false practice.

[xeremos]

@smoothgoomer Ever heard of the Dorje Shugden History website? Dorje Shugden is a supramundane Dharma Protector, which makes him a Buddha manifesting as a Sangha Jewel.

[smoothgoomer]

@xeremos Regardless, due to the controversial and sectarian nature of the Shugden practice, I find it decidedly unattractive - far more desirable to me is the Rime ethos. Besides, if lamas from other schools will not teach me because of some aversion on their part to my possible practice of Shugden, I'm going to avoid it so I can get the most from all sources. Abandoning one sadhana out of all those that exist doesn't seem a big deal to me. Practice what you want.

[xeremos]

@smoothgoomer Google "You Do the Math: Understanding Atishas Fractal Dharma."

[smoothgoomer]

@xeremos I'm not arguing against Atisha's proposal of focusing on one tradition. I'm saying that if one chooses to inquire outside of one's tradition but is restricted from doing so because of the stigma that one's own practice is subject to, and there are many other sadhanas that are just as good and less controversial, than one should abandon that which limits him, and cease to have an unnecessary (and maybe unhealthy) attachment to it. But if you're not so minded, then whatever! its all good.

[xeremos]

@smoothgoomer Regarding "one should abandon that which limits him," how far does this go? Surely, this can be taken to an extreme as well. On the model of the middle way, what is the polar opposite of sectarianism if not eclecticism? Surely, practicing one tradition--whichever one that is--is the middle path. Please google "Standing Up for the Middle Way."

[dharmadolly]

it's quite terrible that not only is there a ban on a certain practice, but that, sadly, sincere Dharma practitioners are being attacked! Is that how we uphold Dharma these days? I understand that maybe some people don't wish to do the practice of Dorje Shugden - everyone has a right to choose - but can't we all at least RESPECT people who are practitioners? At least leave them in peace and give them the opportunity and freedom to discuss.

[wisdombeing]

The discrimination is quite terrible. I hate to be political but these are the facts: Shugden practitioners have no access to funds, medical care and food from TGIE. They are ostracised and pilloried. It's really like apartheid. Very sad. I pray this all ends soon.

[thepurpleaster]

Dear Your His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Ven. Samdhong Rinpoche,

Why is there no dialogue with Shugden practitioners up until today? Why is there no religious tolerance and freedom for us? All we want is the violence against brother n sisters to STOP and that the FREEDOM to practice Dorje Shugden is allowed without prejudice. Pls Stop hunting, hurting those who does this practice. Where is the compassion? Are we not humans too?

[thepurpleaster]

In the past the Dalai Lama ordered 9 monasteries to do a Hayagriva Yang Sang puja to burn Dorje Shugden. All 9 monasteries did it simultaneously. The nest day Dorje Shugden took trance in a Gaden Oracle! So why can't all the 9 monasteries and Hayagriva unable to destroy Doorje Shugden? Unless he is undistructable, unless because he is a Buddha himself ...

[DiamondGirl1971]

I agree why not HH have a dialogue with the Shugden practitioners? HH is after all making much public talks on banning the practice. I have the utmost respect for HH which makes me ponder why he insists on not having dialogue directly with the Shugden practitioners? Personally for me, his actions make me find out more about Dorje Shugden. Could this be the same effect with many others?

[closerelative]

I don't think dialogue is a solution at this point because it would have happened a long time ago if they were interested. Perhaps we should spread this practice so it becomes more mainstream and we should support the affected monasteries and create more understanding instead of mistrust. Something would happen along the way.

[truth1888]

How can any leader say don't attend my talks because you don't share my same spiritual beliefs?

If you are the Dalai lama, you are the secular and religious leader of all tibetans, hence you must respect all religioius faiths within your country.

Imagine if Obama says, all jews cannot attend his talk. Or all Shugden ppl cannot attend his public speeches.

That would be outrageous.

That is what Dalai lama is saying, if your Dorje Shugden ppl, don't come to my talks!

[truth1888]

To Your Holiness the Dalai Lama and Ven. Samdhong Rinpoche,

Please have dialogue with the Dorje shugden representatives. They have written you letters requesting to discuss this and you have continually not replied. If you are into the spirit of dialogue and understanding, please have dialogue.

Open discussion and debate please. No one means you disrespect, just dialogue.

Thank you.

December 25, 2009

[eternalricemuncher]

Its not enough to try to ban the practice & when you dont succeed to say well if we havent eradicated them we need to repair the relationship with them. The only way that could happen is if the Dalai Lama makes as firm his commitment to their not being a ban & repeating over & over about tolerating shugden as a religious freedom. He needs to fix it so we can all be friends & harmonious in the future & Buddhists can be without confusion about the ban.

[Lineageholder]

It all sounds very nice but he's not doing it. He's promoting division, not peace.

[DarkLordoftheMeme]

Exactly, if he wants dialogue, why is he refusing to meet with Shugden practioners?

[eternalricemuncher]

you know if he meant this everything would be alright. If only he did. He doesnt act like this in Tibet. He enforced the ban there for a whole decade. We NKT want a solution compromise & reconcilliation too. we want to all be in harmony. I dont want this situation. I want to be able to go to Dalai Lama talks as shugden practitioner. Would you be able to be friends like that? Shugden & non shugden side by side? I can can you?

[xeremos]

The fact that somebody voted down eternalricemuncher's comment says alot about one side of this debate.