Another funny theory relating about this idea of non-permanent existance is described in Schroedinger's Cat paradox, when the cat which is locked in the box with an explosive is neither death nor alive, until confirmed.
yes, Quantum physicists also used to mention a "mouse paradox" when it is implied that if it sees universe and then closes its eyes, the universe ceases to be. Some may think it is near to craziness but you'd be astounded by the amount, volume and seriousness of the discussion on this bloody mouse paradox in some scientist' circles.
Do we need to enlist Schroedinger in defence of Berkeley? I'm not sure. Simple (self-)observation will teach us that there's never an object without 'me' as a subject to observe it and be aware of it. Simple observation of oneself in the act of observing objects will teach us that it is unwarranted to say that we become aware of objects 'out there'. THEY are always 'here', in the very same 'place' where WE are.
Of course it makes a noise. The lignin and cellulose make a "crack" noise as it begins to fall, when cell walls separate and such. Then, when the tree hits the ground, depending on the amount of litter (dead leaves, logs, etc) it will make some sort of "thud" caused by the impact with the ground.
You are incorrect ! The point of the philosophical question ( objective realism vs subjective idealism ) is : Does reality exist outside of consciousness ? ! Without the existance of an observer , the tree itself does not fully exist-it is governed by a wave function and exists in all states at once...not standing ,not falling ,not in-between...'awaiting' an observation/measurement in order to become complete and truly real !
Excellent ! There was a famous limerick that went : "There once was a man who said God must think it exceedingly odd to find that this tree continues to be when there's no one about in the quad" There was later written an answering limerick that went : "Tell that man ,said God ,to not think it exceedingly odd to find that the tree continues to be as I'm always about in the quad"
@MsDaniella71 Theory is not speculation nor a guess ; a theory is "the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another :the general or abstract principles of a body of fact or science: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle offered to explain phenomina:
@MsDaniella71 it's more than an educated guess. The cat exists in all possible states until the physical event is completed or fully manifest as a result of observation or measurement...all probabilities co-exist and are dimensionally discrete in a pre-physical state; the action of cosciousness 'collapses' the wave function and one of the probabilites actualizes in our immeadiate physical dimension
@JamesJTraitz I understand the theory that you are telling like it's fact. That still does not change the fact that it is theory and not fact...that's why it's called Schodingers Theory. Until the sound barrier was broken the theory (accepted by scientific community) was that doing that was impossible. The speed that light travels has been thought to be a definate...now it is accepted that light can and does move at different speeds. Theories change, facts DO NOT. Please have a lovely day/night.
just a few ?'s i like yer style james but this idea of observers is ... well,, does my dog count as an observer? what about the bird fleeing the tree as it falls, or the ants under the tree as it crashes? what if i was watching the tree fall but I was deaf?
Good questions! I believe an observer must be at the 'self-conscious' level of being wherin we make judgements about the nature of reality.If a deaf person sees the tree fall the tree makes a noise (affects sound waves).The point is ,that without an observer the tree doesn't fall or stand ,rather existing in a 'twilight state of incompleteness.
@rikestard Forget about 'less highly evolved' observers. The question is, are there any OTHER observers besides you? This raises the spectre of solipsism, yes.
If a tree falls in the woods, the movement of the tree causes friction with the air as well as the ground it eventually contacts. Friction is what causes sound. It cannot be argued that the friction does not exist when the tree falls. Thus, the sound will exist, whether anyone hears it or not.
Not correct! Without consciousness the tree neither stands nor falls nor does it exist-no tree, no air, no friction only a pre-manifested field of pre-emergent potentiality
No sound wave and no fall,in fact no tree. The earth is in a state of observation in general. physical reality is non-existant until perceived and created by consciousness What exists is a pre-physical/pre-manifest field of potentiality. The events you experience,including all the objects ,your body included,forms in response to the 'idea shape' conferred by man in general and each of us in particular.If all of consciousness was gone the earth would cease to exist!
What if everyone was knocked unconscious or in a deep sleep? Would it suddenly appear when the first person wakes up? Where did the Earth go? Whence it came?
hi i wonder something , during early times without humans or the earth . something must still been there .. particles or waves or something. same with the tree but it might just be a haze or cloud of particles before someone observe it? they dont entirely vanish
Consciousness always existed. The 'physical' system existed,but in an 'unfinished' state- a field of probabilities composed of pre-physical or pre-emergent energy/activity
I'm really not sure about this whole thing. I mean schroedinger was basically trying to combine philosophy and science.
Is the whole theory behind the fact that waves of matter collapse falsifiable. Can we really prove that all states of matter exist simultaneously until it's measured or observed?
I'm only a high school student with a minimal understanding of the subject but I would really like someone to answer the question, Is shroedinger's theory falsifiable?
The limerick:There once was a man who said God must think it exceedingly odd to find that this tree continues to be when there's no one about in the quad
Furthermore, reality is full of unknowns. If I'm about to open the box, I know there's some tiny chance the cat didn't make it. The possibility is already there. The reality of the cat's death is there in a tiny miniscule part of my reality, even if I find out the cat's alive. Reality is NOT just our observations, as it encompasses out unknowns, speculations, and pure imagination (like someone hypnotized)
Your comment is similar to a famous limerick;you mention what God would "observe". Actually,at that level of reality the cat is both alive and dead--which reality we access depends on our observation!
So you're saying before the point in time where you'll be able to smell the cat if it's died without opening the box, that once the point in time comes your sense of smell will be classed as observation and then that's when it's decided whether the cat is dead (you'll be able to smell it) or not (you still wont be able to smell anything)?
I don't understand much about this stuff, but it does seem hard to believe.
I think you may be missing the point.All of physical reality is observer dependent.We as souls,our consciousness,interfaces an available field of activity/energy causing it to 'finalize' or manifest out of a pre-emergent state.
For example, the cat in a box with poison thing. If no one opens the box and the cat eats the poison, it's not going to be dead and undead at the same time until someone opens the box and observes. If the observer opens the box a week later to find the cat dead, it wouldn't be something that just suddenly happened because the guy opened the box, as you would have smelt the cat rotting for the last few days.
The experiment works as follows:A vile of poisonous gas is placed next to a small hammer that 's switch is activated by a device controlled by the decay(and release) of a decying atom that has a 50/50 chance of decaying and releasing the triggering particle.50% that the cat is alive ,50% it is dead.The cat exists in both states (and neither) until observed or measured(i.e. detected by a monitoring device)
Interesting stuff. But ive wondered that if I place a tape recorder in the forest with the tree, and come back to it a day later, I would expect to hear any sounds the forest produces. I wouldn't expect the laws of physics to depend on my presence. The state of the forest in other words has an independent nature from my observation. Thanks
A wave function collapses by observation or measurement! When you listen to the tape recording your consciousness becomes involved.The tape recorder is an extension of your consciousness.The laws of physics depends upon man's involvement via the presence of himself and his devices
Quantum physics establishes that the wave function collapses at the moment of "observation or measurement".The recorder becomes an extension of human consciousness!
if conciousness is what everything is made out of, isn't all matter being observed by the greater conciousness that it is a part of, experiencing itself? everything that isn't a human, but still exists, is an unconcious co-creater, wouldn't you say? they just follow the laws of physics. you talk about the extension of human conciousness expanding through humans, but what about collective knowledge that says when a tree falls, it disrupts airwaves, whether people are around or not.
THHEEEEOOOOOOPOPPPBBBBBBBBBB <<< tree falling.
jambosuss 2 months ago
@johndeleij God is omnipresent
JamesJTraitz 1 year ago
@johndeleij God or " ALL THAT IS "
JamesJTraitz 1 year ago
Another funny theory relating about this idea of non-permanent existance is described in Schroedinger's Cat paradox, when the cat which is locked in the box with an explosive is neither death nor alive, until confirmed.
GeorgeGogle 1 year ago
yes, Quantum physicists also used to mention a "mouse paradox" when it is implied that if it sees universe and then closes its eyes, the universe ceases to be. Some may think it is near to craziness but you'd be astounded by the amount, volume and seriousness of the discussion on this bloody mouse paradox in some scientist' circles.
GeorgeGogle 1 year ago
Do we need to enlist Schroedinger in defence of Berkeley? I'm not sure. Simple (self-)observation will teach us that there's never an object without 'me' as a subject to observe it and be aware of it. Simple observation of oneself in the act of observing objects will teach us that it is unwarranted to say that we become aware of objects 'out there'. THEY are always 'here', in the very same 'place' where WE are.
IpsaPaphum 1 year ago
Of course it makes a noise. The lignin and cellulose make a "crack" noise as it begins to fall, when cell walls separate and such. Then, when the tree hits the ground, depending on the amount of litter (dead leaves, logs, etc) it will make some sort of "thud" caused by the impact with the ground.
geirhardr 2 years ago
You are incorrect ! The point of the philosophical question ( objective realism vs subjective idealism ) is : Does reality exist outside of consciousness ? ! Without the existance of an observer , the tree itself does not fully exist-it is governed by a wave function and exists in all states at once...not standing ,not falling ,not in-between...'awaiting' an observation/measurement in order to become complete and truly real !
JamesJTraitz 2 years ago
What if there is a "god" of some sort, a constant observer of all?
geirhardr 2 years ago
Excellent ! There was a famous limerick that went : "There once was a man who said God must think it exceedingly odd to find that this tree continues to be when there's no one about in the quad" There was later written an answering limerick that went : "Tell that man ,said God ,to not think it exceedingly odd to find that the tree continues to be as I'm always about in the quad"
JamesJTraitz 2 years ago
@JamesJTraitz Be so careful of claiming "theory" real.
MsDaniella71 1 month ago
@MsDaniella71 Theory is not speculation nor a guess ; a theory is "the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another :the general or abstract principles of a body of fact or science: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle offered to explain phenomina:
JamesJTraitz 1 month ago
@JamesJTraitz A fancy way of saying "an educated "guess". Have a good one. Oh is that cat alive or dead or both? lol
MsDaniella71 1 month ago
@MsDaniella71 it's more than an educated guess. The cat exists in all possible states until the physical event is completed or fully manifest as a result of observation or measurement...all probabilities co-exist and are dimensionally discrete in a pre-physical state; the action of cosciousness 'collapses' the wave function and one of the probabilites actualizes in our immeadiate physical dimension
JamesJTraitz 1 month ago
@JamesJTraitz I understand the theory that you are telling like it's fact. That still does not change the fact that it is theory and not fact...that's why it's called Schodingers Theory. Until the sound barrier was broken the theory (accepted by scientific community) was that doing that was impossible. The speed that light travels has been thought to be a definate...now it is accepted that light can and does move at different speeds. Theories change, facts DO NOT. Please have a lovely day/night.
MsDaniella71 1 month ago
@MsDaniella71 thank you for your comment
JamesJTraitz 1 month ago
This is true as change is always a constant and nothing is ever permanent.
RichBeater 3 years ago
just a few ?'s i like yer style james but this idea of observers is ... well,, does my dog count as an observer? what about the bird fleeing the tree as it falls, or the ants under the tree as it crashes? what if i was watching the tree fall but I was deaf?
rikestard 3 years ago
Good questions! I believe an observer must be at the 'self-conscious' level of being wherin we make judgements about the nature of reality.If a deaf person sees the tree fall the tree makes a noise (affects sound waves).The point is ,that without an observer the tree doesn't fall or stand ,rather existing in a 'twilight state of incompleteness.
JamesJTraitz 3 years ago
thnx for the response:)
rikestard 3 years ago
u saying nothing really exist unless u observe it?
Tommy6904 2 years ago
@rikestard Forget about 'less highly evolved' observers. The question is, are there any OTHER observers besides you? This raises the spectre of solipsism, yes.
IpsaPaphum 1 year ago
shrodingers theory suggests that different realitys exist for diferent observers
from the point of veiw of an observer in the box the reality exist as what it is whereas the observer outside the box both realities exist for them
Domonium93 3 years ago
If a tree falls in the woods, the movement of the tree causes friction with the air as well as the ground it eventually contacts. Friction is what causes sound. It cannot be argued that the friction does not exist when the tree falls. Thus, the sound will exist, whether anyone hears it or not.
Dowies1479 3 years ago
Not correct! Without consciousness the tree neither stands nor falls nor does it exist-no tree, no air, no friction only a pre-manifested field of pre-emergent potentiality
JamesJTraitz 3 years ago
this is so interesting , is this scientific proved?
farerse 3 years ago
Yes
JamesJTraitz 3 years ago
no.
Domonium93 3 years ago
no what?
farerse 3 years ago
James, The uncertainty of the wave/state function depends on the size of the object. The tree would fall down just fine without an observer.
It happens all the time.
Furthermore, if no one is around to hear the tree fall, it doesn't make a sound. It makes a sound wave. Sound - is your experience of that wave.
vdizhoor 3 years ago
No sound wave and no fall,in fact no tree. The earth is in a state of observation in general. physical reality is non-existant until perceived and created by consciousness What exists is a pre-physical/pre-manifest field of potentiality. The events you experience,including all the objects ,your body included,forms in response to the 'idea shape' conferred by man in general and each of us in particular.If all of consciousness was gone the earth would cease to exist!
JamesJTraitz 3 years ago
What if everyone was knocked unconscious or in a deep sleep? Would it suddenly appear when the first person wakes up? Where did the Earth go? Whence it came?
vdizhoor 3 years ago
The higher selves each of us are extant and co-form the convenient world that you so enjoy
JamesJTraitz 3 years ago
hi i wonder something , during early times without humans or the earth . something must still been there .. particles or waves or something. same with the tree but it might just be a haze or cloud of particles before someone observe it? they dont entirely vanish
farerse 3 years ago
Consciousness always existed. The 'physical' system existed,but in an 'unfinished' state- a field of probabilities composed of pre-physical or pre-emergent energy/activity
JamesJTraitz 3 years ago
interesting, almost like a modern computergame where objects or people "spawn" into the game at random places as you move along ..
farerse 3 years ago
Schroedinger's wave function has consistently predicted the behavior of particles,it is a cornerstone of physics.
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago
I'm really not sure about this whole thing. I mean schroedinger was basically trying to combine philosophy and science.
Is the whole theory behind the fact that waves of matter collapse falsifiable. Can we really prove that all states of matter exist simultaneously until it's measured or observed?
I'm only a high school student with a minimal understanding of the subject but I would really like someone to answer the question, Is shroedinger's theory falsifiable?
aradae2357 4 years ago
The limerick:There once was a man who said God must think it exceedingly odd to find that this tree continues to be when there's no one about in the quad
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago
Furthermore, reality is full of unknowns. If I'm about to open the box, I know there's some tiny chance the cat didn't make it. The possibility is already there. The reality of the cat's death is there in a tiny miniscule part of my reality, even if I find out the cat's alive. Reality is NOT just our observations, as it encompasses out unknowns, speculations, and pure imagination (like someone hypnotized)
SillyBucky 4 years ago
Without an observer,reality is 'unfinished'on the physical level!
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago
In my reality(lol) the cat dies, it's gone right away, because God himself obsereved it.
Tree falls, God heard it. In another train of thought, the cats dead right away, because after the poisinging, it yeilds the-potential-
the ability to cause an observer to perceive it's lifelessness, wether or not the perception has happened yet.
SillyBucky 4 years ago
Your comment is similar to a famous limerick;you mention what God would "observe". Actually,at that level of reality the cat is both alive and dead--which reality we access depends on our observation!
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago
So you're saying before the point in time where you'll be able to smell the cat if it's died without opening the box, that once the point in time comes your sense of smell will be classed as observation and then that's when it's decided whether the cat is dead (you'll be able to smell it) or not (you still wont be able to smell anything)?
I don't understand much about this stuff, but it does seem hard to believe.
RossPK81 4 years ago
I think you may be missing the point.All of physical reality is observer dependent.We as souls,our consciousness,interfaces an available field of activity/energy causing it to 'finalize' or manifest out of a pre-emergent state.
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago
I'm not sure about this.
For example, the cat in a box with poison thing. If no one opens the box and the cat eats the poison, it's not going to be dead and undead at the same time until someone opens the box and observes. If the observer opens the box a week later to find the cat dead, it wouldn't be something that just suddenly happened because the guy opened the box, as you would have smelt the cat rotting for the last few days.
RossPK81 4 years ago
The experiment works as follows:A vile of poisonous gas is placed next to a small hammer that 's switch is activated by a device controlled by the decay(and release) of a decying atom that has a 50/50 chance of decaying and releasing the triggering particle.50% that the cat is alive ,50% it is dead.The cat exists in both states (and neither) until observed or measured(i.e. detected by a monitoring device)
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago
Interesting stuff. But ive wondered that if I place a tape recorder in the forest with the tree, and come back to it a day later, I would expect to hear any sounds the forest produces. I wouldn't expect the laws of physics to depend on my presence. The state of the forest in other words has an independent nature from my observation. Thanks
invertedbeardthe2nd 4 years ago
A wave function collapses by observation or measurement! When you listen to the tape recording your consciousness becomes involved.The tape recorder is an extension of your consciousness.The laws of physics depends upon man's involvement via the presence of himself and his devices
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago
Quantum physics establishes that the wave function collapses at the moment of "observation or measurement".The recorder becomes an extension of human consciousness!
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago
if conciousness is what everything is made out of, isn't all matter being observed by the greater conciousness that it is a part of, experiencing itself? everything that isn't a human, but still exists, is an unconcious co-creater, wouldn't you say? they just follow the laws of physics. you talk about the extension of human conciousness expanding through humans, but what about collective knowledge that says when a tree falls, it disrupts airwaves, whether people are around or not.
nextandykaufman 4 years ago
Very well thought out! The point is that consciousness exists 'first' and therefore all of creation 'follows'
JamesJTraitz 4 years ago