Do you honestly think you have 72% support for AFA within NW fa's rank and file? From the rumbling I've heard, they're sour grapes with AFA. Furthermore, with 60 years of paying dues with no benefits, while being brainwashed into thinking the company and management are the enemy, maybe...just maybe, they're ready for a change.
I believe AFA will not get near as many votes from Delta's fa's as they did the first time as some (most) were coerced with a barrage of endless phone calls and propaganda. They're on to those tactics now. Also, with all the fa's taking the early out and fresh new-hire's (their vote will count this time) that don't support AFA it's going to get even harder.
I deeply appreciate your concern for my well being (I think) as I would not want to misinterpret your post as wishing something horrible on someone. You can rest assure, I'm quite savvy on my feet as I'm used to walking up and down the isle, not sitting on the phone. And the irony of taking managements advice???...screams hypocrisy.
Delta management told us to wait for the second election and we will take their advice, along with 8000 NWA f/a's that have been with a contract for 60 years. Talk to you soon. Don't trip over your own feet during your "victory" dance. But if you do, and you die, Delta will still keep you on the roster to be a "No" vote the next time around.
Now the real work begins. We must build bridges due to the polarization caused by the election. Inflammatory rhetoric has no place in the fabric of the largest airline on the planet. We have such a wonderful opportunity to show the industry and a watching world how it can be done with teamwork and style. I am up for the challenge and trust others will join with me as we prepare for the arrival of our NWA colleagues. The future is now.
"NO" means NO!!! We said it in 2002 we've said in now and we'll have to do it again. But, we only need 20% of the NW fa's to be dissatisfied with AFA to win again (that shouldn't be hard given AFA's track record.) We also learned your underhanded endless phone call tactics and they won't be as effective next time around.
Part II: I think our EIG F/As have done much to improve our process and procedures. You can read about their past and current projects on the DL Web.
So tell me, what have the DL AFA activists accomplished for the Delta F/As? I am always happy to engage these colleagues in conversation; however, many prefer not to talk with those with facts or who share a different opinion. I would not elect many of the vocal AFA supporters because of their behavior and the misinformation shared with others.
AFA$DAL: You have not, many others have FPL. I am not a core team EIG; however, I can assure you FPL is not offered like in the past FAST, Forum or SPL Assign. days. The pay information is posted for all:
# When any EIG member is called upon for project work, special assignment pay at the standard IFS rate of $25.00 per hour for each hour of work is applied.
# Trip drops are not common within EIG core team members as protecting the operation is part of the foundation of the EIG philosophy.
Indeed, i know both Aloha and ATA (both AFA represented companies) are defunct. If your comment was directed at me, I just wanted all to know their respective AFA web sites do not have any You Tube video clips. AFA has posted very little commentary or any current information for the effected F/As, only links to other assist sites. It appears AFA National is very busy covering FPL to DL activists who are missing trips to be in the lounge or on phone banks . A good investment? I think not!
Hollytbo: Your definition of trust is excellent; we definitely share common ground there. Also believe we are both passionate about our jobs and do them as consummate professionals. I suspect we both have shared some of the good,bad & ugly in our careers. Had some disappointments; however, never have felt thrown in front of the bus. Want to understand your experiences, do you feel free to elaborate? I understand we must run a good business and feel the DL today is a better franchise than the 70s
DLDahlie: No accountability w/ scheduling, wide margin of opportunity for "error" ie: short calls, call in windows, negating seniority etc. I have saved my schedules and rotations all these years to validate my position. My job was nothing like yours. Yes, there have been improvements. To what end? I have never been "entitled" or expected a "free lunch" from Delta. Now the company wants my generation off the payroll. Mgmt is just doing their job, I understand that..(sigh)
Hollytbo: Furlough was not an option since IFS was not overstaffed as in previous programs. We need more F/As to fly the proposed schedule, not less. Other departments were in a surplus situation. The comp. made a wise decision to offer this pkg to all who qualified. I had the required 60 pts and did not feel forced to leave. I voted my conscience 32 yrs ago when I selected non union DL. AFA, not you personally, uses many ways to polarize people, destroy loyalty and erode trust. I resent it.
DLDahlie: I didn't feel "forced out" either. (and I qualified to retire) I was on Reserve for YEARS...trust? loyalty? No one polarized me but Delta's decisions regarding my welfare and the welfare of my colleagues. The equation for trust? Truth + TIME= TRUST. Sorry, not enough time in my book to throw myself in front of the bus again. I do appreciate your position though. I respect that. Your generation is not mine. Sad, but true. You were blessed "back in the day".
Checks & balances sounds good in theory Hollytbo. However as you recall after 9/11, airline industry pay "checks" decreased (even for many in Exec ranks) as well as the "balance" in our personal and pension accounts. Yet union leadership did not feel the pain. "Caring" AFA billed furloughed F/As to maintain their "full service" organization. I am fully convinced the threat of unionization will work in the favor of DL F/As. We need open communication not numerous side letters to a bad contract.
DLDahlie: Yes, AFA billed furloughed f/a's and thank goodness! This is why they have "furlough rights". As you know, Delta is no longer offering "furlough" options to flight attendants as an insentive to leave...delta wants us OUT and OFF THE PAYROLL w/ 10yrs or more. Yes, I'll gladly pay dues to protect the integrity of my job and why I took it.
Our first union was the Teamsters and we made a failed move to go independently and start a union called PFAA. Biggest mistake of NWA FA's careers. NW wanted to outsource our jobs to the Asian bases but AFA was voted in and stopped them. Outsourcing (cheap labor) is their goal.
Yes, let's make Delta/NWA OUR Delta....Americas Delta, not Asia and India's Delta.
Together, we can be a great airline. Pro AFA, Pro Company.
NW already has bases in Bangkok, Manila, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Beijing, Tokyo and Osaka...the two latter bases are the most expensive but they have also been downsized. They will keep them because of the agreement NWA has with Japan, however, they will shrink. They are mostly used as Inflight Service Interpreters, in and out of Japan. Keep in mind that they are also ALL English speaking FA's trained in MSP, by NWA and are FAA qulified and certified.
I think its funny....that they are getting us ready for all these changes...well Delta execs maybe should take their own advise get ready for change the flight attendants will be union.....they need to understand that Richard is the one that wanted to outsource our jobs to foreign nationals...and he can be done once again overnight without a union.
Had difficulty posting previous text comments so want to clarify a couple points on my previous post:1. DL F/As fly DL metal (planes) worldwide while NW and UA do not. DL leadership has chosen not to take that course and terminated the last Foreign National contract last April.
2. Wonder what AFA Aloha and ATA F/As think of AFA National funding DL activists with flight pay loss for their time to spread the "AFA good news?" Visit their web folks, no You Tube videos or banter of "past promises"
Delta closed its Frankfurt operation in 1996 because of its high operating costs. Subsequently, its flight attendant base in Warsaw was no longer needed. As for Tel Aviv, the transit through Paris Orly also proved to be a money loser thus the closure of the flight attendant base in Israel. As for Mumbai in 2007, high transit costs in Frankurt and the availability of the 777 resulted in a direct stop to Mumbai. These were business decisions to reduce costs; not to protect U.S.based F/A's.
Hollytbo's "outsourcing" concern makes for great discussion. Both AFA UA and NW have provisions for foreign nationals, DL does not! DOL: web:"foreign labor certification programs are generally designed to assure that the admission of foreign workers to work in the United States on a permanent or temporary basis will not adversely affect the job opportunities, wages and working conditions of American workers.
Delta BRAGS about having the LOWEST cost Flight Attendants...That means they the LOWEST pay and benefits of ALL major carriers. So much for NON UNION "direct" relationship.
How can you believe someone like FORMER Northwest CEO Richard Anderson when his background at NWA is OHHHH So different than the song is now sings.
I will Laugh my ass off when Delta FA REMAIN the lowest pay...after voting against a Union.
Titan: No, I did not grow up in a union. In fact, I worked for a non-union airline before coming to NWA. Yes, AFA valuation of proposal made sure we (NW FAs) didn't give one penny more than the bankruptcy court required. In total, we got 30 million improvements over what our 'former' union gave up (and which the court required). Plus, we got 182 million equity claim. Those are facts - not 'inacuracies'.
Extending the voting by 3 hours was to accommodate last minute voters -- there is nothing wrong or unethical about it. Its no different than keeping a polling place open late on election night. What is your point - do you think anyone at AFA would know HOW last minute FA voted? Of course not. You are grasping at straws.
No, I think afa is grasping. I agree with Justthetruthafa...the are more inaccuracies and half infomation in afa literature than I can count. dgcampbell007...you are a NW F/A (who hasn't flown in how long?) who can only understand the union perspective, having grown up in that environment. We have a different perspective here.
"Valuation" of proposals? Does that mean afa determined certain proposals were worth more than the previous union did?
You don't understand how the 'valuation' of proposals work. Yes, TA#3 was worth 30million more, because AFA's 'valuation' of the proposals was far better than our previous union.
The same shenanigans AFA accuses DL of is what they did at NW. After 2 TA rejections by the NWA flight attendants, the election count deadline of TA 3 was extended 3 hours, Think that was honest? AFA has claimed $30 million dollars in improvements between TA 1, TA 2 and the AFA negotiated TA 3. Where? The BK judge said $195 mil, $195 mil is still $195mil . Shifting the numbers around is just that, shifting numbers. Think that AFA rhetoric was honest?
The only lies and hypocrisy have been coming from the AFA side. AFA leads you to believe that by voting yes, we will get everything back we lost...Please. Why not be honest and tell us how difficult it is to negotiate a contract in this enviornment? AFA blames the BK laws for their concessionary agreements. With the price of oil and state of the economy, it is no better now than it was then. AFA promises are only words, if AFA cant tell us the truth, why should I believe these promises?
Excellent, Justthetruthafa...whether you have a union or not, it is the economy that drives the compensation...and considering the concessionary nature of "bargaining"...that in itself tells the story.
titansqueen: Please remember your position when your job is farmed out overseas. That's right, the "global economy" is our market place. Want to keep your life what it is today?..vote AFA. Otherwise, hope you have a plan "B".
AFA give us all the facts...now that is funny. When AFA compares the salaries of 4 AFA carriers and DL, AFA failed to give us the TRUTH or FACTS. Then there is the lack of complete facts regarding 401K contributions between DL and NW. Yes DL only contributes 2% to each employee, they also match the employee up to 5%. How much does NW match? zero. If it was not for rhetoric the AFA would not have a campaign. AFA accuses DL of being less than truthful...Take a look in the mirror AFA.
the entire 'anti-union' campaign is founded upon lies and hypocrisy. It is sad and unfortunate that some workers allow themselves to be manipulated by these tactics. The stronger union membership is, the stronger our middle class is - not to mention it is the only way we are going to advance our Flight Attendant profession.
Isn't it interesting that Richard Anderson and all the other execs are drilling into you that just how bad it'll be if the Delta employees become contract labor and yet THERE ISN'T A SINGLE ONE OF THEM THAT HIRED ONTO DELTA WITHOUT SIGNING A CONTRACT OF THEIR OWN?
Soooo - Richard Anderson needs a contract to suck as much money out of DAL and yet he's trying to convince his employees that having a contract themselves is bad?
I think it is obvious that the people here who don't want a union have decided that on their own...I have been flying for a very long time...longer than some of you who warn us to look at Delta's history...heck, I am Delta's history! I have never wanted a union and don't see a reason to change that opinion. I recognize this is a new day. I have had many of them in my career. I don't think the union contract is as effective as you would like to think based on my own research.
Well said Titansqueen and if they have an employment contract, I assure you is much different than a union negotiated contract. I would entertain a "performance based" contract like the ones activists point out to scare the masses. I come to work, do my job, meet my performance goals and objectives. That being said, I would make more than those who "manipulate" the system. Look beyyond NW in DTW, General Motors can not produce enough cars and sell them profitably due past union contracts.
1. in 1991 DL had foreign national F/A bases in WAW, TLV, BOM and DEL. These were inherited from the 11/1/91 PAA acquisition. All are now gone including the contract F/As who operated the CDG-Chennai as of 4/2007.
2. To the best of my knowledge UA, AA and NW all have foreign national's flying their "metal."
3. A check of the ATA and Aloha AFA sites revealed no You tube video of past promises from corporate or union leaders.
I am excited about the NW merger and look forward to welcoming them (you) to DL. I have experienced/witnessed much change in both my personal and professional life since graduating from college and beginning my aviation career 32 years ago. DL is far from perfect; however, I still see values and guiding principles that are woven into corporate culture and fabric (now light blue leather) of who we are today; a new reinvented Delta! The discussion and video bites do not tell the whole story.
p.s. the notion that bad workers can't be fired under a contract is just silly. Have "just cause" protection simply gives everyone the right to face their accuser and tell their side of the story. It's the backbone of our legal system & democracy. Why shouldn't we have it in our workplace? It sounds like Delta really pits you against each other - that's really sad and unattractive.
Iluvmydelta: You can't be serious. You self represent yourself? Really? How about tomorrow you go into IFS and demand the same 18,000 Equity & Cash payments we negotiated and received when we came out of bankruptcy. Take a picture of the supervisor's face for me - I'd love to see it. LOL ! Face it, you have NO collective power. Maybe you like it that way - great for you.
This is exactly the reason that AFA is so wrong. Why would I demand anything from my company that I'm not entitled to? I've accepted my employment under my own free will with the full understanding of my pay, benefits and work rules. I am also under no disillusion that things may (must) change to remain viable. AFA does not support my company; you've proven it time and again. The photographic moment will be to watch AFA fail again.
That $18,000 equity & cash payment NW and AFA talk about was worth how much cash? $10,000 was placed in their 401K. If the F/A received the top amount only $8,000 would have been in cash. At DL between the exit bonus and stock most F/A's did hit the $8,000mark if not above, so who made out better? Mr./Ms. Campbell before you start laughing maybe AFA should tell the complete story, what a concept that would be.
Yes, I agree Delta FAs have HAD it good. But you are about to be introduced to a whole new world, sister...so you'd better think about the present and future, because the past is not going to protect you. Two years from now, your 'pleas' and 'testimony' about Daddy Delta will ring hallow in the empty crew lounges of the future "Delta". Well, unless you intend to move to India or China.
Titan: Again, your misreading shows that you prescribe the choice of "good and evil" where it doesn't belong. Some corporate leaders and politicians may view the titled I gave RA as a shrewd and brilliant business man. But, 10,000 FAs with 'pink slips' most likely wouldn't see it that way. It's not my job to judge the character. I'd rather advocate for OUR interests and negotiate protections. It's a better use of time and energy.
The most bitter FAs I have heard from recently are those who seem to resent the very idea of having real power at work. I think those of us who are used to it, are reasonably 'at ease' with ourselves.
Never needed your rendition of "power"...I have my own...it is called a healthy company and the intelligence to speak my own thoughts...not do the will of the masses. It is amazing that when you identify issues and present solutions with logic and fact, how easily the company listens.
FACT: We have it pretty darn good here at Delta. I hope the 8000 NW flight attendants you threaten will be mad at me will find it the same.
TITAN: The mere fact that you add the word 'evil' to RA displays a lack of recognition that having legacy protections is not about "good and evil". Too many of you seem to have bought into the false idea that choosing to have self-representation is somehow not consistent with having good relations - or that you are flawed if you don't bow down in total compliance to your executives. How un-American is that?
How on earth can you say AFA = self-representation? Don't we currently represent ourselves here at Delta? Is your image of "self-representation", "collective bargaining" (note the oxymoron)? I (me, myself and I) represent my-self. I don't want to be associated with the cynical slackers that my company can't rid themselves of because of a union. I want to stand on my own merit (and work record). The hypocrisy continues.
Hang in there TITANQUEEN. Great points!! I'd chime in, but I've been silenced (warned) by the dictatorial leadership of this board. Goes to show you how the loud minority operates.
To Mr. Campbell; things will be all better in a few days. You'll be working for the best air line in the world, where happy people fly and you'll find that bitter cynicism of yours slipping away. Just add the soft music...can you feel it??
Since I worked with Anderson, I feel confident in saying he is the king of outsourcing. Mike Campbell is the co-founder of the anti-union firm, Ford & Harrison.
Hmm-mmm-mmm...I distinctly remember reading that you respected and had a great working relationship with Mr. Anderson...
But my question was really for lamiavoce123...when you make the statement you can't trust our CEO and top leaders I want facts from that person...I have already read your stuff.
I did have a great relationship with Anderson - but then again, we had a legal contract. In other words, take the fence down and the hen house is far more vulnerable to the wolves. Delta FAs will be incredibly sorry if they find themselves having 40% of thier jobs shipped overseas. Then, it's too late to undo the damage.
So, RA only had a great relationship with you because you had a legal (vs illegal?)contract? That doesn't speak well for you.
Yes, we would be sorry to have 40% of our jobs outsourced. However, you have no more a crystal ball than I do so using all these "what if" tactics is useless. Give me facts that show why this would be the way Delta would go and I might hear you better.
FACT: Richard Anderson oversaw the negotiations strategy that loosened the AMFA mechanics job protections then outsourced their jobs.
FACT: As recently as the last few months, NWA is still lamenting their inability to outsource our Int'l flights. This isn't a 'scare tactic' sister, it's coming to YOUR Delta whether you like it (or accept it). If you are foolish enough to not protect yourself, don't blame AFA, because 8000 of us at NWA will be blaming YOU.
ilovemydelta & titansqueen: You guys..IFS has NO RULES..subjective at best..Let's pull files and have a look if we could..Also, folks, Delta is now going back and reviewing your entire work record as a weapon against you..carte blanche. Sad. I say each of us should retain an attorney on "stand by"..the days ahead are dark.
Delta will outsource our jobs and is reviewing everyone's files to clean house...man...you are paranoid, aren't you? What deep dark secrets do you hold??
BTW, I feel pretty certain that I would not need to retain a lawyer if anyone reviewed my work record...and I am okay with it if they do.
titansqueen: sorry luv, but I was in mgmt. I know EXACTLY what's going on. And wouldn't the likes of you and your colleagues love to know what else I know. You're not getting what I am saying..employed at WILL means just that. I've seen the likes of many come and go over the years. Without a contract, REPRESENTATION, Delta Airlines will continue to do what ever they "feel like doing" regarding non contract employees. And right now, they are DOING IT. Tell them all hello.
I still maintain that if you are doing your job, you have nothing to fear...and no, I really don't care to "know what you know"...like most afa discussions, your inuendos are simply that...without facts, it is a useless conversation. BTW, it is (and always has been) Delta Air Lines...3 words.
Titansqueen: sorry, no, doing "your job" is the day of C.E. Woolman..your words were my words at one time..like the Constitution is set up..CHECKS AND BALANCE. Please remember, Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I NEVER wanted a union at Delta! I wish we didn't need a "contract"..but WE DO. I wish my former IFS Leaders were available to share how much they 'regret' compromising THIER flight attendant colleagues by following mgmt. position. WAKE UP! PLEASE!!
In fairness you can start your own YouTube channel and ban me from it. Which brings me to my next point.
I don't want to spend my day deleting your posts, so at any time if I continue to have these lengthy posts, I will ban you. I don't want to do that because you are a laugh riot, but I will do it.
I've chosen my words wisely. I've also had ample support in the length of my posts. Secondly, I have a lot of friends (50% +1 and growing) I won't post again (thanks for the warning) and you may delete one; however I would like to point out that as you support AFA and claim to want a voice in a democratic process, does not appear to be your same views you support in attempting to limit a voice that disagrees with you.. A bit hypocritical, don't you think?
Gee I didn't thing you'd come back with that (not). I want to clarify again, this is about courtesy. I want this to be an open forum. Your views are welcome, just be aware that long posts are not good netiquette. Thanks
luvmydelta: Firstly, without going into detail about the discrepancies in your tirade on simple economics and your obsession with mail carriers, an airline contract contains many more components than just pay.
Secondly, get some friends to talk this out with. You obviously have a lot to say. Which brings me to my next point.
I warned you earlier about being a cyber hog. Your are taking too much space with your rants, so I am limiting you to 5 posts per day. I will delete all others. cont..
You have also proven my point above. Apparently you'd like a job that offers being home every night and have holidays off, like a mailman? Then, by all mean, become a mailman. I doubt Delta (or any airline) will fly their schedule as it is convent for you. You make it sound like you had no idea what being a fa entailed prior to your employment. Careful of the biting dogs though. And I'm not sure they'll allow you to take the P.O. jeep on vacation.
ILuvmydelta: Hi Joan! Hi Sandy! Great communication! At lease "mail man" makes a decent wage...sorry you don't think so much of Delta flight attendants.
As I stated above, if a mailman's salary is what you desire, become a mailman. What, in your opinion, constitutes a "decent wage"? A mailman with 10-20 yrs of service makes approx $22.22 per hour or $46,217.60 per year. (look it up) The average salary for a Delta fa with the same years of service is eerily similar.
Hey, I say that's not too bad. No free lunch here..If delta mgmt see's flight attendants as cocktail waitress's then maybe we've asked for it..Which by the way, is where we are heading.
A mailman's salary is offset in the cost of a stamp. Stamps continue to rise in price, however, you'll still use the US postal service b/c there is no alternative. The same goes for airline expenses. Operating costs (including wages) are offset in the price of a ticket. Unfortunately, the consumer has choices and typically goes for the lowest fare.
So, let's say for instance, you feel a "decent wage" is $100k per year. Your wages will ultimately end up in the cost of a ticket. When the ticket becomes too expensive, the consumer will purchase a seat elsewhere. At the end of the day, there is no more company to provide you with a job. This is happening in the auto industry right now. US auto makers can not compete and therefore are losing money. Soon, they'll be like the steel workers...no job at all.
Your concern about global outsourcing is going to happen, IF you continue to make unreasonable demands on the company, that they can no longer compete. No one could imagine 30 years ago that Toyota could overtake General Motors as the market leader with those crappy little compact cars. You will not protect your jobs with a union, you will fast track your company into insolvency and the global competition is just waiting to pounce.
Furthermore, if your rational rings true, then perhaps you believe that the teenager working for McDonalds deserves a "decent wage" for flipping a burger and serving you a happy meal. What should that be? $20.00 per hour? Of course your happy meal will cost about $13.00 each and on your salary, you'd opt for Burger King instead. This is basic economics.
So before you go blaming management (which I am not) about your personal financial woes (or wishes), you should ask yourself if you have made wise personal choices, in the career that you've chosen, the car you drive, the spouse you married (and/or divorced), money you saved (and/or spent). Delta, like any company is not responsibly for your fiscal wellbeing. It is yours and yours alone.
hey girl..my mistake..Joanne..been doing the nursing thing and was not aware Joan Wilson(how I know her) had left? Hmmm...No silly statement here. I hope you have a plan "B".
The mere fact that you question whether I've passed 1st grade, brings into question your educational background (or lack there of). It would seem reasonable to assume that as an employee of Delta, who requires a minimum of a high school diploma, that I would have surpassed 1st grade. If you want to slam, be my guest, but at least try to stay on point. As I've pointed out, AFA and their supporters are purely emotional with no facts. Continue to loath in self pity with your defeat....enjoy.
What would AFA do to curb your concerns? Would you suggest to strand the paying passengers? And how exactly would AFA have control of a late arriving hotel shuttle? Furthermore, after your 15 hr shift and 8 hr layover, you may end up with 4,5,6 days off. More than you can say for the poor mailman.
You see lubmydelts, a contract is in place to address those exact issues. It doesn't make the shuttle arrive on time, it gives you the ability to sleep and be rested when it does. Paying passengers shouldn't be the victims of AFA or a poorly scheduled airline that pushes the limits so far there is no room for unexpected issues. The mailman is home every night and has every holiday off.
You've failed to address what is being pointed out; that "unexpected issues" are the extreme not the norm. Are you suggesting that AFA can control the weather and mechanical issues by virtue of having additional reserve fa's to cover the shift? At the overhead expense of what? That's like saying FEMA should have 200K of personal on standby in case of a hurricane Katrina at the expense of the taxpayer.
To point out the extreme rather than the norm is, frankly, misrepresenting the facts. Does a mailman have to work extra hard on tax day or holiday Christmas cards? There are extremes in every industry. We as fa's are subject from time to time with irregular operations based on weather or mechanical problems.
I'm okay with weather and mechanical delays....they happen and no, AFA cannot prevent those. How fas are handled--that is something AFA can handle better than Delta. We can be replaced when we go illegal. You are likely to respond by saying 'we can do so now, we have work rules now.' we can go round and round on this. i shouldn't have to fight to enforce the rules. My mom just retired from American(she was fa). Granted, it's different union, but it's just about rules. continued..
they never argued with their company about whether they could 'just go ahead and take the flight' (how many times have you heard that or something similiar?) it's cut and dry.
iluvmydelta...I knew the wages and work rules when i signed on and they were great :) that was then, this is now. of course i would like to make as much as i used to, but i'm not unrealistic--post 9/11...you know the rest of that story. But work rules??? where did they go?? yes, they have gotten better recently, but the threat of the union was right there. We all know how bad summer gets...let's see if those work rules hold up. i'm lucky to fly intl, but commute.domestic trips get bad!
Yes, work rules changed when Delta was attempting a broad based effort to become more efficient. And I agree they went way too far, but if you do a comparison from a couple of years ago to now, you will find our work rules have done almost a 360. And we have added features we would never have been able to have before...jetway trades, out of base swaps, flying as much or little as we want...do a complete comparison.
As far as summer goes, if you know your work rules, you will have control.
I think you mean a 180. I don't dispute that rules have changed. I would even say the threat of a union got a lot of those changes. Please remember that these changes are at the behest of mgmt. and could be revoked at any time by this group or the next. A contract could have the same things, just in legally binding fashion. Jetway trades came from SWA and their contract BTW.
No, I meant 360, where the starting point is our pre CBS work rules...
I am okay with the threat of a union. Just don't want those binding parts that keep me from getting improvements quickly when they are warranted. BTW...Delta implemented jetway trades...I don't really care where the idea came from...there was nothing forcing Delta to do it, so I am thinking you can't give credit to someone else's contract.
Remember that a threat is just that and once the threat is gone, so is any power associated with it. These things can go away as quickly as they came. My comment about SWA was to make the point that these things are not exclusive to a contract-free airline.
The common usage of your phrase is 180 as in doing a turnaround.
You are probably right about the 180...but I am not common...:-)
The threat is always there...afa will always need the money...uh, membership...
I understand you feel more comfortable with the binding nature of a contract, and I can respect that, honestly. I view it more as a hinderance though...and the problem is, there is no way for you to have what you want, and me to have what I want within the same group. However, you have other avenues for your ideal...I don't...Delta is it
You are right to worry that improvements could take longer with a union. But I am willing to trade that for:
-having work rules in writing, that can be enforced without haggling :)
-prevent or minimize outsourcing (which seems to be happening in all industries)
-having a 'go to' person who can answer questions and knows the correct answer. don't know about you, but my supervisor can rarely be reached, responds slowly and often incorrectly.
iluvmydelta...it's hard to believe you think we can really rely on OSHA and the FAA to protect us. Change doesn't happen thru those organizations until there have been thousands of complaints, a few years of research, and piles of paperwork.
About what our CEO makes...I do think he should be paid more, as should our pilots. I think the concern about excessive pay is not unique to Delta or the airlines. CEOs across the board are making too much, but that's a different topic.
deltalovie...If we can't depend on FAA and OSHA, why then does AFA spend so much time and money on Capital Hill lobbying and pushing in those arenas? If they are so useless, what is the point?
Because the FAA and OSHA work for us. They are government agencies that haven't done their job. AFA is a group of professionals that, through their collective strength, are trying to affect change for the better. That is one reason I want to join AFA. It is a group that furthers the profession in all arenas. BTW, your typo of Capital is quite amusing. Did you do that on purpose? I like it.
It seems like you answered yourself here? The FAA and OSHA have to be pushed. If no one brings their attention to a problem or God forbid a plane crashes, not much will happen. I'm not saying they are incompetent or useless, but they definitely need a 'fire under their asses' so to speak, to get something done :)
Lastly, please be more specific on your right to change things. Please outline your rights as they were prepared for you upon you employment with Delta.
luvmydelta: Thanks for your ongoing (and ongoing, and ongoing, and ongoing) comment thread. But seriously, couldn't you get your own channel if you have so much to say. Your are starting to get boring. Courtesy to the others please. Thanks.
Actually, AFA4DAL, I rather liked Iluvmydelta's eloquence...it may be boring to you because afa supporters generally go for the sound bites, rather than full details.
I do not believe the constitution of the United States (Your rights at birth as an American) granted you any provisions to strong-arm your employer. Lets leave your 0-18 years of life out of this discussion as it has no consequence, along with your family, friends, neighbors and the guy picking through your trash. You claim "you have the right to change things". Simply provide clarification as it pertains to your "right" to do so.
The Railway Labor Act gives me the right to organize a union. Simple enough for you, or do you need to post another 40 times to try to prove your point?
Your new AFA agenda claiming "risk exposure to poor air quality, blood-borne viruses including HIV and Hepatitis B, cosmic radiation and noise. As well as "expected to perform excessive lifting, pushing, pulling and carrying - including carry-on baggage and poorly designed food and beverage carts". Sound to me like a walk through the mall. What next on your agenda, banning bananas? "you could poke an eye out" Not quite a lob over the net. Put your arms down, no point for notrational.
My agenda? I think exposure to the things you mention could be an issue with any group dealing with it. The lack of OJI support from most companies and insurance providers necessitates some kind of approach to injury in our occupation. Are you saying prevention isn't warranted? Delta disagrees with you there. TSA took care of bananas.
3rd. As usual, AFA is mistaken. In reference to the "Glowing discrepancy" you so modestly boasted; OSHA regulates everything from door height to jet way safety. (look it up) The FAA and NTSB also lend a hand. The FAA is exclusively responsible for the in-flight safety (as it should be)
First, I'm not management. I'm a NYC based fa. It's amazing how AFA will immediately conclude that management is always behind some big conspiracy.
2nd They're your webcast's and venues not mine. You can continue to go there and spew your venom, incite paranoia and think of new ways to create hysteria. Enjoy.
Re-read what you just said. It seems you have just admitted to a big conspiracy. And I'm the paranoid one. Sounds like you might be concerned that the Delta flight attendants are in support of a legal voice of their own.
My first question is what level of management at Delta are you?
Secondly, most of your diatribe has been answered in our webcasts and other venues. Also many people here will answer you, so I won't rain on their parade.
One glowing discrepancy: OSHA doesn't protect us in the workplace. That's something AFA is trying to change. Nice lob over the net for me, thanks.
Lastly, I don't have to quit. I have the right to change things. I will use it.
Delta also has the best reserve in the business, not to mention crew runners ect.... Why would Delta continue these benefits with AFA in charge? AFA has yet to negotiate anything of this sort for their "voting brothers and sisters. Do your research people, before you make a mistake.
Part 7: Lastly, ask yourself why you need AFA. Then ask yourself why AFA need you. You should come to the quick conclusion that they need you more than you need them. Delta pays better than most AFA represented carriers (it may be all, not sure, but I will research that)
Part 6: To all you "whiners" claiming to have 10-15-20 years in and still complaining. If you hate it that bad, quit. We actually don't want your cynical negativity on the airplane. Our paying passengers sure don't want you. Yep, those paying passengers who pay our salary. You've lost sight of your job a long time ago. I'm sure the only reason you're hanging around is for your non-rev benefits anyway.
We all knew the wages and work rules when we entered this profession. Now you want to join forces to strong arm your company into things that may or may not be beneficial to them. What gives you the right? Nothing! Buy some stock, and have a say. If not, shut up!
Part 5: We all have an "at will" employment at Delta. We have the luxury to leave any time we want. This includes, being dissatisfied with our wages or work rules. Is there anyone in our profession that naive to think our wages should be that of a pilot or CEO?
Iluvmydelta: Your right!!! Delta flight attendant skill set: 1. no college 2. prior work experience: bar tender Rate of Pay?: $10/hr. You are so funny and foolish..but hey, Mgmt is loving you right now.
FAA will regulate you work rules. OHSA will regulate you safety and the dept of labor will sat a minimum to your wage. Yes, I said "minimum". The maximum is what the market will bear.
Part 4: Ask your AFA union representative why the united flight attendants have begun to organize to rid themselves of AFA and several other airlines are talking about following suit. (just Google it). Why the United pilots have just kicked ALPA to the curb. Unions had a purpose in the "sweatshop" era. But now, they are no longer needed. The strong-arm Gestapo tactics are history.
The auto industry (look how their doing. They don't have to look over their shoulder anymore to see Toyota coming). The failed education system (thank a union for tenure). The construction industry (yep, those guy's leaning on the "men at work" signs) Can't fire them though, they have union protection!!!
Part 3: The AFA like all unions are dead. Union membership has gone from almost ½ the population in the 50's to less than 8% (excluding Governmental). Some of the businesses still under union strong-arming;
40x or 400x, Danny what difference does it make? Don't we want a qualified person steering the ship (or flying the plane)? These day's folk's, CEO's don't come cheap. Go bargain shopping and see what you'll get.
ILuvmydelta: Just wanted to say I agree with you..Richard Anderson is a great leader..I am grateful to have him onboard. Inflight is another ball game all together..with all do respect. I'm hear to tell you Delta would love to furlough every f/a with over 10 yrs and start over. Sandy Gordon is great..her, along with the rest of IFS leadership is JUST DOING THEIR JOB...you guys need to think long term and outside the box.
Part 2. Would you rather have a high school drop-out running the company you're working for? Have you taken into consideration that if you split Richard Anderson's salary among every Delta employee equally, it would constitute a few cents per hour (far less than those union dues we may be paying).
1. Why do you care what Richard Anderson makes? (or; as you say "lining his pockets") Do you feel you deserve part of his paycheck? Did you achieve the qualifications it takes to become a CEO of a fortune 500 company? I think not. This is typical union tactics trying to create some mass hysteria. If you want to make a CEO's salary, go do it! Become a CEO and grab the big bucks. Although you may need to be a bit more qualified than a flight attendant.
You pro-AFA union people are unbelievable!!! Get the facts and STOP getting fueled by pure emotions. Someone grabbed a few sound bites, stuck it on you tube and what do you get??? Hypocrisy! Was this video attempting to inform you of "fair play"? Who stuck it on here, to shove in your face, this false negativity? The "fair playing" union..hummm? Continued...
I am voting FOR AFA...one big reason is because I am worried about outsourcing. That is a real threat. Some of the other reasons:
1. Delta has improved our work rules, pay, etc recently, but without the threat of the union, that will go by the wayside.
2. If we don't get a union this time, it will be a while before there is another vote, and we will suffer again. (work rules will disappear...as we've seen in the summers before).
3. I want rules in writing! I want to be able to refer to something when I have a question. I want to consistently get the SAME answer to a question. If you've ever been out on STD or maternity, you know how ridiculous/inconsistent the procedures are for being out. I have yet to be out when everything went as it should. I can't imagine what someone with a debilitating illness does.
I know everyone has their reasons, but I just thought I would mention why I decided for AFA.
if we vote a union in before the merger, then afa's policy is to merge by straight date of hire, right? then why not merge without the union, let delta bust their butt to get us something better than straight 'date of hire', then if we still want a union, there will be another vote anyways?? please clarify if i misunderstood??
Do you really trust Delta to give you a better deal? They have violated seniority at every turn: Song--the most junior flight attendants flying transcon turns, an unaccountable bidding system--CBS, first come/first sever open time. In reality, Delta flight attendants have more seniority than NW. We have nothing to fear with a straight date of hire integration. Moreover, a second vote is not a certainty. Delta is trying to thwart the NMB's 35% union shop rule by hiring thousands of new F/A's.
Not quite true...in some sections of the seniority list, NW is very much senior to DL F/As. The most advantageous way to integrate is to look at each section and integrate so that no one loses relative seniority...e.g., if I am in the top 10% at Delta, I should be in the top 10% in the combined group. Straight date of hire will not do that for many DL F/As...especially those at the top of the seniority list. By the way, MGMT does not decide, DL and NWF F/As elected by peers will.
deltalovie: Let me guess...You have less than 10 yrs with Delta? Just thinking about yourself..sorry, date of hire is the industry and what must be protected. I worked myself to death for 12 yrs and don't plan on watching that go "up in smoke" to someone junior who has not. And let me tell you ALL..Delta has violated your seniority since Sharon Wibben RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE.
Hollytbo....nope, I have 12 years with the company. What do you mean just thinking of myself? If we had the exact same breakdown in our seniority groups, I wouldn't be worried. I doubt that is the case. I am thinking more along the lines of what Titansqueen is saying....our seniority groups are going to be different and that needs to be considered when merging our fas. I don't think what I am saying is that outrageous.
Deltalovie: I respect your position. However, Anderson is not attempting to bust up NW union for "nothing". Please hear me. My generation of f/a's worked hard, I mean HARD..(why we were hired) which is the right thing. I am now a nurse (thank goodness, with a skill and say in my life!) who still loves my job and what I know Delta "once" was..no matter what it has become. Like I must have a license as a nurse, F/A's MUST HAVE A CONTRACT. Just business. You must protect yourself.
Hollytbo, Congratulations on becoming a nurse...that is wonderful! I have immense respect for your work and know it to hard at times but often rewarding.
I am confused...if you are now a nurse, why is this election so important to you? I don't think it is RA who is trying to "bust up NW union"...it's the Delta F/As who are in the election process. I see a lot of F/As sporting those Say NO to AFA bagtags...I would say there are a large number of F/As who are trying to keep a union from getting us in a concessionary trap. The right bargain means I give to get...many feel passionate about staying union free so that we aren't caught in that culture.
titansqueen: don't be confused..I'm smart, educated and informed. Reasons why Delta hired me in the first place. The election is important to me and to the future of Delta flight attendants. While you all are sporting NO AFA bagtags, mgmt is developing long range plans to recruit oversee's..Girl, this merger is more than seniority..its your job at stake. Employment laws are changing..pay attention before it' too late. Me? I'm thankful I'm not a victim & did something before it was too late.
I remember when I was reviewing American Airlines and Delta as to which company I'd like to work for..I did not believe in unions and made my decision based on the quality of the company's character..hense picked Delta. I stood by this principle until one year ago..even after my mgmt stint and post Sharon Wibben. I'd been disappointed enough. Our government is founded on checks and balances ie: Congress, Excecutive Branch and the House of Rep..delta needs accountability!
As a 17 yr Delta flight attendant I was a "stupid fool" believing that Delta would "do the right thing" by the employees. I was also an Inflight Supervisor and can tell you folks that the company could care less about YOU. WAKE UP! Now or never.
Kind of scary...to think you were a supervisor and felt the comany didn't care...however, I say the company is us...all of us...if we are doing the right thing, does it not follow?
very scary that I was a part of things you know nothing about and took part in...finally doing the right thing by leaving and going back to flying. It is nice to believe the company is "all of us"...you'll be wondering about this when Delta begins recruiting oversee's in the next 5 yrs. We need a contract to protect YOUR job and MINE. Nice thing about me is I've been on the inside and KNOW WHAT GOES ON. It's sad. Have a blessed day!
What amazes me, is how these highly intelligent business people can keep a straight face when they mislead FAs that having a legal contract somehow changes the "feel good" relationship with their company. They know the two are not mutually exclusive.
TITANQUEEN: You ask "why in the world should we expect our leadership to be neutral?" How about because the LAW requires it? You have to ask exactly WHY your executives don't want you to have a legal contract - especially when they have one themselves.
Actually, I believe the law says the leadership can't interfere with or hinder the process...I don't believe having an opinion is interference. And if Richard tells you he doesn't believe you need a union, does that mean you will succumb to his word and not vote for one? Oh...I forgot,dgcampbell
Fortunately the sun has set on the NWA AFA and Delta will remain non-union. Fuck off AFA
737823 1 year ago
Last I heard Sharon Wibben was some sort of Wal-Mart Executive.
CubsFanJohn 2 years ago
Do you honestly think you have 72% support for AFA within NW fa's rank and file? From the rumbling I've heard, they're sour grapes with AFA. Furthermore, with 60 years of paying dues with no benefits, while being brainwashed into thinking the company and management are the enemy, maybe...just maybe, they're ready for a change.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
I believe AFA will not get near as many votes from Delta's fa's as they did the first time as some (most) were coerced with a barrage of endless phone calls and propaganda. They're on to those tactics now. Also, with all the fa's taking the early out and fresh new-hire's (their vote will count this time) that don't support AFA it's going to get even harder.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
I deeply appreciate your concern for my well being (I think) as I would not want to misinterpret your post as wishing something horrible on someone. You can rest assure, I'm quite savvy on my feet as I'm used to walking up and down the isle, not sitting on the phone. And the irony of taking managements advice???...screams hypocrisy.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
I must remind you that the campaign goes on!
Delta management told us to wait for the second election and we will take their advice, along with 8000 NWA f/a's that have been with a contract for 60 years. Talk to you soon. Don't trip over your own feet during your "victory" dance. But if you do, and you die, Delta will still keep you on the roster to be a "No" vote the next time around.
AFA4DAL 3 years ago
i'm hopefull delta mgt will do what is right by the employees in the days ahead. this is most important. enjoyed dialoging with you guys!
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Now the real work begins. We must build bridges due to the polarization caused by the election. Inflammatory rhetoric has no place in the fabric of the largest airline on the planet. We have such a wonderful opportunity to show the industry and a watching world how it can be done with teamwork and style. I am up for the challenge and trust others will join with me as we prepare for the arrival of our NWA colleagues. The future is now.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
Going back to my victory dance now. Seeeya!!!!
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
"NO" means NO!!! We said it in 2002 we've said in now and we'll have to do it again. But, we only need 20% of the NW fa's to be dissatisfied with AFA to win again (that shouldn't be hard given AFA's track record.) We also learned your underhanded endless phone call tactics and they won't be as effective next time around.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
We are union free and proud. All the lies from the AFA have shown through. Just look what happened..61% of us at Delta said NO TO A UNION.
Its a great day at Delta. Maybe now the afa will stop calling and harassing me. Can't wait to see you all with your dumb ass AFA pins on..losers!!
melike2flydal 3 years ago
Part II: I think our EIG F/As have done much to improve our process and procedures. You can read about their past and current projects on the DL Web.
So tell me, what have the DL AFA activists accomplished for the Delta F/As? I am always happy to engage these colleagues in conversation; however, many prefer not to talk with those with facts or who share a different opinion. I would not elect many of the vocal AFA supporters because of their behavior and the misinformation shared with others.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
AFA$DAL: You have not, many others have FPL. I am not a core team EIG; however, I can assure you FPL is not offered like in the past FAST, Forum or SPL Assign. days. The pay information is posted for all:
# When any EIG member is called upon for project work, special assignment pay at the standard IFS rate of $25.00 per hour for each hour of work is applied.
# Trip drops are not common within EIG core team members as protecting the operation is part of the foundation of the EIG philosophy.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
Indeed, i know both Aloha and ATA (both AFA represented companies) are defunct. If your comment was directed at me, I just wanted all to know their respective AFA web sites do not have any You Tube video clips. AFA has posted very little commentary or any current information for the effected F/As, only links to other assist sites. It appears AFA National is very busy covering FPL to DL activists who are missing trips to be in the lounge or on phone banks . A good investment? I think not!
DLDahlie 3 years ago
How much do EIG members get for their trips?
What have they done for Delta f/as?
Anytime flight attendants miss trips they miss money. I personally haven't taken a dime from the AFA for any time missed.
AFA4DAL 3 years ago
Comment removed
JHinMiami 3 years ago
Hollytbo: Your definition of trust is excellent; we definitely share common ground there. Also believe we are both passionate about our jobs and do them as consummate professionals. I suspect we both have shared some of the good,bad & ugly in our careers. Had some disappointments; however, never have felt thrown in front of the bus. Want to understand your experiences, do you feel free to elaborate? I understand we must run a good business and feel the DL today is a better franchise than the 70s
DLDahlie 3 years ago
DLDahlie: No accountability w/ scheduling, wide margin of opportunity for "error" ie: short calls, call in windows, negating seniority etc. I have saved my schedules and rotations all these years to validate my position. My job was nothing like yours. Yes, there have been improvements. To what end? I have never been "entitled" or expected a "free lunch" from Delta. Now the company wants my generation off the payroll. Mgmt is just doing their job, I understand that..(sigh)
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Hollytbo: Furlough was not an option since IFS was not overstaffed as in previous programs. We need more F/As to fly the proposed schedule, not less. Other departments were in a surplus situation. The comp. made a wise decision to offer this pkg to all who qualified. I had the required 60 pts and did not feel forced to leave. I voted my conscience 32 yrs ago when I selected non union DL. AFA, not you personally, uses many ways to polarize people, destroy loyalty and erode trust. I resent it.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
DLDahlie: I didn't feel "forced out" either. (and I qualified to retire) I was on Reserve for YEARS...trust? loyalty? No one polarized me but Delta's decisions regarding my welfare and the welfare of my colleagues. The equation for trust? Truth + TIME= TRUST. Sorry, not enough time in my book to throw myself in front of the bus again. I do appreciate your position though. I respect that. Your generation is not mine. Sad, but true. You were blessed "back in the day".
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Ohh all this over a DVD? AFA is the ones overtly harrassing delta employees.
dapoes 3 years ago
Checks & balances sounds good in theory Hollytbo. However as you recall after 9/11, airline industry pay "checks" decreased (even for many in Exec ranks) as well as the "balance" in our personal and pension accounts. Yet union leadership did not feel the pain. "Caring" AFA billed furloughed F/As to maintain their "full service" organization. I am fully convinced the threat of unionization will work in the favor of DL F/As. We need open communication not numerous side letters to a bad contract.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
DLDahlie: Yes, AFA billed furloughed f/a's and thank goodness! This is why they have "furlough rights". As you know, Delta is no longer offering "furlough" options to flight attendants as an insentive to leave...delta wants us OUT and OFF THE PAYROLL w/ 10yrs or more. Yes, I'll gladly pay dues to protect the integrity of my job and why I took it.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Our first union was the Teamsters and we made a failed move to go independently and start a union called PFAA. Biggest mistake of NWA FA's careers. NW wanted to outsource our jobs to the Asian bases but AFA was voted in and stopped them. Outsourcing (cheap labor) is their goal.
Yes, let's make Delta/NWA OUR Delta....Americas Delta, not Asia and India's Delta.
Together, we can be a great airline. Pro AFA, Pro Company.
NWADAL 3 years ago
NW already has bases in Bangkok, Manila, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Beijing, Tokyo and Osaka...the two latter bases are the most expensive but they have also been downsized. They will keep them because of the agreement NWA has with Japan, however, they will shrink. They are mostly used as Inflight Service Interpreters, in and out of Japan. Keep in mind that they are also ALL English speaking FA's trained in MSP, by NWA and are FAA qulified and certified.
NWADAL 3 years ago
Protect yourselves ladies and gentlemen!
Have not enough of your agents and mechanics been outsourced by airline management?
The India bases for NW and DL were both closed recently. Another smokescreen.
They WILL reopen them.
NWADAL 3 years ago
I think its funny....that they are getting us ready for all these changes...well Delta execs maybe should take their own advise get ready for change the flight attendants will be union.....they need to understand that Richard is the one that wanted to outsource our jobs to foreign nationals...and he can be done once again overnight without a union.
jboidallas 3 years ago
Had difficulty posting previous text comments so want to clarify a couple points on my previous post:1. DL F/As fly DL metal (planes) worldwide while NW and UA do not. DL leadership has chosen not to take that course and terminated the last Foreign National contract last April.
2. Wonder what AFA Aloha and ATA F/As think of AFA National funding DL activists with flight pay loss for their time to spread the "AFA good news?" Visit their web folks, no You Tube videos or banter of "past promises"
DLDahlie 3 years ago
Delta closed its Frankfurt operation in 1996 because of its high operating costs. Subsequently, its flight attendant base in Warsaw was no longer needed. As for Tel Aviv, the transit through Paris Orly also proved to be a money loser thus the closure of the flight attendant base in Israel. As for Mumbai in 2007, high transit costs in Frankurt and the availability of the 777 resulted in a direct stop to Mumbai. These were business decisions to reduce costs; not to protect U.S.based F/A's.
QueenNY4AFA 3 years ago
Hollytbo's "outsourcing" concern makes for great discussion. Both AFA UA and NW have provisions for foreign nationals, DL does not! DOL: web:"foreign labor certification programs are generally designed to assure that the admission of foreign workers to work in the United States on a permanent or temporary basis will not adversely affect the job opportunities, wages and working conditions of American workers.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
Delta BRAGS about having the LOWEST cost Flight Attendants...That means they the LOWEST pay and benefits of ALL major carriers. So much for NON UNION "direct" relationship.
How can you believe someone like FORMER Northwest CEO Richard Anderson when his background at NWA is OHHHH So different than the song is now sings.
I will Laugh my ass off when Delta FA REMAIN the lowest pay...after voting against a Union.
Cino1 3 years ago
Titan: No, I did not grow up in a union. In fact, I worked for a non-union airline before coming to NWA. Yes, AFA valuation of proposal made sure we (NW FAs) didn't give one penny more than the bankruptcy court required. In total, we got 30 million improvements over what our 'former' union gave up (and which the court required). Plus, we got 182 million equity claim. Those are facts - not 'inacuracies'.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
Extending the voting by 3 hours was to accommodate last minute voters -- there is nothing wrong or unethical about it. Its no different than keeping a polling place open late on election night. What is your point - do you think anyone at AFA would know HOW last minute FA voted? Of course not. You are grasping at straws.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
No, I think afa is grasping. I agree with Justthetruthafa...the are more inaccuracies and half infomation in afa literature than I can count. dgcampbell007...you are a NW F/A (who hasn't flown in how long?) who can only understand the union perspective, having grown up in that environment. We have a different perspective here.
"Valuation" of proposals? Does that mean afa determined certain proposals were worth more than the previous union did?
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
You don't understand how the 'valuation' of proposals work. Yes, TA#3 was worth 30million more, because AFA's 'valuation' of the proposals was far better than our previous union.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
The same shenanigans AFA accuses DL of is what they did at NW. After 2 TA rejections by the NWA flight attendants, the election count deadline of TA 3 was extended 3 hours, Think that was honest? AFA has claimed $30 million dollars in improvements between TA 1, TA 2 and the AFA negotiated TA 3. Where? The BK judge said $195 mil, $195 mil is still $195mil . Shifting the numbers around is just that, shifting numbers. Think that AFA rhetoric was honest?
JustthetruthAFA 3 years ago
The only lies and hypocrisy have been coming from the AFA side. AFA leads you to believe that by voting yes, we will get everything back we lost...Please. Why not be honest and tell us how difficult it is to negotiate a contract in this enviornment? AFA blames the BK laws for their concessionary agreements. With the price of oil and state of the economy, it is no better now than it was then. AFA promises are only words, if AFA cant tell us the truth, why should I believe these promises?
JustthetruthAFA 3 years ago
Excellent, Justthetruthafa...whether you have a union or not, it is the economy that drives the compensation...and considering the concessionary nature of "bargaining"...that in itself tells the story.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
titansqueen: Please remember your position when your job is farmed out overseas. That's right, the "global economy" is our market place. Want to keep your life what it is today?..vote AFA. Otherwise, hope you have a plan "B".
Hollytbo 3 years ago
AFA give us all the facts...now that is funny. When AFA compares the salaries of 4 AFA carriers and DL, AFA failed to give us the TRUTH or FACTS. Then there is the lack of complete facts regarding 401K contributions between DL and NW. Yes DL only contributes 2% to each employee, they also match the employee up to 5%. How much does NW match? zero. If it was not for rhetoric the AFA would not have a campaign. AFA accuses DL of being less than truthful...Take a look in the mirror AFA.
JustthetruthAFA 3 years ago
the entire 'anti-union' campaign is founded upon lies and hypocrisy. It is sad and unfortunate that some workers allow themselves to be manipulated by these tactics. The stronger union membership is, the stronger our middle class is - not to mention it is the only way we are going to advance our Flight Attendant profession.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
Isn't it interesting that Richard Anderson and all the other execs are drilling into you that just how bad it'll be if the Delta employees become contract labor and yet THERE ISN'T A SINGLE ONE OF THEM THAT HIRED ONTO DELTA WITHOUT SIGNING A CONTRACT OF THEIR OWN?
Soooo - Richard Anderson needs a contract to suck as much money out of DAL and yet he's trying to convince his employees that having a contract themselves is bad?
v3games 3 years ago
So trite...
I think it is obvious that the people here who don't want a union have decided that on their own...I have been flying for a very long time...longer than some of you who warn us to look at Delta's history...heck, I am Delta's history! I have never wanted a union and don't see a reason to change that opinion. I recognize this is a new day. I have had many of them in my career. I don't think the union contract is as effective as you would like to think based on my own research.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
Well said Titansqueen and if they have an employment contract, I assure you is much different than a union negotiated contract. I would entertain a "performance based" contract like the ones activists point out to scare the masses. I come to work, do my job, meet my performance goals and objectives. That being said, I would make more than those who "manipulate" the system. Look beyyond NW in DTW, General Motors can not produce enough cars and sell them profitably due past union contracts.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
v3games: Right. It's business. Plain and simple.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
1. in 1991 DL had foreign national F/A bases in WAW, TLV, BOM and DEL. These were inherited from the 11/1/91 PAA acquisition. All are now gone including the contract F/As who operated the CDG-Chennai as of 4/2007.
2. To the best of my knowledge UA, AA and NW all have foreign national's flying their "metal."
3. A check of the ATA and Aloha AFA sites revealed no You tube video of past promises from corporate or union leaders.
4. I want strong company, not a strong contract.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
Did you not know that Aloha Airlines is now defunct? Come to the party, 'Mary'.
vosfistula 3 years ago
I am excited about the NW merger and look forward to welcoming them (you) to DL. I have experienced/witnessed much change in both my personal and professional life since graduating from college and beginning my aviation career 32 years ago. DL is far from perfect; however, I still see values and guiding principles that are woven into corporate culture and fabric (now light blue leather) of who we are today; a new reinvented Delta! The discussion and video bites do not tell the whole story.
DLDahlie 3 years ago
p.s. the notion that bad workers can't be fired under a contract is just silly. Have "just cause" protection simply gives everyone the right to face their accuser and tell their side of the story. It's the backbone of our legal system & democracy. Why shouldn't we have it in our workplace? It sounds like Delta really pits you against each other - that's really sad and unattractive.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
Iluvmydelta: You can't be serious. You self represent yourself? Really? How about tomorrow you go into IFS and demand the same 18,000 Equity & Cash payments we negotiated and received when we came out of bankruptcy. Take a picture of the supervisor's face for me - I'd love to see it. LOL ! Face it, you have NO collective power. Maybe you like it that way - great for you.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
This is exactly the reason that AFA is so wrong. Why would I demand anything from my company that I'm not entitled to? I've accepted my employment under my own free will with the full understanding of my pay, benefits and work rules. I am also under no disillusion that things may (must) change to remain viable. AFA does not support my company; you've proven it time and again. The photographic moment will be to watch AFA fail again.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Well Said Delta Dahlie and Iluvmydelta!
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
That $18,000 equity & cash payment NW and AFA talk about was worth how much cash? $10,000 was placed in their 401K. If the F/A received the top amount only $8,000 would have been in cash. At DL between the exit bonus and stock most F/A's did hit the $8,000mark if not above, so who made out better? Mr./Ms. Campbell before you start laughing maybe AFA should tell the complete story, what a concept that would be.
JustthetruthAFA 3 years ago
Yes, I agree Delta FAs have HAD it good. But you are about to be introduced to a whole new world, sister...so you'd better think about the present and future, because the past is not going to protect you. Two years from now, your 'pleas' and 'testimony' about Daddy Delta will ring hallow in the empty crew lounges of the future "Delta". Well, unless you intend to move to India or China.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago 2
Titan: Again, your misreading shows that you prescribe the choice of "good and evil" where it doesn't belong. Some corporate leaders and politicians may view the titled I gave RA as a shrewd and brilliant business man. But, 10,000 FAs with 'pink slips' most likely wouldn't see it that way. It's not my job to judge the character. I'd rather advocate for OUR interests and negotiate protections. It's a better use of time and energy.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago 2
The most bitter FAs I have heard from recently are those who seem to resent the very idea of having real power at work. I think those of us who are used to it, are reasonably 'at ease' with ourselves.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
Never needed your rendition of "power"...I have my own...it is called a healthy company and the intelligence to speak my own thoughts...not do the will of the masses. It is amazing that when you identify issues and present solutions with logic and fact, how easily the company listens.
FACT: We have it pretty darn good here at Delta. I hope the 8000 NW flight attendants you threaten will be mad at me will find it the same.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
Comment removed
JHinMiami 3 years ago
TITAN: The mere fact that you add the word 'evil' to RA displays a lack of recognition that having legacy protections is not about "good and evil". Too many of you seem to have bought into the false idea that choosing to have self-representation is somehow not consistent with having good relations - or that you are flawed if you don't bow down in total compliance to your executives. How un-American is that?
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
Oh, and I chose "evil" as it was your insinuation...I may have misread the title "king of outsourcing" to be a slam...sorry.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
How on earth can you say AFA = self-representation? Don't we currently represent ourselves here at Delta? Is your image of "self-representation", "collective bargaining" (note the oxymoron)? I (me, myself and I) represent my-self. I don't want to be associated with the cynical slackers that my company can't rid themselves of because of a union. I want to stand on my own merit (and work record). The hypocrisy continues.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Hang in there TITANQUEEN. Great points!! I'd chime in, but I've been silenced (warned) by the dictatorial leadership of this board. Goes to show you how the loud minority operates.
To Mr. Campbell; things will be all better in a few days. You'll be working for the best air line in the world, where happy people fly and you'll find that bitter cynicism of yours slipping away. Just add the soft music...can you feel it??
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
I am hearing Jack Johnson in the background...sounds sweet, don't you think?
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
History had taught us that we can't trust our CEO and top leaders. We need the AFA.
lamiavoce123 3 years ago
Exactly what can you tell me about Richard Anderson, Ed Bastian, Glen Hauenstein, Mike Campbell, Lee Macenczak, and Steve Gorman?
I mean, if you don't trust them, you must have a good bit of information about them. So tell me exactly why you don't trust them?
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
Since I worked with Anderson, I feel confident in saying he is the king of outsourcing. Mike Campbell is the co-founder of the anti-union firm, Ford & Harrison.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
Hmm-mmm-mmm...I distinctly remember reading that you respected and had a great working relationship with Mr. Anderson...
But my question was really for lamiavoce123...when you make the statement you can't trust our CEO and top leaders I want facts from that person...I have already read your stuff.
And more power to Mike Campbell.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
I did have a great relationship with Anderson - but then again, we had a legal contract. In other words, take the fence down and the hen house is far more vulnerable to the wolves. Delta FAs will be incredibly sorry if they find themselves having 40% of thier jobs shipped overseas. Then, it's too late to undo the damage.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
So, RA only had a great relationship with you because you had a legal (vs illegal?)contract? That doesn't speak well for you.
Yes, we would be sorry to have 40% of our jobs outsourced. However, you have no more a crystal ball than I do so using all these "what if" tactics is useless. Give me facts that show why this would be the way Delta would go and I might hear you better.
S
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
FACT: Richard Anderson oversaw the negotiations strategy that loosened the AMFA mechanics job protections then outsourced their jobs.
FACT: As recently as the last few months, NWA is still lamenting their inability to outsource our Int'l flights. This isn't a 'scare tactic' sister, it's coming to YOUR Delta whether you like it (or accept it). If you are foolish enough to not protect yourself, don't blame AFA, because 8000 of us at NWA will be blaming YOU.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
dgcampbell007...Oh...I thought it was RA who was the evil King of Outsourcing...apparently it goes with the territory....not the CEO.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
ilovemydelta & titansqueen: You guys..IFS has NO RULES..subjective at best..Let's pull files and have a look if we could..Also, folks, Delta is now going back and reviewing your entire work record as a weapon against you..carte blanche. Sad. I say each of us should retain an attorney on "stand by"..the days ahead are dark.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Delta will outsource our jobs and is reviewing everyone's files to clean house...man...you are paranoid, aren't you? What deep dark secrets do you hold??
BTW, I feel pretty certain that I would not need to retain a lawyer if anyone reviewed my work record...and I am okay with it if they do.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
titansqueen: sorry luv, but I was in mgmt. I know EXACTLY what's going on. And wouldn't the likes of you and your colleagues love to know what else I know. You're not getting what I am saying..employed at WILL means just that. I've seen the likes of many come and go over the years. Without a contract, REPRESENTATION, Delta Airlines will continue to do what ever they "feel like doing" regarding non contract employees. And right now, they are DOING IT. Tell them all hello.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
I still maintain that if you are doing your job, you have nothing to fear...and no, I really don't care to "know what you know"...like most afa discussions, your inuendos are simply that...without facts, it is a useless conversation. BTW, it is (and always has been) Delta Air Lines...3 words.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
Titansqueen: sorry, no, doing "your job" is the day of C.E. Woolman..your words were my words at one time..like the Constitution is set up..CHECKS AND BALANCE. Please remember, Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I NEVER wanted a union at Delta! I wish we didn't need a "contract"..but WE DO. I wish my former IFS Leaders were available to share how much they 'regret' compromising THIER flight attendant colleagues by following mgmt. position. WAKE UP! PLEASE!!
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Luvmydelta cont...:
Please choose your words wisely in future.
In fairness you can start your own YouTube channel and ban me from it. Which brings me to my next point.
I don't want to spend my day deleting your posts, so at any time if I continue to have these lengthy posts, I will ban you. I don't want to do that because you are a laugh riot, but I will do it.
Thanks in advance.
AFA4DAL 3 years ago
I've chosen my words wisely. I've also had ample support in the length of my posts. Secondly, I have a lot of friends (50% +1 and growing) I won't post again (thanks for the warning) and you may delete one; however I would like to point out that as you support AFA and claim to want a voice in a democratic process, does not appear to be your same views you support in attempting to limit a voice that disagrees with you.. A bit hypocritical, don't you think?
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Gee I didn't thing you'd come back with that (not). I want to clarify again, this is about courtesy. I want this to be an open forum. Your views are welcome, just be aware that long posts are not good netiquette. Thanks
AFA4DAL 3 years ago
luvmydelta: Firstly, without going into detail about the discrepancies in your tirade on simple economics and your obsession with mail carriers, an airline contract contains many more components than just pay.
Secondly, get some friends to talk this out with. You obviously have a lot to say. Which brings me to my next point.
I warned you earlier about being a cyber hog. Your are taking too much space with your rants, so I am limiting you to 5 posts per day. I will delete all others. cont..
AFA4DAL 3 years ago
Easy way to censor, AFA4DAL...typical
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
You have also proven my point above. Apparently you'd like a job that offers being home every night and have holidays off, like a mailman? Then, by all mean, become a mailman. I doubt Delta (or any airline) will fly their schedule as it is convent for you. You make it sound like you had no idea what being a fa entailed prior to your employment. Careful of the biting dogs though. And I'm not sure they'll allow you to take the P.O. jeep on vacation.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
No, I was stating that you can't compare different jobs on only the basis you choose. You need to look at the whole picture.
Are you saying that union f/a's don't get to nonrev?
I think I'll go to work now. You'll be unreplied to for a while. Seeya
notrational 3 years ago
ILuvmydelta: Hi Joan! Hi Sandy! Great communication! At lease "mail man" makes a decent wage...sorry you don't think so much of Delta flight attendants.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Hollybo,
As I stated above, if a mailman's salary is what you desire, become a mailman. What, in your opinion, constitutes a "decent wage"? A mailman with 10-20 yrs of service makes approx $22.22 per hour or $46,217.60 per year. (look it up) The average salary for a Delta fa with the same years of service is eerily similar.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Hey, I say that's not too bad. No free lunch here..If delta mgmt see's flight attendants as cocktail waitress's then maybe we've asked for it..Which by the way, is where we are heading.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
A mailman's salary is offset in the cost of a stamp. Stamps continue to rise in price, however, you'll still use the US postal service b/c there is no alternative. The same goes for airline expenses. Operating costs (including wages) are offset in the price of a ticket. Unfortunately, the consumer has choices and typically goes for the lowest fare.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
So, let's say for instance, you feel a "decent wage" is $100k per year. Your wages will ultimately end up in the cost of a ticket. When the ticket becomes too expensive, the consumer will purchase a seat elsewhere. At the end of the day, there is no more company to provide you with a job. This is happening in the auto industry right now. US auto makers can not compete and therefore are losing money. Soon, they'll be like the steel workers...no job at all.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Your concern about global outsourcing is going to happen, IF you continue to make unreasonable demands on the company, that they can no longer compete. No one could imagine 30 years ago that Toyota could overtake General Motors as the market leader with those crappy little compact cars. You will not protect your jobs with a union, you will fast track your company into insolvency and the global competition is just waiting to pounce.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Furthermore, if your rational rings true, then perhaps you believe that the teenager working for McDonalds deserves a "decent wage" for flipping a burger and serving you a happy meal. What should that be? $20.00 per hour? Of course your happy meal will cost about $13.00 each and on your salary, you'd opt for Burger King instead. This is basic economics.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
So before you go blaming management (which I am not) about your personal financial woes (or wishes), you should ask yourself if you have made wise personal choices, in the career that you've chosen, the car you drive, the spouse you married (and/or divorced), money you saved (and/or spent). Delta, like any company is not responsibly for your fiscal wellbeing. It is yours and yours alone.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Hey Hollytbo...Joan left many months ago...need to check out reality before you make silly statements...
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
hey girl..my mistake..Joanne..been doing the nursing thing and was not aware Joan Wilson(how I know her) had left? Hmmm...No silly statement here. I hope you have a plan "B".
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Comment removed
JHinMiami 3 years ago
The mere fact that you question whether I've passed 1st grade, brings into question your educational background (or lack there of). It would seem reasonable to assume that as an employee of Delta, who requires a minimum of a high school diploma, that I would have surpassed 1st grade. If you want to slam, be my guest, but at least try to stay on point. As I've pointed out, AFA and their supporters are purely emotional with no facts. Continue to loath in self pity with your defeat....enjoy.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Comment removed
JHinMiami 3 years ago
jHinMiani: very well said. thank you.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
What would AFA do to curb your concerns? Would you suggest to strand the paying passengers? And how exactly would AFA have control of a late arriving hotel shuttle? Furthermore, after your 15 hr shift and 8 hr layover, you may end up with 4,5,6 days off. More than you can say for the poor mailman.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
You see lubmydelts, a contract is in place to address those exact issues. It doesn't make the shuttle arrive on time, it gives you the ability to sleep and be rested when it does. Paying passengers shouldn't be the victims of AFA or a poorly scheduled airline that pushes the limits so far there is no room for unexpected issues. The mailman is home every night and has every holiday off.
AFA4DAL 3 years ago
AFA4DAL,
You've failed to address what is being pointed out; that "unexpected issues" are the extreme not the norm. Are you suggesting that AFA can control the weather and mechanical issues by virtue of having additional reserve fa's to cover the shift? At the overhead expense of what? That's like saying FEMA should have 200K of personal on standby in case of a hurricane Katrina at the expense of the taxpayer.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Deltalovie,
To point out the extreme rather than the norm is, frankly, misrepresenting the facts. Does a mailman have to work extra hard on tax day or holiday Christmas cards? There are extremes in every industry. We as fa's are subject from time to time with irregular operations based on weather or mechanical problems.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
I'm okay with weather and mechanical delays....they happen and no, AFA cannot prevent those. How fas are handled--that is something AFA can handle better than Delta. We can be replaced when we go illegal. You are likely to respond by saying 'we can do so now, we have work rules now.' we can go round and round on this. i shouldn't have to fight to enforce the rules. My mom just retired from American(she was fa). Granted, it's different union, but it's just about rules. continued..
deltalovie 3 years ago
they never argued with their company about whether they could 'just go ahead and take the flight' (how many times have you heard that or something similiar?) it's cut and dry.
deltalovie 3 years ago
iluvmydelta...I knew the wages and work rules when i signed on and they were great :) that was then, this is now. of course i would like to make as much as i used to, but i'm not unrealistic--post 9/11...you know the rest of that story. But work rules??? where did they go?? yes, they have gotten better recently, but the threat of the union was right there. We all know how bad summer gets...let's see if those work rules hold up. i'm lucky to fly intl, but commute.domestic trips get bad!
deltalovie 3 years ago
Yes, work rules changed when Delta was attempting a broad based effort to become more efficient. And I agree they went way too far, but if you do a comparison from a couple of years ago to now, you will find our work rules have done almost a 360. And we have added features we would never have been able to have before...jetway trades, out of base swaps, flying as much or little as we want...do a complete comparison.
As far as summer goes, if you know your work rules, you will have control.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
I think you mean a 180. I don't dispute that rules have changed. I would even say the threat of a union got a lot of those changes. Please remember that these changes are at the behest of mgmt. and could be revoked at any time by this group or the next. A contract could have the same things, just in legally binding fashion. Jetway trades came from SWA and their contract BTW.
notrational 3 years ago
No, I meant 360, where the starting point is our pre CBS work rules...
I am okay with the threat of a union. Just don't want those binding parts that keep me from getting improvements quickly when they are warranted. BTW...Delta implemented jetway trades...I don't really care where the idea came from...there was nothing forcing Delta to do it, so I am thinking you can't give credit to someone else's contract.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
Remember that a threat is just that and once the threat is gone, so is any power associated with it. These things can go away as quickly as they came. My comment about SWA was to make the point that these things are not exclusive to a contract-free airline.
The common usage of your phrase is 180 as in doing a turnaround.
notrational 3 years ago
You are probably right about the 180...but I am not common...:-)
The threat is always there...afa will always need the money...uh, membership...
I understand you feel more comfortable with the binding nature of a contract, and I can respect that, honestly. I view it more as a hinderance though...and the problem is, there is no way for you to have what you want, and me to have what I want within the same group. However, you have other avenues for your ideal...I don't...Delta is it
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
I am protecting my investment in Delta.
I can't start over at another airline, you know that.
I have seen too much to not want a contract. It's business and I understand that a contract is a necessary component of a business.
notrational 3 years ago
You are right to worry that improvements could take longer with a union. But I am willing to trade that for:
-having work rules in writing, that can be enforced without haggling :)
-prevent or minimize outsourcing (which seems to be happening in all industries)
-having a 'go to' person who can answer questions and knows the correct answer. don't know about you, but my supervisor can rarely be reached, responds slowly and often incorrectly.
those are just a few points....
deltalovie 3 years ago
you shouldn't have to fight for your work rules after a 15 hour day going into an 8 hour layover when the van hasn't showed up to pick you up yet....
deltalovie 3 years ago
Comment removed
JHinMiami 3 years ago
iluvmydelta...it's hard to believe you think we can really rely on OSHA and the FAA to protect us. Change doesn't happen thru those organizations until there have been thousands of complaints, a few years of research, and piles of paperwork.
About what our CEO makes...I do think he should be paid more, as should our pilots. I think the concern about excessive pay is not unique to Delta or the airlines. CEOs across the board are making too much, but that's a different topic.
deltalovie 3 years ago
deltalovie...If we can't depend on FAA and OSHA, why then does AFA spend so much time and money on Capital Hill lobbying and pushing in those arenas? If they are so useless, what is the point?
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
Because the FAA and OSHA work for us. They are government agencies that haven't done their job. AFA is a group of professionals that, through their collective strength, are trying to affect change for the better. That is one reason I want to join AFA. It is a group that furthers the profession in all arenas. BTW, your typo of Capital is quite amusing. Did you do that on purpose? I like it.
notrational 3 years ago
Sorry...it was an unintentional typo...but glad it made you smile...
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
It seems like you answered yourself here? The FAA and OSHA have to be pushed. If no one brings their attention to a problem or God forbid a plane crashes, not much will happen. I'm not saying they are incompetent or useless, but they definitely need a 'fire under their asses' so to speak, to get something done :)
I feel like AFA can light that fire!
deltalovie 3 years ago
I still don't like Sharon Wibben's eyes...if this is what the Delta "Team" spirit looks like I fear for my family. She's gone to the Dark Side...
MNBluestater 3 years ago
where did my comments go? i didn't say anything offensive....that is really weird, don't you think?
deltalovie 3 years ago
Your comments are still there. They are just pushed a long ways down by luvmydelta's ongoing need for medication.
AFA4DAL 3 years ago
Lastly, please be more specific on your right to change things. Please outline your rights as they were prepared for you upon you employment with Delta.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
luvmydelta: Thanks for your ongoing (and ongoing, and ongoing, and ongoing) comment thread. But seriously, couldn't you get your own channel if you have so much to say. Your are starting to get boring. Courtesy to the others please. Thanks.
AFA4DAL 3 years ago
Actually, AFA4DAL, I rather liked Iluvmydelta's eloquence...it may be boring to you because afa supporters generally go for the sound bites, rather than full details.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
How about I outline my rights as they were prepared for me upon my birth as an American?
notrational 3 years ago
notrational
I do not believe the constitution of the United States (Your rights at birth as an American) granted you any provisions to strong-arm your employer. Lets leave your 0-18 years of life out of this discussion as it has no consequence, along with your family, friends, neighbors and the guy picking through your trash. You claim "you have the right to change things". Simply provide clarification as it pertains to your "right" to do so.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
The Railway Labor Act gives me the right to organize a union. Simple enough for you, or do you need to post another 40 times to try to prove your point?
notrational 3 years ago
Your new AFA agenda claiming "risk exposure to poor air quality, blood-borne viruses including HIV and Hepatitis B, cosmic radiation and noise. As well as "expected to perform excessive lifting, pushing, pulling and carrying - including carry-on baggage and poorly designed food and beverage carts". Sound to me like a walk through the mall. What next on your agenda, banning bananas? "you could poke an eye out" Not quite a lob over the net. Put your arms down, no point for notrational.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
My agenda? I think exposure to the things you mention could be an issue with any group dealing with it. The lack of OJI support from most companies and insurance providers necessitates some kind of approach to injury in our occupation. Are you saying prevention isn't warranted? Delta disagrees with you there. TSA took care of bananas.
notrational 3 years ago
3rd. As usual, AFA is mistaken. In reference to the "Glowing discrepancy" you so modestly boasted; OSHA regulates everything from door height to jet way safety. (look it up) The FAA and NTSB also lend a hand. The FAA is exclusively responsible for the in-flight safety (as it should be)
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
First, I'm not management. I'm a NYC based fa. It's amazing how AFA will immediately conclude that management is always behind some big conspiracy.
2nd They're your webcast's and venues not mine. You can continue to go there and spew your venom, incite paranoia and think of new ways to create hysteria. Enjoy.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Re-read what you just said. It seems you have just admitted to a big conspiracy. And I'm the paranoid one. Sounds like you might be concerned that the Delta flight attendants are in support of a legal voice of their own.
notrational 3 years ago
Well luvmydelta has a lot of spare time today.
My first question is what level of management at Delta are you?
Secondly, most of your diatribe has been answered in our webcasts and other venues. Also many people here will answer you, so I won't rain on their parade.
One glowing discrepancy: OSHA doesn't protect us in the workplace. That's something AFA is trying to change. Nice lob over the net for me, thanks.
Lastly, I don't have to quit. I have the right to change things. I will use it.
notrational 3 years ago
correction to above...US Airways pilots, not UAL pilots outed ALPA...sorry
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Delta also has the best reserve in the business, not to mention crew runners ect.... Why would Delta continue these benefits with AFA in charge? AFA has yet to negotiate anything of this sort for their "voting brothers and sisters. Do your research people, before you make a mistake.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Part 7: Lastly, ask yourself why you need AFA. Then ask yourself why AFA need you. You should come to the quick conclusion that they need you more than you need them. Delta pays better than most AFA represented carriers (it may be all, not sure, but I will research that)
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Part 6: To all you "whiners" claiming to have 10-15-20 years in and still complaining. If you hate it that bad, quit. We actually don't want your cynical negativity on the airplane. Our paying passengers sure don't want you. Yep, those paying passengers who pay our salary. You've lost sight of your job a long time ago. I'm sure the only reason you're hanging around is for your non-rev benefits anyway.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
We all knew the wages and work rules when we entered this profession. Now you want to join forces to strong arm your company into things that may or may not be beneficial to them. What gives you the right? Nothing! Buy some stock, and have a say. If not, shut up!
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Part 5: We all have an "at will" employment at Delta. We have the luxury to leave any time we want. This includes, being dissatisfied with our wages or work rules. Is there anyone in our profession that naive to think our wages should be that of a pilot or CEO?
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Iluvmydelta: Your right!!! Delta flight attendant skill set: 1. no college 2. prior work experience: bar tender Rate of Pay?: $10/hr. You are so funny and foolish..but hey, Mgmt is loving you right now.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
FAA will regulate you work rules. OHSA will regulate you safety and the dept of labor will sat a minimum to your wage. Yes, I said "minimum". The maximum is what the market will bear.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Part 4: Ask your AFA union representative why the united flight attendants have begun to organize to rid themselves of AFA and several other airlines are talking about following suit. (just Google it). Why the United pilots have just kicked ALPA to the curb. Unions had a purpose in the "sweatshop" era. But now, they are no longer needed. The strong-arm Gestapo tactics are history.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
The auto industry (look how their doing. They don't have to look over their shoulder anymore to see Toyota coming). The failed education system (thank a union for tenure). The construction industry (yep, those guy's leaning on the "men at work" signs) Can't fire them though, they have union protection!!!
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
Part 3: The AFA like all unions are dead. Union membership has gone from almost ½ the population in the 50's to less than 8% (excluding Governmental). Some of the businesses still under union strong-arming;
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
40x or 400x, Danny what difference does it make? Don't we want a qualified person steering the ship (or flying the plane)? These day's folk's, CEO's don't come cheap. Go bargain shopping and see what you'll get.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
ILuvmydelta: Just wanted to say I agree with you..Richard Anderson is a great leader..I am grateful to have him onboard. Inflight is another ball game all together..with all do respect. I'm hear to tell you Delta would love to furlough every f/a with over 10 yrs and start over. Sandy Gordon is great..her, along with the rest of IFS leadership is JUST DOING THEIR JOB...you guys need to think long term and outside the box.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Part 2. Would you rather have a high school drop-out running the company you're working for? Have you taken into consideration that if you split Richard Anderson's salary among every Delta employee equally, it would constitute a few cents per hour (far less than those union dues we may be paying).
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
1. Why do you care what Richard Anderson makes? (or; as you say "lining his pockets") Do you feel you deserve part of his paycheck? Did you achieve the qualifications it takes to become a CEO of a fortune 500 company? I think not. This is typical union tactics trying to create some mass hysteria. If you want to make a CEO's salary, go do it! Become a CEO and grab the big bucks. Although you may need to be a bit more qualified than a flight attendant.
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
You pro-AFA union people are unbelievable!!! Get the facts and STOP getting fueled by pure emotions. Someone grabbed a few sound bites, stuck it on you tube and what do you get??? Hypocrisy! Was this video attempting to inform you of "fair play"? Who stuck it on here, to shove in your face, this false negativity? The "fair playing" union..hummm? Continued...
Iluvmydelta 3 years ago
It's hard to trust our leaders when history has taught us not to. We need the AFA.
lamiavoce123 3 years ago
I am voting FOR AFA...one big reason is because I am worried about outsourcing. That is a real threat. Some of the other reasons:
1. Delta has improved our work rules, pay, etc recently, but without the threat of the union, that will go by the wayside.
2. If we don't get a union this time, it will be a while before there is another vote, and we will suffer again. (work rules will disappear...as we've seen in the summers before).
continued...
deltalovie 3 years ago
continued..
3. I want rules in writing! I want to be able to refer to something when I have a question. I want to consistently get the SAME answer to a question. If you've ever been out on STD or maternity, you know how ridiculous/inconsistent the procedures are for being out. I have yet to be out when everything went as it should. I can't imagine what someone with a debilitating illness does.
I know everyone has their reasons, but I just thought I would mention why I decided for AFA.
deltalovie 3 years ago
Sharon Wibben has the sincerity of Black Mamba (African Snake).
Cloudhopper767 3 years ago
Have to agree on that, Cloudhopper...
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
Who wants date of hire?
if we vote a union in before the merger, then afa's policy is to merge by straight date of hire, right? then why not merge without the union, let delta bust their butt to get us something better than straight 'date of hire', then if we still want a union, there will be another vote anyways?? please clarify if i misunderstood??
deltalovie 3 years ago
Do you really trust Delta to give you a better deal? They have violated seniority at every turn: Song--the most junior flight attendants flying transcon turns, an unaccountable bidding system--CBS, first come/first sever open time. In reality, Delta flight attendants have more seniority than NW. We have nothing to fear with a straight date of hire integration. Moreover, a second vote is not a certainty. Delta is trying to thwart the NMB's 35% union shop rule by hiring thousands of new F/A's.
rodolfo969 3 years ago
rodolfo969,
Not quite true...in some sections of the seniority list, NW is very much senior to DL F/As. The most advantageous way to integrate is to look at each section and integrate so that no one loses relative seniority...e.g., if I am in the top 10% at Delta, I should be in the top 10% in the combined group. Straight date of hire will not do that for many DL F/As...especially those at the top of the seniority list. By the way, MGMT does not decide, DL and NWF F/As elected by peers will.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
deltalovie: Let me guess...You have less than 10 yrs with Delta? Just thinking about yourself..sorry, date of hire is the industry and what must be protected. I worked myself to death for 12 yrs and don't plan on watching that go "up in smoke" to someone junior who has not. And let me tell you ALL..Delta has violated your seniority since Sharon Wibben RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Hollytbo....nope, I have 12 years with the company. What do you mean just thinking of myself? If we had the exact same breakdown in our seniority groups, I wouldn't be worried. I doubt that is the case. I am thinking more along the lines of what Titansqueen is saying....our seniority groups are going to be different and that needs to be considered when merging our fas. I don't think what I am saying is that outrageous.
deltalovie 3 years ago
Deltalovie: I respect your position. However, Anderson is not attempting to bust up NW union for "nothing". Please hear me. My generation of f/a's worked hard, I mean HARD..(why we were hired) which is the right thing. I am now a nurse (thank goodness, with a skill and say in my life!) who still loves my job and what I know Delta "once" was..no matter what it has become. Like I must have a license as a nurse, F/A's MUST HAVE A CONTRACT. Just business. You must protect yourself.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Hollytbo, Congratulations on becoming a nurse...that is wonderful! I have immense respect for your work and know it to hard at times but often rewarding.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
I am confused...if you are now a nurse, why is this election so important to you? I don't think it is RA who is trying to "bust up NW union"...it's the Delta F/As who are in the election process. I see a lot of F/As sporting those Say NO to AFA bagtags...I would say there are a large number of F/As who are trying to keep a union from getting us in a concessionary trap. The right bargain means I give to get...many feel passionate about staying union free so that we aren't caught in that culture.
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
titansqueen: don't be confused..I'm smart, educated and informed. Reasons why Delta hired me in the first place. The election is important to me and to the future of Delta flight attendants. While you all are sporting NO AFA bagtags, mgmt is developing long range plans to recruit oversee's..Girl, this merger is more than seniority..its your job at stake. Employment laws are changing..pay attention before it' too late. Me? I'm thankful I'm not a victim & did something before it was too late.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
I remember when I was reviewing American Airlines and Delta as to which company I'd like to work for..I did not believe in unions and made my decision based on the quality of the company's character..hense picked Delta. I stood by this principle until one year ago..even after my mgmt stint and post Sharon Wibben. I'd been disappointed enough. Our government is founded on checks and balances ie: Congress, Excecutive Branch and the House of Rep..delta needs accountability!
Hollytbo 3 years ago
As a 17 yr Delta flight attendant I was a "stupid fool" believing that Delta would "do the right thing" by the employees. I was also an Inflight Supervisor and can tell you folks that the company could care less about YOU. WAKE UP! Now or never.
Hollytbo 3 years ago
Kind of scary...to think you were a supervisor and felt the comany didn't care...however, I say the company is us...all of us...if we are doing the right thing, does it not follow?
TITANSQUEEN 3 years ago
very scary that I was a part of things you know nothing about and took part in...finally doing the right thing by leaving and going back to flying. It is nice to believe the company is "all of us"...you'll be wondering about this when Delta begins recruiting oversee's in the next 5 yrs. We need a contract to protect YOUR job and MINE. Nice thing about me is I've been on the inside and KNOW WHAT GOES ON. It's sad. Have a blessed day!
Hollytbo 3 years ago
What amazes me, is how these highly intelligent business people can keep a straight face when they mislead FAs that having a legal contract somehow changes the "feel good" relationship with their company. They know the two are not mutually exclusive.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
I don't like the look in Sharon Wibben's eyes. She looks like one of the dark lords of the Sith
MNBluestater 3 years ago
TITANQUEEN: You ask "why in the world should we expect our leadership to be neutral?" How about because the LAW requires it? You have to ask exactly WHY your executives don't want you to have a legal contract - especially when they have one themselves.
dgcampbell007 3 years ago
Actually, I believe the law says the leadership can't interfere with or hinder the process...I don't believe having an opinion is interference. And if Richard tells you he doesn't believe you need a union, does that mean you will succumb to his word and not vote for one? Oh...I forgot,dgcampbell