Topics: WINNING ARGUMENTS NOW ADDED For The Creationism-Evolutionism Debate (See Subchapter 10.2.2.), The Issue On The Criminal Liability Of Foretelling The END OF THE WORLD, Other Debated Issues, Terrorism, War, Law, Politics, Religion, Philosophy, Science, Others.
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Why is it that Tharoor speaks of the necessity for caution being exercised by the danish press while publishing the cartoons, while he readily takes M.F Hussain's side on a similar issue where he directly condemns the hindu extremists..Why does one group have a right to be offended while the other doesnt? This is the fear Hitchens speaks of.Tharoor is scared to speak against the muslims too directly, but he can about the hindus because he is one himself.I am surprised this didn't get pounced on.
@blupunksp Tharoor makes the point that the Danish publisher which solicited and printed the incendiary cartoons knew full well the kind of consequences they would provoke. Hussain, on the other hand, had been using symbols like the kinds which incited the mobs in his paintings for decades without it causing any violence; he could not have anticipated the reaction it would cause. Also, there is a big difference between an exhibition being trashed and people being killed.
@blupunksp why the issue was absurd( the mf hussain paintings) is because the number of hindus offended was minuscule. and that hussain was hostage to a group of thugs trying to cash in on sensationalism. mulsims on the other hand are much more reactionary by nature so the cartoons were intended to be incendiary. the response to the paintings by hindus was a complete surprise and that is why it was regrettable...hussain had no such incendiary intention.
if you shout fire in a crowded theater and some one freaks out because they did NOT bother to look around quickly and make sure the warning was real IS NOT YOUR FAULT!
its the fault of the person that did not bother to check the facts. a quick look around will tell you that if you dodnt smell smoke or see fire that that person is probably out of there minds and can be ignored.
take resposability for your actions/reactions and dont blame others!
@zencat999 I think u dint get his point !! !! Tharoors point is that if your statements are incongruent with reality, society would dub u mad and ur right to freedoms essentially become null and void cuz u wouldnt be part of society anymore .. that is his general point !! and while making his argument he uses the "fire in a crowded theatre quote " to establish sanity as a pre requisite to liability and liabilty as a requirement for unregulated freedom
@tannumyjaan if someone yells fire in a theater YOU have a responsibility to look around, smell if there is smoke, see if there really is fire and if there is get out. if there is not you call the guy a loony and sit down and enjoy the rest of the show. its the responsibility of the listener to evaluate what is being said and then act accordingly.
the freedom to speak has to remain or we do not live in a free society.
@zencat999 ohh dont u wish u lived in a world where the insane walk scott free and yell out wutever they please, whenever they feel like purging a distressful buildup of gases!! It is a free world after all !! As long as its upon the rest of us to evaluate and judge the context in which it was said!
@zencat999 basically simply put, freedom comes with responsibility towards society and a fellow human. two sides of the same coin... dont care if its hitch or tharoor who argues the opposite
What Shashi Tharoor says is outrageous. So when offensive cartoons of the prophet Muhammad are drawn, people have to be sensitive to Muslim opinion. But when offensive paintings of Hindu deities are drawn, Hindu opinion doesn't matter? What hypocritical bullshit! It's because of double-standards and pseudo-secularism like this that the world is going down the toilet.
Religion poisons everything. Discussing free speech with religious nutcases is absurd. It's 2011 and it's appalling that we still have to deal with bronze age myths and arguments about the will of God and Jesus Christ on a horse. It's time we stop debating with these morons. We don't take grown ups believing in Santa Claus serious either. Hail Zeus
Of course not. But I'm quite sure there'd be a lot less violence and a lot more tolerance and peace. Far less terrorism for sure. Far more people who base their opinions on facts rather than bronze age myths and creationist nonsense. The world would be a lot better off without religion. Not perfect, but much better.
terrorism is 20th century phenomena, u cannot blame only religion for tht..
nd i dont thnk world will be better off without religion.. its ur assumption u cannot prove it.. but it is certain tht people cannot alienate themselves from violence. if not religion thn they'll come up with another ideology.
nd u r saying creationist nonsense, how u'll prove tht .. evolution is still immature not proven, lot of scientist disagree wth evolution theory.. we need to see both
Killing, destroying, torturing and so on in the name of religion is far from a 20th century phenomenon. The vast majority of all terrorism in one form or the other has it's roots in religious conflicts.
I happen to come from Denmark. One of the least religious places on the planet. We happen to also be the happiest people on the planet according to several worldwide surveys. We happen to be highly educated, highly secure and highly equal and have a very low crime rate...there you go
...and to claim that evolution and creationism should be given equal time is beyond laughable. Evolution is a proven fact without any shadow of a doubt. No there are not a lot of scientists who disagree on evolution. It's a small minority and of course it comes as no surprise that those who disagree ALL happen to be religious. They don't base their disagreement on scientific arguments but purely on religious wishful thinking often denying facts in the process. It's pure nonsense.
Wrong. Theory become fact when ALL evidence supports it. When there is absolutely no evidence against it. When the theory is able to predict what we will find in the future.
Evolution is a proven fact. Creationism is a proven lie. It's sad that grown ups and even some well educated people can claim that the earth is something like 6000 years old and humans co-existed with dinosaurs. It's a complete joke.
Biologist view evolution as a theory as well as fact, not a "proven fact". I believe creationism and evolution is an extreme view. We can hav both, if we are really after the truth.
@jespna Your communication with @hataimti should have ended as soon he/she invoked the "teach the controversy about evolution" argument. Continuing this futile dialog provides unwarranted, unjustified and unproductive airtime for these people to propagate their ignorant, self-serving agenda.
Since when did people decide they have the right to be UNoffended? Since when was it the duty of everyone to avoid offending everyone else? Since when was it considered right and good to resort to violence for taking offense?
If people are truly harmed, then it's fine for them to defend themselves. However, NO ONE has the right to claim that their feelings got hurt and resort to threats of violence. It's bullying behavior.
Secularism is based on principles that far predate any organized religions and that have changed drastically since their discovery. Secularism is what allowed humans to survive the increasingly inhospitable savanna and migrate to more auspicious habitats. In short, secularism is the reason our species still exists despite the efforts of religion (or even nature) to the contrary.
Secularism (/atheism) is the principle of not having principles - or being able to change principles ad hoc... Not surprisingly, one outcome of such an amoral world view is the presumption of 'neutrality' and a 'right' to challenge (rather deride and insult) morality itself... Challenge everything, believe in nothing. Every man for himself. A potent recipe for peace, harmony and civilised society - or is that mistrust, deceit, mental illness, violence and ultimately destruction...
The Hitchens of this world are essentially self-regarding elitists. All this "I reserve the right to insult others" self-deifying logic. They talk up democracy etc but really have no time for the common "masses".
As true hypocrites, they indignantly expound their 'principles' deemed unassailable while decrying the "fundamentalists"! They seek to impose their own (romano-hellenistic/ secular-humanist) world view on the rest of human society while accusing muslims of pursuing a domination agenda!
@umaralansari I'm sorry are you retarded? Everyone has the right to use words to criticise and insult others but NO ONE has the right to not be offended and NO ONE has the right to impose their ridiculous and dangerous religions or ideologies on others.
A secular society is the only way that everyone is free to pursue their own belief systems, lawfully, without fear. 'Secularists' don't threaten to murder people who disagree with them!
@wilsopup "No one has the right to not be offended"... Another completely empty mantra of modern militant secularism, which seeks to render all that is sacred meaningless so that it may replace it with nothingness... Let's face it, you and your ilk have nothing to offer but insults, reductionism, deconstructionism...
A society without morality, which holds nothing sacred - except the right to attack that which is sacred - is doomed to destroy itself...
@wilsopup The last 100 years, the most secular period in history, has also been the most desctructive... Whether due to 'free' market capitalism, a cancer model of "perpetual war for perpetual profit" resulting in millions of deaths due to competing for material resources; or (anarcho-)communism, based on Hitchens' friend Marx's puerile yet lethal inter-social warfare model, also resulting in millions of deaths... History loudly demonstrates that secularism cannot claim the higher moral ground.
You really show a lack of understanding about what it is you're talking about. First off, Hitchens and others don't reserve any right to insult others, they're trying to defend yours and everyone elses right to insult anyone you wish. A right thats been under constant attack from well meaning pc types and religious bigots, and if you can't see that then you're either being unbelievably dense or willfully dishonest. Secondly Democracy is not by itself a good thing at all.
(cont) if care isn't taken then it can easily become a tyranny of the majority which is no better than a tyrrany of one man and perhaps even worse. Thirdly, I would hope you could see the moral and pratical difference between a secular society which is a society that values free thought, expression, and rational tolerance, and a fundamentalist Islamic society which cuts off people limbs if they disobey religous laws abd opresses anything that runs counter to their beliefs.
@TheEparanor No, Aisha was six ( he was 54) and the experience caused her hair to fall out (alopecia). He had sex with her when she was nine (& still playing with dolls, this means she was pre pubescent) She was the daughter of his friend Abu Bakr who was not happy about Muhammed's demand, but felt intimidated. Muhammed was also having sex with other women and probably passed on some venereal disease to Aisha because she never bore children.
The Muslim terrorists don't follow The True Islam ... and they are bad people who will be punished from Allah .. lots of them are misguided under the claim of following the true religion but they don't!
The Holly Qur'an calls for peace not to attack the others ..and to be tolerant...
They use the word Jihad as war , it actually means struggle not war or fight.
Lets not call them Muslim ; lets call them Pakistani , or Egyptian , or Afghanistani .. why pick the religion?
People are quick to use verses from the Koran to show that Islam is about violence, but it only seems like "violence" when it is taken out of context.
No, we are only to defend our countries and resources from plotting terroristic greedy invaders with their medias backing them.
Quran preachs peace to the peaceful, and war to the agressors. It teaches to respond when you are attacked. But stops aggression and wants peace to make peace. and not to aggress anybody who is peaceful.
The early experience of Arabia taught the Muslims that it is more effective to be peaceful and at the same time stand on guard; that you can move in peace only when you are strong enough to guard your peace; that your voice of peace would echo better when you are able to resist pressure and eliminate oppression.
The Qur'an commands inviting people to the Way of Allah by wisdom and beautiful preaching. It is a fact that many disbelievers used to avoid hearing the Prophet lest they might be affected by his peaceful preaching. They even resisted by force the peaceful Call of Islam.
Tharoor seems to agree with Hitchens in principle but differing on the point of political correctness, which is unfortunate. This becomes pretty clear when he talks about MF Hussain. If Muslims can take offense at caricatures, why can't Hindus take offense at nude paintings of their goddesses? Either both should be condemned or both should be upheld. Hypocrite.
@jrwilson98: This perverted view regards selfishness, ruthlessness, conflict and murder as perfectly justified according to the survival of the fittest. It regards such feelings as compassion, love, affection and respect as obstacles that retard the process of evolution. Under Darwinist indoctrination, people are brought up to scorn altruism and compassionate love for others, and to become cruel, aggressive and self-interested.
@jrwilson98: Darwinists and materialists alike maintain that man, the universe, and all it contains are all the products of blind chance. They claim that because they regard human beings as a species of animal, then relationships between humans should be animalistic in nature.
If atheist man or boy kills innocent people does that mean all atheists are terrorists and inhuman??? More People Have Been Killed in the Name of Atheism & Secularism than Religion!!!
@xukun0 there is no atheist church no atheist dogma no atheist athority over other atheists nothing about not believing in something makes you want to kill others. on the other hand if you DO beleive in a god that tells you to go out and kill others thats different that is specifically informing your actions as opposed to atheism
Our beloved prophet (PBUH) overcame the ignorance of the people with the knowledge of Islam, and the folly and evil of the people with his kind and forgiving treatment. With his forgiveness, he freed people from the bondage of sin and crime, and also made them great friends of Islam. He was an exact image of the following verse of the Qur'an: "Good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with what is better. Then he, between whom and you there was hatred, will become as though he was a bosom friend.
@nessimanonga: MUSLIMS SHOULD REMEMBER MUHAMMAD'S ATTITUDE OF FORGIVENESS
Muhammad was all for forgiveness and no amount of crime or aggression against him was too great to be forgiven by him. He was the complete example of forgiveness and kindness, as mentioned in the following verse of the Qur'an: "Keep to forgiveness (O Muhammad), and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant." (Al-A`raf: 199)
@nessimanonga: MUHAMMAD'S (pbuh) ATTITUDE OF FORGIVENESS!!
When he went to Ta’if to preach the message of GOD, its people mistreated him, abused him and hit him with stones. He left the city humiliated and wounded. When he took shelter under a tree, the angel of Allah visited him and told him that Allah sent him to destroy the people of Ta’if because of their sin of maltreating their Prophet. Muhammad prayed to GOD to save the people of Ta'if, because what they did was out of their ignorance.
@xukun0 Okay, I can allow the religious rambling. As long as you note: Monkeys & Apes DO NOT evolve into humans (Humans are part of the Ape family). All evolution states it that all Simians share a common genetic ancestor which we all must have evolved from. THAT is all! There is nothing about Monkeys evolving into Humans that is just a remnant of an old religious smear campaign. You wrote on another video how Islam wants people to be enlightened, you might want to practice what you preach.
@xukun0 Okay, I can allow the religious rambling. As long as you note: Monkeys & Apes DO NOT evolve into humans (Humans are part of the Ape family). All evolution states it that all Simians share a common genetic ancestor which we all must have evolved from. THAT is all! There is nothing about Monkeys evolving into Humans that is just a remnant of an old religious smear campaign. You wrote on another video how Islam wants people to be enlightened, you might want to practice what you preach.
@xukun0 No we don't. That is a complete misrepresentation of science. Monkeys and Apes are completely different species. People who believe in evolution, believe that Apes of today and Humans share the same evolutionary ancestry. We do not believe that Apes: Chimpanzees, Gorillas, Orangutans will ever evolve into humans.
I don't believe it's possible to defeat Hitch in a debate. His points are ridiculously simple and sound. Plus, he's so fucking cool that he could just pimp his way through it anyway. I disagree with the guy on very very few points, and listening to him on those points can just about make me feel wrong. He absolutely kills Shashi here.
I don't believe it's possible to defeat Hitch in a debate. His points are ridiculously simple and sound. Plus, he's so fucking cool that he could just charm his way through it anyway. I disagree with the guy on very very few points, and listening to him on those points can just about make me feel wrong. He absolutely kills Shashi here.
"Any religion involves believing in anything!" LOLLL so true!
I find it absolutely amazing how the urban language is evolving these days.. HITCHSLAPPED! ;D
politically correctness drains the capacity of human expression.. ask yourself.. are you really afraid of expressing yourself? If yes, then evidently they have indeed achieved success in domesticating you as a sheep. If two friends say 'fuck you' to each other they know why they are saying that instead of what they are saying. simple enough.
HOW HYPOCRITICAL of Sashi to say that the muslim vandalism was justified because an editor should be aware of the impact of the publication ...then saying displaying Hindu Godesses naked and in obscene positions being a valid expression of art? this guy is hollow and wishes to appease.fail
@sushanalone He also is completely fine with David Irving's expressing his opinions, but does not accept criticism of Islam. Very interesting asymmetry.
@gthumb123 .... give evidence please and this so called research! taking human history into account. how many people died because of a press of atheism!
Ie show me where they killed in the name of atheism...
Dude, you can be an atheist and be an uncaring nihilist. Saying someone is an atheist doesn't say anything. You may indeed attribute millions of deaths to an atheist in the case of Joseph Stalin for instance. His beliefs were about worshiping the state and the leader therein. You'll find the same thing today in North Korea with the veneration of the "Dear Leader". In both cases you're talking about religion -- except that the gods in those cases are human.
The only way religious fundamentalist/literalist interpretation can survive is to indoctrinate children, propagating ignorance in the name of 'religious education', all the while exploiting the 'free speech card'. Certainly there must be some 'fair/lawful' way to draw a line between 'free speech' and 'intellectual abuse' insofar as education/facts go...creationism museum, african child militias, 'intelligent design' INSTEAD of evolutionary biology etc.
It's not only Austria that has this law...Germany too. Here you can get up to 5 years for Holocaust denial. I do not feel pity in any way for people who get punished for expressing their vile jew hate...but it is still wrong to persecute holocaust deniers, it is free speech and furthermore they become martyrs for their nazi scene
loved the super guilty part of austria! It's true the law is a disgrace to freedom of speech and the way we give special treatment to religion is a disgrace to the enlightenment as a hole! Still love my country beautiful scenery ;)
It was a joke. He is implying that to believe in *any* religion, you must be able to believe in anything. You missed his point. Did you notice that Tharoor laughed?
@rusH1023 He means you have to be the type of person who 'believes' in "belief" - more accurately, one who agrees that "belief" (as we generally understand the term) is a satisfactory support for knowledge
They miss the point that not only is one religious community not allowed to tell the wider secular society to obey their strictures..neither are we bound to respect the dictates of THE most conservative elements of any religion grouping.We can't ignore the liberal wings or those groups in favor of some nebulous idea of 'respect' or we condemn that less orthodox wing to silence.Muslims are not a monolith and nor are Episcopalians or Atheists for that matter. Rights are the persons not the groups.
I can't imagine threatening to behead someone (as the Islamic protestors did) even if they made a dirty cartoon about my mother! Sure, I'd threaten to break an arm or two, but to murder someone over a cartoon is really beyond my comprehension. Perhaps you need to believe in God in order to become truly inhuman.
@reinforcedpenisstem thats what ive been saying my whole life man!!! only religion can make normal ppl act like complete fucking pycho, denialist, morons.
He is scared of muslims and a muslim apologist. YOu will notice that he is defending muslim mobs and muslim artist Hussain, who painted Hindu goddesses in the nude....now that is not art but blasphemy.
@smodass No he's not he's a politician who actually has to contend with bodies on the ground. I am not a fan but his main interested is in the problems of governance and keeping people from getting killed. Thats how he's coming at it.
@CityzenJane We know where he is coming from, but it is precisely because of people like him that Muslims use terror tactics.. Unfortunately, Indian politicians are spineless and are giving away India inch by inch to Muslims.
New loud mouths (usually the pseudo liberals and their artsy buddies) are born when the old ones die.
"Art" has become a joke. There are a lot of talentless "artists" who create crap (usually insulting someone for attention), call it "art" and then bitch about freedom of art.....
Quite like how Tharoor takes this away from the usual intellectual royal rumble on FOX or CNN.
Whilst they share similar perspectives I think Tharoor tries to appeal to a more considered, pragmatic attitude vs. Hitchens fireworks and whiskey. Really good video
I agree. I think they generally agree. Neither is calling for real (state) censorship. Tharoor is simply calling for "self-censorship; for the media to change with the culture. Hitchens has a very particular view of a democratic society that he always supports. That society values freedom of speech above all; The culture should change, or at least be comfortable with, the media.
please listen to what tharoor says between 3:00 and 5:00. people like this are the bane of india's 'secularism'. earlier he opposed rushdie and the cartoon under the pretext that they disturbed social peace but when it came to paintings of hindu deity, he somehow takes sides with the artist who did that. this appeasement goes on in india perpetually. personally ( iam an agnostic), i dont care what they do with hussain or rushdie (from an indian context) but ther shuld be uniformty in treatment.
no, I think we should make sure all have free speech even if it means violently destroy institutions that try to stop it. Certainly people who publish within the western world deserve absolute protection from violence and the government should provide that protection
Believe me he is an ex-leftist. Also Marx was right about many things as many economists left and right will tell you. There's no need to through the baby out with the bath water.
Well what a reasoned argument! Thank you for giving me a reason to eliminate another idiot from consideration. I appreciate the time you've saved me. Have a lovely day.
Also - I love that you have "God" plastered all over you channel. If Jesus existed I am sure he would be very happy with your display here...very Christ like - or conspicuously mentally unstable...not sure which.
I am sure if someone said this to your sister or your mother your beat your own head to a pulp- bottom jaw thrusting to the great expanse of the sky.. and vow to fight.but sadly you are left to faffing on the interwebs incoherherently...hoping to leave the same stain that every other waste fo skin has left on the earth..that is a brown spot where you once shat. be someone.
Is this fear of muslims that bad in Europe? Here in the U.S I had a muslim coworker (stereotypical militant type who was actually very emotionally sensetive), and whenever he started ranting about Islamic supremecy or jews or (yes, really) black people, we would just fuck with him. One guy would wish him happy easter, or merry christmas, and ask him what he did for thanksgiving.
As a Brit, yes there is a massive fear of islamic terrorism in europe. We have bent over and taken this censorship for some years now, and very few people speak up about it out of fear of being killed. Europe has always been the main theatre of war the past few hundred years, and I'm very confident there will be another major war very soon. Not between countries per say, but between the jihads and people like me, secular and humanist.
I spent four months in Canada studying this year, and by far it is the most relaxed place I have ever been, somewhere I am considering moving in the future. However from talking to a lot of people when I was there, I found an underlying worry about Islamism. I just hope that the UK, France, Germany, U.S.A, Canada, Japan, Australia and any other free country can put aside any quarrels and defeat this menace before it gets too far.Europe is much in the balance now, and it isnt looking good.
Man if only that were state policy in the UK! I think the British government's misplaced religious sensitivity in these matters is shameful, I'm not in the mind to offend people pointlessly, but with the example of the Danish cartooons, I can't help feeling compelled to piss them off, purely for the reason that they dare take such blatant 'offense' at something which had every right to be in the public domain. Rock the boat people.
That is because they have to be. Look at that cunt sitting on the throne in England, her lazy ass was put there by god. All religion is a cancer and should be abolished everywhere.
this indian dude is so naive, frigging apologist for Islam...it is common for muslims to defile Hinduism because they hate it and want to see it eliminated...not because he's some "inspired thoughtful 'artiste'"...
Tharpoor would make nazis look like gentleman looking to refine the human race, the more I hear him the more I despise him...he's an embarrassment to Indians.
I applaud Hitchens smacking down the muslim painter and muslims in general...bravo
Exactly. Tharoor apologizes for Muslim fanatics who take offense at cartoons and then chastises Hindus for being offended for depictions of their gods.
He's a dhimmi and a traitor to India and liberal values. Sadly most people in democratic nations think like him, which is why Islam continues to exist and cause massive death, destruction and misery for humanity to this day.
Only when people with backbones (like Hitchens) who recognize Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult that needs to be eliminated, rise up and take power while we achieve real peace and freedom. Till then Islam will remain a cancer decaying and destroying free societies.
The most puzzling alliance is the leftist/Islamist grouping. It isn't fiction either, you see this with Labour/Islamists, Congress/Islamists, etc.
Now the next worry is that the UN is passing resolutions against 'defamation of religions'. If the Islamic nations did not have massive oil wealth this wouldn't be an issue, but that's another story...
Agreed, well I say fuck anyone that aligns with muslims, they deserve the same fate. They're traitors and should be treated accordingly.
The trouble is most people are stupid cowards who vote for left wing parties who are like them...they end up ruling us and instead of defeating terrorists/Islam, they try to appease them with horrendous consequences for us all.
There is no compromising with evil like Islam, it must be eliminated from this planet once and for all.
@kokobaboko "All religions are cancers, their hands are drenched in blood." Agreed. They may have been the 'moral guide' for uneducated people 2000 (or 100 000) years ago but their relevance has certainly been exceeded by modern 'ethics/morality'. The 'monopoly of morality' argument is ridiculous, though it's one of the last to fall away.
they should've put a less biased person to direct this debate heh.
Ppl need to hear how many ppl were killed as a result of this cartoon... it might open their eyes at why so much fear(that seeps into the hearts of other religious ppl like the UN spokeperson here)
Ya It's a share view by the other people in the room lady but only Hitch has the balls to say it with confidence. Most everybody else is scared shitless of Muslim reprisals.
What this debate is really about is the following question: What's to be done with the human population that has an IQ of less than 120?
ion010101 2 months ago in playlist Hitchens cartoons
Tharoor is a really smart guy, Hitchens is amazing, great debate.
panniize 2 months ago
tharoor is a hypocrite ....anglicized punk
srprasad 2 months ago
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Topics: WINNING ARGUMENTS NOW ADDED For The Creationism-Evolutionism Debate (See Subchapter 10.2.2.), The Issue On The Criminal Liability Of Foretelling The END OF THE WORLD, Other Debated Issues, Terrorism, War, Law, Politics, Religion, Philosophy, Science, Others.
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TheServiceWeb 6 months ago
Why is it that Tharoor speaks of the necessity for caution being exercised by the danish press while publishing the cartoons, while he readily takes M.F Hussain's side on a similar issue where he directly condemns the hindu extremists..Why does one group have a right to be offended while the other doesnt? This is the fear Hitchens speaks of.Tharoor is scared to speak against the muslims too directly, but he can about the hindus because he is one himself.I am surprised this didn't get pounced on.
blupunksp 6 months ago 11
@blupunksp Tharoor makes the point that the Danish publisher which solicited and printed the incendiary cartoons knew full well the kind of consequences they would provoke. Hussain, on the other hand, had been using symbols like the kinds which incited the mobs in his paintings for decades without it causing any violence; he could not have anticipated the reaction it would cause. Also, there is a big difference between an exhibition being trashed and people being killed.
Aaronthegreatest 2 months ago 4
@blupunksp no its also that tharoor is part of the congress party who are muslim appeasers. so tharoor had to speak with skill in a tight place...
TheMaskwa 6 days ago
@blupunksp why the issue was absurd( the mf hussain paintings) is because the number of hindus offended was minuscule. and that hussain was hostage to a group of thugs trying to cash in on sensationalism. mulsims on the other hand are much more reactionary by nature so the cartoons were intended to be incendiary. the response to the paintings by hindus was a complete surprise and that is why it was regrettable...hussain had no such incendiary intention.
TheMaskwa 6 days ago
if you shout fire in a crowded theater and some one freaks out because they did NOT bother to look around quickly and make sure the warning was real IS NOT YOUR FAULT!
its the fault of the person that did not bother to check the facts. a quick look around will tell you that if you dodnt smell smoke or see fire that that person is probably out of there minds and can be ignored.
take resposability for your actions/reactions and dont blame others!
so...sorry Tharoor, you are wrong , wrong, wrong!
zencat999 6 months ago
@zencat999 I think u dint get his point !! !! Tharoors point is that if your statements are incongruent with reality, society would dub u mad and ur right to freedoms essentially become null and void cuz u wouldnt be part of society anymore .. that is his general point !! and while making his argument he uses the "fire in a crowded theatre quote " to establish sanity as a pre requisite to liability and liabilty as a requirement for unregulated freedom
tannumyjaan 1 month ago
@tannumyjaan if someone yells fire in a theater YOU have a responsibility to look around, smell if there is smoke, see if there really is fire and if there is get out. if there is not you call the guy a loony and sit down and enjoy the rest of the show. its the responsibility of the listener to evaluate what is being said and then act accordingly.
the freedom to speak has to remain or we do not live in a free society.
zencat999 1 month ago
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zencat999 1 month ago
@zencat999 ohh dont u wish u lived in a world where the insane walk scott free and yell out wutever they please, whenever they feel like purging a distressful buildup of gases!! It is a free world after all !! As long as its upon the rest of us to evaluate and judge the context in which it was said!
tannumyjaan 1 month ago
@zencat999 basically simply put, freedom comes with responsibility towards society and a fellow human. two sides of the same coin... dont care if its hitch or tharoor who argues the opposite
tannumyjaan 1 month ago
Htey both talk beautifully. Of course, hitch smacks down as always, but the other guy sounds very nice.
AxeHomeless 7 months ago
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What Shashi Tharoor says is outrageous. So when offensive cartoons of the prophet Muhammad are drawn, people have to be sensitive to Muslim opinion. But when offensive paintings of Hindu deities are drawn, Hindu opinion doesn't matter? What hypocritical bullshit! It's because of double-standards and pseudo-secularism like this that the world is going down the toilet.
SJJGautham08 7 months ago
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SJJGautham08 7 months ago
anyone that thinks our forced servitude and obedience to government, is freedom, is a dellusional asswipe
longfootbuddy 7 months ago
Any religion involves being able to believe in anything.
nigelsenchez 8 months ago
Religion poisons everything. Discussing free speech with religious nutcases is absurd. It's 2011 and it's appalling that we still have to deal with bronze age myths and arguments about the will of God and Jesus Christ on a horse. It's time we stop debating with these morons. We don't take grown ups believing in Santa Claus serious either. Hail Zeus
jespna 9 months ago
@jespna
its sum of human being who poison every thng... do u thnk if there is no religion thn there'll be no voilence
hataimti 8 months ago
@hataimti
Of course not. But I'm quite sure there'd be a lot less violence and a lot more tolerance and peace. Far less terrorism for sure. Far more people who base their opinions on facts rather than bronze age myths and creationist nonsense. The world would be a lot better off without religion. Not perfect, but much better.
jespna 8 months ago
@jespna
terrorism is 20th century phenomena, u cannot blame only religion for tht..
nd i dont thnk world will be better off without religion.. its ur assumption u cannot prove it.. but it is certain tht people cannot alienate themselves from violence. if not religion thn they'll come up with another ideology.
nd u r saying creationist nonsense, how u'll prove tht .. evolution is still immature not proven, lot of scientist disagree wth evolution theory.. we need to see both
hataimti 8 months ago
@hataimti
Killing, destroying, torturing and so on in the name of religion is far from a 20th century phenomenon. The vast majority of all terrorism in one form or the other has it's roots in religious conflicts.
I happen to come from Denmark. One of the least religious places on the planet. We happen to also be the happiest people on the planet according to several worldwide surveys. We happen to be highly educated, highly secure and highly equal and have a very low crime rate...there you go
jespna 8 months ago
@jespna
i dont know whch histroy book u hav read.. how u hv so much unbalanced view about religion...
"there you go" i'm not here for win or loss.. i believe in knowing nd respectng each other..
i'll ask u one question . If u are a really deep thinker, u'll find the answer for ur second paragraph..
"why do u thnk rate crime increases in sum region whn natural disastor hit tht region?"
hataimti 8 months ago
@hataimti
...and to claim that evolution and creationism should be given equal time is beyond laughable. Evolution is a proven fact without any shadow of a doubt. No there are not a lot of scientists who disagree on evolution. It's a small minority and of course it comes as no surprise that those who disagree ALL happen to be religious. They don't base their disagreement on scientific arguments but purely on religious wishful thinking often denying facts in the process. It's pure nonsense.
jespna 8 months ago
@jespna theory become fact whn it is proven experimentaly.. i dont know which scientist provent it experimentally
hataimti 8 months ago
@hataimti
Wrong. Theory become fact when ALL evidence supports it. When there is absolutely no evidence against it. When the theory is able to predict what we will find in the future.
Evolution is a proven fact. Creationism is a proven lie. It's sad that grown ups and even some well educated people can claim that the earth is something like 6000 years old and humans co-existed with dinosaurs. It's a complete joke.
jespna 8 months ago
@jespna
Thank you for correction....
Biologist view evolution as a theory as well as fact, not a "proven fact". I believe creationism and evolution is an extreme view. We can hav both, if we are really after the truth.
hataimti 8 months ago
@jespna Your communication with @hataimti should have ended as soon he/she invoked the "teach the controversy about evolution" argument. Continuing this futile dialog provides unwarranted, unjustified and unproductive airtime for these people to propagate their ignorant, self-serving agenda.
jonwalksred 8 months ago
Since when did people decide they have the right to be UNoffended? Since when was it the duty of everyone to avoid offending everyone else? Since when was it considered right and good to resort to violence for taking offense?
If people are truly harmed, then it's fine for them to defend themselves. However, NO ONE has the right to claim that their feelings got hurt and resort to threats of violence. It's bullying behavior.
ciaochowbella 9 months ago
This lady needs to shut the fuck up....
IrishJeff68 11 months ago
We have a right to be offended as wel as a right to reply such offence
MrPootisman 11 months ago
organised religion, capitalism, communism... all great ideas, until you add the one ingredient guaranteed to make them unworkable...people.
solheights 11 months ago
And they're not trying to "impose" it on anyone, they're simply arguing for their beliefs as I'm sure you do too.
Pervyable 1 year ago
Secularism is based on principles that far predate any organized religions and that have changed drastically since their discovery. Secularism is what allowed humans to survive the increasingly inhospitable savanna and migrate to more auspicious habitats. In short, secularism is the reason our species still exists despite the efforts of religion (or even nature) to the contrary.
alabamamanable 1 year ago
Secularism (/atheism) is the principle of not having principles - or being able to change principles ad hoc... Not surprisingly, one outcome of such an amoral world view is the presumption of 'neutrality' and a 'right' to challenge (rather deride and insult) morality itself... Challenge everything, believe in nothing. Every man for himself. A potent recipe for peace, harmony and civilised society - or is that mistrust, deceit, mental illness, violence and ultimately destruction...
umaralansari 1 year ago
@umaralansari Your criticism of secularism is highly offensive to me, by your own standards, respect my sensitivity and stop dong it.
soham087 10 months ago
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umaralansari 1 year ago
The Hitchens of this world are essentially self-regarding elitists. All this "I reserve the right to insult others" self-deifying logic. They talk up democracy etc but really have no time for the common "masses".
As true hypocrites, they indignantly expound their 'principles' deemed unassailable while decrying the "fundamentalists"! They seek to impose their own (romano-hellenistic/ secular-humanist) world view on the rest of human society while accusing muslims of pursuing a domination agenda!
umaralansari 1 year ago
@umaralansari I'm sorry are you retarded? Everyone has the right to use words to criticise and insult others but NO ONE has the right to not be offended and NO ONE has the right to impose their ridiculous and dangerous religions or ideologies on others.
A secular society is the only way that everyone is free to pursue their own belief systems, lawfully, without fear. 'Secularists' don't threaten to murder people who disagree with them!
wilsopup 1 year ago
@wilsopup "No one has the right to not be offended"... Another completely empty mantra of modern militant secularism, which seeks to render all that is sacred meaningless so that it may replace it with nothingness... Let's face it, you and your ilk have nothing to offer but insults, reductionism, deconstructionism...
A society without morality, which holds nothing sacred - except the right to attack that which is sacred - is doomed to destroy itself...
umaralansari 1 year ago
@wilsopup The last 100 years, the most secular period in history, has also been the most desctructive... Whether due to 'free' market capitalism, a cancer model of "perpetual war for perpetual profit" resulting in millions of deaths due to competing for material resources; or (anarcho-)communism, based on Hitchens' friend Marx's puerile yet lethal inter-social warfare model, also resulting in millions of deaths... History loudly demonstrates that secularism cannot claim the higher moral ground.
umaralansari 1 year ago
@umaralansari
You really show a lack of understanding about what it is you're talking about. First off, Hitchens and others don't reserve any right to insult others, they're trying to defend yours and everyone elses right to insult anyone you wish. A right thats been under constant attack from well meaning pc types and religious bigots, and if you can't see that then you're either being unbelievably dense or willfully dishonest. Secondly Democracy is not by itself a good thing at all.
Pervyable 1 year ago 2
@umaralansari
(cont) if care isn't taken then it can easily become a tyranny of the majority which is no better than a tyrrany of one man and perhaps even worse. Thirdly, I would hope you could see the moral and pratical difference between a secular society which is a society that values free thought, expression, and rational tolerance, and a fundamentalist Islamic society which cuts off people limbs if they disobey religous laws abd opresses anything that runs counter to their beliefs.
Pervyable 1 year ago 2
i heard that muhammed married a 9year old girl is that true?
TheEparanor 1 year ago
@TheEparanor No, Aisha was six ( he was 54) and the experience caused her hair to fall out (alopecia). He had sex with her when she was nine (& still playing with dolls, this means she was pre pubescent) She was the daughter of his friend Abu Bakr who was not happy about Muhammed's demand, but felt intimidated. Muhammed was also having sex with other women and probably passed on some venereal disease to Aisha because she never bore children.
tranceman22 9 months ago
"no, you keep it to yourself. do not dare address me, do not dare talk to me as if you're warning me when I comment on this." Love ya Hitch.
ummnowwhat 1 year ago
@griz88: It's like me saying all atheists are racists!!! Keep believing the madia fool!!!
xukun0 1 year ago
The Muslim terrorists don't follow The True Islam ... and they are bad people who will be punished from Allah .. lots of them are misguided under the claim of following the true religion but they don't!
The Holly Qur'an calls for peace not to attack the others ..and to be tolerant...
They use the word Jihad as war , it actually means struggle not war or fight.
Lets not call them Muslim ; lets call them Pakistani , or Egyptian , or Afghanistani .. why pick the religion?
xukun0 1 year ago
People are quick to use verses from the Koran to show that Islam is about violence, but it only seems like "violence" when it is taken out of context.
No, we are only to defend our countries and resources from plotting terroristic greedy invaders with their medias backing them.
Quran preachs peace to the peaceful, and war to the agressors. It teaches to respond when you are attacked. But stops aggression and wants peace to make peace. and not to aggress anybody who is peaceful.
xukun0 1 year ago
The early experience of Arabia taught the Muslims that it is more effective to be peaceful and at the same time stand on guard; that you can move in peace only when you are strong enough to guard your peace; that your voice of peace would echo better when you are able to resist pressure and eliminate oppression.
xukun0 1 year ago
The Qur'an commands inviting people to the Way of Allah by wisdom and beautiful preaching. It is a fact that many disbelievers used to avoid hearing the Prophet lest they might be affected by his peaceful preaching. They even resisted by force the peaceful Call of Islam.
xukun0 1 year ago
Tharoor seems to agree with Hitchens in principle but differing on the point of political correctness, which is unfortunate. This becomes pretty clear when he talks about MF Hussain. If Muslims can take offense at caricatures, why can't Hindus take offense at nude paintings of their goddesses? Either both should be condemned or both should be upheld. Hypocrite.
soham087 1 year ago
@jrwilson98: This perverted view regards selfishness, ruthlessness, conflict and murder as perfectly justified according to the survival of the fittest. It regards such feelings as compassion, love, affection and respect as obstacles that retard the process of evolution. Under Darwinist indoctrination, people are brought up to scorn altruism and compassionate love for others, and to become cruel, aggressive and self-interested.
xukun0 1 year ago
@jrwilson98: Darwinists and materialists alike maintain that man, the universe, and all it contains are all the products of blind chance. They claim that because they regard human beings as a species of animal, then relationships between humans should be animalistic in nature.
xukun0 1 year ago
If atheist man or boy kills innocent people does that mean all atheists are terrorists and inhuman??? More People Have Been Killed in the Name of Atheism & Secularism than Religion!!!
xukun0 1 year ago
@xukun0 there is no atheist church no atheist dogma no atheist athority over other atheists nothing about not believing in something makes you want to kill others. on the other hand if you DO beleive in a god that tells you to go out and kill others thats different that is specifically informing your actions as opposed to atheism
griz88 1 year ago
Our beloved prophet (PBUH) overcame the ignorance of the people with the knowledge of Islam, and the folly and evil of the people with his kind and forgiving treatment. With his forgiveness, he freed people from the bondage of sin and crime, and also made them great friends of Islam. He was an exact image of the following verse of the Qur'an: "Good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with what is better. Then he, between whom and you there was hatred, will become as though he was a bosom friend.
xukun0 1 year ago
@nessimanonga: MUSLIMS SHOULD REMEMBER MUHAMMAD'S ATTITUDE OF FORGIVENESS
Muhammad was all for forgiveness and no amount of crime or aggression against him was too great to be forgiven by him. He was the complete example of forgiveness and kindness, as mentioned in the following verse of the Qur'an: "Keep to forgiveness (O Muhammad), and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant." (Al-A`raf: 199)
xukun0 1 year ago
@nessimanonga: MUHAMMAD'S (pbuh) ATTITUDE OF FORGIVENESS!!
When he went to Ta’if to preach the message of GOD, its people mistreated him, abused him and hit him with stones. He left the city humiliated and wounded. When he took shelter under a tree, the angel of Allah visited him and told him that Allah sent him to destroy the people of Ta’if because of their sin of maltreating their Prophet. Muhammad prayed to GOD to save the people of Ta'if, because what they did was out of their ignorance.
xukun0 1 year ago
@lmihay: Why don't you read qur'an and authentic hadith? You are such a ignorant person! Truth stands out clear from error!!!
xukun0 1 year ago
"Know they not that whoever opposes and shows hostility to Allaah and His
Messenger, certainly for him will be the fire of Hell to abide therein? That
is extreme disgrace". (9:63)
xukun0 1 year ago
Atheists believe in monkeys and apes evolving to humans!!!
xukun0 1 year ago
@xukun0 No they don't. You have no idea what you are talking about. Read a book.
lmihay 1 year ago
@xukun0 Okay, I can allow the religious rambling. As long as you note: Monkeys & Apes DO NOT evolve into humans (Humans are part of the Ape family). All evolution states it that all Simians share a common genetic ancestor which we all must have evolved from. THAT is all! There is nothing about Monkeys evolving into Humans that is just a remnant of an old religious smear campaign. You wrote on another video how Islam wants people to be enlightened, you might want to practice what you preach.
nessimanonga 1 year ago
@xukun0 Okay, I can allow the religious rambling. As long as you note: Monkeys & Apes DO NOT evolve into humans (Humans are part of the Ape family). All evolution states it that all Simians share a common genetic ancestor which we all must have evolved from. THAT is all! There is nothing about Monkeys evolving into Humans that is just a remnant of an old religious smear campaign. You wrote on another video how Islam wants people to be enlightened, you might want to practice what you preach.
nessimanonga 1 year ago
@xukun0 No we don't. That is a complete misrepresentation of science. Monkeys and Apes are completely different species. People who believe in evolution, believe that Apes of today and Humans share the same evolutionary ancestry. We do not believe that Apes: Chimpanzees, Gorillas, Orangutans will ever evolve into humans.
jrwilson98 1 year ago
ISLAM: THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION (WAY OF LIFE) IN THE WORLD......DISCOVER WHY!!!
xukun0 1 year ago
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I don't believe it's possible to defeat Hitch in a debate. His points are ridiculously simple and sound. Plus, he's so fucking cool that he could just pimp his way through it anyway. I disagree with the guy on very very few points, and listening to him on those points can just about make me feel wrong. He absolutely kills Shashi here.
Nishap739 1 year ago
I don't believe it's possible to defeat Hitch in a debate. His points are ridiculously simple and sound. Plus, he's so fucking cool that he could just charm his way through it anyway. I disagree with the guy on very very few points, and listening to him on those points can just about make me feel wrong. He absolutely kills Shashi here.
Nishap739 1 year ago
"Any religion involves believing in anything!" LOLLL so true!
I find it absolutely amazing how the urban language is evolving these days.. HITCHSLAPPED! ;D
politically correctness drains the capacity of human expression.. ask yourself.. are you really afraid of expressing yourself? If yes, then evidently they have indeed achieved success in domesticating you as a sheep. If two friends say 'fuck you' to each other they know why they are saying that instead of what they are saying. simple enough.
keishafabio 1 year ago
HOW HYPOCRITICAL of Sashi to say that the muslim vandalism was justified because an editor should be aware of the impact of the publication ...then saying displaying Hindu Godesses naked and in obscene positions being a valid expression of art? this guy is hollow and wishes to appease.fail
sushanalone 1 year ago
@sushanalone He also is completely fine with David Irving's expressing his opinions, but does not accept criticism of Islam. Very interesting asymmetry.
larilin 1 year ago
atheism is drenched in more blood do research!!!!
gthumb123 1 year ago
@gthumb123 .... give evidence please and this so called research! taking human history into account. how many people died because of a press of atheism!
Ie show me where they killed in the name of atheism...
TheJimbojones1980 1 year ago 2
Dude, you can be an atheist and be an uncaring nihilist. Saying someone is an atheist doesn't say anything. You may indeed attribute millions of deaths to an atheist in the case of Joseph Stalin for instance. His beliefs were about worshiping the state and the leader therein. You'll find the same thing today in North Korea with the veneration of the "Dear Leader". In both cases you're talking about religion -- except that the gods in those cases are human.
ficklemcpickle 1 year ago
The only way religious fundamentalist/literalist interpretation can survive is to indoctrinate children, propagating ignorance in the name of 'religious education', all the while exploiting the 'free speech card'. Certainly there must be some 'fair/lawful' way to draw a line between 'free speech' and 'intellectual abuse' insofar as education/facts go...creationism museum, african child militias, 'intelligent design' INSTEAD of evolutionary biology etc.
MindfulFuture 1 year ago
You can believe what you want = attractive religion? That is funny. It really is.
progress200 1 year ago
@ 3:19 "Oh, he's India'a Picasso!"
Not even close, M. F. Hussain is not in the same league as Picasso.
R.B. Kitaj, perhaps, but not Picasso.
polymath7 1 year ago
It's not only Austria that has this law...Germany too. Here you can get up to 5 years for Holocaust denial. I do not feel pity in any way for people who get punished for expressing their vile jew hate...but it is still wrong to persecute holocaust deniers, it is free speech and furthermore they become martyrs for their nazi scene
moLeOnPoT 1 year ago
loved the super guilty part of austria! It's true the law is a disgrace to freedom of speech and the way we give special treatment to religion is a disgrace to the enlightenment as a hole! Still love my country beautiful scenery ;)
annata12 1 year ago
Wonderful debate, particularly important in light of the South Park fiasco.
BlankVellum 1 year ago
i'm so sick of english people speaking in cryptic analogies, just get to the point, like churchill would've done
kurt9876543210 1 year ago
@kurt9876543210 going to school helps. i know schooling is an unknown concept in america but still
GBJ83 1 year ago
@kurt9876543210 Cryptic? Where is Hitchens anything less than crystal clear?
polymath7 1 year ago
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hitchens is wrong when he answered shashi that every religion allows ppl to believe in anything..he started gettin more naive now
gpardhu 2 years ago
It was a joke. He is implying that to believe in *any* religion, you must be able to believe in anything. You missed his point. Did you notice that Tharoor laughed?
rusH1023 2 years ago 14
@rusH1023 He means you have to be the type of person who 'believes' in "belief" - more accurately, one who agrees that "belief" (as we generally understand the term) is a satisfactory support for knowledge
2001Horatio 6 months ago
@2001Horatio
I think we're making two different points. I could be wrong; it's been a year since I've watched the video.
rusH1023 6 months ago
@rusH1023 Possibly
2001Horatio 6 months ago
They miss the point that not only is one religious community not allowed to tell the wider secular society to obey their strictures..neither are we bound to respect the dictates of THE most conservative elements of any religion grouping.We can't ignore the liberal wings or those groups in favor of some nebulous idea of 'respect' or we condemn that less orthodox wing to silence.Muslims are not a monolith and nor are Episcopalians or Atheists for that matter. Rights are the persons not the groups.
CityzenJane 2 years ago 2
Hitchens makes me want to smoke.
berlinbrown03 2 years ago 10
@berlinbrown03 isn't that ridiclous...me too and I hate cigarettes...
CityzenJane 2 years ago
Wow, were halfway through this video series and Hitchens has already won.
ianhoppe 2 years ago
When Hitchens walked on stage, he already won.
berlinbrown03 2 years ago
I can't imagine threatening to behead someone (as the Islamic protestors did) even if they made a dirty cartoon about my mother! Sure, I'd threaten to break an arm or two, but to murder someone over a cartoon is really beyond my comprehension. Perhaps you need to believe in God in order to become truly inhuman.
reinforcedpenisstem 2 years ago 31
@reinforcedpenisstem thats what ive been saying my whole life man!!! only religion can make normal ppl act like complete fucking pycho, denialist, morons.
keggerous 2 years ago 2
Good keggerous. Keep saying it. It illustrates the perversion and disease-like property of these ignorant, thoroughly man-made and stone-age dogma.
reinforcedpenisstem 2 years ago 2
Tharoor is inconsistent. Criticising artists on the one hand, and on the other protecting them! Wonder who pays his wages?
markwessex 2 years ago 5
well the un does..and he ought to be inconsistent...hes a politician :P
sumitron2k 2 years ago
He is scared of muslims and a muslim apologist. YOu will notice that he is defending muslim mobs and muslim artist Hussain, who painted Hindu goddesses in the nude....now that is not art but blasphemy.
smodass 2 years ago
@smodass No he's not he's a politician who actually has to contend with bodies on the ground. I am not a fan but his main interested is in the problems of governance and keeping people from getting killed. Thats how he's coming at it.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
@CityzenJane We know where he is coming from, but it is precisely because of people like him that Muslims use terror tactics.. Unfortunately, Indian politicians are spineless and are giving away India inch by inch to Muslims.
smodass 2 years ago
@smodass also - art and blasphemy go together like peanut butter and jelly - artists are not responsible to others dieties at all.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
@CityzenJane "Art" is not a license to insult.
smodass 2 years ago
There is no authority qualified to issue that license.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
Yes there is.... the license is given by those who shout the loudest.
smodass 2 years ago
um. no. art lives on. people die. in the end. art wins.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
New loud mouths (usually the pseudo liberals and their artsy buddies) are born when the old ones die.
"Art" has become a joke. There are a lot of talentless "artists" who create crap (usually insulting someone for attention), call it "art" and then bitch about freedom of art.....
IMO fart wins.
smodass 2 years ago
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deanwarsore 2 years ago
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deanwarsore 2 years ago
Quite like how Tharoor takes this away from the usual intellectual royal rumble on FOX or CNN.
Whilst they share similar perspectives I think Tharoor tries to appeal to a more considered, pragmatic attitude vs. Hitchens fireworks and whiskey. Really good video
gavindaysaccount 2 years ago 5
Haha, "fireworks and whiskey".
Well Put sir!
I agree. I think they generally agree. Neither is calling for real (state) censorship. Tharoor is simply calling for "self-censorship; for the media to change with the culture. Hitchens has a very particular view of a democratic society that he always supports. That society values freedom of speech above all; The culture should change, or at least be comfortable with, the media.
Good video.
ianhoppe 2 years ago
This isn't really a debate, is it? But rather a pretty educational discussion. A nice change though I have to say.
Domzdream 2 years ago 6
please listen to what tharoor says between 3:00 and 5:00. people like this are the bane of india's 'secularism'. earlier he opposed rushdie and the cartoon under the pretext that they disturbed social peace but when it came to paintings of hindu deity, he somehow takes sides with the artist who did that. this appeasement goes on in india perpetually. personally ( iam an agnostic), i dont care what they do with hussain or rushdie (from an indian context) but ther shuld be uniformty in treatment.
madhavasathishkumar 2 years ago
no, I think we should make sure all have free speech even if it means violently destroy institutions that try to stop it. Certainly people who publish within the western world deserve absolute protection from violence and the government should provide that protection
aweiss 2 years ago
Marx still fills in the mind of this purported ex-leftist
NathanBForrest1776 2 years ago
left, right?
Hitchens?
You think he still harbors communistic ideas.
VarialProductions 2 years ago
Let me guess, you're a religious zealot and bound by your childhood and cultural brainwashing.
kokobaboko 2 years ago
Not a zealot ... in fact, if you visited my channel you'd know how must i oppose the most dangerous religion of all - islam.
NathanBForrest1776 2 years ago 2
@NathanBForrest1776 because you are a christian zealot or because of your a-theistic stance towards only Islam?
MindfulFuture 1 year ago
Believe me he is an ex-leftist. Also Marx was right about many things as many economists left and right will tell you. There's no need to through the baby out with the bath water.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
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@CityzenJane fuck you bitch who fuck are you to tell me shit, God bless America, no commie atheist cowards here, fucking hippie obamaist
NathanBForrest1776 2 years ago
Well what a reasoned argument! Thank you for giving me a reason to eliminate another idiot from consideration. I appreciate the time you've saved me. Have a lovely day.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
Also - I love that you have "God" plastered all over you channel. If Jesus existed I am sure he would be very happy with your display here...very Christ like - or conspicuously mentally unstable...not sure which.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@CityzenJane atheist bitch , i see you on yer channel, i seen you
NathanBForrest1776 2 years ago
Stay classy Nathan, Your mom I'm sure would be proud.
CityzenJane 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@CityzenJane i oughta cum on yer ugly face
NathanBForrest1776 2 years ago
If you could gather more than a micron in a cup...you wouldn't be attacking an anonymous woman on the interwebs.
CityzenJane 2 years ago 6
I am sure if someone said this to your sister or your mother your beat your own head to a pulp- bottom jaw thrusting to the great expanse of the sky.. and vow to fight.but sadly you are left to faffing on the interwebs incoherherently...hoping to leave the same stain that every other waste fo skin has left on the earth..that is a brown spot where you once shat. be someone.
CityzenJane 2 years ago
Is this fear of muslims that bad in Europe? Here in the U.S I had a muslim coworker (stereotypical militant type who was actually very emotionally sensetive), and whenever he started ranting about Islamic supremecy or jews or (yes, really) black people, we would just fuck with him. One guy would wish him happy easter, or merry christmas, and ask him what he did for thanksgiving.
Boognish64 2 years ago 5
As a Brit, yes there is a massive fear of islamic terrorism in europe. We have bent over and taken this censorship for some years now, and very few people speak up about it out of fear of being killed. Europe has always been the main theatre of war the past few hundred years, and I'm very confident there will be another major war very soon. Not between countries per say, but between the jihads and people like me, secular and humanist.
finchy633 2 years ago 5
well said.
teejayandrade 2 years ago
I spent four months in Canada studying this year, and by far it is the most relaxed place I have ever been, somewhere I am considering moving in the future. However from talking to a lot of people when I was there, I found an underlying worry about Islamism. I just hope that the UK, France, Germany, U.S.A, Canada, Japan, Australia and any other free country can put aside any quarrels and defeat this menace before it gets too far.Europe is much in the balance now, and it isnt looking good.
finchy633 2 years ago 2
All religions are just as guilty of menacing humanity.
kokobaboko 2 years ago 5
Man if only that were state policy in the UK! I think the British government's misplaced religious sensitivity in these matters is shameful, I'm not in the mind to offend people pointlessly, but with the example of the Danish cartooons, I can't help feeling compelled to piss them off, purely for the reason that they dare take such blatant 'offense' at something which had every right to be in the public domain. Rock the boat people.
BlankVellum 2 years ago
That is because they have to be. Look at that cunt sitting on the throne in England, her lazy ass was put there by god. All religion is a cancer and should be abolished everywhere.
kokobaboko 2 years ago 6
this indian dude is so naive, frigging apologist for Islam...it is common for muslims to defile Hinduism because they hate it and want to see it eliminated...not because he's some "inspired thoughtful 'artiste'"...
Tharpoor would make nazis look like gentleman looking to refine the human race, the more I hear him the more I despise him...he's an embarrassment to Indians.
I applaud Hitchens smacking down the muslim painter and muslims in general...bravo
yreuq0 2 years ago 4
Exactly. Tharoor apologizes for Muslim fanatics who take offense at cartoons and then chastises Hindus for being offended for depictions of their gods.
Ramshobraja 2 years ago 4
He's a dhimmi and a traitor to India and liberal values. Sadly most people in democratic nations think like him, which is why Islam continues to exist and cause massive death, destruction and misery for humanity to this day.
Only when people with backbones (like Hitchens) who recognize Islam is a fascist totalitarian death cult that needs to be eliminated, rise up and take power while we achieve real peace and freedom. Till then Islam will remain a cancer decaying and destroying free societies.
yreuq0 2 years ago 3
edit: while=will
yreuq0 2 years ago
The most puzzling alliance is the leftist/Islamist grouping. It isn't fiction either, you see this with Labour/Islamists, Congress/Islamists, etc.
Now the next worry is that the UN is passing resolutions against 'defamation of religions'. If the Islamic nations did not have massive oil wealth this wouldn't be an issue, but that's another story...
Ramshobraja 2 years ago 2
Agreed, well I say fuck anyone that aligns with muslims, they deserve the same fate. They're traitors and should be treated accordingly.
The trouble is most people are stupid cowards who vote for left wing parties who are like them...they end up ruling us and instead of defeating terrorists/Islam, they try to appease them with horrendous consequences for us all.
There is no compromising with evil like Islam, it must be eliminated from this planet once and for all.
yreuq0 2 years ago 3
All religions are cancers, their hands are drenched in blood.
kokobaboko 2 years ago 45
I completely agree. Especially about islam. Only psychotically minded and the ill informed join this psychotic faith.
Domzdream 2 years ago 4
@kokobaboko not jainism, but then its not really a religion
GBJ83 1 year ago
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@kokobaboko "All religions are cancers, their hands are drenched in blood." Agreed. They may have been the 'moral guide' for uneducated people 2000 (or 100 000) years ago but their relevance has certainly been exceeded by modern 'ethics/morality'. The 'monopoly of morality' argument is ridiculous, though it's one of the last to fall away.
MindfulFuture 1 year ago
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yreuq0 2 years ago
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yreuq0 2 years ago
Is that lady wearing a turtleneck blouse or is something wrong with her neck? I'm not trying to make a joke, just curious.
24LakerGirl 2 years ago
Joan Bakewell is a national treasure. I suggest you look to her writings and not to her neck.
gooddartsbarry 2 years ago
its probably a scarf...she has no neck problems, I was wondering too. lol
yreuq0 2 years ago
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I find it so difficult to understand english spoken in british accent.
HailRasec 2 years ago
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LET ME TELL YOU SOME FACTS
1) Mr Hussein didnt just draw hindu godess. But he drew her NAKED !!!!!
Now try that to semitic religions and see what happens. Not ignoring Christianity has come a long way and is much more tolerant.
2) Mr Taroor is a left leaning pseudo secular liberal . He believes savages are to be tolerated (i dont know how long)
But ,he is a smart man.
3) MF Hussein is a mediocre artist. I am glad that someone tore this canvas. 92 year old man who cannot get over cezanne
vizais 2 years ago
omg , hichens just keeps lightening up ciggs .
hmt444 2 years ago
they should've put a less biased person to direct this debate heh.
Ppl need to hear how many ppl were killed as a result of this cartoon... it might open their eyes at why so much fear(that seeps into the hearts of other religious ppl like the UN spokeperson here)
leojboby 2 years ago
Hitchens is the greatest
aweiss 2 years ago 10
Ya It's a share view by the other people in the room lady but only Hitch has the balls to say it with confidence. Most everybody else is scared shitless of Muslim reprisals.
Jabo007Celt 2 years ago 8
"They have convinced the world that Hitler was German and Beethoven was Viennese" Haha
Jabo007Celt 2 years ago 6
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directedchaos 2 years ago
i love how hitchens lights up right on stage as he takes several swigs from (what seems to be) a glass of beer.
spartan2600 2 years ago 10
its whiksky......hic...hic....urp.....exsqueeze me im certainly not drink cuntsable...hic.
lumpfish99 2 years ago 4
I love hitchens...everytime I hear some prat try to stop free speach I wich hitchens would bitch slap them
Elcristoph 3 years ago 12