The Ontario Orange Order on Parade in 2008

[Islandretreat]

Devil in the Vatican - New World Order

watch?v=o6Itxks7SZo

[JPLFINN]

I believe your order is considering action against UUP leader for attending the funeral of a catholic NI Police officer killed by RIRA

YOU PEOPLE BELONG IN THE STONE AGE

[GaraGambini]

Hands across the water, No Surrender!

[greg69lowry]

great to see our culture and heritage across the globe

[aggyuvf]

NO Surrender all you papes fuck off and die Rangers UVF

[okeeft01]

And to those of you who maintain that Orange Orde parades are innocuous expressions of Britishness, look over at Northern Ireland now where your brethern's insistence on marching through Catholic areas is now about to destabilise the govt that Catholics and Protestants alike desperately want to work. Your march may not have far-reaching consequences in Ontario but these marches are having serious consequences here.

[scouseproddyboy]

the catholic church also teaches that good works will help you enter heaven in the bible it says For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8, 10 the rc church call this indulgences and they can 'worked' off that is another thing we oppose

[scouseproddyboy]

there are many more teachings of the rc church that we oppose it is built on lies and deceit and the teachings of this erroneous religion are designed to keep irs followers in bondage to the rc church once you have read up on the true origins of the church this becomes very clear and concise it was built on the traditions of man not on the teachings of god that was given to us by the lord our saviour jesus christ

[TheTollundWoman]

I respect your beliefs, but if you're trying to get me to accept Jesus as my "personal saviour", I'm frankly not interested. I used to live in the "Bible belt" here in the states, I've had enough of people telling me I'm going to hell

[scouseproddyboy]

i am not trying to get you to accept anything you asked what we oppose i simply answered and as far as me telling you that your going to hell i think you have me mixed up with a roman catholic as that is their style i am protestant and believe that christ has already paid for our sins

[TheTollundWoman]

sorry if i misinterpreted... but i think you're way too judgmental of Catholics/Catholicism

[scouseproddyboy]

i have already stated that i am not against catholics (some of my family are catholic) but catholicism i believe is inherently wrong how can a religion say it is the one the true church when it tortured and burned people for hundreds of years simply for not being catholic it was at the very core of most wars throughout the middle ages it has the blood of millions of people on its hands how can it possibly be of god as they say?

[TheTollundWoman]

the inquisition was a horrible chapter in human history. but do you honestly think the catholic church is the only religion in history to be intolerant and violent? every religion on earth has persecuted and oppressed people at some point, if you want to talk about Protestantism I suggest you visit Topeka, Kansas, home of Fred Phelps, a protestant minister who pickets gay people's funerals screaming insults at their families.

[scouseproddyboy]

ihave actually seen phelps on tv and i was disgusted at his and his supporters actions but it is quite worrying that you have drawn a comparison between shouting insults and torture/murder of MILLIONS of innocent people name a protestant church that has done so in the name of god

[TheTollundWoman]

Have you studied the history of any other religions, beside christianity? Almost every one of them has tortured and murdered "heretics" at some point. Also consider the actions of just about every government in history. i'll give you examples if you want..

Torture and murder aren't the sole domain of one religion, or even of religion in general as Dawkins says, they're a result of human nature which has some extremely messed-up elements

[TheTollundWoman]

you're looking only at the bad things the Catholic church has done. What about all the good things? the church has built schools and hospitals all over the world, you think mother theresa was a mass murderer??

[scouseproddyboy]

so what your saying is that if i murdered someone then i built a school straight afterwards that would make it ok and you have made comments on various videos about the orange lodge badmouthing them yet you have not been on roman catholic or ira videos and badmouthed them why is that

[TheTollundWoman]

I've never badmouthed the IRA? I suggest you look at my conversation with "WolfArden44" who seems to think I've been brainwashed by "british propaganda". Or look at my comment on DubRepublicanMedia's channel, where I point out that IRA bombs are essentially war crimes.

[TheTollundWoman]

Now you're equating "roman catholic" with "IRA"???

[scouseproddyboy]

i siad catholic OR ira NOT catholic ira which would have meant that i was equating them but the OR in between does NOT mean i am equating them you are anti orange in a big way without ANY experience of the situation in northern ireland i was brought up in belfast so i am far better equipped to comment on these than you are

[TheTollundWoman]

Now I finally understand why Quebec wants to secede

[moffthemod]

Would you care to explain that TollundWoman. You're surely not suggesting that Quebec wants to separate from Canada because of a few thousand Orangemen in Ontario!? I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here. Are you an American of Irish extraction with an RC background who wants a mono cultural United Ireland but has never visited the place?

[TheTollundWoman]

I am American, I am Agnostic, I don't want a "mono-cultural" society in Ireland or anywhere else. I frankly don't care whether or not there's a united Ireland. I don't think it will change anything other than the flags. I've had far too many bad experiences with American super-patriots to really get into nationalism in any form.

That said the Orange Order, at least in the recent past, has been a sectarian organization, their whole emphasis seems to be on what they *aren't*

[TheTollundWoman]

Some of my ancestors were Irish, I also have English, German and Lithuanian ancestry.

Don't really think of myself as "Irish-American". I'm interested in Irish history but this is a coincidence (I also like British punk rock but I don't trace that to my English ancestry...)

[TheTollundWoman]

As for my "RC background"

my Dad was raised Catholic, my Mom was raised Baptist

they both converted to Methodism

but like I said I'm Agnostic

[moffthemod]

No problem TollundWoman, just curious. All I'd say about the OO is judge them on the Orange people you know, not whats written about them. I say this because the stuff written about them especially on the internet bares absolutely no resemblance to the reality. The organisation has been demonised to the extent that they're compared with the KKK which is utter nonsense. Some of the most decent, honest people I have ever met have been Orange men

[TheTollundWoman]

I'd agree it's a stretch to compare the OO to the KKK... but in the past its members have intimidated innocent people, because of their religion. The whole reason the marches in Garvaghy road were banned is because in the past, there had been violence against the catholics

[moffthemod]

I'd say that there is a very small minority in the OO who have intimidated RC's. Its a massive organisation and as such will attract a wide variety of people. Look at any football match. The vast majority go to see the game; an element go to cause trouble. Thats life. People have been expelled for doing these crimes and rightly so. They're a disgrace imo.

[moffthemod]

Heres the story about the Garvaghy Road. That parade has been going on for over 100 years. Its a Sunday church parade and for many years there was no issue. Then part of the parade route ie the Garvaghy Road over time became predominantly RC. Its now totally RC because all the Protestants have left. I wouldn't move somewhere where there was a parade that offended me; would you? This rift was deliberately stirred up by Sinn Fein as Mr Adams admits ,they did it well and made P/Down more divided

[TheTollundWoman]

Yes, i'm sure Sinn Fein was eager to exploit the situation.. Sinn Fein turns just about everything into a political football

But it doesn't make sense why, if the Protestants have moved, why does the Orange Order even want to parade there?

[moffthemod]

Tricky one that. Probably 1001 reasons depending who you ask. The common ones would be

1. Traditional parade - fathers, grandfathers etc took part in it.

2. If they backed down it could affect many parades. The big parade is 12th July in Belfast which would be unworkable if the principle of freedom of movement was abandoned and it would turn the parade into a farce.

3. Stubbornness from people who were forced to leave the Garvaghy Road.

I'm sure theres many others!

[TheTollundWoman]

people were *forced* to leave?

[moffthemod]

Yes, forced or made to feel so unwelcome that they left. That was one of the saddest part of the Troubles in NI and both traditions are guilty. Very few neighbourhoods would be classified as mixed now except for affluent ones. Theres a lot of bridge building to be done and it has to be on the basis of respecting each others traditions.

[scouseproddyboy]

have just been reading through the comments by okeef and the tollund woman i would just like to ask you both what are your PERSONAL experiences of the orange order and its members you being russian okeef and you being american the tollund woman

[TheTollundWoman]

I don't have any personal experiences with the Orange Order; everything I know about the Orange Order and Irish history in general is based on books and news reports I've read, not on personal experience.

[scouseproddyboy]

so without any first hand experience of the situation you feel you can comment on the present day orange order? how do you know what you have read/heard is the truth? maybe a trip to northern ireland to meet with some real life orangemen may give you a more rounded viewpoint of what a majority of orangemen are really like the truth is that yes we are against the teachings of the catholic church but are not against catholic people themselves catholic people are actually allowed in to the oo

[scouseproddyboy]

after a reasonable amount of time of attending their local protestant church does this sound sectarian to you the truth is people have been manipulated by various bodies like the ira and indeed the catholic church itself to believe we are demons when a vast majority of orangemen are law abiding god fearing people who would not turn away anybody that is in need whatever their denomination most of my friends are catholic and indeed many of my extended family are catholic too so i am sectarian ami

[TheTollundWoman]

I'd definitely love to go to Northern Ireland, unfortunately right now I simply can't afford it.

I don't think it's very likely that every single book about Northern Ireland is full of lies, and that every journalist giving eyewitness accounts is making stuff up as they go along. Some sources are more objective than others, but I've read stuff from both perspectives.

[TheTollundWoman]

What teachings of the Catholic Church does the Orange Order oppose, and why?

[scouseproddyboy]

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7 two small excerptts from the bible that clearly state that JESUS is the only mediator between us and god not a priest and only the lord god has the power to forgive us our sins NOT a priest which the rc would have you believe that is one of the teachings we oppose

[TheTollundWoman]

If Jesus is the only mediator between us and God, then why do almost all Protestant denominations have pastors and ministers, whose role is almost indistinguishable from the role of priests in the Catholic church?

Apart from the Quakers I'm not aware of any Christian sect which doesn't have some mediator between God and the congregation.

[scouseproddyboy]

protestant ministers do not say they can forgive sins like a priest does they stand at the front of the congregation and read the word of god that is all no more no less that is not acting as a mediator between god and men it is just spreading the word of god the priest puts himself in a role as mediator he can hear your sins give you hail marys and hey presto you are forgiven a protestant minister will tell you to confess your sins to god as only he has the power to forgive now u understand?

[TheTollundWoman]

I don't think you understand the idea confession. It's not a way to sin and "presto" be forgiven just by saying you're sorry. the idea is that you own up to your sins and accept responsibility- only then can you be forgiven, by god and by society. everyone also has to make his/her peace with god, confession can't replace this and doesn't claim to.

You say only god can forgive your sins, what if your sins hurt other people? then those people deserve an apology too

[scouseproddyboy]

"i absolve you from your sins in the name of the father son and holy spirit" is this not what the priest says after you have confessed notice that starts the sentence it starts with I

[okeeft01]

The latest statistic publicly available for OO membership in Ireland (unclear if that's the 6 or 32 counties) is from Drew Nelson, the Order's grand secretary in 2006 which was 35,728 (timesonline). The 2009 population of Northern Ireland is 1775000 and the 2001 census said 45.9% were Protestant and 73.2% were 18 years and older. Therefore of the 658k adult Protestant populations, a MAX of 36k are in the OO which is 5.4% (substantially less than 1 in 10) and which I say is not representative.

[okeeft01]

In 2010, I have a feeling that there might be few counter marches and leaflets handed out to dispel your myths about the Orange Order. Perhaps even a website with the proud marchers so that Canadians can get to see who they employ, do business with and interact with. The Orange Order is an "anti-Catholic, Protestant supremacist sectarian" organisation. Wiki it and reseach what the organisation stands for -Ireland North and South doesn't want this hatred.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

The Orange Order is not anti-Roman Catholic. It is pro-Protestant.

The Republic of Ireland government even provide grant for the maintenance and refurbishment of Orange Halls in the ROI.

If you are relying on Wikipedia for your 'information' - I can only laugh at your comments so far.

[okeeft01]

The Orange Order is anti-Catholic and this is evidenced by its membership requirement with respect to Catholic church services, a stance which has nothing to do with Protestantism. Its stance encourages an apartheid between religions and members are implicitly forbidden from having social relationships with Catholics - if you can't marry one, attend one's funeral mass or the baptism of their children then that's SECTARIAN. Fact.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

In Northern Ireland the OO is perceived as part of the wider Protestant heritage. The apartheid label is both wrong and insulting.

Lol....I think from your comments you are questioning the existance of Protestantism in the first place.

As for mixed marriages; well the RC has no problem with one of their own marrying a Protestant - on the strict proviso that any and all issue are baptized and brought up as Roman Catholics.

I have no problem with the AOH rule on RCs.

[okeeft01]

The OO has less than 1 in 10 adult Protestants in NI as members and has been steadily declining since the 1960s. Protestantism does not equal OO and to claim the OO is representative of NI Protestantism is insulting to 90% of Protestants. If you read my comments then you'll know that I welcome the Protestant faith - it's genetically 99.99% the same as my own. I know of not one Catholic that has married a Protestant that has been expelled because they didn't raise any issue as Catholic.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Like I stated earlier, you clearly have axes to grind here.

The OO holds a special position within the Protestant culture of Northern Ireland.

It is an expression of history, culture, pride, and a celebration of the religious freedoms secured by the Glorious Revolution of 1689-90.

"If you cut the NI Protestant, he will bleed orange."

I know at least 3 RC ladies who were refused the right to be married in an RC church unless they agreed to raise their kids as Catholics.

[okeeft01]

Given that 1 in 10 Protestant adults in NI is a OO member and given the demographics, I think you'll find cutting 94% of Protestants you'll find red, the same as Catholics. Celebrate history, culture, pride and religious freedom, I'd like to join you (not YOU, you're not an Orangeman) but because I'm Catholic I can't (that's okay too) but start dividing yourself from 90% of co-religionists and from the Catholic faith then you (again not YOU) promote hatred.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Utter rubbish.

Everyone is welcome to the Orangefest celebrations in Northern Ireland on 12th July each year.

The latest estimates are that between 600,000 and 700,000 people are out to watch the parades if not take part in them.

It is a festival and the organization receive grants and funding both by the British and Irish governments - North and South of the border. If the OO is "sectarian" then so too are the London and Dublin governments.

[moffthemod]

Ok using your analogy that 1 in 10 Protestant adults are in the OO. Its basically a male organisation so already the percentage of Orange families increase to 20%. Then add the fact that only a minority of band members are in the OO and the percentage of people who supports the OO increases to 40%. Then add the people who just don't join things and you have a majority! It is opposed to the RC church teaching but that is no different to any Protestant organisation/church thus the Reformation

[okeeft01]

It is not at all the fact that the OO is Protestant that I find offensive. Read my comments. It is the fact that the Orange Order sets itself aside from the Protestant religion and bans members from attending Catholic services which is divisive (needlessly because there is no such religious obligation). Ireland, Protestant and Catholic, does not want this organisation which has declined by over 60% since the 1960s.

[moffthemod]

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that the OO sets itself aside from the Protestant religion. Each Protestant denomination has different attitudes to worship, interpretation of the bible etc. If anything, the OO unifies the various branches of Protestantism. As for non attendance at Catholic services, thats a lot of fuss about nothing and isn't adherred to. I think if you saw the crowds supporting the Orange parades in NI you would revise your opinion

[okeeft01]

"As for non attendance at Catholic services, thats a lot of fuss about nothing and isn't adherred to." Really? When Constable Stephen Carroll was murdered by dissident Republicans in 2009, not one Orangemen joined Catholics or Protestants, the Chief Constable, widow and a church packed to the gunnels. That's what puts the OO outside the rest of society, that's what divides and we don't need that division here.

[moffthemod]

Are you making this up as you go along Okeeft? I know of numerous Orangemen who attended that funeral! They just don't walk around with sashes on all day!

[okeeft01]

Care to identify one who did attend the funeral mass? I know several attended the burial but do not know one that was at the mass. Care to put me right?

[moffthemod]

This is getting ridiculous Okeef. Numerous Orange friends of mine attended the funeral mass. In fact I can't think of one RC funeral I have attended where members of the Orange Order have not been present. I could I suppose start listing people but it would take much more than 500 characters and they're just ordinary folk. The non attendance at funeral masses is taken literally by some and they just attend the burial. Others go to the mass. Its a matter of conscience. Whats divisive about that?

[okeeft01]

Really? Care to Identify one (Name and Lodge - will only require about 50 characters) and tell me how they might reconcile attendance with the degree "never to attend any act or ceremony of popish worship. These are matters upon which we look seriously and if indulged in may cause your expulsion from our order"?

[moffthemod]

You know I will not identify one. 304 Orangemen have been murdered by the IRA since 1969. I value friendship and the safety of friends much more than proving a point to you. You can accept it or not. I know it to be true. I think the emphasis is on the "may". Its a historical decree which I have never heard applied. Guess what, I've friends who are Orangemen and friends who are RCs, atheists etc and they all get on fine. I think you're seeing problems where there aren't any. Hows Russia! lol

[okeeft01]

Я ИРЛАНДИЦ НО Я РАБОТИЮ В РУССИЕ

So how many RC weddings, baptisms and funeral services have you attended? (I'm RC and I would estimate I've been to about 20 Protestant services for my friends). Did you go along with your good (youtube) friend, Oliver Cromwell 1649?

[moffthemod]

Numerous ones! Probably about 50/50 with Protestant ones! What is your point?

[okeeft01]

Ah! I assumed you were in the OO. My mistake for the presumption if I am wrong - are you?

You see if Ireland, or Northern Ireland, is to grow away from the historical hatreds there will need to be a meeting and interaction of the traditions. The OO by its rules and degrees sets itself forth as divisive. Celebrate Britishness, culture, history - fine but that shouldn't be in the context of a sectarian organisation.

[moffthemod]

I wouldn't get too hung up on the OO Okeef. Its just A expression of Britishness, not THE expression of Britishness which is a very broad cloth. I agree that there needs to be more interaction and respect for peoples traditions. I personally don't care what people believe so long as it doesn't involve guns or bombs. I can't see how the OO is more divisive than the AOH or St Patricks day (I've yet to see a NI flag on display at any parade) but good luck to them; I haven't a problem with either

[okeeft01]

Well that's all right then. It would carry a little more sincerity if your only youtube friend wasn't Oliver1649 (after Cromwell who in 1649 massacred Irish Catholics). It's like you sympathise with the Holocaust and your best friend is AH1889 or believe in God and your best friend is Satan666. Insincere? Let Canadians research this organisation and make their own minds up if it is sectarian.

[moffthemod]

I didn't realise I had any friends on youtube Okeef! As for that Cromwell thing, I just assumed it was a wind up! Anyway, history shouldn't be treated by todays standards. I can't imagine theres too many things that were acceptable in those days that would be acceptable now eg burning at the stake, public hangings etc. Believe it or not I only started posting several weeks ago because I saw nonsense being posted about NI from people who'd never been there and I hoped to correct misconceptions!

[okeeft01]

Take a look at your profile to see your friend! Doesn't look good if you really believe in inclusiveness and putting down sectarianism. What credibility would you have if you advocated equality of rights for blacks and then turn out to have one friend, KKK1885? And seriously, given the OO's relish for history, you can't see anything wrong with the username oliver1649?

[moffthemod]

I wasn't aware Ollie was my mate til you pointed it out. Probably my internet illiteracy. I haven't a problem with the guys posts so I'm not bothered. To me, his name tag is just a wind up to provoke debate because I haven't seen anything he has posted which is sectarian or offensive. As for credibility, I'm speaking from my life experiences. I'm very much in the "love thy neighbour" camp. Whether you believe me or not is entirely up to you. I'm not in the OO but I doubt most O men know 1649!

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

You use the word "credibility" but all I see from you are poorly researched attempts to attack the OO and 'just because' remarks about historic figures.

No facts, just repeating the same claims over and over without supporting evidence.

[scouseproddyboy]

have just been reading through the comments by okeef and the tollund woman i would just like to ask you both what are your PERSONAL experiences of the orange order and its members you being russian okeef and you being american the tollund woman

[TheTollundWoman]

I couldn't agree more. The Orange Order could at any point move away from its sectarian stance and embrace a more ecumenical vision of Christianity. Until it does so, it will remain a negative influence in the overall cultural and political environment, and will deserve just about every bit of criticism it gets.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Are you able yet to provide one (just one) eye-witness account that claims Oliver Cromwell either ordered or was involved in the deaths of non-combatants during his canpaign in Ireland?

Come along now, stop squirming and either answer the question or admit you're unable/unwilling to do so.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

I state again - not true....

In the Galloway vs Ingram case, Lord Justice Kingarth was refering to the flute band and not the Orange Order itself.

Galloway only avoided prosecution due to the fact that the comments were printed some 40 years after the event.

I suggest you read the original court transcripts of which I have a copy - not Wikipedia.

Do you have a copy?

[okeeft01]

Oliver, I'm RC and am lucky to have many Protestant friends. When they get married I go to the wedding ceremony, I go to the baptism ceremony and I've sadly gone to a few funerals (that is the ceremony and the burial). I join with other Catholics to repair each others churches, every year in our town we rotate churches. Nothing in any of this offends my RC faith. Have you any Catholic friends and have you ever gone to their weddings? If you can't because of the Orange Order , something's wrong.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

I am not a member of any organization.

I have no interest in your religion or what you do in your spare time.

[okeeft01]

Glad to hear it as far as the Orange Order goes, all the best to you.

[okeeft01]

Ecw, if the Knights of Columbus (who I have never heard of and I am RC so I had to wiki them) disciplined or expelled a Catholic for attending a Protestant's baptism you should publicise that because it's just plain wrong - the Orange Order is bashed (in your words) not because it's a Protestant only organisation but because of it's hatred of Catholicism - seriously in NI, if you're Protestant and your RC neighbour dies, you can't attend the funeral. That's just plain wrong and you know it.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Orangemen are pro-Protestant not anti-Roman Catholic.

As an Orangeman you should not take part in a Roman Catholic mass but you can attend a Roman Catholic funeral.

There were many Orangemen at the funeral of murdered Catholic police officer Stephen Carroll earlier this year.

I also suggest you look up the entry requirements for the Ancient Order of Hibernians.

They parade through New York and Boston every year on St Patrick's Day.

[okeeft01]

Oliver, in my original post I quoted the Judge's conclusion in a libel case in the UK where the judge accepted that the Orange Order is an anti-Catholic, Protestant supremacist, sectarian organisation. The case was Ingram v Galloway (it's on wiki). I have nothing against people celebrating their traditions but in Ireland people are murdered because of this hatred.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Not true....

I think you'll find that Lord Justice Kingarth was refering to the flute band and not the Orange Order itself.

Galloway only avoided prosecution due to the fact that the comments were printed some 40 years after the event.

I suggest you read the original court transcripts of which I have a copy.

[okeeft01]

1649, from wiki The Judge, Lord Kingarth, decided to refuse an interim interdict, that the balance of the arguments favoured Galloway's publisher, and that the phrase "sectarian, anti-Catholic, Protestant-supremacist" was fair comment on that organisation [the Orange Order, not some band - my words]

[okeeft01]

Lastly in Ireland we don't have an Order of Hibernians but I have certainly come across 3rd generation and beyond Irish in the US where there is an atavistic hatred of all things British. Modern Ireland has moved on and the truth is we'd laugh at that sort of shield bashing for wars that are long gone.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Not correct: There are a number of AOH branches in Ireland.

In Northern Ireland they are not so difficult to find.

The "atavistic hatred of all things British" in some quarters of so-called "Irish America" is both bigoted and ridiculous.

The same people support the US in the war on terror. Who has been and continues to be America's closest ally in all these military campaigns?

The Republic of Ireland?

I think not.

The British, of course lol.

[okeeft01]

Given that 40m US citizens claim Irish descent (remember, Colonel James Hickey who captured Saddam? both parents Irish), I'm not sure I'd agree with you. In less than 1 in 10 Protestant adults is a member of the Orange Order (there has been a steady decline pretty much in line with the KKK) - outside NI the number of members is tiny - 99% of Brits don't want this sectarianism.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Your comparison with the KKK is nothing but a throwaway schoolboy remark - and entirely disingenuous. Do the OO wear masks?

My friend being proud of your religion and culture is not sectarianism.

"My Ulster Blood is a priceless heritage."

--James Buchanan, 15th President of the United States

[okeeft01]

Whether Mr Buchanan's blood comes from the 6 county artificial statelet created in 1921 or the other three counties of Ulster (Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan) is unclear.

The tradition of uniform, supremacy, titles (Grand Dragon/Grand Master), marches, sectarianism, decline in membership is in line with the Klu Klux Klan.

Celebrating culture - great. Spreading sectarianism towards one other religion - let's see how Orangism goes forward in Canda.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

I don't think you realize how insulting terms like "6 county artificial statelet" are, do you?

The Irish Free State broke away from the greater UK via self determination in 1921.

By the same token, Northern Ireland chose to remain within the UK via self determination.

Both instances are legitimate and internationally recognized.

Again, to compare the OO to the KKK is simply schoolboy rhetoric with no basis in fact.

I think you have some axes to grind.

[okeeft01]

What most people refer to as Northern Ireland contains 6 counties. The province of Ulster contains 9 counties. The 6 counties had no historical boundary or justification other than having a Protestant majority and therefore it was an artificial delineation. The new territory formed a statelet (ie not a sovereign state but then again not completely absorbed into the UK - its final determination was to be in 1921). Both the KKK and OO are sectarian - difference? the KKK has largely disappeared.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

I see that you accept the right of the Irish Free State to self-determination from the wider UK but not that of Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland.

Why?

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Why use the incorrect and derisory term "statelet"?

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Lol....that's hilarious....

Is Colonel James Hickey a citizen of the Irish Republic?

Is he a member of the Irish Defense Force?

How many IDF soldiers were sent to support the US is either Iraq or Afghanistan?

The Irish did exactly what they did during WWII, they stood by and watched.

Both the British and US embassies in Dublin were attacked and vandalized when news came through in 1945 that Hitler was defeated.

[okeeft01]

Not sure about any attack on the US embassy in Ireland when Hitler was defeated. The British embassy was attacked after Bloody Sunday in 1972 and the hungerstrikes in 1981. Back in the 1940s, the memory of the War of Independence in the 1910s was fresh in people's memories and there was not much sympathy with Britain during the war.

Ireland plays its part proudly in peacekeeping operations in Africa and the middle East, and it's an honourable position for a relatively small country.

[TheTollundWoman]

Very good point. Ireland, along with Switzerland, is one of the few neutral countries in modern Europe. Unfortunately this neutrality has been compromised to a certain extent, with American warplanes being allowed land at the Shannon airport on their way to and from Iraq. But all in all Ireland has a much better record than the rest of Europe, when it comes to respecting nations' sovereignty.

[okeeft01]

Name one Orangeman or woman at Stephen Carroll's funeral (Stephen Carroll being the PSNI Catholic murdered by dissident Republicans in Northern Ireland in March 2009). I saw many Catholics and Protestants at the service paying their respects to a brave hero policeman but I did not see one single member of the Orange Order but then again I wouldn't expect too because the Orange Order would expel them..

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

There were at least 6 senior members of Randalstown District Loyal Orange Lodge No. 22 in attendance at Stephen Carroll's funeral. They did not take part in the service. I do not have their names.

Orangemen are not always wearing their sashes you know.

The Orange Order also raised money for the benevolent associations connected to the two soldiers and the police officer murdered that week.

[okeeft01]

Accepted, Orangemen can attend a burial of a Catholic without being expelled. My point stands - the Orange Order expels members that attend a Catholic mass service (be that a funeral, baptism or wedding). Protestants outside the Order have no such restrictions. Catholics have no such restrictions. It is the Orange Order which has chosen its SECTARIAN stance for its members. Not a problem in Canada perhaps, in Ireland people get killed because of the open hatred it sets forth.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

I diagree.

The Orange Order is a pro-Protestant organization.

Participation in a Roman Catholic mass goes counter to their deeply held beliefs.

I see no issue with this restriction. Protestants do not have to join the OO.

Please explain how choosing not to attend a mass get people killed?

Unless, of course, you are claiming that every Protestant killed during the 'Troubles' was done to death for no other reason than being a Protestant?

[okeeft01]

Participation by a Protestant in a Catholic mass does NOT go counter to a Protestant's deeply held beliefs. Ditto the reverse. However it does go counter to the Orange Order's beliefs deeply held or not and that's the point about the OO being sectarian. Sectarianism gets people killed in Northern Ireland - if you know anything about that territory, you would know that eh 1649 or does that make you feel better than 1641?

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Lol....well, it's great to finally have you out of the closet my friend.

So tell us, how long have you hated Protestants then?

[okeeft01]

Well Oliver (surely not Cromwell) 1649 (surely not the year in which old Ironside massacred a few hundred thousand Catholics), I think it is you that have come out of the closet or was your username an accident.

Is it anathema to you that Catholics and Protestants can get along together - in Ontario they do swimmingly (speaking from experience)? The OO's stance however is to divide so I hold a poor view of the OO but since you're not part of that organisation (?) why do you care?

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Oh, you really are out of that closet now, aren't you?

Where does it say in the degrees of the OO that they wish to divide?

Come along now, let's have some facts instead of the 'I hate Protestants' routine.

Oh and since you brought up the topic, provide one (just one) eye-witness account that claims Oliver Cromwell either ordered or was involved in the deaths of non-combatants during his canpaign in Ireland.

[okeeft01]

Let me get this straight - I have been exchanging messages on youtube with a member who choose the username oliver1649 which is derived from Oliver Cromwell and 1649, the year in which he invaded Ireland and massacred Catholics. Well, it's been fun but I'm going to sign out of the exchanges - get yourself a new username sometime and I'd be happy to talk. To the viewers, the Orange Order is a sectarian, anti-Catholic organisation that a modern Ireland, North or South, doesn't want.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Lol....no, the Orange Order is legal, open, and bible-based Christian organisation that thinly veiled anti-Protestant bigots like you do not want.

Come back again my friend when you have some facts to offer up.

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Lol....I don't like milk in my tea.

Does that make me anti-cow?

[okeeft01]

No but when you kick (expel) someone out of your house (Orange Order) who does like milk in their tea (Catholicism) or who drinks black tea with others who do drink it with milk (attends Catholic services), then yes that does make you anti-milk (anti-Catholic).

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

The AOH only permit RC members and they happily parade through New York and Boston each St Patrick's Day. Are they also sectarian?

Do you compare them to the KKK?

[TheTollundWoman]

There are almost no sectarian tensions in the modern; socially conservative Catholics and evangelical Protestants have united on common political ground through the Republican party, while more liberal members of both denominations favor a more secular, multicultural and less conservative society. Whatever sectarian tensions did exist in the US have been replaced by appalling political polarization between "red states" and "blue states."

[scouseproddyboy]

this discussion is not about the usa dont try take it off into another direction please stick to the subject

[Oliver1649]

okeeft01,

Tell me, where in the OO rules and guidelines does it advocate sectarian murder?

Name one instance, just one.

[okeeft01]

The OO rules command its members to never attend a Catholic ceremony. Protestantism has no such rules. The effect of such rules is to divide society into "them and us" and then the rules are re-inforced by the expulsion procedure. That's sectarian and allows the violent element to justify their actions against the "them".

[ecwlievtenant]

Them's the lads! March on, Brampton and Hamilton lodges!

No Surrender!

WATP!

Keith F. Loyal #228 NYC

[okeeft01]

Who do Canadians allow a sectarian, anti-Catholic, Protestant-supremacist organisation (the Judge's conclusion in Ingram v Galloway) to parade on its streets? The organisation exludes Catholics and expels members that attend a Catholic service like a funeral or baptism. You wouldn't let the KKK march. In Ireland, we're trying to build an inclusive and tolerant society for Catholics and Protestants and there is no place for this hatred.

[ecwlievtenant]

To Okeeft01: Spoken like a typical Orange-basher. Gad, you people are dull.

Point one: The Roman Catholic Knights of Columbus applies a similar rule - you must be a Roman Catholic to join and if you receive communion in a protestant church you will be disciplined and/or expelled.

So go and pick on your own side, hater.

Point 2: the KKK excludes non-whites, the Orange Order embraces ALL creedal protestants, regardless of race.

Now go count how many blacks belong to the AoH, hater.

[scouseproddyboy]

this is a private message sent to me by jrcasselman now who is the hypocrite?

[jrcasselman]

First off, I resent you calling me a hypocrite. Now for the record, I did some research and found that if James III (or any other Catholic Monarch) had been on the throne in 1709, my ancestors would not have been given passage in the New World, as the reason for Queen Anne offering the Palatines refuge was to create a larger presence of protestants in the British part of North America, to counter the increasing French presence in New France/Quebec.

[jrcasselman]

Just because I do not support the Orange Order does not make me a hypocrite. Now if I felt that James II or any other Pretenders had a right to the throne, I would be a hypocrite. I do not, and when my United Church in Winnipeg had a St. Andrews Day celebration, some of the guests from the local Scottish Society spoke highly of Charles Edward Stuart, I almost gave them a piece of my mind, as if he had succeeded at the battle, Protestantism would have taken a very different turn.

[jrcasselman]

Now there is one thing about the Glorious Revolution and Glorious Twelfth that both Catholic and Protestant sides tend to downplay. They were not just Catholicism vs. Protestantism. James II was a cousin and ally of Louis XIV, other words, a Bourbon. This was the real reason that Parliament ousted him. Having a Bourbon on the throne would have meant absolutism and repression of Protestantism, essentially bringing England under the control of the French.

[jrcasselman]

Now as I said before, William had the Pope’s backing of the Pope in 1688. That Pope was no friend of the Bourbons, who were in control of France and Spain. A Bourbon on the English throne would have made them more powerful, so the Pope backed William. At the Battle of the Boyne, there was a contingent of Dutch Catholics, the Blue Guards, who fought for William of Orange. Therefore, the events of 1688 and 1690 were more about the Bourbons, than Catholicism vs. Protestantism.

[jrcasselman]

Therefore, it is pretty obvious that William of Orange had nothing against Catholicism or Catholics. Now you say that while you are anti Catholicism, you are not anti-Catholic. Well, I beg to differ.

[jrcasselman]

The dictionary’s definition of the Orange Order is a fraternal organization dedicated to Protestant ascendancy and succession (aka control) in Northern Ireland. A piece in the archive section of the CBC website also described the Orange Order as being extremely anti-catholic.

[jrcasselman]

And when I mean anti-catholic, I mean denying Catholics the same civil and human rights that Protestants have. I read how one mayor of Toronto who was an Orangeman, was opposed to a parade honoring a newly elevated Bishop. Sounds anti-Catholic to me.

[jrcasselman]

Now as I understand it, Orangemen are not allowed to attend Catholic ceremonies such as funeral masses, baptisms and weddings. I ask you, does this extend to ceremonies of other non-Protestant Christian faiths (Orthodox or Coptic), or non-Christian faiths (ie a Jewish wedding, Bris or Bar Mitzvah)? If not, than I would say you are anti-Catholic, and to use William of Orange as a martyr and the Battle of the Boyne as a Holy Day is hypocritical.

[jrcasselman]

I am critical of certain aspects of Catholic dogma. One of these is the over infatuation with the Virgin Mary. Unlike most protestants, I believe that she and Joseph were celibate and did not have children. To me, the reason for this is that it would have been dangerous for Christ to have any blood relations. If these people had offspring, then there would be the risk of these offspring using their relationship to Christ as a reason for claiming power.

[jrcasselman]

The Catholic Church equated her celibacy with her sinlessness, making it seem that anything sexual is a sin, and this has led to a lot of issues within the church. At the same time, Mary’s place has done some good, allowing the establishment of female religious orders. While some have committed acts of atrocity (I have seen The Magdalene Sisters) many have been the first examples of social work, essentially the female side of the church, which has continued to this day.

[jrcasselman]

What gets me is that instead of supporting them, the Church has been investigating them. Over the past year, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (aka the Inquisition) has been investigating the activities of the American female orders that operate in the community, while the cloistered orders and the male orders have been left alone. Go figure!

[jrcasselman]

I also disagree with the church’s views on birth control. Now once it was necessary to have lots of children, but thanks to medical and social advances, death rates have plummeted, so it is necessary to have fewer births.

[jrcasselman]

I also disagree with abstinence only (or ignorance only) sex education. IMO, if a person’s beliefs mean anything, comprehensive sex education will not make a scrap of difference in whether they turn in their V card before their wedding night. Also, some people might simply not bother being celibate and it is wrong to give them false information in the hopes that they will.

[jrcasselman]

The actions of the church in not dealing with priests who abused children is also another issue, which needs no further comment. I also disagree with the latest move in forbidding gluten-free communion wafers. I mean how does the church know that what they use today was the same type of bread used at Last Supper?

[jrcasselman]

Being critical of Catholicism does not equate being anti-Catholic, which means discriminating against members of the Catholic faith. Some of the most vocal critics of Catholic dogma come from its own ranks. Many disagree with the church’s stance on issues such as abortion, birth control, clergy celibacy, the ordination of women as priests and so forth.

[jrcasselman]

Some critics remain in the church despite these disagreements; others have formed Catholic communities outside the church’s jurisdiction; and others have become non-practicing Catholics. This has resulted in the church becoming more conservative, as the hardliners make up the majority of the diminishing membership. John Paul II’s long reign has only strengthened this, with every Cardinal being appointed by either him or Benedict XVI, meaning that the next Pope will also be a hard-liner.

[jrcasselman]

Further, I am convinced that John Paul I was internally assassinated. He was more open to birth control, even going so far as to say “God does not always provide”; was more sympathetic to homosexuality; was going to investigate the actions of the Vatican Bank, and probably would have done something regarding the actions of priests who sexually abused children.

[jrcasselman]

At the same time, there are some aspects of Catholicism that I do admire. Namely, its views on science. Unlike Protestant fundamentalists, Rome has accepted the theories of the Big Bang and evolution, using them to justify the existence of God and in so doing, making god more complex than described by the Bible. At least they learned their lessons from their wrongful conviction of Galileo.

[jrcasselman]

Now I am also critical of views espoused by Protestant faiths. One thing I find particularly disgusting is these Purity Balls underway in the US. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against young people taking an oath to remain celibate until married (providing that they can keep such a promise). But for a young woman to swear her virginity to her father takes this to a whole new level, almost a form of incest.

[jrcasselman]

I also dislike the views espoused by fundamentalists regarding sex education and contraception, evolution, the Big Bang, same-sex marriage, equating Christianity with right-wing politics (see the film Jesus Camp) and so forth.

[jrcasselman]

I also disagree with any religion that practices any kind of narrow mindedness. Examples include the Sikhs not wanting to use tables for communal meals, Orthodox Christianity not allowing guide dogs in the churches, Orthodox Judaism not allowing the use of a Braille version of the Torah at a Bar/Bat Mitzvah and so forth.

[jrcasselman]

This is not the same thing as discriminating against the members of these faiths. Mind you there are probably many people of these faiths who disagree with the views espoused by their clergy.

[scouseproddyboy]

2) I am well aware that many Orangemen were among the Fathers of Confederation, there were also many Catholics, such as Thomas D'Arcy McGee.

3) I very well may not be here writing to you if James II had won the Battle. My paternal ancestors were Palatinate Germans, who fled Catholic persecution (to England) in 1709 and were given passage to New York State by Queen Anne. Whether or not James II would have granted them the same I cannot say with any confidence.

[scouseproddyboy]

1) I am against the Orange Order because of their anti-Catholicism; even though I do not agree with most Catholic dogma.

[Archielcfb]

COUNTY FLUTE BAND SCOTLAND.

[drgmmd]

These are the parades of peace in Canada unlike all the other promoted groups who parade to protest. Thank the Lord for King William 3rd who fought for EVERYONEs freedom.

[edtheshred007]

geat video... been to canade once and met some great friends for life! love from northern ireland!! no surrender

[jrcasselman]

Total act of hypocrisy. William of Orange had the backing of the Pope when he claimed Britain in 1688

[scouseproddyboy]

the pope only backed william to try and get his hands on the throne of england william knew this and once he sat upon the throne he put through parliament the declaration of rights the first document of its kind giving the common man rights that he NEVER had before and also gave over power from the monarch to the government and that a roman catholic should never sit upon the throne of england thus negating any influence the pope may have gained by controlling the throne in short william

[scouseproddyboy]

was the instigator of governmental rule a system which was subsequently copied by countries across the world HE gave you the right of free speech william was one of the most important men not only in british history but world history THAT is what we celebrate not merely the battle of the boyne but the events afterwards where william confounded the plans of the pope so this is most definitely NOT an act of hypocrisy

[tanusy]

love your video REM 1690 In God We Trust GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

[Dyanver]

Love that Red hand!!!

[runevidgeek2]

Canada supports Ulster!