Pièce Héroïque

[Aufsmaul33]

I agree with jasonc001, but as you might say "arguments please" I did actually prepare something. first i have to say that i do know quite a lot about french organ music in the romanticism (if that's the english word for the epoch where Franck, Dupré, Vierne etc lived). just imagine the title becoming music, it's heroic, so you can say that it could be something like a ballad, telling the story of a hero. and where is his heroicness when every important dissonance is swallowed because of speed?

[hoefje14]

@Aufsmaul33 There might be a point in this, but i.m.h.o. there is no obliged connection between dissonance and the heroic character of a piece. As there is no obliged connection between slow movement and heroism in music. Neverthelesse, as I already stated in one of my first comments, I appreciate quite some slow interpretations of this piece, on the condition that they respect the bigger musical lines of the composition, without feeling obliged to do the same.

[hoefje14]

And, as far as I'm concerned, this doesn't go for Dupré, who in all of his editions of other composers shows a profound misunderstainding and even disrespect for the original intentions of the composers by adapting quite a lot of things to his own rather rigid system of interpretation. This being said, I have the greatest respect for Dupré als an improviser and a composer!

[Aufsmaul33]

@hoefje14 i can assure you that i won't ever tell somebody not to play like he wants to. the most important thing about making music is to like his own, so i just gave my personal opinion :) it might just be easier to accent the dissonances which are giving the really dramatic and heroic sound, but as i just said, that's just what i think

[EccentricRichard]

I'm going to agree that this performance is rather fast... but I don't think that's a problem. I don't think it should go any faster, but this seems fine, to be honest. Also, what an absolutely wonderful organ! Great acoustic too...

[speedstick77]

Oooooh! Excellent playing. The voicing on the instrument is truly stunning. Thank you for sharing!

[pronyma]

I dont know what the original tempo is for this music piece, but i do have heard recordings of it which were much slower. Now I'm not going to argue about which one is better, but i have to say you really managed to accentuate the melancholy, the morbidity and the tormention of this piece.

While it being slowly played it shows more of a heroic piece, but the tempo you were going for really showed the other side of this piece really well!

Keep up the good work!

[jasonc001]

So sad that it's played too rapidly! What's the hurry?

[hoefje14]

Arguments? Please?

[Angultimmarik]

24 is right, much too fast!!!

[hoefje14]

Arguments? Please?

[jeanseborg]

Wonderfull!

[thomy753]

Ik vind het een prachtstuk!

Groetjes, Thomas

[jasonc001]

Too fast. There's no mystery.

[hoefje14]

The choice of the tempo was inspired by the title, which is not "Pièce Mystérieuse" ;-) and the revelation of Franck's original tempo indications for his "6 Pièces", which suggest that Franck preferred faster tempi than what we were used to. Nevertheless, in many circumstances and well played, a slower tempo can be very appropriate and result in a very beautiful version, like the one by Nicholas White which can be found on YouTube.

[smb12321]

I agree about many of the modern recordings of Franck. Some have turned many of his dynamic and groubd-breaking compositions into slow, lumbering pieces meant to evoke some kind of "mystery". CF knew he was ushering in a new wave and I've always thought he'd love to see his works soaring. Great playing

[GJmusique]

Very well put. I like that approach.

[tjugofyra]

Not true! Franck told his students to play this at 82 bpm. Both Tournemire and Dupré had written 82 bpm on their scores! This is good but to fast to get any Heroqiue feeling. Would you marsh in this tempo?

[hoefje14]

No I wouldn't. The title of the piece is not "Marche Héroïque".

[tjugofyra]

You just .. read your comment again!

Franck's students all wrote 82 bpm in their scores. This is much faster. For me it ruins the mysterious and the heroique parts. Otherwise, it's good. A little to heavy registration with to much 16' imop though!

[hoefje14]

In your first reaction, you write that Tournemire and Dupré wrote 82 bpm, in your second reaction that becomes "all of Franck's students". Dupré was not a student of Franck, but of Vierne and Widor, the latter being openly hostile to Franck's ideas about organ playing. Having a look at Duprés Franck edition (Bornemann), one can only have serious doubts about his historical fidelity. Tournemire studied only a few months with Franck at the very end of his life.

[hoefje14]

I can sincerely advise you to read more detailed information about the line Lemmens-Widor-Dupré etc (starting with the magnificent work of Orpha Ochse) to get a clearer view about tradition as opposed to the forming of myths. In no way, this is intended to convince you about my personal ideas, but I'm certain you're going to find it quite interesting .

[tjugofyra]

Well, I know the french very well!

This is obviosly something you don't know much about.

Vierne and tourmire were among many students of Franck. Dupré was a student of vierne. They knew which tempo franck played this at!

Widor was the one who opposited Franck, not Vierne. Vierne took the best in organ playing from them both.

Correction; It is known that some of Franck's students wrote 82 bpm in their scores.

[hoefje14]

Vierne entered the class of César Franck in 1890, the year when Franck deceased. There can be reasonable doubt if two people who have worked only a few months with César Franck, are to be considered as the ultimate cornerstone for the interpretation of his music.

[tjugofyra]

Well, i know for sure that both Tournemire and Dupré wrote 82 bmp, end of discussion! :p

[hoefje14]

I think the discussion doesn't end, but just starts here. I have no doubts of what Dupré and Tournemire wrote on their scores. I can imagine, if I would play the piece at St.-Sulpice or NDP, I would go for their tempo! In the version which is presented here, I put the accent on the tormented side of the character of the piece. Nevertheless, other options are certainly possible, see my comment on Nicholas White's version. Be careful with presenting certain ideas as an unalterable eternal truth.

[monoamiga]

Nooo, I think it's quite well! Piece HEROIQUE and it IS heroique! Very well! Congratulations, very very great performance & registration!!