@lykkebianca Why would they only sell stallions? I was thinking of starting up a preserve and know where I can acquire some stallions, but will need mare eventually
Well, i guess that ur friend must have the Sorraia now, but if not, one place where he can look for is in "Coudelaria Nacional de Alter do Chão". The may horse that they breed is "Alter Real", but they have Sorraia and some Przewalski. I just dont know if they sell tha last one.
barbhorses: as in the other sorraia vide I say to you: to barbhorses: You are NOT correct informed.
Sorraia IS an ancient breed - goes back at least 10.000 years.
It has been 100 % proven by mDNA .
The mDNA prooves that Sorraia is the forefather of the mustang, criollo, lusitano and many more. These breeds has also been mDNA tested - and was positive for Sorraia DNA.
ummm it isnt mDNA it is mT DNA. The mt part stands for mitochondria. It is how the cell produces energy and is ONLY passed down on the mare line. You can have a 99% Draft horse that has an Iberian mtDNA pattern if it is a solid female line bred to Draft studs. mtDNA does not prove anything. You need to speak with Dr. Cothran of Texas A & M. Also you should tell the experts that I got my historical data from that they have a lot to learn from their own field of study.
Who is your historical expert that states the Sorraia is an ancient breed that goes back 10,000 years? Please tell me you have someone that uses something other than color and poorly drawn cave paintings that look more like the Mongolian wild horse to prove their point.
I wouldnt say that the modern day Iberian breeds are ancestors to any American breed unless historically noted (i.e. the Azteca has modern day Iberian horses as an ancestor). Both the American and modern day Iberian types have in common is their ancestors. Both descend from the Spanish Jennet type of horse as well as the Barb. The Iberian horse found in Spain and Portugal is not even close to what was brought to American 500 years ago.
Thank you. We know many mustangs are descended from the Spanish horses introduced in the 1500's. The Sorraia was the major ancestor of the Spanish horse. The Kiger Mustangs discovered in '77 were DNA tested at the U. of Kentucky and in Germany and proven to have the markers of the Sorraia, and are protected by Bureau of Land
What is your historical source for your claim that the Sorraia is a major ancestor to Spanish horses? You do realize that one of the founding stallions of the Sorraia was an Argentine Criollo right? Dr. Bennett lists the Sorraia as modern due to their conformation and lack of history. Who is your source?
you should read the study about sorraia by Dr. Oelke in "sorraia folheto informativo", yuo can find it on the web; specially when he talk about the age of sorraia's genotype A1 (400.000 years ). don't forgive that criollo descends from iberian breeds ; american horses disappeared 10.000 years ago .
and yet Hardy Oelke (or as the Portuguese like to call him, Hardly Okay), is not considered an expert in history or conformation. He does not have the qualifications to make such claims about the Sorraia. You clearly do not know that the Argentine Criollo is influenced by the Thoroughbred, Draft, and Arabian along with his Iberian/Barb beginnings. Also, I have known about Hardy for a long time. He thinks my mare is a lovely "Sorraia" type and also loves her 2005 filly.
like nearly every moderns breeds. this influence is tardive and particulary reserved to produce horses for sport like polo no for the work of "los gauchos" , the authentics criollos.you talk about lack of history , so what about przewalski horses who were discovered in 1800's. you talk about conformation : men selected them to change his conformation as he has done since centuries and indeed has sadly influenced him with others breeds to evit too much inbreeding
use criollo stallion could be to give new blood to the breed, american horses were preserved , have wild caracteristics, and they probably choose it according to the sorraia phenotype; you can't say that any american breed is an ancestor of an historic european breed, who appears in grut's pictures as the Tarpan , it's an historical "aberration".
it's the same if u say that brasilian people are ancestors of português people!
It seems that you have some serious research ahead of you. I am sure that you know that Spain (who at the time controlled Portugal) had HUNDREDS of years of crossbreeding to the Dutch Warmblood (the low land horses), the Thoroughbred, and then the Arabian. The Sorraia has no history past the 1920's and Dr. Andrade's work points the primary reason for his theory on the Sorraia is due to color. Color doesnt prove history. The horses over in American are more pure Iberian than anything in Iberia.
Your comments would also imply that the Iberian horse has not changed since they were imported to the New World. History states that Spain had a Royal decree of crossbreeding to produce a larger and fancier parade mount. The product is our modern day Andalusian (PRE) and Lusitano (PSL). To say that an unknown group of horses managed to escape this crossbreeding is totally unrealistic. The Sorraia is severely inbred. Thus, locking in their type.
i agree with the idea that american wild horses are more pure, but portugal was independant since 1100's (except between 1580 to 1640).
however "los monjes Crtujanos" preserved spanish horses (genêt d'espagne" andalus) from the royal decree this rivality with the king was a problem, he offers napolitan stallions to the "monjes" but they refused to crossbreed their mares! napoleon in 1808 stole many of those pure stallions. of course there were crossbreeding, but aboutsorraia or lusitano
It is reported that the Cartujanos were bred with Percheron sires. That would explain their huge feet and overall size. The original Iberian horse was a small horse. This explains why it is so difficult to make the American Iberian horse types to grow larger. I know that Columbia was searching for a larger mount and were forced to import Lusitanos to get the height! Their small Iberian horses just could not grow taller without help.
you can see that their perfil is more convex than PREspañol, portuguese breeders intents to keep a phenotype similar to the horses of 1600 we can see in pictures. i think that sorraia was the horse of poor people a horse of work, semi wild this can explain why he was relatively preserved from crossbreeding. which poor farmer would pay to cover a mare with an arabian satallion?
Over 500 years I can bet that the Sorraia was crossbred. Their conformation also speaks of their crossbreeding. Also a convex head is normally seen in warmblood type horses. The Iberian/Barb head has a flat forehead and straight to convex muzzle. Look at the Peruvian Paso. This breed has little to no outside influence per historical evidence. Do you see a strongly arched profile in this old Iberian breed? No, you dont. Their heads are smaller and usually straight.
Hi barbhorses or anyone that can help.i am trying to help friend out , she is looking to purchase a sorraia pony, does anyone have any info that i can pass on to her? thank you billy
Gives me goosebumps. Thank you for showing these ancestors to the horses of the Conquest and the forbears of the breeds of the Americas. Amazing that their DNA has been found in some remaining Mustangs on our continent. So the horse returned to the place of its origin.
I am afraid that genetics is not at a point to prove that statement. As far as we know, the Sorraia has no history past the 1920's and saying that they came with the conquest is just a guess. There is not facts to back that up. How do you know that the "Sorraia" mtDNA doesnt go back to a few founding animals of both the Sorraia and the Iberian horses in the Americas?
They are cute except their unusually high croup and small hindquarter for an Iberian horse. No doubt due to Arabian influence. Who knows, not much is known about them past the 1920's and their status as a primitive horse is largely due to their coloring. That is what I gathered after reading Dr. Andrade's account of them. Also of course of the Argentine Criollo influence. They are nice looking save the hindquarter. I prefer a smaller horse.
malgré sa taille le sorraia n'est pas un poney mais un cheval en voie de disparition et qui est à l'origine des races ibériques(lusitano, pure race espagnole).
tres beaux spécimens, merci d'aider à le faire connaître
well - i have an email contact to Antonio Vicente from Portugal. he might know some. and also Antonio DÀndrade. send me an email.
lykkebianca 11 months ago
I know a breeder i germany that sell Sorraia horses. if anyone is interested. They do not sell mares. Only stallions.
lykkebianca 1 year ago
@lykkebianca Why would they only sell stallions? I was thinking of starting up a preserve and know where I can acquire some stallions, but will need mare eventually
annut123 11 months ago
What a stupid way to treat a wild horse...
xor12 1 year ago
lol! Sorraia is a horse, not a ponie!
LusitanoFoal 1 year ago
Hi barbhorses i am trying to help friend out , she is looking to purchase a sorraia pony, do have any info that i can pass on to her? thank you billy
billy6802 3 years ago
Well, i guess that ur friend must have the Sorraia now, but if not, one place where he can look for is in "Coudelaria Nacional de Alter do Chão". The may horse that they breed is "Alter Real", but they have Sorraia and some Przewalski. I just dont know if they sell tha last one.
l23722 2 years ago
in a pasture near my home there is one sorraia foal!
PortugueseHorseLover 3 years ago
i'm from golega!!!
PortugueseHorseLover 3 years ago
barbhorses: as in the other sorraia vide I say to you: to barbhorses: You are NOT correct informed.
Sorraia IS an ancient breed - goes back at least 10.000 years.
It has been 100 % proven by mDNA .
The mDNA prooves that Sorraia is the forefather of the mustang, criollo, lusitano and many more. These breeds has also been mDNA tested - and was positive for Sorraia DNA.
mDNA is always 100 % correct.
you have some history to learn.
lykkebianca 3 years ago
ummm it isnt mDNA it is mT DNA. The mt part stands for mitochondria. It is how the cell produces energy and is ONLY passed down on the mare line. You can have a 99% Draft horse that has an Iberian mtDNA pattern if it is a solid female line bred to Draft studs. mtDNA does not prove anything. You need to speak with Dr. Cothran of Texas A & M. Also you should tell the experts that I got my historical data from that they have a lot to learn from their own field of study.
barbhorses 3 years ago
Who is your historical expert that states the Sorraia is an ancient breed that goes back 10,000 years? Please tell me you have someone that uses something other than color and poorly drawn cave paintings that look more like the Mongolian wild horse to prove their point.
barbhorses 3 years ago
@lykkebianca
You are completely right, I´m just not sure about the 10.000 year episode...
Some people get annoyed about facts and can´t produce any contra evidence, except their raw opinion as you are experimenting now.
I´m on your side and Zebro Valley Refugee is another excellent opportunity to visit these wild horses on their environment.
xor12 1 year ago
I wouldnt say that the modern day Iberian breeds are ancestors to any American breed unless historically noted (i.e. the Azteca has modern day Iberian horses as an ancestor). Both the American and modern day Iberian types have in common is their ancestors. Both descend from the Spanish Jennet type of horse as well as the Barb. The Iberian horse found in Spain and Portugal is not even close to what was brought to American 500 years ago.
barbhorses 3 years ago
i agree. i m reading the study of jansen : "phylogenetic jansen network" to know more.
it's in english so it's a bit difficult for to understand everything.
i think that most of domestic breeds are a melting pot, it's an obviousness with breeds like "selle français" or "holstein"
JoaoGer 3 years ago
"sorraia folheto informativo" no internet para mais informaçao a proposito da raça em europa e em america (sorraia mustang)
JoaoGer 3 years ago
Thank you. We know many mustangs are descended from the Spanish horses introduced in the 1500's. The Sorraia was the major ancestor of the Spanish horse. The Kiger Mustangs discovered in '77 were DNA tested at the U. of Kentucky and in Germany and proven to have the markers of the Sorraia, and are protected by Bureau of Land
Management.
alydar42 3 years ago
What is your historical source for your claim that the Sorraia is a major ancestor to Spanish horses? You do realize that one of the founding stallions of the Sorraia was an Argentine Criollo right? Dr. Bennett lists the Sorraia as modern due to their conformation and lack of history. Who is your source?
barbhorses 3 years ago
you should read the study about sorraia by Dr. Oelke in "sorraia folheto informativo", yuo can find it on the web; specially when he talk about the age of sorraia's genotype A1 (400.000 years ). don't forgive that criollo descends from iberian breeds ; american horses disappeared 10.000 years ago .
JoaoGer 3 years ago
and yet Hardy Oelke (or as the Portuguese like to call him, Hardly Okay), is not considered an expert in history or conformation. He does not have the qualifications to make such claims about the Sorraia. You clearly do not know that the Argentine Criollo is influenced by the Thoroughbred, Draft, and Arabian along with his Iberian/Barb beginnings. Also, I have known about Hardy for a long time. He thinks my mare is a lovely "Sorraia" type and also loves her 2005 filly.
barbhorses 3 years ago
like nearly every moderns breeds. this influence is tardive and particulary reserved to produce horses for sport like polo no for the work of "los gauchos" , the authentics criollos.you talk about lack of history , so what about przewalski horses who were discovered in 1800's. you talk about conformation : men selected them to change his conformation as he has done since centuries and indeed has sadly influenced him with others breeds to evit too much inbreeding
JoaoGer 3 years ago
use criollo stallion could be to give new blood to the breed, american horses were preserved , have wild caracteristics, and they probably choose it according to the sorraia phenotype; you can't say that any american breed is an ancestor of an historic european breed, who appears in grut's pictures as the Tarpan , it's an historical "aberration".
it's the same if u say that brasilian people are ancestors of português people!
JoaoGer 3 years ago
It seems that you have some serious research ahead of you. I am sure that you know that Spain (who at the time controlled Portugal) had HUNDREDS of years of crossbreeding to the Dutch Warmblood (the low land horses), the Thoroughbred, and then the Arabian. The Sorraia has no history past the 1920's and Dr. Andrade's work points the primary reason for his theory on the Sorraia is due to color. Color doesnt prove history. The horses over in American are more pure Iberian than anything in Iberia.
barbhorses 3 years ago
Your comments would also imply that the Iberian horse has not changed since they were imported to the New World. History states that Spain had a Royal decree of crossbreeding to produce a larger and fancier parade mount. The product is our modern day Andalusian (PRE) and Lusitano (PSL). To say that an unknown group of horses managed to escape this crossbreeding is totally unrealistic. The Sorraia is severely inbred. Thus, locking in their type.
barbhorses 3 years ago
i agree with the idea that american wild horses are more pure, but portugal was independant since 1100's (except between 1580 to 1640).
however "los monjes Crtujanos" preserved spanish horses (genêt d'espagne" andalus) from the royal decree this rivality with the king was a problem, he offers napolitan stallions to the "monjes" but they refused to crossbreed their mares! napoleon in 1808 stole many of those pure stallions. of course there were crossbreeding, but aboutsorraia or lusitano
JoaoGer 3 years ago
It is reported that the Cartujanos were bred with Percheron sires. That would explain their huge feet and overall size. The original Iberian horse was a small horse. This explains why it is so difficult to make the American Iberian horse types to grow larger. I know that Columbia was searching for a larger mount and were forced to import Lusitanos to get the height! Their small Iberian horses just could not grow taller without help.
barbhorses 3 years ago
you can see that their perfil is more convex than PREspañol, portuguese breeders intents to keep a phenotype similar to the horses of 1600 we can see in pictures. i think that sorraia was the horse of poor people a horse of work, semi wild this can explain why he was relatively preserved from crossbreeding. which poor farmer would pay to cover a mare with an arabian satallion?
JoaoGer 3 years ago
Over 500 years I can bet that the Sorraia was crossbred. Their conformation also speaks of their crossbreeding. Also a convex head is normally seen in warmblood type horses. The Iberian/Barb head has a flat forehead and straight to convex muzzle. Look at the Peruvian Paso. This breed has little to no outside influence per historical evidence. Do you see a strongly arched profile in this old Iberian breed? No, you dont. Their heads are smaller and usually straight.
barbhorses 3 years ago
Hi barbhorses or anyone that can help.i am trying to help friend out , she is looking to purchase a sorraia pony, does anyone have any info that i can pass on to her? thank you billy
billy6802 3 years ago
Gives me goosebumps. Thank you for showing these ancestors to the horses of the Conquest and the forbears of the breeds of the Americas. Amazing that their DNA has been found in some remaining Mustangs on our continent. So the horse returned to the place of its origin.
alydar42 4 years ago
I am afraid that genetics is not at a point to prove that statement. As far as we know, the Sorraia has no history past the 1920's and saying that they came with the conquest is just a guess. There is not facts to back that up. How do you know that the "Sorraia" mtDNA doesnt go back to a few founding animals of both the Sorraia and the Iberian horses in the Americas?
barbhorses 3 years ago
They are cute except their unusually high croup and small hindquarter for an Iberian horse. No doubt due to Arabian influence. Who knows, not much is known about them past the 1920's and their status as a primitive horse is largely due to their coloring. That is what I gathered after reading Dr. Andrade's account of them. Also of course of the Argentine Criollo influence. They are nice looking save the hindquarter. I prefer a smaller horse.
barbhorses 4 years ago
very beautiful . I did not see them this year.
They are small horses - not ponys.
lykkebianca 4 years ago
Thank-you for pointing that out :-)
Anakan831 4 years ago
malgré sa taille le sorraia n'est pas un poney mais un cheval en voie de disparition et qui est à l'origine des races ibériques(lusitano, pure race espagnole).
tres beaux spécimens, merci d'aider à le faire connaître
JoaoGer 4 years ago
They're very beautiful.
HorseGurl010 4 years ago