Nihilism is beautiful, is only when you understand you are not especial, you got no meaning niether purpuse than you can say SO WHAT!? and still live, just to live, the good and the bad, the nice and the disgusting, the up's and downs, without worring all your bloody life if what your doing has importance instead of just enjoying
@EveryBodySucks100 It is my philsophical position, if you will, that we choose our own purposes. If you choose to hold no obligation to others, and to merely enjoy life for yourself at its fullest, then that's your purpose. Nobody assigns it to you.
@GrapplingIgnorance Yeah i know, just wanted to talk about it, about the video i've been in a recent discusion with members of a church in my country (a friend made me fall into the discusion :( i often preffer avoiding that circumstance) , and kinda learn your lesson by the hard way, the funny thing is that is ok when they lose they're mind, but if you freak out just a little, you're been unrational and stupid...
Fairly Buddhist---knowing THE truth (reality), but also knowing that others think THEIR truth is true. Buddhism IS NOT 'worshiping (any) Buddha' ("all humans possess the Buddha-nature"), it's "being enlightened" (Sanskrit /budd/). At root, I am an Agnostic. That is, 'I know there's stuff I can never possibly "know."' To Christians, I would quote 'God,' who said "My reasons are not your reasons" (and I've seen no evidence (not even in THE REST of their fairy-tales) to show that that's changed).
i tend to think that atheists as well as Christians do this sort of thing. Instead of getting to know someone, what they think and why, people tend to assume. As a Christian, I prefer to get to know someone and their thoughts. After all, I might learn something from them, as I hope they might from me. Only when we dialog from truth and honesty can we ever learn.
Most religious people are religious simply because they were raised that way. Treating moderate religious people with patience and simple, easy, kind logic really is the best way to get them to understand and hopefully accept your points of view. Kudos for this video.
@MightyMikeT Tell that to every atheist on their planet were believers at one time, but changed their minds when they had better evidence presented to them. Some examples you might recognize from youtube include: Dusty Smith, Matt Dillahunty, ProportionalResponse, and me.
@GrapplingIgnorance yes yes.... My only point is I've heard the line Atheists should use the 'soft' approach and disagree. Atheists should use whatever approach they feel like. I'm just glad they are open and speaking out. I will stick with the approach that suits me.,
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson
@MightyMikeT The fact that Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson said things doesn't make them true. I am fond of both of them, but that doesn't mean that any quote by them equates to reality. I especially disagree wit this one by T.J. To say that ridicule is the ONLY way to disarm propositions that lack intelligence is painfully wrong. Being civil and educational is not only an alternate method, but in my experience a far more successful one.
@GrapplingIgnorance I'm sorry but I wanted to see where this sits exactly. Ridicule may be a small part of a earnest way of dispelling unintelligible propositions. I suppose the only source I'd like to mention is the idea of the IPH, and more importantly because it emphasizes the point, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and it's associated website.
@GrapplingIgnorance The ridicule found here, although like your video points out is sometimes callous, it provides the perfect stepping stone for someone to pinpoint the unintelligible parts of their own propositions. No idea is above ridicule or scrutiny, but ridicule and scrutiny must not be used to bully someone from a position, or we're no better than self-centered theists who use the same methods of social exclusion.
You are misunderstanding the Thomas Jefferson quote. He wasn't talking about "propositions that lack intelligence". He was talking about propositions that are "unintelligible", that is, that lack any distinct meaning that can actually be addressed. Like, for example, the trinity.
Very good video, I admit I have definitely let my waning of patience for theists get the better of me without realizing that I was only making things worse. But not anymore now that you opened my eyes to how harmful such an attitude is.
@f4rtg34ji Because if you wish to convince them that their position is irrational, scorn is only going to broaden the gap between them and that rational position. You're advocating being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
@f4rtg34ji I don't respect religions, but i do respect people as humans with the right to disagree with me. I also consider it unfair to cast a consequential shadow over all theists because of the behavior of the worst among them.
Last Sunday a preacher interupted me while I was having my lunch. First the door bell rang, I didn't answer it, then a knock on the door. I opened the door, he told me he was a preacher, I stopped him right there. I informed him he was on private property, signs were clearly posted "NO SOLICITING", he said he wasn't selling anything, I said you are selling religion, now get the hell off the property, now, or I'm calling the police...he took his partner in crime and left...I have no patience.
The time of special privileges and deference for religion is over.
You think atheists, scientists and philosophers are abrasive now? This is just the beginning. We have thousands of years of abuse, ridicule, sarcasm, insults, mockery. blasphemy, sacrilege, cartoons, and oh yes, FACTS, ahead of us.
Dawkins uses reason, logic, evidence and rationality to make his points, and is called arrogant.
Religious freaks read a book, claim Divine Knowledge, and are somehow humble and not arrogant. LMFAOFFE.
@beesleeper Do religions deserve to be mocked and ridiculed for their combination of arrogance and ignorance? YES. Would that be the most effective and efficient means of achieving progress and understanding? I'm afraid not.
No patronizing. It's just...who has the goal of "progress and understanding" ? Religious freaks certainly don't. But if you want to try to persuade them to reason, live it up.
Finally someone pointed this out. I so hate people that are just rude when trying to convince others. and mostly Atheists.. we should be the one who listen to reason and not jumping on conclusion. If you have nothing to add just rude words then keep them.
Well said. What a lot of people don't realize is that being abrasive towards those other people only serves to make them dig in and cling to their beliefs even more.
As a school teacher, you have a lot of experience and education in being patient with people (in this case, children) who would disagree with you. Unfortunately the majority of us don't have that same education and need to be reminded that insulting someone makes them more likely to disagree with you than to agree.
This is why you rock. I actually am perturbed by Hitchens because he seems to assume theists are stupid. Those of us raised Christian, and who have Christian friends and family, we know better--and we should act like it.
you seem like a very reasonable atheist, and although you hide your face i have reasons to believe that you're honest. I hope that your shrewd words won't fall on deaf ears and help to bring about a sincere discussion bereft of condescending insults and idiotic tantrums. peace
What ever, theist are by medical definition mentally ill, meeting the full criteria for a delusional disorder and usually most of the criteria for skitzophrenia
Well said. It wasn't the abrasiveness of Dawkins or Hitchens that caused my de-conversion, but the calm demonstration of the absurdities that I once thought were true.
@Essa0601 I'm so sorry. I think it is so much harder 4 former muslims then former christians. I hope u hav found a support system of friends, either where u r or on the net. good luck :)
well said and I agree. There is no point is becoming the very hard-headed, stubborn fundamentalist people that you, as an atheist, are trying to have a debate with.
If you are going to act like them, whats the difference
I would whole-heartedly agree to strain cordiality and pleasantness in debate...if it would actually work. But, you forget that you are combating a mental virus--theists have not been persuaded, they have been brainwashed. Some may be amenable to reason, but in that case, the niceties won't matter. Ridicule is a good option for making sure dumbasses know they're dumbasses. They unfortunately swing with a larger voice more than a reasonable one.
@CrazySatanicInfidel Yeah, I dealt with a megaphone-carrying "everyone is going to hell" street preacher today, and you can't deal with their mean-spirited asshole shit. They scream at you at the top of their lungs, with red faces, bulging veins and bulging eyes telling you how much God hates you and how you're going to burn in HELL FOREVER. All I can do is tell them the truth, Phyllis the Pink Unicorn is their true Lord and Savior and if they don't accept it they should be put to death.
@CrazySatanicInfidel some people actually start truth seeking later in life. they're hungry for it cuz they realize the book they havn't read in 4ever, didn't make any sense then in the context of science now. I was persuaded by many documentaries on national geographic 2 take a hard look @ y I believed. and I realized that I didn't, and hadn't 4 a while. I live my life the same way I did then, only i accept myself 4 bein gay, stopped the self-destructive behavior, and am @ peace
thank you for saying this, I hope people take note and do it, or at least try to, I understand it can be hard. even when its a new person if you just get out of an argument with someone else over it its hard not to just continue with the new person as if it was the other.
A lot of us were theists at one point. I agree with you completely. If an atheist had presented his case to me in a rude and caustic manner, I would have been much more likely to try to defend myself rather than take a close look at what was being said.
You can't change a stupid person's mind. Whether you are nice or nasty, they lock down their mind like a stubborn child. In fact, its much harder being nice, because you have to spend so much time holding their hand, explaining the same points over and over and over again...and at the end, they usually say 'well, I just believe what I believe.' Or worse, They become angry that you have popped their bubble. Might as well have some fun and get some PWNage in.
@Sav3TheWorld It's unfair to treat people who may be open minded but unfamiliar with the subject like stubborn and stupid people, just because of their beliefs. You can get abrasive after you've confirmed your suspicion of their stubbornness.
@GrapplingIgnorance oopsy, a malfunction at my end, no need for concern. you make some fine points. my aim is to get them while there young , without being dogmatic, encourage freethought amoungst the religious young.
@Sav3TheWorld Maybe you're not the right person as an initiator of the theist conversation. You seem to be more appropriate for piling on once it is determined that the religious person will no longer listen to or partake in rational thinking but still wants to argue his position.
Well said, my friend. And you are correct when you say it is difficult to start from a blank slate. But, THAT is exactly what is required. Our goals would be better served to listen, and attempt to create interest about our beliefs with our audience.
I also try and remember that most of the time the person you are arguing with, will not change their minds. It's the people who are reading, and watching who might.
Even if one person learns something, then you succeeded. Although still, it is hard not to curse people out sometimes. It really depends on who I am talking to.
Also, sometimes people mistake kindness for weakness. How does one avoid that? I tend to look at the entire body of the post and ignore the insults for the most part.
I swear youtube atheists and right wing "christian" fundamentalists are made for eachother. They both love to troll and spam videos with the same unoriginal arguments. One misrepresents God and the teachings of Jesus by doing things like hating on gays and the other misrepresents science by acting as if it can support an their OPINION about something that exists outside of science.
That 'something' exists outside of science is just YOUR opinion as well, a sortof deistic god can fit that idea. However, most christians like to think their god actually interacts with the world, and it is therefore NOT outside of science.
Since there is no known scientific evidence for such a god, it seems atheists are well within reason to assert that science supports their lack of belief in gods.
"misrepresents science by acting as if it can support an their OPINION about something that exists outside of science."
Both science and religion are opinion.
One is an opinion based upon tradition, the other an opinion based on a methodology of evidence.
If you begin by defining the attributes that a deity is required by doctrine to have, it is possible to disprove specific aspects of that deity which indeed, redefines that deity as significantly fictional.
@Jonisdaman Good work. You've shown you can troll a video and misrepresent, hypocrite. Your holier than thou Christian attitude shines through, making you a "Christian Moderate". Hating on out-groups is the most common attribute of a theist, to deny it is misrepresentation. To deny the bible supports hating on gays is misrepresentation. To say that god exists anywhere besides your imagination is unsupported by any evidence, and any god who actually cared about us believing would give evidence.
@renegade4dio and you must be the youtube atheist. I can tell by how little you know about the christian faith you feel so free to judge. If you knew anything about it you'd know I'm not a christian because I think I'm "holier than thou" quite the opposite I think I'm so unholy I need thou. lol We follow the teachings of Jesus, a great man who never hated on gays or anyone else. why would there be any "evidence" for God in the E=mc2 space time format he created. wouldn't that make him not God?
@Jonisdaman Unsurprisingly, you again fail. First, I was raised as a christian. The difference between you and I is that when I was a teen, I began to study my beliefs is depth. I studied the bible, which I quickly found to be a disgusting book full of the most depraved acts I'd ever read. More importantly, you ignored the point: You were trolling a video misrepresenting atheists AND christianity while whining about others doing it. Hypocrite.
@Jonisdaman Furthermore, whether Jesus was a good person or even existed at all is beside the point. He, depending on your interpretation, either was the evil deity of the old testament, or at least represented it. He specifically did NOT "abolish" the old testament. See Matt 5:17. The old testament prescribes stoning for gays. See Lev 20:13. Hence, Jesus supported stoning of gays. Even you clearly think stoning gays would be wrong. Why do you want to worship something you think is wrong?
@Jonisdaman And finally, a quick comment on "Fundamentalists" and "Christian Moderates": Fred Phelps knows the bible way better than you do, and is much truer to the actual scripture than any moderate apologist. Go ahead, argue the scripture with him or people like him and discover that fact for yourself. Before attempting to troll atheists, you might consider getting a scripture lesson from the people who spend hours every day studying it, no matter how dirty they make you feel.
I certainly understand the need to be patient with theists who haven't had much experience with the theological debates but after hearing the same arguments hundreds of times it gets old and I get short on temper. That said, I am always courteous in person when debating the subject.
@GrapplingIgnorance My apologies, I made the post in haste. I mostly just don't have the patients for people like that anymore. I was just being stubborn.
@H01001000 Nihilism, at least in the psychological meaning, is considered a condition. I dont know if nihilism exists in any other, "lighter" sense, but the psychological term refers to a state of varying degrees of delusions of grandeur, of selfimportance and so on, and makes you liable to be a social catastrophe. So thats one part of it. Another part of it is that a modicum of humbleness is considered a virtue in our society. You shouldn't boast or overstate your achievements, importance etc.
@H01001000 I didn't pass any judgement on nihilists here- I just don't like when people assume I believe in nothing at all just because I don't believe in God.
Trying to pretend there is a one size fits all method of arguing with theist is a result for failure and shows a lack of understanding of the situation. If you go around saying there is a right and wrong way to approach the situation, then you should rethink your views. You're doing a disservice to the people who NEED someone to mock them in order to understand. I was one of those theist. Just because you prefer one method does not make it THE right method.
@grappling well.... it takes all kinds. The most important thing is being out. Soft or Hard its a persons choice. Like the gays, can you see which activists are doing it the way you prefer? We have to defend separtion of church and state.
And ill express myself against their baseless insults. And I won't be nice about it
@grappling well.... it takes all kinds. The most important thing is being out. Soft or Hard its a persons choice. Like the gays, can you see which activists are doing it the way you prefer? We have to defend separtion of church and state.
And ill express myself against their baseless insults. And I won't be nice about it
I'm a Nihilist. I also don't care what people think about me or why I am like I am. I just don't have the time and energy to tell someone I'm not "mad at god". I doubt any religious person will be won over by any kind of argument or reasoning. They'll figure it out on their own... Or not.
Either way I don't care. For now I'm content to watch them make ridiculous statements and embarrass themselves.
When I was young I touched the heating element on the stove because I didn't know any better. Based on the pain that followed, I drew conclusions from experience (but not interactions with others) that it was a bad idea to do it again. And I never have. I figured it out all on my own :)
I have similar reasons for not being religious. but I relied on previous knowledge other people had for researching actual answers. so yes, however interactions with others was not part of it.
Brilliantly put. Like the tit-for-tat program and well, just basic ethics, you have to give the other person the opportunity to fuck up rather than assuming they will. It's like trust. If I go around asking everyone to prove their trustworthiness before trusting them, I'll never trust anyone. You have to extend some trust and be aware that your trust might be misplaced to see if people can be trusted. It's unfair to assume every theist is automatically an arsehole. It's kinda bigoted actually.
Encourage enough cognitive dissonance with their mindset that they receive less dissonance with an alternative and take the path of least resistance? The conversion process ought to work both ways, but some people might seek out and resist dissonance and call it faith.
Another problem is translation between different mindsets. Consider "utility"; a religious and non-religious person could have very different interpretations of satisfation with correspondingly different measures
Unfortunately, the carrot of heaven and the stick of hell (or their equivalents) can convince many to act against their best interest, but I agree, it's mostly a matter of being patient, listening and understanding how people think and explaining concepts in terms they can understand. We are surrounded by science and are alive because of it in many cases
I like that that quote!
Faith, or wishes need a physical embodiment to have power. Like a virus. Prayer by itself is dead.
But wishes that don't accord with reality don't happen. I don't think it's possible to have faith as much as a mustard seed - the words are all english, but the sentence doesn't make sense and is devoid of meaning.
When prayer restores an amputated limb, I'll listen and think again. Until then, it's just hope taken well beyond the brink of delusion.
Actually it does... The average mustard seed has a mass of around 0.02g. If 0.02g of mass were converted to its equivalent energy, it would be roughly the same as the chemical energy released by 43 tons of TNT... Which BTW is nothing like the energy required to move a mountain.
.
The point being that if you have faith enough to move a mountain, you would still have to call toast a metaphor before prayer could produce it.
I'm not disputing the mass>energy conversion of a mustard seed.
But how can one weigh faith? To talk of having as much faith as a mustard seed it like talking about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. These phrases can be parsed but they don't make any sense. They are category errors; faith has no weight, angels take up no space.
Toast can be a metaphor, you just need to decide what for...it's also a nice snack though and I prefer to focus on practicalities ;-)
Atheists trend toward being rational and generally are more responsible, limit the size or their families to those they can afford and tend to have a lower birth rate... and yet, the atheist population in the US has doubled over 10 years, where the general population has a doubling time 6-7 times longer.
So, we are coming from somewhere other than being raised without belief.
I've helped 6 secular christians find a path to reason.
@DeathofSpeech Good work, some of us didn't achieve that much. I showed the irrationality of their beliefs to only 2 christians, but I consider it to be an achievement, not only by me, but by them. Trying can end in failure. Not trying will never end in anything else.
Exactly... They have a traditional role that their family and peers expect of them.
They fear disappointing those other people.
As they come in contact with people who present them not merely with reasonable arguments, but no not abuse them for just sort of following along because it is what everyone else in the family did, they realize that their fear of rejection, is less important...
... there is a huge difference between the statements, "You're crazy for believing that bronze-age crap," vs. "You aren't crazy if you don't believe something that isn't evident."
One gets you an argument based on an emotionally defensive position, and the other gets you a conversation... maybe.
@TheIntolerantAtheist typical liberal fascist, loves to complain about other people yet can't take it when people call him on it. Liberals LOVE to play footsies with the militant homosexual mafia and radical Islam, yet when you mention Christianity or when Christians mention any of their dear lovers, liberals get all bent out of shape. Liberals like you LOVE radical Islam. You hate America and the Christianity it came from, therefore, when you see the twin towers fall you're filled with glee.
@TheIntolerantAtheist Tell me something I should care about you filthy vermin. Go die of AIDS already you filthy piece of shit. The reason you liberals aren't ever going to gain control of my country thank God is because you can't stop dying of AIDS. Every one of you filthy scumbags should be taken out and shot in the head, and in 2012 when we take control I'll be glad to see it happen. Good day to you, sir.
@IAmHotize ''The reason you liberals aren't ever going to gain control of my country thank God is because you can't stop dying of AIDS.'' What the fuck... Go seek help you freaking crazy bastard,
@TheIntolerantAtheist So you're a sick, pedophile child molester perv. I'm calling the police on you, sick fucking freak bastard. I hope you rot in prison. That figures from liberal scumbags like you. All liberals are nigger scumbags who like free money from their nigger president Obama. Continue destroying out once great nation with your liberal ignorance. In 2012 we'll take control and we'll probably put every one of you idiots to death. Fucking idiot.
@IAmHotize Yes, us liberals are the fascists. You support your braindead leader Sarah Palin who fired the Librarian in Wausilla as Mayor because this librarian would remove books by Richard Dawkins or Harry Potter books, and we're the fucking fascists. Christian Dominionists like you want to see homosexuals stoned to death and then claim your religion is less barbaric than Islam. Idiots like you are the reason so many gay kids commit suicide, and I'm sure you're glad about that.
@TheIntolerantAtheist I have come to the conclusion that Conservatives are fascist and liberals are socialist. Thus why I have resolved to avoid all political parties and ideological denominations of those parties. After all the founding fathers didn't want there to be political parties.
You're a jackass. If an atheist is more against Christians than Muslims it's only because they have to deal with Christians more. Of course disliking(or hating as you put it) Christians automatically means you hate America. I bet you watch Glenn Beck don't you? Also Militant homosexual mafia? WTF? I've never even heard of such a thing before your post.
"him: a vicious, heartless monster, and feel good about it."
I have a morality quiz that quickly separates the rational/secular theists from the loony fringe.
"If god told you to take your neighbor's house because you deserved it more, and that you should kill everyone in the house... would you cut up the children with a sword as god commanded?"
"If your friend came to you and told you god had commanded him to do this, would you call the cops or join him?" Yes/No question
"America passes unconstitutional laws banning Islam because Christians decide that it's not really a religion, as their stupid religion claims, it must be defended constitutionally."
The wonderful thing about our Constitution is that it allows for things to go wrong... We find laws to be unjust with time and correct the mistake.
The bad thing about that is that it can often take a lifetime for a law to be overturned.
"Christians don't believe in free speech." Fundies don't, secular religious do, though to their discomfort at times.
It's an irony that the bible was never written for the masses but for the priests eyes alone.
It was the Gutenberg Press that made it practical to publish it, adopted not to promote knowledge and free speech, but for material gain for the task of printing indulgences.
Then used (secretly) to also publish works of sedition (Luther and Galileo).
"RealCatholicTV believes only righteous Catholics should have the right to vote "
Precisely the reason that the Nazi Party became the official church of Germany...
If you were a party member, you defined your political, and your religious position all in one package... because they were one and the same... Rather like what the fundies are pushing.
The official religion became the party, and the church became regulated by the party.
My response to claims that homosexuality or whatever else is the flavor of the day, is destroying the church is usually something like, "I had no idea that destroying the church was that easy."
Wow... dead birds, frogs, fish, tornados, earthquake, tsunami... Apparently gays have all the powers of god.
What we have here is a small noisy minority and a majority that don't want the drama, and can't take them seriously.
Pretty much the same as early 20th century Germany.
...to those who believe that dealing with these people isn't worth the effort... Silence is the balance of the equation required before the loonies can rise to power.
@DeathofSpeech I fear what will happen when the irrational right gains control in 2012. They want no taxes, the churches to take charge of education and they believe the earth is 6,000 years old and global warming is liberal propaganda. These are not rational human beings. They call liberals filthy vermin and nazis and then speak about laws to stone then to death.
"so he whines about liberals as Nazi's censoring freedom of speech"
Actually, that was what the Volks Movement whined about... and why Hitler railed against the secularity of the christian churches...
...and how the Nazi party rose to power out of the Evangelical Protestant Movement.
Emmanuel Hirsch was the German Pat Robertson of the day, and the primary source of much of Hitler's ideology. Mien Kampf is filled with quotes and paraphrases of Hirsch.
@TheOptimistPrime it does not matter what SOME atheists say here on YouTube that does not mean we all do. which is what you said. and there you go getting your self you have now said that christians do it to.p
"I believe in a non-religious" " Jesus said the kingdom of heaven cometh not with -"
if you are non religious you cannot quote scripture to validate your view. and
" I see valid points from both atheists and Christians"
@TheOptimistPrime good job you noticed you were proven wrong. however bad choice in then ignoring everything you said and everything i said. you showed your self wrong by not being able to defend yourself
@TheOptimistPrime we should just let them persist in this. sure as long as it stays with them. keep it out of my life keep it out of government keep it out of jobs and keep it the fuck out of schools!!!
truth is a key point in life yet you are advocating for us to allow them to lie to themselves?
and atheists do not "often" refer you can also not generalize us all by one standard you cooked up in your head! ever think there is more than one atheist?!?!?!?!?1
Well done mate, an important and eloquent video that all atheists should watch. I agree with your viewpoint and with those who have found it difficult to persevere with kindness in the face of agressive intolerance. Often, when I urge a theist to question a given doctrine in a totally innocuous way, I am met with belligerence. They perceive this as an attack on their faith and start with the old Christian threats of hell-fire. At that point I know there's no possibility for honest debate. Shame.
It's hard to not be abrasive. I sometimes fail. When someone walks to you and says "I have a strong feeling that there's something beyond death." I just had to say "I have a strong feeling I'm gonna win the lottery today, but feelings are for losers."
When a christian's best argument is "I'll break every bone in your body" you kinda lose interest in trying to convince them.
Well said sir, and you're surrounded by oppressive theists; hence the change of account names, identity hiding, and no more Cleatus :( I'm sure Ghandi would have been proud of your patients and tenacity. Hopefully the world will one day be free of religious oppression. Sure, people have the right to believe in the fae, dragons, sky daddies or anything else they want; provided their rights end where non-believers' rights begin :)
Very good point. I think this is also good advice for the outspoken theist. Nothing is more annoying than when someone is completely arrogant about their position and completely ignorant of yours.
I completely agree. I've complained about this quite a bit myself. So many do that sort of thing. So many also have fairly week arguments. Far too many have no understanding of anything but empiricism. There is also this overuse of throwing negatives from the bible at the theist, which does nothing to show why believing in gods is such a silly idea. Getting back to your main point, continuous ad hominem is something else I see from far to many fellow atheists, who should know better.
I know you're right but its tough sometimes. Today I posted a few bible quotes on a friend of mines Facebook. She never read the damn book but is one of those cherry pickers. She deleted the thread, but I'm sure I probably scared the hell out of her showing her Elishas resurrections and bear massacres.
That's how I deconverted my b/f by asking him questions and giving him room to actually think about it/ I think most logical people once question either will have to go the bat shit crazy path or go down logic way.
Excellent. I had a chance encounter with a fundy this weekend, but it took a while to figure it out because I was attempting the slow-knife method that you describe. I kept asking subtle and innocent sounding questions, and was continually shocked that she was reliable more crazy than I suspected. When she eventually was stumped, I just quietly let it sink in. I hope she is thinking of me, and hasn't wiped the whole episode from memory.
I think I agree. I have noticed that when I argue, or at least begin to argue, with theists who don't debate this at all, they get annoyed and quickly stop and lose all interest in continuing the discussion/debate.
So what then, tiptoe around their feelings? To many of these people any mention of your atheism for any reason ever is a strident assault on their belief system.
Some people will never know reason or logic. They must be chastised, berated and humiliated back under the rock whence their crooked belief system crawled.
I disagree with you, but I do so humbly as you are the only person to seriously challenge my axe-wielding atheist philosophy.
I was having a religious conversation on FB, when the Christian suddenly accused me of being angry, when I was just putting forth ideas. When I asked why I was appearing angry, the response was, "Love you, buddy." I asked again, and got ignored again.
I shut down before I got angry, but people like her piss me off. :)
I totally agree mate, I myself have lost patience quite a few times and 'given it' to a theist. Yet, it never convinces them of anything but the cleverly constructed stereotypes of 'angry atheism'; which are designed to show a frustrated and bewildered rationalist as 'angry at god'.
Also, I think many on youtube are just jumping on the Atheism bandwagon (without really knowing the arguments), just to release their anger on others. These 'trendy Atheists' are really making us look bad!
i have started asking questions to find out stuff like are they Yecs, can they see if they are wrong (if no then i tell them to have a nice day and hope that in the future they will find out why it is ok to be wrong) and try to be nice and just tell them Gandalf told us you shall not pass when they quote the bible after we agree that that wont work at all i find that helps my case to know what they think and to try to be polite
I respectfully disagree, not with all of your points, but specifically giving wide latitudes to the opposition. I have a friend that is a Christian and he is not prep'ed for such conversations. Nevertheless, he will still quote points that I and others have already debunked. At that point I burn him.
For me it just depends on who I am talking to and how they present themselves.
If for example they immediately start proclaiming that Atheism is a religion, start putting words in my mouth and that I am in it just for the sin then I will not have much patience for it.
You are right about this. I was a Christian who was in my late 50's when I first heard anything contrary to what I had been taught as a *believer*. Living in the midsouth, I had never personally met an atheist and regarded them with horror.But it was on youtube that I did meet them. I was treated with patience by most atheists I spoke with, and they simply had the better answers.The reason I started asking questions was because I finally read the bible that I had been *studying* for 40 years!!
I truly want fellow atheists to follow your advice!
Getting your discussion partner into a defence position is not a great thing if you want your ideas to come across. Rather make themselves question the text of the bible or the "credo" .
Nihilism is beautiful, is only when you understand you are not especial, you got no meaning niether purpuse than you can say SO WHAT!? and still live, just to live, the good and the bad, the nice and the disgusting, the up's and downs, without worring all your bloody life if what your doing has importance instead of just enjoying
EveryBodySucks100 1 month ago
@EveryBodySucks100 It is my philsophical position, if you will, that we choose our own purposes. If you choose to hold no obligation to others, and to merely enjoy life for yourself at its fullest, then that's your purpose. Nobody assigns it to you.
GrapplingIgnorance 1 month ago
@GrapplingIgnorance Yeah i know, just wanted to talk about it, about the video i've been in a recent discusion with members of a church in my country (a friend made me fall into the discusion :( i often preffer avoiding that circumstance) , and kinda learn your lesson by the hard way, the funny thing is that is ok when they lose they're mind, but if you freak out just a little, you're been unrational and stupid...
EveryBodySucks100 1 month ago
Too right!
UrukEngineer 5 months ago
Comment removed
MrLineriderguy 5 months ago
Fairly Buddhist---knowing THE truth (reality), but also knowing that others think THEIR truth is true. Buddhism IS NOT 'worshiping (any) Buddha' ("all humans possess the Buddha-nature"), it's "being enlightened" (Sanskrit /budd/). At root, I am an Agnostic. That is, 'I know there's stuff I can never possibly "know."' To Christians, I would quote 'God,' who said "My reasons are not your reasons" (and I've seen no evidence (not even in THE REST of their fairy-tales) to show that that's changed).
mythmanjay 5 months ago
i tend to think that atheists as well as Christians do this sort of thing. Instead of getting to know someone, what they think and why, people tend to assume. As a Christian, I prefer to get to know someone and their thoughts. After all, I might learn something from them, as I hope they might from me. Only when we dialog from truth and honesty can we ever learn.
Nice video.
jfrontier1 6 months ago
English please. I dont understand half the words you said in the description.
ChinnuWoW 7 months ago
Thank you for teaching me a new word, recalcitrant.
SkepticalBastard 7 months ago
Most religious people are religious simply because they were raised that way. Treating moderate religious people with patience and simple, easy, kind logic really is the best way to get them to understand and hopefully accept your points of view. Kudos for this video.
Ridenism 8 months ago
your wasting your time bro. "Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead." — Thomas Paine
MightyMikeT 9 months ago
@MightyMikeT Tell that to every atheist on their planet were believers at one time, but changed their minds when they had better evidence presented to them. Some examples you might recognize from youtube include: Dusty Smith, Matt Dillahunty, ProportionalResponse, and me.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago 4
@GrapplingIgnorance yes yes.... My only point is I've heard the line Atheists should use the 'soft' approach and disagree. Atheists should use whatever approach they feel like. I'm just glad they are open and speaking out. I will stick with the approach that suits me.,
MightyMikeT 9 months ago
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson
MightyMikeT 9 months ago 2
@MightyMikeT The fact that Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson said things doesn't make them true. I am fond of both of them, but that doesn't mean that any quote by them equates to reality. I especially disagree wit this one by T.J. To say that ridicule is the ONLY way to disarm propositions that lack intelligence is painfully wrong. Being civil and educational is not only an alternate method, but in my experience a far more successful one.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago 7
@GrapplingIgnorance I'm sorry but I wanted to see where this sits exactly. Ridicule may be a small part of a earnest way of dispelling unintelligible propositions. I suppose the only source I'd like to mention is the idea of the IPH, and more importantly because it emphasizes the point, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and it's associated website.
b33p3rz 6 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance The ridicule found here, although like your video points out is sometimes callous, it provides the perfect stepping stone for someone to pinpoint the unintelligible parts of their own propositions. No idea is above ridicule or scrutiny, but ridicule and scrutiny must not be used to bully someone from a position, or we're no better than self-centered theists who use the same methods of social exclusion.
b33p3rz 6 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance
Er...
You are misunderstanding the Thomas Jefferson quote. He wasn't talking about "propositions that lack intelligence". He was talking about propositions that are "unintelligible", that is, that lack any distinct meaning that can actually be addressed. Like, for example, the trinity.
uvauva2 5 months ago
Very good video, I admit I have definitely let my waning of patience for theists get the better of me without realizing that I was only making things worse. But not anymore now that you opened my eyes to how harmful such an attitude is.
Plagueis1017 9 months ago
@f4rtg34ji Because if you wish to convince them that their position is irrational, scorn is only going to broaden the gap between them and that rational position. You're advocating being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
@f4rtg34ji I don't respect religions, but i do respect people as humans with the right to disagree with me. I also consider it unfair to cast a consequential shadow over all theists because of the behavior of the worst among them.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
@f4rtg34ji That which is easiest and that which is wisest are often two very exclusive things.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
Last Sunday a preacher interupted me while I was having my lunch. First the door bell rang, I didn't answer it, then a knock on the door. I opened the door, he told me he was a preacher, I stopped him right there. I informed him he was on private property, signs were clearly posted "NO SOLICITING", he said he wasn't selling anything, I said you are selling religion, now get the hell off the property, now, or I'm calling the police...he took his partner in crime and left...I have no patience.
JOHNINCOLUMBUS 9 months ago
The time of special privileges and deference for religion is over.
You think atheists, scientists and philosophers are abrasive now? This is just the beginning. We have thousands of years of abuse, ridicule, sarcasm, insults, mockery. blasphemy, sacrilege, cartoons, and oh yes, FACTS, ahead of us.
Dawkins uses reason, logic, evidence and rationality to make his points, and is called arrogant.
Religious freaks read a book, claim Divine Knowledge, and are somehow humble and not arrogant. LMFAOFFE.
beesleeper 9 months ago
@beesleeper Do religions deserve to be mocked and ridiculed for their combination of arrogance and ignorance? YES. Would that be the most effective and efficient means of achieving progress and understanding? I'm afraid not.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance
That's adorable.
beesleeper 9 months ago
@beesleeper If you wish to patronize my position, I'd prefer you at least provide some logical information, support, and/or elaboration behind it.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance
No patronizing. It's just...who has the goal of "progress and understanding" ? Religious freaks certainly don't. But if you want to try to persuade them to reason, live it up.
beesleeper 9 months ago
Finally someone pointed this out. I so hate people that are just rude when trying to convince others. and mostly Atheists.. we should be the one who listen to reason and not jumping on conclusion. If you have nothing to add just rude words then keep them.
shapingAfuture 9 months ago
I'm only allowed to click the Like button once, unfortunately. :(
AvatarZ 10 months ago
I can't stand most atheists on this site. Too many are so self righteous and give the rest of us a bad name.
Quionic7 10 months ago
Well said. What a lot of people don't realize is that being abrasive towards those other people only serves to make them dig in and cling to their beliefs even more.
As a school teacher, you have a lot of experience and education in being patient with people (in this case, children) who would disagree with you. Unfortunately the majority of us don't have that same education and need to be reminded that insulting someone makes them more likely to disagree with you than to agree.
jlotus100 10 months ago
Respond to this video... Well siad. Nice work.
Agreed.
4me2cclearly 10 months ago
This is why you rock. I actually am perturbed by Hitchens because he seems to assume theists are stupid. Those of us raised Christian, and who have Christian friends and family, we know better--and we should act like it.
SpeakOut4Reason 10 months ago
hear, hear
you seem like a very reasonable atheist, and although you hide your face i have reasons to believe that you're honest. I hope that your shrewd words won't fall on deaf ears and help to bring about a sincere discussion bereft of condescending insults and idiotic tantrums. peace
pawsoned 10 months ago
What ever, theist are by medical definition mentally ill, meeting the full criteria for a delusional disorder and usually most of the criteria for skitzophrenia
aratidwell 10 months ago
Well said. It wasn't the abrasiveness of Dawkins or Hitchens that caused my de-conversion, but the calm demonstration of the absurdities that I once thought were true.
JosephBenton1 10 months ago
It's a lost cause debating with a brain-washed fundamentalist! I was raised Muslim
and maaaan, we have some really fairy-tale-full of shit! and i never thought it will be hard to get out of the closet!
Essa0601 10 months ago
@Essa0601 I'm so sorry. I think it is so much harder 4 former muslims then former christians. I hope u hav found a support system of friends, either where u r or on the net. good luck :)
cruelbusiness1984 10 months ago
well said and I agree. There is no point is becoming the very hard-headed, stubborn fundamentalist people that you, as an atheist, are trying to have a debate with.
If you are going to act like them, whats the difference
vhbrain 10 months ago
I would whole-heartedly agree to strain cordiality and pleasantness in debate...if it would actually work. But, you forget that you are combating a mental virus--theists have not been persuaded, they have been brainwashed. Some may be amenable to reason, but in that case, the niceties won't matter. Ridicule is a good option for making sure dumbasses know they're dumbasses. They unfortunately swing with a larger voice more than a reasonable one.
CrazySatanicInfidel 10 months ago
@CrazySatanicInfidel Yeah, I dealt with a megaphone-carrying "everyone is going to hell" street preacher today, and you can't deal with their mean-spirited asshole shit. They scream at you at the top of their lungs, with red faces, bulging veins and bulging eyes telling you how much God hates you and how you're going to burn in HELL FOREVER. All I can do is tell them the truth, Phyllis the Pink Unicorn is their true Lord and Savior and if they don't accept it they should be put to death.
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@CrazySatanicInfidel some people actually start truth seeking later in life. they're hungry for it cuz they realize the book they havn't read in 4ever, didn't make any sense then in the context of science now. I was persuaded by many documentaries on national geographic 2 take a hard look @ y I believed. and I realized that I didn't, and hadn't 4 a while. I live my life the same way I did then, only i accept myself 4 bein gay, stopped the self-destructive behavior, and am @ peace
cruelbusiness1984 10 months ago
Great video!
SuperDESTROYER71 10 months ago
thank you for saying this, I hope people take note and do it, or at least try to, I understand it can be hard. even when its a new person if you just get out of an argument with someone else over it its hard not to just continue with the new person as if it was the other.
PhauxTheFox 10 months ago
A lot of us were theists at one point. I agree with you completely. If an atheist had presented his case to me in a rude and caustic manner, I would have been much more likely to try to defend myself rather than take a close look at what was being said.
Roobitz 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
You can't change a stupid person's mind. Whether you are nice or nasty, they lock down their mind like a stubborn child. In fact, its much harder being nice, because you have to spend so much time holding their hand, explaining the same points over and over and over again...and at the end, they usually say 'well, I just believe what I believe.' Or worse, They become angry that you have popped their bubble. Might as well have some fun and get some PWNage in.
Sav3TheWorld 10 months ago 3
@Sav3TheWorld It's unfair to treat people who may be open minded but unfamiliar with the subject like stubborn and stupid people, just because of their beliefs. You can get abrasive after you've confirmed your suspicion of their stubbornness.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago 6
@GrapplingIgnorance oopsy, a malfunction at my end, no need for concern. you make some fine points. my aim is to get them while there young , without being dogmatic, encourage freethought amoungst the religious young.
kram83au 10 months ago
@Sav3TheWorld Maybe you're not the right person as an initiator of the theist conversation. You seem to be more appropriate for piling on once it is determined that the religious person will no longer listen to or partake in rational thinking but still wants to argue his position.
sarkelcpa 10 months ago
Well said, my friend. And you are correct when you say it is difficult to start from a blank slate. But, THAT is exactly what is required. Our goals would be better served to listen, and attempt to create interest about our beliefs with our audience.
TooferMan 10 months ago
I also try and remember that most of the time the person you are arguing with, will not change their minds. It's the people who are reading, and watching who might.
Even if one person learns something, then you succeeded. Although still, it is hard not to curse people out sometimes. It really depends on who I am talking to.
Also, sometimes people mistake kindness for weakness. How does one avoid that? I tend to look at the entire body of the post and ignore the insults for the most part.
Mglosk 10 months ago
...the human drama will continue, and thats what you really have to be ok with.
The only person you can ask to be nice is yourself. If someone is lashing out at you just remember, it comes from the lashing they received.
gobblegobblechew 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
this video came across as a whisper. disappointed.
kram83au 10 months ago
@kram83au What do you mean be "as a whisper?"
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
i wont! thanks!
Ceilaus 10 months ago
I swear youtube atheists and right wing "christian" fundamentalists are made for eachother. They both love to troll and spam videos with the same unoriginal arguments. One misrepresents God and the teachings of Jesus by doing things like hating on gays and the other misrepresents science by acting as if it can support an their OPINION about something that exists outside of science.
Jonisdaman 10 months ago
@Jonisdaman
That 'something' exists outside of science is just YOUR opinion as well, a sortof deistic god can fit that idea. However, most christians like to think their god actually interacts with the world, and it is therefore NOT outside of science.
Since there is no known scientific evidence for such a god, it seems atheists are well within reason to assert that science supports their lack of belief in gods.
Rhine0Cowboy 10 months ago
@Jonisdaman
"misrepresents science by acting as if it can support an their OPINION about something that exists outside of science."
Both science and religion are opinion.
One is an opinion based upon tradition, the other an opinion based on a methodology of evidence.
If you begin by defining the attributes that a deity is required by doctrine to have, it is possible to disprove specific aspects of that deity which indeed, redefines that deity as significantly fictional.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@Jonisdaman Good work. You've shown you can troll a video and misrepresent, hypocrite. Your holier than thou Christian attitude shines through, making you a "Christian Moderate". Hating on out-groups is the most common attribute of a theist, to deny it is misrepresentation. To deny the bible supports hating on gays is misrepresentation. To say that god exists anywhere besides your imagination is unsupported by any evidence, and any god who actually cared about us believing would give evidence.
renegade4dio 10 months ago
@renegade4dio and you must be the youtube atheist. I can tell by how little you know about the christian faith you feel so free to judge. If you knew anything about it you'd know I'm not a christian because I think I'm "holier than thou" quite the opposite I think I'm so unholy I need thou. lol We follow the teachings of Jesus, a great man who never hated on gays or anyone else. why would there be any "evidence" for God in the E=mc2 space time format he created. wouldn't that make him not God?
Jonisdaman 10 months ago
@Jonisdaman Unsurprisingly, you again fail. First, I was raised as a christian. The difference between you and I is that when I was a teen, I began to study my beliefs is depth. I studied the bible, which I quickly found to be a disgusting book full of the most depraved acts I'd ever read. More importantly, you ignored the point: You were trolling a video misrepresenting atheists AND christianity while whining about others doing it. Hypocrite.
renegade4dio 10 months ago
@Jonisdaman Furthermore, whether Jesus was a good person or even existed at all is beside the point. He, depending on your interpretation, either was the evil deity of the old testament, or at least represented it. He specifically did NOT "abolish" the old testament. See Matt 5:17. The old testament prescribes stoning for gays. See Lev 20:13. Hence, Jesus supported stoning of gays. Even you clearly think stoning gays would be wrong. Why do you want to worship something you think is wrong?
renegade4dio 10 months ago
@Jonisdaman And finally, a quick comment on "Fundamentalists" and "Christian Moderates": Fred Phelps knows the bible way better than you do, and is much truer to the actual scripture than any moderate apologist. Go ahead, argue the scripture with him or people like him and discover that fact for yourself. Before attempting to troll atheists, you might consider getting a scripture lesson from the people who spend hours every day studying it, no matter how dirty they make you feel.
renegade4dio 10 months ago
Couldn't agree more.
GreatEighthSin 10 months ago
I certainly understand the need to be patient with theists who haven't had much experience with the theological debates but after hearing the same arguments hundreds of times it gets old and I get short on temper. That said, I am always courteous in person when debating the subject.
llamalord111 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance My apologies, I made the post in haste. I mostly just don't have the patients for people like that anymore. I was just being stubborn.
knightshadepro 10 months ago
Amen. Well-stated!
Liv4Jesus921 10 months ago
@H01001000 Nihilism, at least in the psychological meaning, is considered a condition. I dont know if nihilism exists in any other, "lighter" sense, but the psychological term refers to a state of varying degrees of delusions of grandeur, of selfimportance and so on, and makes you liable to be a social catastrophe. So thats one part of it. Another part of it is that a modicum of humbleness is considered a virtue in our society. You shouldn't boast or overstate your achievements, importance etc.
xxhellspawnedxx 10 months ago
"Ancient people didn't even know how to make a simple two wheel bicycle, yet I'm supposed to believe they unlocked the secrets of the universe?"
That's what I say when asked why I don't believe in the bible.
mrlurp 10 months ago
@H01001000 I didn't pass any judgement on nihilists here- I just don't like when people assume I believe in nothing at all just because I don't believe in God.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago 9
Trying to pretend there is a one size fits all method of arguing with theist is a result for failure and shows a lack of understanding of the situation. If you go around saying there is a right and wrong way to approach the situation, then you should rethink your views. You're doing a disservice to the people who NEED someone to mock them in order to understand. I was one of those theist. Just because you prefer one method does not make it THE right method.
jonnyclueless 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@grappling well.... it takes all kinds. The most important thing is being out. Soft or Hard its a persons choice. Like the gays, can you see which activists are doing it the way you prefer? We have to defend separtion of church and state.
And ill express myself against their baseless insults. And I won't be nice about it
MightyMikeT 10 months ago
@grappling well.... it takes all kinds. The most important thing is being out. Soft or Hard its a persons choice. Like the gays, can you see which activists are doing it the way you prefer? We have to defend separtion of church and state.
And ill express myself against their baseless insults. And I won't be nice about it
MightyMikeT 10 months ago
I'm a Nihilist. I also don't care what people think about me or why I am like I am. I just don't have the time and energy to tell someone I'm not "mad at god". I doubt any religious person will be won over by any kind of argument or reasoning. They'll figure it out on their own... Or not.
Either way I don't care. For now I'm content to watch them make ridiculous statements and embarrass themselves.
CanadianNihilist 10 months ago
@CanadianNihilist
"They'll figure it out on their own... Or not."
Actually, nobody figures anything out for themselves. We draw conclusions from experience and interactions with others.
If someone "figures it out for themselves," then it is equally valid to say that some set of conditions were met to cause that realization.
...which means the process can be catalyzed to occur or to occur more quickly.
Before you can "figure out" how to write well, someone has to teach you how to write at all.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech
When I was young I touched the heating element on the stove because I didn't know any better. Based on the pain that followed, I drew conclusions from experience (but not interactions with others) that it was a bad idea to do it again. And I never have. I figured it out all on my own :)
I have similar reasons for not being religious. but I relied on previous knowledge other people had for researching actual answers. so yes, however interactions with others was not part of it.
CanadianNihilist 10 months ago
Brilliantly put. Like the tit-for-tat program and well, just basic ethics, you have to give the other person the opportunity to fuck up rather than assuming they will. It's like trust. If I go around asking everyone to prove their trustworthiness before trusting them, I'll never trust anyone. You have to extend some trust and be aware that your trust might be misplaced to see if people can be trusted. It's unfair to assume every theist is automatically an arsehole. It's kinda bigoted actually.
Teloculos 10 months ago
@Teloculos
"It's unfair to assume every theist is automatically an arsehole."
How very true.
Science is a plea to reason. Religion, a plea to tradition and emotion.
Both seek answers to the same things, by different processes.
Science is what religion intended to be... a functional grasp of reality.
Deconversion is only a question of encouraging the faithful to become dissatisfied with the reality model they are using and adopt one with utility.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech
Encourage enough cognitive dissonance with their mindset that they receive less dissonance with an alternative and take the path of least resistance? The conversion process ought to work both ways, but some people might seek out and resist dissonance and call it faith.
Another problem is translation between different mindsets. Consider "utility"; a religious and non-religious person could have very different interpretations of satisfation with correspondingly different measures
Teloculos 10 months ago
@Teloculos
"some people might seek out and resist dissonance"
People tend to do that which they perceive is in their best interest.
"Another problem is translation between different mindsets. Consider "utility"..."
...and that requires the patience to explain the utility of science... Mended limbs, extinct smallpox, and a toaster oven.
If "faith as much as a mustard seed (at 0.02g) has an energy mass equivalent of right about 43 tons of TNT, why can't prayer make toast?
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech
Unfortunately, the carrot of heaven and the stick of hell (or their equivalents) can convince many to act against their best interest, but I agree, it's mostly a matter of being patient, listening and understanding how people think and explaining concepts in terms they can understand. We are surrounded by science and are alive because of it in many cases
I like that that quote!
Faith, or wishes need a physical embodiment to have power. Like a virus. Prayer by itself is dead.
Teloculos 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech
But wishes that don't accord with reality don't happen. I don't think it's possible to have faith as much as a mustard seed - the words are all english, but the sentence doesn't make sense and is devoid of meaning.
When prayer restores an amputated limb, I'll listen and think again. Until then, it's just hope taken well beyond the brink of delusion.
Teloculos 10 months ago
@Teloculos
Actually it does... The average mustard seed has a mass of around 0.02g. If 0.02g of mass were converted to its equivalent energy, it would be roughly the same as the chemical energy released by 43 tons of TNT... Which BTW is nothing like the energy required to move a mountain.
.
The point being that if you have faith enough to move a mountain, you would still have to call toast a metaphor before prayer could produce it.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech
I'm not disputing the mass>energy conversion of a mustard seed.
But how can one weigh faith? To talk of having as much faith as a mustard seed it like talking about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. These phrases can be parsed but they don't make any sense. They are category errors; faith has no weight, angels take up no space.
Toast can be a metaphor, you just need to decide what for...it's also a nice snack though and I prefer to focus on practicalities ;-)
Teloculos 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"You can't persuade them."
Atheists trend toward being rational and generally are more responsible, limit the size or their families to those they can afford and tend to have a lower birth rate... and yet, the atheist population in the US has doubled over 10 years, where the general population has a doubling time 6-7 times longer.
So, we are coming from somewhere other than being raised without belief.
I've helped 6 secular christians find a path to reason.
It can be done.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech Good work, some of us didn't achieve that much. I showed the irrationality of their beliefs to only 2 christians, but I consider it to be an achievement, not only by me, but by them. Trying can end in failure. Not trying will never end in anything else.
gilless429 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"simply because they were born into it"
Exactly... They have a traditional role that their family and peers expect of them.
They fear disappointing those other people.
As they come in contact with people who present them not merely with reasonable arguments, but no not abuse them for just sort of following along because it is what everyone else in the family did, they realize that their fear of rejection, is less important...
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
... there is a huge difference between the statements, "You're crazy for believing that bronze-age crap," vs. "You aren't crazy if you don't believe something that isn't evident."
One gets you an argument based on an emotionally defensive position, and the other gets you a conversation... maybe.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist typical liberal fascist, loves to complain about other people yet can't take it when people call him on it. Liberals LOVE to play footsies with the militant homosexual mafia and radical Islam, yet when you mention Christianity or when Christians mention any of their dear lovers, liberals get all bent out of shape. Liberals like you LOVE radical Islam. You hate America and the Christianity it came from, therefore, when you see the twin towers fall you're filled with glee.
IAmHotize 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist Tell me something I should care about you filthy vermin. Go die of AIDS already you filthy piece of shit. The reason you liberals aren't ever going to gain control of my country thank God is because you can't stop dying of AIDS. Every one of you filthy scumbags should be taken out and shot in the head, and in 2012 when we take control I'll be glad to see it happen. Good day to you, sir.
IAmHotize 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IAmHotize ''The reason you liberals aren't ever going to gain control of my country thank God is because you can't stop dying of AIDS.'' What the fuck... Go seek help you freaking crazy bastard,
Reasonwillwin 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist So you're a sick, pedophile child molester perv. I'm calling the police on you, sick fucking freak bastard. I hope you rot in prison. That figures from liberal scumbags like you. All liberals are nigger scumbags who like free money from their nigger president Obama. Continue destroying out once great nation with your liberal ignorance. In 2012 we'll take control and we'll probably put every one of you idiots to death. Fucking idiot.
IAmHotize 10 months ago
@IAmHotize Yes, us liberals are the fascists. You support your braindead leader Sarah Palin who fired the Librarian in Wausilla as Mayor because this librarian would remove books by Richard Dawkins or Harry Potter books, and we're the fucking fascists. Christian Dominionists like you want to see homosexuals stoned to death and then claim your religion is less barbaric than Islam. Idiots like you are the reason so many gay kids commit suicide, and I'm sure you're glad about that.
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago 15
@TheIntolerantAtheist I have come to the conclusion that Conservatives are fascist and liberals are socialist. Thus why I have resolved to avoid all political parties and ideological denominations of those parties. After all the founding fathers didn't want there to be political parties.
Plagueis1017 9 months ago
@IAmHotize
You're a jackass. If an atheist is more against Christians than Muslims it's only because they have to deal with Christians more. Of course disliking(or hating as you put it) Christians automatically means you hate America. I bet you watch Glenn Beck don't you? Also Militant homosexual mafia? WTF? I've never even heard of such a thing before your post.
lychanking 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"How do you reason with this shit without getting angry???"
You don't... The reason part that is.
I suggest that this calls for a large bowl of popcorn and a beer.
This is one of those cases where looney batshit is disguising itself as religion... It is his purpose in life to serve as a lesson to others.
You begin by allowing him to paint himself into a corner and then deconstruct his argument.
He'll evade... you can calmly pursue. Don't allow him the elastic retreat.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
...you can recurs through his basic assertion by asking him questions in each part that require objective support. "How do you know god exists?"
The answer will raise the next question for you... "How do you know that the bible is accurate when it's obviously self-contradictory?"
..."If you went to buy a used car would you trust the salesman if he wouldn't let you test drive the car or even see it?"
Why take advice on buying a car from someone who hasn't seen it himself?
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
A church is first and foremost a commoditization of god... a business, in business to make money.
Just like any other business they franchise their particular brand, and compete for market share.
Think, MacDonalds and Burger King located across the street from each other.
If you start finding bugs in the food, it reflects badly on the entire chain, and on the industry itself, not just on the one franchise.
It can easily be made unpalatable with time and exposure.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"him: a vicious, heartless monster, and feel good about it."
I have a morality quiz that quickly separates the rational/secular theists from the loony fringe.
"If god told you to take your neighbor's house because you deserved it more, and that you should kill everyone in the house... would you cut up the children with a sword as god commanded?"
"If your friend came to you and told you god had commanded him to do this, would you call the cops or join him?" Yes/No question
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
Latest weapon?
The Cathar Purga, The Roman Inquisition and it's spinoffs, The Crusades, witch burnings, blasphemy laws...
This isn't new... this is SOP.
"Anyone who disagrees is an apostate because MY word is given to me by god... any who don't accept that must be burned.... GOTT MIT UNS!!!"
Just remember that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the same exact religious tradition in different guises and it will make more sense.
Market Share.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"America passes unconstitutional laws banning Islam because Christians decide that it's not really a religion, as their stupid religion claims, it must be defended constitutionally."
The wonderful thing about our Constitution is that it allows for things to go wrong... We find laws to be unjust with time and correct the mistake.
The bad thing about that is that it can often take a lifetime for a law to be overturned.
Just represent reason and let time sort it out.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"Christians don't believe in free speech." Fundies don't, secular religious do, though to their discomfort at times.
It's an irony that the bible was never written for the masses but for the priests eyes alone.
It was the Gutenberg Press that made it practical to publish it, adopted not to promote knowledge and free speech, but for material gain for the task of printing indulgences.
Then used (secretly) to also publish works of sedition (Luther and Galileo).
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"RealCatholicTV believes only righteous Catholics should have the right to vote "
Precisely the reason that the Nazi Party became the official church of Germany...
If you were a party member, you defined your political, and your religious position all in one package... because they were one and the same... Rather like what the fundies are pushing.
The official religion became the party, and the church became regulated by the party.
Party members had rights. Others did not.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
My response to claims that homosexuality or whatever else is the flavor of the day, is destroying the church is usually something like, "I had no idea that destroying the church was that easy."
Wow... dead birds, frogs, fish, tornados, earthquake, tsunami... Apparently gays have all the powers of god.
What we have here is a small noisy minority and a majority that don't want the drama, and can't take them seriously.
Pretty much the same as early 20th century Germany.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
Silence and apathy were what made the 3rd Reich possible...
The unwillingness to "deal with" the loony batshit.
Silence implies consent... Silence implies agreement... Silence implies resigned defeat.
...to those who believe that dealing with these people isn't worth the effort... Silence is the balance of the equation required before the loonies can rise to power.
Don't be silent...
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech I fear what will happen when the irrational right gains control in 2012. They want no taxes, the churches to take charge of education and they believe the earth is 6,000 years old and global warming is liberal propaganda. These are not rational human beings. They call liberals filthy vermin and nazis and then speak about laws to stone then to death.
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
It's a self-correcting situation... It is inconvenient in that it may not be self-correcting within my lifetime.
A theocracy that is dependent upon science for its survival can't suppress that science indefinitely.
The Catholic Church realized this in the advances in navigation and ballistics that eventually destroyed the heliocentric model.
They couldn't suppress the knowledge without incurring gross strategic disadvantage and extinction.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech
DURR... I meant geocentric model
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
What we have learned from history is that those who fail to oppose theocracy, passively advocate it.
It requires ONLY taking the time that "isn't worth the time" to confront the loonies and expose them.
Yes, it's a tedious job.
One should make time for it unless the thought of a repeat of history isn't disturbing.
...and rather than a frontal assault, the effort should be toward being rational and encouraging reason and a secular model.
Stalin, wasn't a solution either.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"a religious extremist Aunt"
Does that make her an AuntieTheist? LOL
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheIntolerantAtheist 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
"so he whines about liberals as Nazi's censoring freedom of speech"
Actually, that was what the Volks Movement whined about... and why Hitler railed against the secularity of the christian churches...
...and how the Nazi party rose to power out of the Evangelical Protestant Movement.
Emmanuel Hirsch was the German Pat Robertson of the day, and the primary source of much of Hitler's ideology. Mien Kampf is filled with quotes and paraphrases of Hirsch.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist
...But, don't make the mistake of believing that I'm suggesting that the argument is "winnable."
In a case like that the object is not showing him that his argument is fallacy, but to hold the spotlight up for him.
Be direct and honest about why you're there.
Tell him that he is your best asset for illustrating the insanity inherent in fundy religious zealotry.
Thank him for his time... being a bad example is hard work.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
@TheOptimistPrime it does not matter what SOME atheists say here on YouTube that does not mean we all do. which is what you said. and there you go getting your self you have now said that christians do it to.p
"I believe in a non-religious" " Jesus said the kingdom of heaven cometh not with -"
if you are non religious you cannot quote scripture to validate your view. and
" I see valid points from both atheists and Christians"
you cannot be an atheistic christian!
cake1834 10 months ago
@TheOptimistPrime good job you noticed you were proven wrong. however bad choice in then ignoring everything you said and everything i said. you showed your self wrong by not being able to defend yourself
cake1834 10 months ago
@TheOptimistPrime we should just let them persist in this. sure as long as it stays with them. keep it out of my life keep it out of government keep it out of jobs and keep it the fuck out of schools!!!
truth is a key point in life yet you are advocating for us to allow them to lie to themselves?
and atheists do not "often" refer you can also not generalize us all by one standard you cooked up in your head! ever think there is more than one atheist?!?!?!?!?1
cake1834 10 months ago
Well done mate, an important and eloquent video that all atheists should watch. I agree with your viewpoint and with those who have found it difficult to persevere with kindness in the face of agressive intolerance. Often, when I urge a theist to question a given doctrine in a totally innocuous way, I am met with belligerence. They perceive this as an attack on their faith and start with the old Christian threats of hell-fire. At that point I know there's no possibility for honest debate. Shame.
PenguinOfDestiny 10 months ago
It's hard to not be abrasive. I sometimes fail. When someone walks to you and says "I have a strong feeling that there's something beyond death." I just had to say "I have a strong feeling I'm gonna win the lottery today, but feelings are for losers."
When a christian's best argument is "I'll break every bone in your body" you kinda lose interest in trying to convince them.
AtheismTV 10 months ago
Agreed. It's not those individual's fault they never heard the counter-argument before, and so many have bothered us with them in the past.
Mithcoriel 10 months ago
Well said sir, and you're surrounded by oppressive theists; hence the change of account names, identity hiding, and no more Cleatus :( I'm sure Ghandi would have been proud of your patients and tenacity. Hopefully the world will one day be free of religious oppression. Sure, people have the right to believe in the fae, dragons, sky daddies or anything else they want; provided their rights end where non-believers' rights begin :)
XenogeneGray 10 months ago
Very true
Nagneto 10 months ago
Very good point. I think this is also good advice for the outspoken theist. Nothing is more annoying than when someone is completely arrogant about their position and completely ignorant of yours.
vampswagen 10 months ago
I completely agree. I've complained about this quite a bit myself. So many do that sort of thing. So many also have fairly week arguments. Far too many have no understanding of anything but empiricism. There is also this overuse of throwing negatives from the bible at the theist, which does nothing to show why believing in gods is such a silly idea. Getting back to your main point, continuous ad hominem is something else I see from far to many fellow atheists, who should know better.
sonnygll 10 months ago
I know you're right but its tough sometimes. Today I posted a few bible quotes on a friend of mines Facebook. She never read the damn book but is one of those cherry pickers. She deleted the thread, but I'm sure I probably scared the hell out of her showing her Elishas resurrections and bear massacres.
NoPinocchio 10 months ago
That's how I deconverted my b/f by asking him questions and giving him room to actually think about it/ I think most logical people once question either will have to go the bat shit crazy path or go down logic way.
MistressArte 10 months ago
Excellent. I had a chance encounter with a fundy this weekend, but it took a while to figure it out because I was attempting the slow-knife method that you describe. I kept asking subtle and innocent sounding questions, and was continually shocked that she was reliable more crazy than I suspected. When she eventually was stumped, I just quietly let it sink in. I hope she is thinking of me, and hasn't wiped the whole episode from memory.
Morkindie 10 months ago
I think I agree. I have noticed that when I argue, or at least begin to argue, with theists who don't debate this at all, they get annoyed and quickly stop and lose all interest in continuing the discussion/debate.
daemonowner 10 months ago
So what then, tiptoe around their feelings? To many of these people any mention of your atheism for any reason ever is a strident assault on their belief system.
Some people will never know reason or logic. They must be chastised, berated and humiliated back under the rock whence their crooked belief system crawled.
I disagree with you, but I do so humbly as you are the only person to seriously challenge my axe-wielding atheist philosophy.
TheBigMclargehuge 10 months ago
I always loved your videos. How did you become so articulate?
longname25 10 months ago
I was having a religious conversation on FB, when the Christian suddenly accused me of being angry, when I was just putting forth ideas. When I asked why I was appearing angry, the response was, "Love you, buddy." I asked again, and got ignored again.
I shut down before I got angry, but people like her piss me off. :)
TheOtherSide100 10 months ago
@TheOtherSide100 They are very good at deciding reality then believing it. It crosses over to other parts of their lives.
TheBigMclargehuge 10 months ago
The right way is usually the hard way. So oké.
FHomeBrew 10 months ago
I totally agree mate, I myself have lost patience quite a few times and 'given it' to a theist. Yet, it never convinces them of anything but the cleverly constructed stereotypes of 'angry atheism'; which are designed to show a frustrated and bewildered rationalist as 'angry at god'.
Also, I think many on youtube are just jumping on the Atheism bandwagon (without really knowing the arguments), just to release their anger on others. These 'trendy Atheists' are really making us look bad!
Christopholaes 10 months ago
@swokrams58 ... don't make me hurt you.
BionicDance 10 months ago
i have started asking questions to find out stuff like are they Yecs, can they see if they are wrong (if no then i tell them to have a nice day and hope that in the future they will find out why it is ok to be wrong) and try to be nice and just tell them Gandalf told us you shall not pass when they quote the bible after we agree that that wont work at all i find that helps my case to know what they think and to try to be polite
bjam89 10 months ago
Great video Richie. I needed this.
PaleBlueVoice 10 months ago
Great Advice!!! spoken like a wise man!!!
Triathlete5551 10 months ago
I respectfully disagree, not with all of your points, but specifically giving wide latitudes to the opposition. I have a friend that is a Christian and he is not prep'ed for such conversations. Nevertheless, he will still quote points that I and others have already debunked. At that point I burn him.
knightshadepro 10 months ago
@knightshadepro I said that in my video. I clearly stated that I'm talking strictly about people who are new to the discussion here.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
For me it just depends on who I am talking to and how they present themselves.
If for example they immediately start proclaiming that Atheism is a religion, start putting words in my mouth and that I am in it just for the sin then I will not have much patience for it.
flammamancer 10 months ago
I always look forward to your videos.
Bobbiethejean 10 months ago 7
@Bobbiethejean Thank you.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
You are right about this. I was a Christian who was in my late 50's when I first heard anything contrary to what I had been taught as a *believer*. Living in the midsouth, I had never personally met an atheist and regarded them with horror.But it was on youtube that I did meet them. I was treated with patience by most atheists I spoke with, and they simply had the better answers.The reason I started asking questions was because I finally read the bible that I had been *studying* for 40 years!!
8journey8 10 months ago 3
I truly want fellow atheists to follow your advice!
Getting your discussion partner into a defence position is not a great thing if you want your ideas to come across. Rather make themselves question the text of the bible or the "credo" .
skinnyjohnsen 10 months ago