@noobler9 Ralph has this idea that entertainment industry has a brainwash component. They take away people's attention from things that really matter. You are talking about violent video games can teach kids about fighting for their right, but often kids play too much video games to care about they real right. In ancient rome, gladiator serves that purpose too, take away people's attention.
video games? far less an issue than you'd think in so many ways, many of the more popular and better game companies have essentially turned to violating the player if you ever play modern warfare 2, you'll get the idea pretty quick that it's not glorifying violence at large, it's kind of funny actually, and there's others done with the plot and storyline ripped through history practically
it's really subtle, of course it might be so subtle that they gotta be tipped off on the source
@noobler9 and ralph nader needs to remember that a huge portion of ancient democracy was that people managed to learn the necessary fighting skills but restrain themselves all the same, of course, with video games you're not really learning skills, but you're learning the effects on the mind
my study of politics started in fact, with the study of world war 2 weaponry, with only a few pictures occasionally of the nasty aspects of it, and world war 1
@noobler9 the trick was the "know how it feels" aspect, combined with the "doesn't like how it feels" thing
and as lycurgus said, "start with the family" on how to get democracy, and as you know bullying is a fairly common and natural thing, you gotta learn how to defend against it, but you have to understand why bullying is wrong too or else you become the bully, but you can't just run and hide from it... you have to have the courage, and be taught, and have the drive
@noobler9 see, the trick is, let the "violent indoctrination" occur, but to co-opt and usurp the process of "why is the violence worth it" by giving superior education on the concepts, and keeping it close to personal experiences, inserting key specific definitions and by getting the people who are skilled, have a good reputation, they've got "street cred" so to speak veterans often temper newcomers or something like that, and educate them too, a good citizen can do that about violence even
@noobler9 because you have to learn to defend yourself at some point, it's rare that not fighting is viable entirely it's about getting beyond the disagreement that's key I think, fighting to a standoff is important, I was always taught that if bullies come after you hurt them, you might lose that fight but it won't be worth it to them again
because threats do arise, and defense is needed, but you have to educate about where that thin line between defense and offense is
@noobler9 but then, if/when I have kids, I intend to teach them everything, a sort of innoculation against indoctrination, favouring some things but not really closing much if anything off either
I learned a lot of "advanced" and "adult" stuff by the time I was 10 even
authority based stuff was pretty bad for teaching I've noticed, and teaches bad things of course too
@noobler9 Many of the school shooting events are related to bullying. I don't think playing violent video games is an efficient way for children to learn how to defend themselves (I don't mean violent video games cause school shooting). Many popular games like God of war and mortal combat involve tearing human apart. Others allow the players to physically abuse sexy girls. It is a fact that many players enjoyed these. But it is hard to say what are their impacts on real life.
@outsky2008 what you do is you teach them how to really fight, some loser breaking social contract out of desperation is going to happen at some point or another, because they're desperate they don't care about social contract, and they'll use a gun on people because they don't care about social contract give them the tools they need to respond in kind, in a manner that hurts the opponent badly enough that when they win they have 2 doubts, "is he just lazy" "what if next time"
@noobler9 and by definition they're a loser in whatever competition we're talking about if they're that desperate, successful people might be successful because they've broken the desired social contract a bit, but escalation of this is not in anyone's interests, so that person will be shut down unless they can get good at it themselves, it's exposure to these things that works well, and of course people naturally love god of war and grand theft auto 3, they're fun
@outsky2008 the impacts of god of war and GTA are nil on real life other than fun, is another way of putting this, if you unearth sacred video game tomes from thousands of years ago predating warfare, let me know, if you're so concerned now if there's some stupid person involved who's a bully then the others can educate them, if one person's being picked on a fair bit then they can be educated, so on, so on, so on, once the threat of jabbing people's eyes out comes into play, fights stop
@noobler9 I play various video games for years. It is good to argue something that I love for the sake of the tradition of arguement.
Regarding how to deal with bullying, I checked many sources. Most of them do not suggest using violence, except one source says, in dangerous situation, self defense may be needed. It seems bullying prevention institutions try to avoid using violence as much as possible.
@outsky2008 yes, those are 3rd party groups, that's the UN, when there is no equivalent, the only form is deterrence that's why taddle taling doesn't work most of the time unless you have big brother running amok
which presents it's own problems, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance and all that, remember?
@outsky2008 take arab spring for instance, the last time someone wanted to change internally, in an environment like that, it took a revolution in russia, america's revolution scared britain shitless, and thus canada was able to decolonize and gain independence itself in light of this, it also took 2 rebellions in canada the threat of the USA, and the UN, and NATO, is what allowed arab spring to work, in syria it's the arab league too, arab spring scared the saudis into concessions
@outsky2008 a brief history of violence would be an excellent place to start in fact, stephen pinker gives a talk
furthermore, look at the leviathan because of the 30 years war, and the various names he mentions as well as ancient societal systems like the greeks and the romans which our society is based off of somewhat, and the british ones wimps don't survive very long you may have noticed, unless they learn to run and hide well or manipulate the strong, deterrence is the basis of civility
@noobler9 When you confidently claim violent video games like god of war have no impact on real life, how many researches have you looked into? I know quite a number of psychological research suggest watching violent movie or playing violent video games increase aggression. It is because these studies may have some external validity issues, I gave the tentative statement as not sure what's their impact.
@outsky2008 I've seen those studies too, you know what makes for more violence? the news, because at that point, it's not about a sport, it's about actual violence, sometimes someone who's the literal definition of psychotic might mistake it, but overall not particularly an issue, this is where education comes into play, you're not going to hide your head in the sand and pretend violence doesn't happen successfully, sorry
@noobler9 Many video games give a biased representation of violence. That is they make violence look way cooler that it actually is. If you want kids to learn about self defense, don't you think playing sport is much more efficient and relevant way. Bully usually pick on kids who are physically weaker. Playing video games do not make them any stronger. The violence learned in video game is usually not proper for real world kid self defense, i.e. shooting.
@outsky2008 that's just sport, it's not about self defense, it's about strategy itself, this whole turtle shell tactic stuff is itself damaging because it's stupidity incarnate, you never arbitrarily rule out strategies and tactics in power struggles for survival or dignity, no one will ever do that except those who you can convince you've got the back of absolutely hence, israel, peace in the middle east will only occur when that's realized, athens lost to sparta because of turtling
@outsky2008 because in the end, deterrence only works if you have some threat of counter attack, not this sort of "oh you know I'll just keep blocking" that only works with an adult against a child, or some other similar asymmetrical force no, I've dealt with most of my problems myself because there was no real protection from those who ostensibly were there to protect me, the other people knew when to get at me, that's why I know how to fight
@outsky2008 however, once you've settled them down a bit, you can settle down too, by going defensive and not harrassing them, it's called de-escalation, you beat them in the field in the highest forms of aggression, then you switch down to a lesser version of aggression with that same highest forms of aggression thwarting defense you had previously, this signals that you're willing to de-escalate even though you're in conflict, to avoid M.A.D. but you never lie down to die, ever
@noobler9 Ralph has this idea that entertainment industry has a brainwash component. They take away people's attention from things that really matter. You are talking about violent video games can teach kids about fighting for their right, but often kids play too much video games to care about they real right. In ancient rome, gladiator serves that purpose too, take away people's attention.
outsky2008 2 months ago
:D omg nader resisted the teacher on the basis of his own authority and knowledge too, omg :D I love it
willful individuality is the best :D
noobler9 2 months ago
video games? far less an issue than you'd think in so many ways, many of the more popular and better game companies have essentially turned to violating the player if you ever play modern warfare 2, you'll get the idea pretty quick that it's not glorifying violence at large, it's kind of funny actually, and there's others done with the plot and storyline ripped through history practically
it's really subtle, of course it might be so subtle that they gotta be tipped off on the source
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 and ralph nader needs to remember that a huge portion of ancient democracy was that people managed to learn the necessary fighting skills but restrain themselves all the same, of course, with video games you're not really learning skills, but you're learning the effects on the mind
my study of politics started in fact, with the study of world war 2 weaponry, with only a few pictures occasionally of the nasty aspects of it, and world war 1
start with cool tanks, end with civic duty
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 the trick was the "know how it feels" aspect, combined with the "doesn't like how it feels" thing
and as lycurgus said, "start with the family" on how to get democracy, and as you know bullying is a fairly common and natural thing, you gotta learn how to defend against it, but you have to understand why bullying is wrong too or else you become the bully, but you can't just run and hide from it... you have to have the courage, and be taught, and have the drive
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 see, the trick is, let the "violent indoctrination" occur, but to co-opt and usurp the process of "why is the violence worth it" by giving superior education on the concepts, and keeping it close to personal experiences, inserting key specific definitions and by getting the people who are skilled, have a good reputation, they've got "street cred" so to speak veterans often temper newcomers or something like that, and educate them too, a good citizen can do that about violence even
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 because you have to learn to defend yourself at some point, it's rare that not fighting is viable entirely it's about getting beyond the disagreement that's key I think, fighting to a standoff is important, I was always taught that if bullies come after you hurt them, you might lose that fight but it won't be worth it to them again
because threats do arise, and defense is needed, but you have to educate about where that thin line between defense and offense is
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 but then, if/when I have kids, I intend to teach them everything, a sort of innoculation against indoctrination, favouring some things but not really closing much if anything off either
I learned a lot of "advanced" and "adult" stuff by the time I was 10 even
authority based stuff was pretty bad for teaching I've noticed, and teaches bad things of course too
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 Many of the school shooting events are related to bullying. I don't think playing violent video games is an efficient way for children to learn how to defend themselves (I don't mean violent video games cause school shooting). Many popular games like God of war and mortal combat involve tearing human apart. Others allow the players to physically abuse sexy girls. It is a fact that many players enjoyed these. But it is hard to say what are their impacts on real life.
outsky2008 2 months ago
@outsky2008 what you do is you teach them how to really fight, some loser breaking social contract out of desperation is going to happen at some point or another, because they're desperate they don't care about social contract, and they'll use a gun on people because they don't care about social contract give them the tools they need to respond in kind, in a manner that hurts the opponent badly enough that when they win they have 2 doubts, "is he just lazy" "what if next time"
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 and by definition they're a loser in whatever competition we're talking about if they're that desperate, successful people might be successful because they've broken the desired social contract a bit, but escalation of this is not in anyone's interests, so that person will be shut down unless they can get good at it themselves, it's exposure to these things that works well, and of course people naturally love god of war and grand theft auto 3, they're fun
it's a nonissue
noobler9 2 months ago
@outsky2008 the impacts of god of war and GTA are nil on real life other than fun, is another way of putting this, if you unearth sacred video game tomes from thousands of years ago predating warfare, let me know, if you're so concerned now if there's some stupid person involved who's a bully then the others can educate them, if one person's being picked on a fair bit then they can be educated, so on, so on, so on, once the threat of jabbing people's eyes out comes into play, fights stop
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 I play various video games for years. It is good to argue something that I love for the sake of the tradition of arguement.
Regarding how to deal with bullying, I checked many sources. Most of them do not suggest using violence, except one source says, in dangerous situation, self defense may be needed. It seems bullying prevention institutions try to avoid using violence as much as possible.
outsky2008 2 months ago
@outsky2008 yes, those are 3rd party groups, that's the UN, when there is no equivalent, the only form is deterrence that's why taddle taling doesn't work most of the time unless you have big brother running amok
which presents it's own problems, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance and all that, remember?
noobler9 2 months ago
@outsky2008 take arab spring for instance, the last time someone wanted to change internally, in an environment like that, it took a revolution in russia, america's revolution scared britain shitless, and thus canada was able to decolonize and gain independence itself in light of this, it also took 2 rebellions in canada the threat of the USA, and the UN, and NATO, is what allowed arab spring to work, in syria it's the arab league too, arab spring scared the saudis into concessions
noobler9 2 months ago
@outsky2008 a brief history of violence would be an excellent place to start in fact, stephen pinker gives a talk
furthermore, look at the leviathan because of the 30 years war, and the various names he mentions as well as ancient societal systems like the greeks and the romans which our society is based off of somewhat, and the british ones wimps don't survive very long you may have noticed, unless they learn to run and hide well or manipulate the strong, deterrence is the basis of civility
noobler9 2 months ago
@noobler9 When you confidently claim violent video games like god of war have no impact on real life, how many researches have you looked into? I know quite a number of psychological research suggest watching violent movie or playing violent video games increase aggression. It is because these studies may have some external validity issues, I gave the tentative statement as not sure what's their impact.
outsky2008 2 months ago
@outsky2008 I've seen those studies too, you know what makes for more violence? the news, because at that point, it's not about a sport, it's about actual violence, sometimes someone who's the literal definition of psychotic might mistake it, but overall not particularly an issue, this is where education comes into play, you're not going to hide your head in the sand and pretend violence doesn't happen successfully, sorry
noobler9 2 months ago
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outsky2008 2 months ago
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@noobler9 Many video games give a biased representation of violence. That is they make violence look way cooler that it actually is. If you want kids to learn about self defense, don't you think playing sport is much more efficient and relevant way. Bully usually pick on kids who are physically weaker. Playing video games do not make them any stronger. The violence learned in video game is usually not proper for real world kid self defense, i.e. shooting.
outsky2008 2 months ago
@outsky2008 that's just sport, it's not about self defense, it's about strategy itself, this whole turtle shell tactic stuff is itself damaging because it's stupidity incarnate, you never arbitrarily rule out strategies and tactics in power struggles for survival or dignity, no one will ever do that except those who you can convince you've got the back of absolutely hence, israel, peace in the middle east will only occur when that's realized, athens lost to sparta because of turtling
noobler9 2 months ago
@outsky2008 because in the end, deterrence only works if you have some threat of counter attack, not this sort of "oh you know I'll just keep blocking" that only works with an adult against a child, or some other similar asymmetrical force no, I've dealt with most of my problems myself because there was no real protection from those who ostensibly were there to protect me, the other people knew when to get at me, that's why I know how to fight
no, defense alone is untenable
noobler9 2 months ago
@outsky2008 however, once you've settled them down a bit, you can settle down too, by going defensive and not harrassing them, it's called de-escalation, you beat them in the field in the highest forms of aggression, then you switch down to a lesser version of aggression with that same highest forms of aggression thwarting defense you had previously, this signals that you're willing to de-escalate even though you're in conflict, to avoid M.A.D. but you never lie down to die, ever
noobler9 2 months ago