Sure, a free market for health care is one in which those who can afford it are free to obtain it and those who cannot are free to live in discomfort or die. Somewhere in between are those people who are free to be financial slaves in exchange for healthcare.
From the BBC article -- Unhealthy living 'almost universal' in Scotland
"The Scottish results are similar to those in a recent survey of English behaviour, and suggest both nations are more unhealthy than many European countries, and even North America."
i know i wouldn't, infact i don't know anyone in the UK who would!!
the NHS is the UK's greatest recource.
i think you'll be hard pushed to find any independant medical expert or economist say the american system is better when its 50% more expensive in the U.S than the UK or canada, with complete coverage for everybody (in UK anyway)
america has the worst ranking healthcare of any 1st world country, but yeah its so great
I'm in Minneapolis. The only health and dental care I can get is a local clinic. The man who helped me with the paperwork indirectly said I pretty much have to lie to qualify for the state program. (Can have more than $1,000 in the bank.)
I've heard people on BBC Radio whinging (a word I learned from listening to The BBC) about their NHS.
Despite a few snags, The NHS is paradise compared to the meager offerings for low income Americans.
i really look on in disgust/disbelief watch this whole thing. you's are the richest country in the world, you so many don't want you to take care of your citizens.
i hope you get a public option, i hope in the near future you go one better and join the rest of the civilized world and have universal healthcare.
It's refreshing to finally read an intelligent post about health care! I just finished reading The Swedish Secret, which compares America and Sweden.
They have total health care FOR LESS MONEY than what America spends. It was around - Sweden spends $2,200 per person each year, but America spends around $4,700 a year!
You're right, so many Americans are so selfish. They don't want to help anyone.
But there are good people here. We elected Barack!
the pathetic thing is EVERY country in the world spends less on healthcare, and every 1st world country has a better system.
until americans (and i don't mean to generalise here) get the idea of capitalism at all cost out their mentality then you will never progress as a society.
there are several amenities that should never be run for profit... schools, infrastucture (i.e roads, street upkeep etc) and HEALTHCARE!
you have obama, what you really need is an FDR/truman type
Personally, I think there must be private, for-profit opportunities in educationa nd healthcare and the like IN ADDIOTION TO the social program offered by the government. Government is for ALL people, not just the socially evolved one that want to work together for a better collective living experience. Opting out, inovating, competing, etc need to be option.
eg. I think that the government should issue public money, but private money backed by gold and silver should be allowed to compete.
i agree with that, the point i was making is there should and must be public services like this available.
in the UK we have the NHS, a fantastic system, but with a few flaws such as waiting times for non essential surgery. these waiting times are not generally wrong and only in cases where the patient is in no pain. if you are not happy with that then private healthcare is available and the only difference is the hospital you go to is more of a hotel and you're seen straight away regardless
from the UK but have been watching alot of the debate on healthcare.
the amount of lies being spouted by fox news is ridiculous and its no wonder reform is so hard to achieve. the NHS has problems but it is a fantastic system. if you need treatment you get it right away and despite what fox say we don't refuse treatment to anyone, regardless of age!
Healthcare is a scam. Everyone who watches fox's bullshit thinks "Oh if FOX is against it, it must be good" well, you know what? Fox knows that's what you'll do, so when democrats are in power, FOX starts saying the truth and the left starts bullshitting. Any medical INDEPENDANT economist will tell you, and proove you why healthcare is a scam . I don't care what people say about europe or canada, they have alot more horror stories than is told. I should know, i'm Canadian.
Good video I had to sub after watching, I have a few conservative friends who think they have no party these days. They used to be Republicans but it has been taken over by the Ultra Right Wing. I myself believe in a free market but think they have twisted this idea so far its unrecognizable.
I used to think less government was good but the recent look at Wall Street convinced me that people are like children cleaning their rooms, they hide everything in the closet & call it clean.
There is a huge lack of transparency with the health care system.Did you know that hospital prices are actually kind of secret (they don't have average prices per complete procedures),and the discounts that Health Insurance companies get are a very well kept secret (you as a patient are not told how much the health insurance paid, but how much you "saved".In reality,health insurance companies get over 50% discount in average. This is huge price discrimination that wouldn't pass antitrust tests.
I once managed diagnostic services and I know very well how this works. Even when you are on the inside it is a mystery what you will be paid when you send an insurance company a bill. It's even worse when it is Medicare or Medicaid. We once had a stack of computer printouts about an inch deep that had been submitted to Medicare and next to it a check from Medicare for ONE CENT. That's right, one inch of billings and one penny in payment. Any wonder non-Medicaid/Medicare patients pay so much?
I have no problem with free markets, but I do have a huge problem with them being unregulated which will invariably benefit the biggest and most powerful.
After watching your video, I have to ask you - based on everything you say here, *why* would you not advocate for universal health care?
Encourage small business, regulate and tax *fairly*, and provide a social safety net. Makes sense.
I've been looking for a video I watched last week so I can credit the maker for inspiring me with this idea. I am a minarchist, I want my government to do less for me. But if that isn't possible, I would like my government to do whatever they do right.
I think the only reason that any of us don't want our government involved in things like medicine is that we don't trust our government to do anything right.
Harry Brown said, whatever it is you think government will do for you, they won't.
Indeed, we can't imagine that the govt. would manage a health care plan advantageously. Too many congressmen concern themselves mainly with their longevity in their congressional posts regardless of the effects on the nation.
That having been said, I have been finding myself in sympathy with certain progress and liberal views. NOT the pseudo-progressive or pseudo-liberal views of Democrats but the European progressive and liberal views. They have been expiramenting with models for such things as socialized medicine for 75 years or more, we should be able to learn from their successes and failures.
That's why I made this video. It is my way of saying, we don't need to lie to feel good about being un/underinsured.
Thank you for doing that. It isn't easy to get numbers to figure out how we should compare. Many true progressive candidates shake their heads and wonder why so many Americans think they are better of than Europeans. I guess that ignorance is bliss.
I'm sorry, but there isn't enough resources on the planet for almost 7 BILLION of its inhabitants to live the good life. It has been calculated that if everyone on the planet consumed as much as we do in America it would take four worlds to produce the fuel, raw materials and food.
I will be posting my peak oil update soon. Take a few minutes when I do to view the videos that I link.
Growth of any kind can never be sustainable ... it's a math problem not a judgement call.
The trick for government is to persuade you that you are keeping your income when you aren't. For example, the gross domestic product of the USA was just over $36,000 per capita. A family of two adults, two kids, a cat and a dog produces $142,000 but with two minumum wage jobs earns under $31,000, less $3,100 fed income tax, less $1,395 state income tax, less $1,922 employment tax, less about 8% sales tax on all purchases. AND has debt to repay!
Your English is better than my Bulgarian ... or any other language. Did I mention that Americans think English is the language of the world?
The big problem with retirements isn't really the concept of keeping our old farts in a warm, safe home but trying to do that while proping up a debt-based money system that only works in a growth economy with fossil fuel as a subsitute for slave labor.
I think that in our future old folks will live with their kids ... or some other family or friends.
I think that your points are good but you dont calculate how people live on avarage. What I have understood Americans lifestyle is much more radical than in UK , Sweden or Norway.
If by radical you mean we eat lots of corn fed beef, corn syrup beverages, corn sweetened sweets, corn starch thickened stuff, corn oil fried stuff ... am I repeating myself? Sorry.
Maybe the other extreme is the number of hours we spend communting to work and working? On one extreme people are trying to live on two or more part-time jobs that pay little of nothing and have no benefits. On the other, employers want to pay you just enough to get by with benefits but expect 50-65 hours a week.
American mega-corps yern for the good old days when people worked 70 hours every week, lived in tar-paper shacks ate bean and potatoes seven days a week, and died at age 42, long before they could hope to get a retirement check. I think they called it the industrial revolution?
Yeah, from your first post you had my point. But I doubt that those mega-corps you mentioned will never get their will on the second subject. Labourparties and other organisations are preventing that really well.
There are no polotical parties in the United States that seriously serve people. The Demopublicans and Republicrats both play to the megacorp while giving lipservice only to human beings. The social progress of Europe in the last 75 years has left American is the past.
Its also interesting to see, how some americans react on new healthcare idea. I mean if someone is afraid of turning to sosialist country, why not take middleground? Here in Finland we have both public and corporal healthcare. Basicly its garrantee of healthcare for all, but if your willing to pay extra you get threatment faster in private sector.
One wonders if Zarathustra already knew that in Europe they don't just pay to treat sick people, they pay to help people be healthy?
It is so sad that people in the USA don't get it at all. Other modern, social societies should be examined very closely. Unfortunately, most American think we are the end all and ubermensch of humankind.
I see you are from Belgium, maybe you could tell us a bit more about health care in Europe? Pros? Cons?
We're more obese then Europeans, we have more accidental deaths and murders than Europeans, and use of healthcare is subsidized. On top of this, we're a bunch of litigious motherfuckers, so doctors feel the need to do tons of tests.
And one wonders if the European health care strategy doen't take into account the adverse impacts of things like obesity? One wonders if nutritional councelling, supplementation and exercise are considered part of a European physician's health care practice. They certainly aren't part of an American physician's health care practive.
And then there are the litigations ... but who designs the laws? Oh, the same people who design medical subsidies!
Do you even know what a free market is?
bonfirejovi 1 year ago
@bonfirejovi
Sure, a free market for health care is one in which those who can afford it are free to obtain it and those who cannot are free to live in discomfort or die. Somewhere in between are those people who are free to be financial slaves in exchange for healthcare.
zthustra 1 year ago
From the BBC article -- Unhealthy living 'almost universal' in Scotland
"The Scottish results are similar to those in a recent survey of English behaviour, and suggest both nations are more unhealthy than many European countries, and even North America."
OUCH!
arrrteaawstin 1 year ago
@arrrteaawstin
"... even North America."
That totally SUCKS! I'm sorry for them.
zthustra 1 year ago
so you would rather have the american system?
i know i wouldn't, infact i don't know anyone in the UK who would!!
the NHS is the UK's greatest recource.
i think you'll be hard pushed to find any independant medical expert or economist say the american system is better when its 50% more expensive in the U.S than the UK or canada, with complete coverage for everybody (in UK anyway)
america has the worst ranking healthcare of any 1st world country, but yeah its so great
mambuduomally 2 years ago
You made some excellent points, Mambuduomally!
I'm in Minneapolis. The only health and dental care I can get is a local clinic. The man who helped me with the paperwork indirectly said I pretty much have to lie to qualify for the state program. (Can have more than $1,000 in the bank.)
I've heard people on BBC Radio whinging (a word I learned from listening to The BBC) about their NHS.
Despite a few snags, The NHS is paradise compared to the meager offerings for low income Americans.
AppleSouffle 2 years ago
i really look on in disgust/disbelief watch this whole thing. you's are the richest country in the world, you so many don't want you to take care of your citizens.
i hope you get a public option, i hope in the near future you go one better and join the rest of the civilized world and have universal healthcare.
mambuduomally 2 years ago
Thank you Mambuduomally!
It's refreshing to finally read an intelligent post about health care! I just finished reading The Swedish Secret, which compares America and Sweden.
They have total health care FOR LESS MONEY than what America spends. It was around - Sweden spends $2,200 per person each year, but America spends around $4,700 a year!
You're right, so many Americans are so selfish. They don't want to help anyone.
But there are good people here. We elected Barack!
AppleSouffle 2 years ago
the pathetic thing is EVERY country in the world spends less on healthcare, and every 1st world country has a better system.
until americans (and i don't mean to generalise here) get the idea of capitalism at all cost out their mentality then you will never progress as a society.
there are several amenities that should never be run for profit... schools, infrastucture (i.e roads, street upkeep etc) and HEALTHCARE!
you have obama, what you really need is an FDR/truman type
mambuduomally 2 years ago
Personally, I think there must be private, for-profit opportunities in educationa nd healthcare and the like IN ADDIOTION TO the social program offered by the government. Government is for ALL people, not just the socially evolved one that want to work together for a better collective living experience. Opting out, inovating, competing, etc need to be option.
eg. I think that the government should issue public money, but private money backed by gold and silver should be allowed to compete.
zthustra 2 years ago
i agree with that, the point i was making is there should and must be public services like this available.
in the UK we have the NHS, a fantastic system, but with a few flaws such as waiting times for non essential surgery. these waiting times are not generally wrong and only in cases where the patient is in no pain. if you are not happy with that then private healthcare is available and the only difference is the hospital you go to is more of a hotel and you're seen straight away regardless
mambuduomally 2 years ago
from the UK but have been watching alot of the debate on healthcare.
the amount of lies being spouted by fox news is ridiculous and its no wonder reform is so hard to achieve. the NHS has problems but it is a fantastic system. if you need treatment you get it right away and despite what fox say we don't refuse treatment to anyone, regardless of age!
mambuduomally 2 years ago
Healthcare is a scam. Everyone who watches fox's bullshit thinks "Oh if FOX is against it, it must be good" well, you know what? Fox knows that's what you'll do, so when democrats are in power, FOX starts saying the truth and the left starts bullshitting. Any medical INDEPENDANT economist will tell you, and proove you why healthcare is a scam . I don't care what people say about europe or canada, they have alot more horror stories than is told. I should know, i'm Canadian.
ExquisiteDoom 2 years ago
Good video I had to sub after watching, I have a few conservative friends who think they have no party these days. They used to be Republicans but it has been taken over by the Ultra Right Wing. I myself believe in a free market but think they have twisted this idea so far its unrecognizable.
I used to think less government was good but the recent look at Wall Street convinced me that people are like children cleaning their rooms, they hide everything in the closet & call it clean.
funeralsong34 2 years ago
I live in a relatively small state as far as population goes. We have two choices to choose from for health insurance, that' right, only two.
Employers therefore, keep changing between the two every time their contract expires and the prices only go up...
The whole system needs to be ratified.
QuestioProVerum 2 years ago
There is a huge lack of transparency with the health care system.Did you know that hospital prices are actually kind of secret (they don't have average prices per complete procedures),and the discounts that Health Insurance companies get are a very well kept secret (you as a patient are not told how much the health insurance paid, but how much you "saved".In reality,health insurance companies get over 50% discount in average. This is huge price discrimination that wouldn't pass antitrust tests.
onlyrey 2 years ago
I once managed diagnostic services and I know very well how this works. Even when you are on the inside it is a mystery what you will be paid when you send an insurance company a bill. It's even worse when it is Medicare or Medicaid. We once had a stack of computer printouts about an inch deep that had been submitted to Medicare and next to it a check from Medicare for ONE CENT. That's right, one inch of billings and one penny in payment. Any wonder non-Medicaid/Medicare patients pay so much?
zthustra 2 years ago
interesting video Zthustra.
dualranger 2 years ago
Welcome back, Z!
I have no problem with free markets, but I do have a huge problem with them being unregulated which will invariably benefit the biggest and most powerful.
After watching your video, I have to ask you - based on everything you say here, *why* would you not advocate for universal health care?
Encourage small business, regulate and tax *fairly*, and provide a social safety net. Makes sense.
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
I've been looking for a video I watched last week so I can credit the maker for inspiring me with this idea. I am a minarchist, I want my government to do less for me. But if that isn't possible, I would like my government to do whatever they do right.
I think the only reason that any of us don't want our government involved in things like medicine is that we don't trust our government to do anything right.
Harry Brown said, whatever it is you think government will do for you, they won't.
zthustra 2 years ago
Indeed, we can't imagine that the govt. would manage a health care plan advantageously. Too many congressmen concern themselves mainly with their longevity in their congressional posts regardless of the effects on the nation.
dovad16 2 years ago
That having been said, I have been finding myself in sympathy with certain progress and liberal views. NOT the pseudo-progressive or pseudo-liberal views of Democrats but the European progressive and liberal views. They have been expiramenting with models for such things as socialized medicine for 75 years or more, we should be able to learn from their successes and failures.
That's why I made this video. It is my way of saying, we don't need to lie to feel good about being un/underinsured.
zthustra 2 years ago
I did a calculation on what someone earning minimum wage in the US and Denmark respectively, earns in a month with 40 hours of work each week.
The Dane would earn just about 2.5 times as much, after taxes. that might be something to take into account too.
1stCainite 2 years ago
Thank you for doing that. It isn't easy to get numbers to figure out how we should compare. Many true progressive candidates shake their heads and wonder why so many Americans think they are better of than Europeans. I guess that ignorance is bliss.
zthustra 2 years ago
I'm sorry, but there isn't enough resources on the planet for almost 7 BILLION of its inhabitants to live the good life. It has been calculated that if everyone on the planet consumed as much as we do in America it would take four worlds to produce the fuel, raw materials and food.
I will be posting my peak oil update soon. Take a few minutes when I do to view the videos that I link.
Growth of any kind can never be sustainable ... it's a math problem not a judgement call.
zthustra 2 years ago
Net (netto) vs Gross (bruto).
The trick for government is to persuade you that you are keeping your income when you aren't. For example, the gross domestic product of the USA was just over $36,000 per capita. A family of two adults, two kids, a cat and a dog produces $142,000 but with two minumum wage jobs earns under $31,000, less $3,100 fed income tax, less $1,395 state income tax, less $1,922 employment tax, less about 8% sales tax on all purchases. AND has debt to repay!
zthustra 2 years ago
Your English is better than my Bulgarian ... or any other language. Did I mention that Americans think English is the language of the world?
The big problem with retirements isn't really the concept of keeping our old farts in a warm, safe home but trying to do that while proping up a debt-based money system that only works in a growth economy with fossil fuel as a subsitute for slave labor.
I think that in our future old folks will live with their kids ... or some other family or friends.
zthustra 2 years ago
I think that your points are good but you dont calculate how people live on avarage. What I have understood Americans lifestyle is much more radical than in UK , Sweden or Norway.
jumpperi 2 years ago
If by radical you mean we eat lots of corn fed beef, corn syrup beverages, corn sweetened sweets, corn starch thickened stuff, corn oil fried stuff ... am I repeating myself? Sorry.
Maybe the other extreme is the number of hours we spend communting to work and working? On one extreme people are trying to live on two or more part-time jobs that pay little of nothing and have no benefits. On the other, employers want to pay you just enough to get by with benefits but expect 50-65 hours a week.
zthustra 2 years ago
American mega-corps yern for the good old days when people worked 70 hours every week, lived in tar-paper shacks ate bean and potatoes seven days a week, and died at age 42, long before they could hope to get a retirement check. I think they called it the industrial revolution?
zthustra 2 years ago
Yeah, from your first post you had my point. But I doubt that those mega-corps you mentioned will never get their will on the second subject. Labourparties and other organisations are preventing that really well.
jumpperi 2 years ago
There are no polotical parties in the United States that seriously serve people. The Demopublicans and Republicrats both play to the megacorp while giving lipservice only to human beings. The social progress of Europe in the last 75 years has left American is the past.
zthustra 2 years ago
Its also interesting to see, how some americans react on new healthcare idea. I mean if someone is afraid of turning to sosialist country, why not take middleground? Here in Finland we have both public and corporal healthcare. Basicly its garrantee of healthcare for all, but if your willing to pay extra you get threatment faster in private sector.
jumpperi 2 years ago 2
>Basicly its garrantee of healthcare for all,
>but if your willing to pay extra you get
>threatment faster in private sector.
It's the same in Spain, you can choose to pay for private healthcare.
georgH 2 years ago
Long Cool Woman In A Black Dress (1972), The Hollies
zthustra 2 years ago
One wonders if Zarathustra already knew that in Europe they don't just pay to treat sick people, they pay to help people be healthy?
It is so sad that people in the USA don't get it at all. Other modern, social societies should be examined very closely. Unfortunately, most American think we are the end all and ubermensch of humankind.
I see you are from Belgium, maybe you could tell us a bit more about health care in Europe? Pros? Cons?
zthustra 2 years ago
Dave Edmunds?
zthustra 2 years ago
We're more obese then Europeans, we have more accidental deaths and murders than Europeans, and use of healthcare is subsidized. On top of this, we're a bunch of litigious motherfuckers, so doctors feel the need to do tons of tests.
Morrakiu 2 years ago
And one wonders if the European health care strategy doen't take into account the adverse impacts of things like obesity? One wonders if nutritional councelling, supplementation and exercise are considered part of a European physician's health care practice. They certainly aren't part of an American physician's health care practive.
And then there are the litigations ... but who designs the laws? Oh, the same people who design medical subsidies!
Thanks for the view and comment.
zthustra 2 years ago