Star Trek on why the U.S. should Withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan

[majorlagg1]

Interesting analogy but I don't think it holds. The Yonari people did not attack nor harbor people who attacked the Federation (Afghanistan) nor did they attack Federation allies and simultaneously construct weapons of mass destruction (Iraq). This gave Picard the luxury of holding to his pristine principles. What if Picard was able to supply an alternative to Ketrosel White and rob the Dominion of their soldiers before they attacked the Federation? 

[Vesnicie]

Why are the terms "isolationist" and "non-interventionist" being used interchangeably? They're not quite the same idea. To continue using Star Trek as metaphor, there are many examples of the Federation joining in with others' causes. They explore and "seek out new life..", so they can hardly be considered isolationist. The Prime Directive is very nuanced in its provisions for this kind of situation. I think the confusion is still ours: Non-isolationist is not equal to imperialist!

[ejcmoorhouse]

I personally believe that the world should be united like the Earth Captain Picard knows, And I believe that Democray with a clear leadership structure is the way forward. Therefore I agree with the end out come in Iraq but it'll take time to do for it to be perfected, same with Libya and the like.

[jbkibs]

@ejcmoorhouse democracy is a horrid form of government. it is simply, mob rule. 51% controls the 49%... Republic (Rule of LAW), meaning every man, woman and child is held accountable to that law, noone is exempt. In America today, we have an oligarchy. it is run by a handful of "elite" control freaks. "electoral college", "super committee", "federal reserve bank which is privately owned by a handful of the worlds wealthiest people", etc... we have many, MANY "officials" who are exempt from laws.

[ejcmoorhouse]

@jbkibs so what are you saying, evil dictatorships are better than democracy?

[moresnare]

awesome analogies... : )

[wrczane]

I just wish Star Trek was still airing new episodes like they were back the. Would be alot more educational and valuable to our current situation.

[So1othurn]

and Ron Paul can make it all happen.

[jssandler]

I generally agree with DelvarWorld. When I first posted this, some time ago, the US was still mired in Iraq/ Afg. Since then, the posting has become somewhat less relevant particularly as the US is withdrawing from Iraq. A good observation! Never-the-less, the basic premise of the episode, which is self-determination free from heavy-handed external influence, can universally apply to this or other conflicts. Good comment.

[jssandler]

For the odd-numbered commentator 36etc, could you please be more specific as to the nature of the dishonesty you have observed? In addition, please refrain from casting moral aspersions on others in the stead of intellectually rigorous debate. Comments such as 'shame' do not advance the conversation but rather serve to veil your own self doubt by dampening the spirit of debate.

[333666666]

Intellectually dishonest hijack in the name of the poster's political interest. For shame!

[DelvarWorld]

I don't really follow this, since neither Iraq nor Afghanistan want us there nor want our help, yet the race in this video is begging for it. It seems like a very different situation.

[jbkibs]

@DelvarWorld different situation, same exact concept. don't interfere in other peoples business, it always leads to unpredicted disasters... what's not to understand? want a simple analogy? you give people pain killers to ease their pain from their withdrawl and they get addicted to those... where does it end.. that's why he said "To what end?"

[jbkibs]

@DelvarWorld we could also say it does pertain, iraq nor afghanistan wanted us there nor our help right? but, those weren't the only parties involved... The UN did, however, ask for help to invade, we did, and look were we are today, 1 day closer to WW3. We invaded Iran in 53' because they were going to claim control of their own oil fields, on their own property, which was run and CONTROLLED by Britain... no mortal has a claim or right over another or anothers property. 4God and 4Liberty.

[AliTubelog]

nice well done.

US had no business going there. If they were concerned about some people, there were far better ways of dealing with it. But as you know...Politics.

[AstroTSP]

truth. Interference from the west was going on long before 9/11. The west does not need to cut itself off from the middle east, or africa or wherever. It simply has to be wise enough to know what to do in different situations that life presents. This is easy if the so called leaders of the nations of the world had the knowledge and wisdom to guide them and the courage to hold to absolute truth. Great video.

[tubehows4life]

The TNG philosophy was light years ahead of its time.

[masere]

"Ensign, prepare to withdraw all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan."

Yar - "WTF Captain????"

[knowpassword]

I love these early episodes when you can hear the creaking of the wooden floor on the the set of the bridge

[MJD1701A]

we did untangle the US out of Afganistan in the 1980's only to have Bin Laden come and drag us back in. Are you suggesting that we should NOT have gone into Afganistan after 9/11/2001? Just a question nothing more.

[LoneRookRS1]

@MJD1701A America has been entangled in Middle-Eastern affairs for decades, largely for oil and political leverage. Many Americans believe it is their God-given duty to spread democracy and occupy countries they consider a threat to the West. In many ways, one can understand the hatred expressed by many people in these countries. While we shine lights at Ground Zero, the thousands of families dead in Afghanistan and Iraq have no such testament. We should have let them change themselves.

[SSJZTrunks91]

I know this entire topic is controversial, but I want to praise use for excellence use of this clip. I've seen other YouTubers post clips of Star Trek to promote biased views, but you chose a clip that really supported your argument. No omitted dialogue, nothing taken out of context. My own views on this subject might be a little different than yours, but as a Trekkie you have my respect. Here's to hoping we one day see this future become a reality.

[AeronPeryton]

"Never had an episode on the Operline system, so it must have been boring." haha. Would have loved for there to have been an episode of run of the mill ship operations and nothing more. Guess I'll have to make due with Data's Day.

[majorlagg1]

@AeronPeryton see also "Lower Decks"

[LoneRookRS1]

"It is a philosophy and a very correct one". I felt tears in the back of my eyes when I heard Picards reassurring wisdom :')

Speaks very true of today as well. How many have suffered and died because of US involvement in the middle-east? Islam may have been much more peaceful towards the West if it wasn't for our interferences across history.

[ElTee842]

I think this says more about your judgment of the Middle East than anything against what the US has done, analogizing Iraq and Afghanistan with 'primitive' societies. They may not have the same pervasive technology and infrastructure that the US has, but to think that they're incapable of processing innovation/improvement is just wrong, in my opinion.

[BloodW0rx2]

I guess the creator of this video doesn't understand what happened on the 11th of September 2001, you're logic about non-intervention in less developed societies by using star trek metaphors is all well and good when these societies can literally be cut off by the vastness of space, but what you have failed to realise is that the West cannot just cut itself off from the middle east, as 9/11 proved.

[jssandler]

Upon reviewing this clip, I can see how that might be one interpretation. My intention was not to suggest isolationism as the preferred course, but at the very least a removal of ground forces and, generally speaking, a non-interventionist approach (at least in the prime directive sense). Spying, subterfuge, and special forces are all good as Joe Biden and I agree. But 2 occupying forces at $10 Billion/ day, we could fund a railroad across the U.S. in just 10 days! ($5 M/ mile)

[BloodW0rx2]

@jssandler And how pray tell would you protect the borders of the free world without exercising military forces? In an increasingly globalised world the only other way to protect the country and it's interests is complete isolationism.

[Ahdanack]

@BloodW0rx2 You are implying that Iraq was behind 9/11. That is not the case.

The most accepted cause of 9/11 was the terrorist group Al-Qaeda, which, contrary to the word bending and lies put out by the Bush administration, do not operate through any major systems in Iraq.

[BloodW0rx2]

@Ahdanack I do not believe we should have been in Iraq, it was a completely unjustifiable war. The only reason I believe we should be in Afghanistan is because of 9/11.

[LeonSkottKennedey]

@BloodW0rx2 you would hav a valid point, exzept it was interference in the middle east over the last half century that kaused sep attacks

[BloodW0rx2]

@LeonSkottKennedey Not to mention religion, politics and history going back not just fifty years but hundreds of years. All I'm saying is that using star trek analogies for the middle east is illogical since the west and the middle east, in a globalised world, are unable to disentangle themselves.

[LeonSkottKennedey]

@BloodW0rx2 we kann untangel ourselves, it ist only a process av doing so ^^

[richie8811]

@BloodW0rx2 Iraq didn't attack us. Case closed. 

[BloodW0rx2]

@richie8811 Who said I supported a war in Iraq? I support defending our borders against any external threat as stated in article 5 of the NATO charter "an attack on any member shall be considered to be an attack on all." hence why I believe Afghanistan to be a justifiable war and Iraq not. There was no reason for a war in Iraq particularly from Britain, Blair really wanted to suck up to Bush at the time and sending in the British Army with US forces was the biggest brown nosing I've ever seen.

[CountArtha]

@BloodW0rx2 Your rebuttal assumes that 9/11 happened before the United States and the West started to intervene in the Middle East and Central Asia.

[BloodW0rx2]

@CountArtha Not at all, my rebuttal was there to show how significant an event 9/11 was to understanding the complex intertwined relationship the west has with the middle east, this goes back through centuries (not just decades) of history that cannot be undone. My only point was that a isolationist philosophy, as I thought was being proposed by the video creator, is impossible in an increasingly globalised world, hence the Star Trek analogy does not work.

[halocekicksass]

This beats Janeway's stupid concerned faces and convoluted reasoning any day.

[FuriousImp]

Haven't you heard? The West is there for oil. Not to right wrongs. That's just political story to get the support of the people. Nope, it's about resources. Cheap (free) oil.

[TiltedArc11]

erm...excuse me a minute...but it isn't just the US in Afghanistan. The there are a great deal of NATO forces, The United Nations, and other aid organisations trying to bring stability to this country and tackle the ever-present threat of terrorism to our civilians and there are currently hundreds of thousands of our people and the people of Afghanistan and their neighbours that are doing their very best and risking their lives for our security and their hope for a better future.Conspiracy nuts.

[MGGoblin]

US is not in Irak for democracy... is there for the oil . And it's not in Afghanistan for the talibans, but for the opium to produce heroine... =( don't be silly guys...

[chrischinchilla2]

Well done and absolutely correct!

[1BustedMyth]

When they come for YOU who will be left to help you?

I prefer diplomacy and debate, but sometimes force is the only thing that will be understood. You are a decent civilised person, thats why you can't understand how incredibly evil some humans are.

You might like to look into what the Taliban do to Northern Alliance members when they catch them.

[jssandler]

The comment suggests the only alternative to direct military engagement is apathy and complacency. However, my video edit does not advocate complacency, only withdrawal of the military. The paraphrasing of Martin Niemolier's poem about German apathy regarding the rise of Nazism is an attempt to frighten those who legitimately advocate a less militaristic approach toward confronting radical religious terrorism. Joe Biden and I advocate a less blunt approach to achieve the best results.

[1BustedMyth]

@jssandler ,

No you do not understand my point of view at all.

I completly support non military solutions at all times, sadly when a situation is already out of control and you have armed malitia running the country murdering anyone who does not do what they want, you can't turn up in a business suit to talk to them. Military are their to back up a Police force in an out of control situation.

I am not saying Iraq and Afghanistan have been handled well, they have not.

[1BustedMyth]

@jssandler ,

Its fine to sit and talk on a computer in the west, with electricity and food in our fridge and relative safety and freedom of expression and religion, but most people have absolutly no idea what goes on in a war zone, I do and it keeps me awke at night. I have many friends who have been involved in violent conflict and bare the scars, as I do.

I always prefer diplomacy, but their are people who would much rather kill you than talk to you.

Hitler, Sadan, Osama, Pol Pot.

[jssandler]

I thank you for your comments. You seem like a reasonable person with a slightly different world view than I. However, just because I have electricity and a refrigerator doesn't make me naive. Most leaders of countries have also not experience conflict first-hand (Obama, for example). Your first-hand experiences have merit, but so does being removed and able to weigh costs/ benefits without emotional encumbrance. For me, harms of recent military engagement have outweighed benefits.

[jssandler]

As for those who favor killing over talking, they certainly can't be negotiated with. But it doesn't mean you have to run at them with a club, screaming. Carry a big stick, walk softly. I'd rather see the U.S. be a Kung Fu master with pinpoint strikes using its head, rather than the WWF wrestler tromping around the ring. With Obama, I'm hopeful we'll start to see than shift.

[1BustedMyth]

@jssandler ,

I'm a mixed origine Australian and have grown up understanding Gorilla warefare, firstly the IRA, due to having both English and Irish Ancestors, the level of violence was extreme, we even had two Aussie Soldiers murdered by mistake, while on holiday infront of their girlfriends.

I completly agree, in most cases walking qietly with a big stick is best. Sometimes we have to be very carefull however because hearts and minds are won over by extremists first, while you don't notice.

[ZBRMusic]

@1BustedMyth

I disagree on the notion that extremists wins hearts and minds of the general population. They rather instill fear and oppression onto the people to keep them in line with their points of view. It is generally called "stateterrorism", when applied to a system of governance, i.e. the fear of jews, fear of communists, fear of muslims or any other grouping of people. This also happens in out so-called free democratic societies in the west, you can't open a newspaper without spotting it

[1BustedMyth]

@ZBRMusic, I agree. Almost all the time that is the case. The Bangladesh floods however have seen a different approach, terrorist groups are simply setting up large kitchens feeding the hungry, when the state leaves them starving, sadly it works.

There are no solid positions/rules for any of these incredibly complex problems, wish there was, each has to be approached on its own merits at the time. Even my views have changed a great deal in the last 12 months. Nothing is ever concrete.

[1BustedMyth]

@jssandler ,

The reason i mentioned Hitler was because of what i know of the situation that saw him gane control, many good Germans were caught asleep at the wheel, they thought this lunatic would simply go away and that common sense would prevail, it didn't! and the rest is history. Just recently I have started to feel we are seeing the same thing over with Islam in the UK, France, Australia. These people claim to be very peacefull, but only in public. "Fatwah"

[MGGoblin]

@jssandler With Obama, you'll only see more war...

[ElTee842]

@MGGoblin What? He's been president for a while now, and I haven't heard of him starting any other wars.

[MGGoblin]

@ElTee842 Before even being elected, Obama ordered the unilateral bombing of north west Pakistan, the CIA has killed Benazhir Butto, overtrowed a democratically elected government and killed many innocent women, men and children. And Obama ordered this. The fact that the controlled mass media does not give you the appropiate information does not mean it is not happening. Good luck! =)

[ElTee842]

@MGGoblin Before he was elected? Hate to break it to you, but a Senator can't give the military orders. Mustafa Abu al-Yazid claimed responsibility for her death in the name of Al-Qaeda. While death of civilians in a war is regrettable, it is not a war crime since the civilians were never targeted deliberately. You seem to fail in knowing the basic concepts of the Law of Armed Conflict. And what government would that be?

[MGGoblin]

@ElTee842 And you fail in knowing the basic concepts of politics and power, those are: Never follow the rules. Obama was putted in office by Zbignew Brzezinski and the Trilateral Comission, and of course the corporate media (that does not tell you the truth, only what they want you to believe) has never being behind a president like they are behind Obama. Obama was putted in the White House to simply save Wall Street my friend. Period.

[ElTee842]

@MGGoblin I didn't know a president could be 'putted' into power. I'm pretty sure he was elected through a national election and won enough electoral votes to be sworn in as president. Did you just pick a random person out of a hat? I don't think someone in appointed office during the Carter administration would have much influence 30 some-odd years later. It must be convenient for you that none of what you've said can be substantiated.

[1BustedMyth]

@jssandler ,

Thankyou for yours, please don't ever think there is a lack of respect just because i don't agree with a view, its not personal.

There is a difference between being nieve and simply not having experienced a situation first hand. I was lucky enough to be born into this quality of life thats all.

For the most part i agree, civilian casualties number around a million I believe, un armed, un trained, men woman and children.

[1BustedMyth]

@jssandler ,

Iraq was a lie from day 1 on behalf of Bush and his mates, they never cared about democracy or the general welfare of Iraqi citizens or for that matter their own troops. There are many troops who genuinly care about the local people and giving them a better life who work hard to win their trust, then Rumsfeld signes a document oking torture and laughs about it. What do you think this does for trust on the streets in Iraq, that we are not just there for oil or religion?

[1BustedMyth]

@jssandler ,

Sadly many ex military people are not good politions, because they are biast and will use the power to settle old scores. Bush deserted when he was called up, while serving in the national guard, strangly this incident has well and truly been swept under the carpet, her never actually served!.

I know of people here who are so disgusted with the whole affair with our involvement in Iraq they are considering leaving the military. We see ouselves as a defence force or peaceker only.

[bluesforgordon]

Both of you are well-educated, simply in different schools of thought... it seems that the answer has been proven through you, collectively, with this debate as its own object-lesson. Here we have two, not-so-divergent, yet staunchly and rigidly defended opinions. You both acknowledge the others' right to opinion, yet refuse to sway or acquiesce. Last option? Escalate the fight until one is exhausted of resources. I make this observation 3rd party, and LEAVE, as U.S. SHOULD HAVE long ago.

[samsticka]

Very Ron Paul-like.