And Scrayfish, when you brought up John Lee Hooker that was another sign you had no clue because Elmore James was far more influential than Hooker. Hooker's main influence was primarily Blues. Elmore 'King of the slide guitar" influenced Brian Stone [Rolling Stones], Stevie Ray Vaughan, Fleetwood Mac's guitarist, Jimi Hendricks, Frank Zappa, Lennon, Elvis, Harrison,; hence Elmore's techique carried over into almost all Genres unlike Hookers! Now tear this one up! There isn't enough room here!
And Dyintryin, i never questioned your knowledge just your ability to communicate which was initially quite juvinile.....And learn to focus debates and arguments. And so you have been playing professionally for 18 years. Nice! I've got 34 years and still know when to shut my mouth or tread carefully. Even with Buddy Guy who i can't stand! Many Black musicians think whites stole from them. DThat's another debate for sure and certainly not true!
Now you mentioned 2 drummers early in our verbal battle and what i can unequivocally state is that Bill Stewart can't hold a candle to John Riley. And the best source of critique is the listener and that is why Dunlop and Steward didn't get the level of recognition. They were not amazing enough to make that mark! Plain and simple. You can disagree all you want but it's the patron that an artist that has to convince because that is how the business works and that's how to make a living!
@spider336699 What "listener" gets to decide? All the listeners in the world? I guess that would make Keith Moon the greatest drummer who ever lived. And does the fact that Eddie Blackwell never got the recognition he deserved mean he wasn't one of the best? In any event, give Bill Stewart time. He is one of the most original and gifted players of all time and beats the heck out of me why that burns you up.
@Scrayfish0 Your entitled to your opinion and i respect it, but no one you've mentioned is in a class with Art Blakey [who's technique is poor but sounds legendary], Max Roach, Buddy Rich, Philly Jo, Philly Joe Jones, just to name a few. A legend and 'Master' makes what their doing look easy.And don't forget Rufus Jones. Most of you weren't even born. And last to date we have Clayton Cameron and Marvin Smitty Smith! No one you have mentioned can hold a candle to any i just mentioned.
@Scrayfish0 The other thing you fail to realize is that the ones i have mentioned not only played well, but made it look easy and took the listener beyond what they could imagined. I am 50 years old and back in my day the listener new when you blew trading 4's 8's, etc. They also knew when musicians played standards incorrectly and they knew what 'swinging' truly was unlike many of you youngsters today!
@spider336699 Guess what? I'm 60 years old and I have an international reputation and what you say makes no sense whatsoever. I love the fact the fact you love Art Blakely-and guess what? I love Art Blakely too! But anyone who doesn't recognize that Eddie Blackwell-and guess who?-Gene Krupa-were geniuses simply doesn't "get it"!! These cats had personality & could move people to tears.And before your start dissing Krupa, just remember he was one of Duke's most favorite drummers!
@Scrayfish0 Marvin "Smitty" Smith - Greensleeves (w/ Drum Solo) (HQ) Duke Ellington Masters - drum solo Stan Levey "The Original Original"
Now get a clue because you clearly know not enough to debate with a drummer with 34 years experience on a ticket with Sonny Rollins at 18 years old who started playing professionally at age 15 who's 3rd teacher was a buddy rich protege'!
@Scrayfish0 1] Since i used to trade for George Soros, and my cousin is a famous footballer [a leading scorer for Stoke City and Tottenham and who now broadcasts for the BBC, and since i have another family member that is one of the most successful investment advisors throughout portugal and spain, and being of aristocracy i highly doubt your international rep is even close to my Family's or me. Now focus like a 'laser beam' because i am now going to waste time providing you with an education!
@spider336699 Well that's all very interesting; some of it I knew and some I didn't. But your family history has nothing to do with my reputation as a musician, nor yours to b honest.I would think someone as grand as yourself would have better things to do than tear down Bill Stewart. You just sound angry and bitter and your posts to the other readers are pompous and rude. Get a grip. And b.t.w., check out Eddie Blackwell's solo on Eric Dolphy Live at the Five Spot volume 2.
@Scrayfish0 You brought up the 'internation reputation crap. You are the one that strays from the debate, not me! Take you licking or don't go there. FOCUS LIKE A LASER BEAM! Can you do that?
@Scrayfish0 2] Blakey was a piano player [a percussion instrument] and band leader by the time he was i think 13 or 14 which started in the church and taught himself to play drums which is why his grip and technique was so awkward technically. Most trained percussionist learn a similar pattern in treble and bass clef [there are others] for training their hearing. Significant if you want to learn to play Jazz, Be-Bop, and Big Band! And he was a damn excellent piano player and that was a huge....
@Scrayfish0 2a]...factor in his ability to swing like no other. No time here to tell you why i had issues with him personally but i did meet him and frequented the Jazz Showcase in Chicago every time he was there a along with Bill Cosby and a host of other famous people. I was about19 years old. Much of what he knows he got from Chick Webb! The polyrhythmic style was developed when he visited Africa. In addition was his contribution featuring new talent. Not enough space for the names.
@Scrayfish0 3] I have responded to your 'Blackwell' so now Krupa! He became famous playing with Benny Goodman and one of his most incredible contributions was being the first to record with a full set of drums; working with Armand Zildjian he perfected the names and playing techniques for the various cymbals;i.e. hi-hat, ride, splash, pang, crash. Although he was formally trained by Sandford A. Moeller it was Baby Dodds who had the greatest influence. Why is this significant?
@spider336699 Well you know your history, I will give you that! You used Blackwell's limited celebrity as proof somehow that he is not such a great drummer, so by implication Krupa, arguably the most popular of all drummers, is the best. On the other hand, it became very fashionable to diss Krupa and the animus behind dissing him was that he was so successful. The fact is these are all greaqt drummers who had real musical personalites and there's no point picking them apart.
@Scrayfish0 No they are not all great drummers and the listener is the final word, musician or not for the most part. Blackwell isn't and it's that simple. I said i respected your opinion, what more do you want. I don't agree with you, period and i am explaining why. Focus!
@Scrayfish0 .3a] It is key because when Big Bands started dying and BeBop came into fruition and Dodd who was credited with 'inventing the modern ride cymbal pattern' and absolute perfection playing press rolls [which is frowned upon in military bugle corp drumming] limited Krupa's ability to adapt to the high rate of speed that Buddy Rich and Papa Jo Jones were virtually unmatched at until later years. Papa Jo was also the first to promote the use of Brushes. Philly Jo produced a book called..
@spider336699 Papa Jo was indeed a giant and ...I saw him sobbing uncontrollably at Krupa's funeral, by the way. So we are on the same page here. We all know that Buddy was a freak and in a class by himself technically, but to me he was a very cold musician and ultimately very uninteresting as a musical personality. Of course Krupa was no match for Buddy (no one was except maybe Morello who was more musical) but Krupa out-grooved Rich by a country mile in my humble opinion.
@Scrayfish0 Buddy was a perfectionist and and a prodigy, like Tesla, and Einstein and many others. That's par for the personality! Even Papa Jo was easliy irritated, irascible, and had a combative temprament. It's documented in many places!
@Scrayfish0 ..3b]..."Brush Artistry". Out of print today but i still have the book and i practice the 12 basic brush rudiments daily still today; [Conventional Stroke/ SmoothOne/ Palm Up/ Trill/ Tense/ Tippin'/ The Cup/ Half and Half/ Eyes/ Shufflingit/ Sweepingit/ and FancyFancy]! And i have the Preimier 555 Brushes he used and they are at least 33 years old! Copyright 1968! Dodds was also kept the beat with the bass drum also prevalent in Krupa's playing! Krupa was virtually...
@Scrayfish0 ..3c] ..unmatched as a showman during his time. All you can say was that he was a genius and you don't even know why! Even Buddy Rich was quoted saying similar. "Flamboyant and highly energetic"! People love it! Done here cause i am running out of time. Now for Duke Ellington!
@Scrayfish0 ..4] What is clearly evident is that you are not trained in music and if you are you didn't study it's history or theory and are clearly not the remnant of the listener i describe who had no experience at all but knew when the standards were played incorrectly and another key person that was instrumental in creating standardized arrangements was Jelly Roll Morton who laid much of the foundation for a lot of it for Duke and many others. It was Chick Webb......
@Scrayfish0 ..4a] ..in my opinion that was the real 'King of Swing' and if you read the accounts of the professional 'Lindy Hoppers' and the playoffs between Goodman and Webb you'd not have stated my comments were moronic! Chick and Benny played the exact same arrangements! And as far as Duke saying that Krupa was his favorite drummer? Ludicrous! Krupa even admits during the first playoff Webb outdid him!
@spider336699 You can look it up yourself in Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz: Duke clearly indicated Krupa among his favorites. Krupa was a modest guy and by all accounts Chick was a demon who could burn anybody-but that doesn't detract from Krupa. All you seem to understand about music is technique, history and cliches, but that does not show musical knowledge.Why don't you post the your life story so we can understand why you are so angry and easily threatened? I'm done.
@spider336699 See, even if you are presented with a pure, simple, fact, you wiggle out of it with a ludicrous explanation. I could give you my professional bio, any one of 15-20 CD recordings, dozens and dozens of reviews in The NY Times & elsewhere, articles I've written, awards I've won, and you would deny that too. As for your other rantings, you've proven nothing but that you must be an extremely difficult person to live with. I'm sorry for you & done writing for good.
@Scrayfish0 Pot calling the kettle 'black' is how i see it! You started it period. I refuse to take it. I took the time to explain my case and i started saying i 'respected you opinion. Re- read it again!
@Scrayfish0 -And by the way even Riley says, "The 4 qaulities necessary to be a great player are ""technique"" [DUH/ my initial argument], groove, creativity, and musicianship". Hence technique has the greatest priority because it keeps you working. This point you somehow missed. Technique is the reason we have standards & jingles. You could give me your professional bio? Still waiting. Don't write checks with your mouth your body can't cash!
@spider336699 I know who I am and you don't know who I am and I'd rather keep it that way if you don't mind. If you want to think I'm an idiot in need of your wisdom I don't want to spoil your fun, but your "insights" strike me as pretty superficial though I did learn a few historical facts from you (thanks). As for technique, Monk and John Lee Hooker didn't have a lot of it, yet they are giants, so the truth is: you only need enough technique to "play your shit."
@Scrayfish0 1] Look man, you are like the jigsaw puzzle sitting on a table that has never been finished because you continually fail to complete putting all the pieces together. There was a racial element called 'Jim Crow' and 'segregation' and that is why i do not believe that Duke truely believed that Krupa was his favorite drummer. Most of the cats that played with Duke made Krupa's playing look elementary. It would have served Duke no advantage saying anything negative.....
@Scrayfish0 1a].....Nor would it have worked in Duke's favor to not recognize Krupa's contribution utilizing all of the aspects of a 'full drum set'. when Sachmo died they found tapes of his frustration with Whites. When Miles asked his Father for permission to leave Julliard it was because he thought his formal training was too eurcentric. Miles was a second generation musician and it was his parents, more the Mother than Father that insistent he get a formal education only to admit later..
@Scrayfish0 1b] ...that he never would have gotten as far in Music as he did without that training. Again supporting my argument of how important the technical and academic aspect of music was and still is today. Also there was a 'code of honor' that existed amongst all musicians in the early part of the 20th century that clearly doesn't exist today and you are a clear example of that lost 'code of honor'.
@Scrayfish0 1c] Cliche means, "something that has become overly familiar or commonplace", i.e "standards"! so i stand guilty i guess, along with hundreds of others that are Masters in their fields! And i am not angry or easily threatened, but for some reason i guess i am suppose to be happy because my rhetoric is moronic? I have no doubt i could beat the hell out of you and then maybe a good beating long- deserved would stop you short of insulting people because they can formulate ideas....
@Scrayfish0 1d]......beyond your comprehension which is why you keep adding rhetoric steering away from the basic debate we are having. And Scray, like i said Riley is no Master. He doesn't make it look easy and works to hard. and i don't even know what instrument you play and you are clearly the one afraid of being criticized! You have done this and that but refuse to show me because you have already anticipated that i would 'deny that to'. Your words not mind. Guess you still....
@Scrayfish0 1e].....have stage fright and desperately need a fan club because the fright is of 'criticism' because you think you have it all figured out. I personally don't need others accolades and praise to be confident in my abilities. And at this stage i am guessing your white as well because most blacks, like Satchmo, pretty much kept what they really thought to themselvesor recorded it and just tucked it away. Read Miles Davis' autobiograhy....
@Scrayfish0 Now Thelonius. He and Miles got into it and like me supposedly being angry Miles was very much like Papa Jo and Buddy Rich! Him and Monk almost got into a fight and it was well documented during the times! Monk was the most recorded composer after Ellington. Monk also had formal training in addition to being self- taught and often was around listening to his sister's lessons and like many he started actively in the church! So again you are incorrect about Monk.
@spider336699 Wait! I never said Monk wasn't trained, I said he didn't have a lot of technique, but he didn't need a lot of technique to be a giant. Also, I never said Krupa was Duke's favorite drummer, he was listed among them. Also, Duke was a very powerful musician and had a lot of gigs, so he didn't have to suck up to Krupa. Basie didn't list Krupa, and he didn't get hurt. Finally, I never called you a moron, I said one of your comments about Bill Stewart was moronic.
@Scrayfish0 I assume you know who John Scofield is? Well Miles thought pretty highly of Sco, right? So who is Sco's first call drummer? Well if it isn't Bill Stewart himself! Ditto Pat Metheny. So who do you think people are going to believe, Spiderman or Sco? I'm not saying you gotta like Bill Stewart, but to brag on YouTube that nobody knows more than you because you opened for Sonny Rollins 25 years ago is really struttin' some. You may be a great drummer, that's not the point.
@spider336699 Why thank you for listening! If you can conduct a truly respectful dialogue a keep focus (I know you think I am focused, but I can never follow you either), then I will glad to answer you. Now I will tell you why I like Krupa, and you are free to disagree. It is true he was influenced by Baby Dodds and Chick Webb, he was the first person to admit that. And yes, he was never the technician that many of the drummers you cite. But the man could groove, not like Sid...
@Scrayfish0 Catlett (different feel), or Davey Tough or those guys, but in his own way. In addition, the man had style (in spite of influences). I can tell it's Krupa within two seconds, and I'm not talking about records I've heard. Next, he phrased his ass off, there is humor, wit and soul in his playing and people get. The showmanship is in the playing. You can dance to any of his solos and you hear joy. Now, you accused me of repeating what other people say, but this is how I feel
@Scrayfish0 ...and a lot of other musicians too. Roy Haynes thought he was a gas and so did Jo Jones and lots more. Now, if I must acknowledge what is so important to you, OF COURSE I'VE HEARD OF JIM CROW. Now don't go crazy on me Mr. Spiderman or I won't answer you again.
@Scrayfish0 Oh...I forgot, it's try Rufus "Speedy" Jones could do blindingly fast double strokes, raising his arms above his head, but to my ears, which you may think are lame, he was just a machine with very little personality but lots of drive. Sam Woodyard, on the other hand was a groove-master; that's my kind of playing.
@Scrayfish0 No your not focused and i can follow you just fine! No he couldn't groove like the others, that was the argument and difference of opinions!. Krupa is in no class with Blakey or Bellson. He was a great showman and utilized terms and traps equipment better than anyone. I am sure this will get spammed as well so hopefully you'll see my responses before some liberal jerk spams me again!
@Scrayfish0 Again you deviate from the original debate. I have explained and articulated things well above! Scofield has proven himself and if Bill stewart did play guitar he'd not have made the mark! And i know Pat Matheny and Paul Wertico! What else can you throw this way.Pathetic, dude! And i never said i knew more than anyone. I just question things that clearly do not fit!
@Scrayfish0 Remember that jigsaw puzzle analogy? You'll never finish it! You haven't a clue, again. Adding things that deviate from the original debate. My debate is not with people but with you. Unlike you i don't care what people think because i grew up with and around many of the names you have mentioned or knew people that knew many of the names you mentioned personally. So much so many got on me for my hiatus from music!
@Scrayfish0 I am top tier period, socially, intellectually. If i were asked to do clinics or reviews, critiques, or anything that allowed the public eyes to focus. I'd say 'NO!". What people thin is that unimportant to me. there's no fulfillment whatsoever! I wouldn't even do drum clinics. My second teacher was just under Chapin for producing legendary percussionists. But he couldn't swing worth shit and was clearly no match for Chapin and a player of influence, but he taught old school!
@Scrayfish0 And my second teacher was an exceptional teacher. He made you work and a certain way for many good reasons you could never fathom. Sad to me how so many drummers have no foundation. Most know tricks and possess no versatility whatsoever! Your boy Stewart works a set of drums like a jet flying in wind shear! And so we are clear i am speaking from a technical point of view. His sounds are superb! He just looks like a dork doing it! That's my issue! Hence he doesn't make it look easy!
@Scrayfish0 In layman's terms, he works harder than he needs to! It's that simple. Art Blakey plays like that to but Steward can't even hold a candle to that level of groove!
@Scrayfish0 If Stewart could groove that well we'd not even be having the conversation. My issues with Blakey is that he adopted a system of belief of Africa's first slave masters. Europeans were not the 1st to industrialize slavery of Blacks. Art also liked the young 'white girls'! Hypocracy! Loved him as a player because he was a legend most of his life. didn't agree with his political views at all and that matters to me unlike many!
@Scrayfish0 The listeners today care nothing about what's correct and fail to even understand why things are done a certain way, be in playing an instrument, or being a surgeon! There's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Like the term 'kick drum'. It's called a bass drum for a reason and much of it has to do with it's origins and it's sound on the staff and sound register!
@Scrayfish0 I opened for Sonny 32 years ago and this is exactly my problem with you. You only see what you want and again are so myopic in your thought process you will never be able to 'connect the dots', ever!
@Scrayfish0 The moral or the story is simply this, too many have made mistakes to get it right; hence there is no reason the 'reinvent the wheel'! Many have forgotten how we got here as a civilization with all of the advancements! It's about perfecting your art then advancing from where the greats left off without forgetting the foundations that allowed us to enjoy what we do today!
@Scrayfish0 Monk 1] Monk was also not a 1st generation musician which explains much of his natural ability. I am a 4th generation and i have cousins in New York and Jamaica that have a huge follwing [underground out East] and huge in Jamaica!
@Scrayfish0 Now John Lee Hooker! All the Blues and folk guitarist i know are constantly mesmerized by his technique. I don't play guitar but what i do understand is that he did incredible things with his fingers. Hi stepfather was a major influence and so was the 'boogie woogie' piano style. This is your cliche and it is technical in nature. Called commonly the A_B_A format and he was home school. Now the was no 'formal trainging' in the sense of academic..............
@Scrayfish0 Hooker 1] ... schooling but there was 'in the school of hard knox'. It's just as relavent and again he set standards and that's the part you keep missing. And the simple fact is that the 'John Hookers' are rare and that is why schooling is so important. Just like a Doctor or a Lawyer there have been precedents set for others to follow and the fact is most musicians are not born with gifts so prevalent and that is the reason for technique. Hence, there is a never a reason........
@Scrayfish0 2] ...to reinvent 'the wheel'. By now your brain looks like testicles turn right side up with a scrotum of clear membrane. I am sure after this you with bring up something else that deviates from the debate because you are obsessed with proving something which you clearly have from your response. Learning something you didn't know and disareeing for the sake of being disagreeable!
@Scrayfish0 Send me your stuff dude. I have a feeling you are passionate about what you do and that alone means your probably incredible at what you do. Surprised? You have misread me huge! And sorry but feather although a Jew is still white. Even today many Black musicians in private feel the way saatchmo does in will never admit it to anyone white unless they have proven themselves to be trustworthy enough. I know that for sure!
@spider336699 About Feather: that book is just a compilation of historical facts about jazz musicians. I have no regard for his critical opinion, nor for Nat Hentoff or any other dumb-ass music critic. Hentoff was the biggest suck-up trying to be cool there ever was. But Feather was supposed to be a truly nice guy and he loved jazz so you can't hold that against him.
@Scrayfish0 1] 'Jim Crow' and 'segregation' cannot be ignored and cannot be left out when talking about the history of any genre of music in America! I said nothing about whether i liked or disliked Feather; but as a Jew, since they were the ones that started the civil rights movement and the NAACP, i find it disturbing that you make no mention. I have not read Feather's book and do not need to and again you bring in subject matter into our debate that has nothing to do with what we are....
@Scrayfish0 ............talking about. Who cares whether he was a nice guy. the fact is the Savoy allowed mixed ethnic and racial patronage and the Cotton Club did not. I find it difficult to believe that Duke Ellington's favorite drummer was Gene Krupa because of the dynamics of 'Jim Crow' and 'segregation'! Benny Goodman was not the 'King of Swing' based on the Black experience! The playoff at the Savoy between Goodman and Chick Webb clearly illustrates that!
@spider336699 Spiderman, my friend, you have lost me entirely (again). You were the one to bring up Leonard Feather in the first place, which I assumed you did to invalidate what I said about Duke liking Krupa. Inotherwords, because Feather was white, even though he was a Jew, whatever he said could not be true. Is that what you meant to say? My point was that Feather was simply recording what all those cats he interviewed told him. The book was a bunch of little bios with pix
@Scrayfish0 I didn't bring up Feather. I didn't even know who the fuck he was until you brought him up. And this is the primary issue with your myopic and narrowed thinking. No doubt in my mind you are liberal of some sorts. Like the moronic comment. I knew you said 'my comment was moronic'. But as usual you try to turn it around as if i said you called me a moron directly.the word implies 'stupidity'. Might as well call me stupid!
@Scrayfish0 2] You have no concept of diplomacy or respectful dialogue. JUST LIKE the Monk part of the debate. And the fact that he was not a first generation musician and the fact he was surrounded by things that nurtured his innate talent directly. And while you are disagreeing with me you make no reference to what i added and freely add new things to the debate and i reference it and you add something else.
@Scrayfish0 And by the way my real name is, Beethoven; Not Spiderman! Scrayfish Quotes,//// "As for technique, Monk and John Lee Hooker didn't have a lot of it, yet they are giants, so the truth is: you only need enough technique to "play your shit.""
"@spider336699 You can look it up yourself in Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz: Duke clearly indicated Krupa among his favorites."
See, even if you are presented with a pure, simple, fact, you wiggle out of it with a ludicrous explanation
@Scrayfish0 I could have run with the idiot comment but i have already eloquently explained what your problem is. Like i said you cannot talk about the history of any genre of music and not talk about Jim Crow or segregation. When Blacks traveled they didn't even have access to the entrances that whites did. Many time Black musicians slept in their vehicles, had to be careful where they traveled. That experience and many was a factor in how they approached things. Since you don't....
@Scrayfish0 ...have the ability to see things beyond your myopic scope of the world or visualize things peripherally I thought i'd help you out. Hence why i made the comment that you are like the perpetual jigsaw puzzler that sees things only in parts instead of mentally and intellectually trying to complete the entire puzzle. You repeatedly fail to connect the dots. The Rolling Stones, Beatles, many whites have used Black talent for their source and many times not paying proper tributes!
@Scrayfish0 1] And i never stated that what Feather said wasn't true. Again i will repeat it, of course not verbatim. Feather was a Jew and they started the civil rights movement and the NAACP. It bothers me that he made no reference to Jim Crow and segregation. As a general rule Blacks are still to some extent angry about segregation and the Louis Armstrong tapes found after his death clearly illustrate this! And i also grew up with many famous Blacks in entertainment and....
@Scrayfish0 2] And there are things today that they will not talk about with whites, period! And the few whites that do make it into that fraternity of secret dialogue about their struggles are few and in person they can confirm what i have just stated. Duke and all musicians before 1960 had a code of honor. It would have served no purpose to badmouth/ and or not recognize Krupa's accomplishments on any scale since he played white clubs. If Krupa was one of Duke's favorites.....
@Scrayfish0 3] ...it was political. Everyone of Ellington's drummers blew Krupa out of the water! Even Bellson was a better drummer! Krupa's greatest contribution was defining to use of all the components of the drum set. Krupa even had Slingerland build a tunable floor tom. Pure genius! Now go ahead and say something i didn't say. Some advice for you, 'is to think just a little before you reply!
@Scrayfish0 And you are aware that Louis Bellson was married to a Black woman, right? If he were alive he'd confirm what i just stated about Black musicians basically not trusting whites. Some years ago i was with a famous Black musician who was in Chicago playing with David Sanborn. He had nothing but complaints about Sanborn and Sanborn's biggest influence was a black man Bennie Ross "Hank" Crawford, Jr [Ray Charles]. You getting the picture here, Scrayfish? Sanborn has never given dues....
@Scrayfish0 2] Sanborn continued..............or given the respect for his greatest influence which happens to be racial and cultural and this is the general standard of thought towards many white musicians since so many were influenced significanly by Black players; hence the reason for continued animosity. Again Dunlop and Bill Stewart are nothing but mediocrity and that means that if i wanted to suggest Legends to learn from those 2 would definitely NOT be on the list!
@Scrayfish0 If Feather was really in the know there would have been no interview format it would have stated something like; When we played this gig or that gig in that place i remember Duke saying this to me or Coltrane saying this to me, etc.etc.!
@Scrayfish0 2].............talking about. Who cares whether he was a nice guy. the fact is the Savoy allowed mixed ethnic and racial patronage and the Cotton Club did not. I find it difficult to believe that Duke Ellington's favorite drummer was Gene Krupa because of the dynamics of 'Jim Crow' and 'segregation'! Benny Goodman was not the 'King of Swing' based on the Black experience! The playoff at the Savoy between Goodman and Chick Webb clearly illustrates that!
@Scrayfish0 """"You can look it up yourself in Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz""""".......This is your only source? Geez! Wakeup! I know Joe sample, i bet he'd agree to the contrary. He knew him! Well!
@Scrayfish0 4b] Duke was a Composition and Arranger of pure genius and wrote parts for his players based on their strengths and the ability to give him what he wanted in terms of the sound he wanted to produce. He had now favorites, especially since it might have had a negative effect working in 'all white clubs' and possibly for fear of offending Blacks he work with. Speculation as far as the reason but you clearly no nothing about great composers. The Classically trained also had that.....
@Scrayfish0 ....4c] ...appproach. Look up Evelyn Glennie. People write parts just for her because she is so talented. And by the way she if deaf! I am done educating you here, Scratchfish! Quit dyeing your hair, act like a 60 year old and not a 16 year old, stop taking the viagra so natural serotonin can allow you to produce a little common sense, and try reading for a change! Again, this is not about what people like but simple facts. Too often mediocrity is compared to legend!
I initially brought up Chapin because even though he was a fantastic teacher and technician Chapin had actually wrote 'Advanced Techiniques for the Modern Drummer' and didn't play any of the excercises he wrote until after the book was published and he started getting flack from academia! And what was so amazing about Chapin was, "...some of the drummers in the world can never do this type of thing [as in being technically proficient] but they can play music superbly"!
And by the way even Riley says, "The 4 qaulities necessary to be a great player are technique [DUH/ my initial argument], Groove [Which you stated yourselff is most important and i strongly disagree with], creativity, and musicianship". Hence technique has the greatest priority because it keeps you working. This point you somehow missed. And that was why i stated that Lang and Buddy were way ahead of the crowd. And both were/ and are probably millionaires. I know buddy was for sure!
....Again match grip is easiest to learn and is the common approach for many because it physically requires less discipline to learn and was originally utilized for primarily power. Doesn't work as well for tympany and isn't as effective if you are learning the traditional approach to playing 'jazz' brush strokes and excercises of which there are 12 if you can find Philly Joe Jones's book [Brush Artistry]. But what do i know i am only 50 years old.
Dyintrying- Again you are off 'the point' and the original debate and difference of opinion and again your lack of experience shows. Dawson was truely exceptional and was Tony Williams instructor. What you are talking about concerning Dawson's method was actually the 40 rudiments played continuously in transitions. There's a guy on you tube that has played it and flawlessly i might add. Had you taken this approach initially instead of lobbing insults we'd be having a sybiotic exchange....
for the record. Bill Stewart chopped up Giant steps terribbly. Maybe your Brit-Nutt needs to come to Chicago and learn what real Jazz is all about...LOL! I bet that pissed you off!....Have a nice muslim takeover. By the way ever hear of Garth Crooks? Hint...You'll never get it..LOL!
You had your chance for me to listen but you sent a childish rant so now i refuse to even bother educationg you and making your brain lobes active...and I don't need to watch Bill more closely because i have been playing Jazz for over 30 years! I opened for Sonny Rollins in 1979 in Chicago.
...exceptional example of the idea that there is a proper way to play. And while your at it read about Jim Chaoin and Moeller and educate yourself a little instead of sending these weak-kneed messages clearly indicating your nothing but a child who thinks he's the final word and clearly has no respect for a difference of opinion and limited knowledge and experience on the current subject matter you chose to distort.
In addition to your comments which clearly show you missed the point; i never said anything about whether i liked or disliked. what i stated was that Lang and Buddy were technically prodigies! Even at 60 few could match Buddy's speed of 20 beats per second. Lang has won awards for session work consistently since 1999. He is techinically unmatched in many areas of the percussion world. I am not arguing whther he can swing or groove but without question he is an .....
..the various grips and what the influences were and how each grip evolved. You are incorrect. Match is easiest to learn for many reasons but it's pointless educatiing you because the only part of your brain that seems to work is the stem, certainly none of the lobes. What requires efforts to master are the consistencies of beat to do the number one thing a drummer is supposeto do and that's the keep 'solid time'!
.no nothig about the business of entertainment. And by the way Philly Joe Jones taught me brushes. You have no knowledge of bugle corp drumming or studio work and clearly haven't done any homework on Thomas Lang and probably bought his video because you haven't developed the skills to do anything proficient on your own. Try reading a little instead of sending these emotional outbursts and profane verbal assaults. Read about about the Zildjian family and maybe you'll learn a thing or two about..
Dyintryin Reply to your comment on: frankie dunlop solo3 Respond to this video...
Bullshit.
Hey D,
Don't vent on me because your losing your country to Muslims and because the USA saved your butt and brought you the music you love so much. I grew up around many famous drummers. I use to see Blakey often, started pplaying professionally at 16. You obviously don't know that there are three grips, not 2; no nothing of Jazz history or who imfluenced some of the greats! And you certainly..
@Dyintryin / thomas lang - creative controll 4.mpg
DO a little more research and you'll know why certain grips are used. Also traditional takes a great deal more preactice to become proficient at.........
@Dyintryin - First thing control is better achieved with traditional grip with less effort. Unfortunately the best in this category is either Buddy Rich or Thomas Lang. Dunlop is a good drummer and so is Bill Stewart. But if you watch closely you'll see that neither Stewart or Dunlop can hold a candle from a technical point of view to either of the above just mentioned!
@Dyintryin Any idea how I can get to hear this interview with Mel Lewis? He's my favorite drummer, period.
If you like this solo by Frankie Dunlop, you might want to check out my favorites and look at the videos of Alan Dawson and Tootie Heath. Some superb solos in the same style.
Frankie Dunlop SADLY never became as famous as he should have. Both he and Alan Dawson were Master Jazz Musicians, and should honestly be mentioned right up there with the Greatest Drummers of All Time ~
@Dyintryin : Thank You. ~i'-M Not Aware Of The Shoenberg Radio Broadcast With Mel Lewis. ~i-ll Try To Get A Hearing Of The Interview At A Good Moment. Superb & Thanks. SF.
@Dyintryin ... Bill Stewart is always the cat people mention when they are trying to make your argument , and I agree Bill is a serious jazz drummer who swings his ass off and who happens to play matched grip . But people like him are few and far between .
Damn, just discovered this guy and already I have more inspiration to actually take drum lessons to become more correct and proficient at what I'm already doing, than I've had in a long time! Wow.
it doesn't matter. Its all about comfort. I'm primarily a matched player (when its a a mellow swing, ill usually go to traditional, for the sake of comfort) Personally for swing, i think traditional is comfortable because with matched, your hand is kind of awkwardly sitting on the snare, yknow?
markr1957 and standardfrank you guys sound like the stiffest old losers that couldnt swing if you were hanging by a rope. if you dont like max roach your not even listening.
I actually just came along to watch the video and am not interested in another flamewar.
But from reading your comments, I'd say both of you have quite ridiculous prejudices against anything that has to do with "rock", "modern" or "popular" aswell as against "youngsters".
Might be you're not wrong about EVERYTHING, but I'd suggest to at least consider overthinking your sweeping holier-than-thou generalizations.
Now this is a shame. A great master and no one 'knows' him. It goes to show...talent & business marketing counts a la Buddy Rich, Count Basie! You've got to be the head honcho!
Yeah, FD was a true Master drummer. It's a shame he never got the recognition he deserved. He was right up there with the best of 'em! By the way, it was Krupa who got FD an endorsement deal with Slingerland after hearing him play.
It's a shame that the younger guys don't understand fdrumming like this. It fits the music perfectly. Drumming is NOT all about SPEED, children. It's about MUSIC. THIS is a perfect example of a MASTER drummer. Watch and learn, if you can understand it . . . . .
And, if you younger guys want to see a kick ass solo, check out the FD in Belgium solo here. He was a very musical and sensitive player, but as evidenced here, could kick the ass of any rocker ever born.
PS . . . . . do you rockers even OWN a pair of brushes?
Mark R...Thanks for posting these comments. Wow. Krupa gave FD a warm referral for an endorsement. Goes to show great & honest people appreciate each other no matter what! Mark, on the subject of speed...I've been looking closely at Lionel Hampton. Personally, I had Buddy Rich way ahead of every one else, until I saw Lionel Hampton play. I can't seem to seperate either for their 'speed' craft. Where do you stand with both BR & LH?
LH was SUPER fast, but, certainly not widely know as a drummer. Buddy had the speed AND endurance. More endurance at ALL dynamic levels than I have ever seen. LH was great, but, no one could ever touch Buddy in all around drumming, concept, and execution. I saw him live 30 times. Unbelieveable, every time. Plus, just look at B behing the drums. He even LOOKS like a kick ass monster. He even had the look . . . . .
Also, check out Ben Riley on here with Monk. Small drum set, BIG talent. So many Jazz Masters that these young people have never heard of. Everything with them is rock and metal, speed and volume. Hogwash. Sorry to say the Golden Age of Jazz is gone and all but forgotten, save by a select few who are intelligent enough to know it's importance.
Hi MarkR! Unfortunately, I don't play. I wish I could ..but I was highy discouraged & intimidated not to do so...bad parental advice I'm afraid! Ok, you summed the BR & LH situation well. Yes, Buddy beats every one with speed endurance and he can ramp the accelerator button without tension, like a Carl Lewis would over the 100 m while others tire out unrelaxed wasting power. Perhaps LH can do the same...but there's no footage of it I've seen.
Yes, I've listened to it as you advised...about 20 times already and counting as I'm working on line. The arrangement is superb and the music delightful, especially towards the end. Hahaha...Buddy reminds of that character in the Munsters! lol! Mediocrity reigns unfortunately...may it was the 'Beatles' that started it all with their sad life draining sounds...that for some reason most people like! Shucks!
Yes this is a superb chart, and Buddy's band plays it to perfection. It just goes to show the youngsters, if they are willing to listen, that you need not play fast and loud to make great music.
Wow...Lionel H doesn't make your list. Ok he was a vibes player, not even Gene Krupa. You must be a hard man to please. Ok, thanks for the list. I'll do some research and get back to you. Thanks.
Yeah, it's hard to come up with a top 10 when there were so many great Jazz drummers. No, LH did not make the list. He didn't do that much work as a drummer, and I base my top 10 picks, and all of my favorites, on concept. Shelly Manne and Mel Lewis were not known for speed, but they could SWING and each had a unique concept of playing.
Hi Mark1957 - Long time! I;ve checked out some members of your top 10! I've come back to watch Frankie Dunlop again! He's stock grows with me, he's trully great! Effortless...you know your stuff! Max Roach...I am not that impressed with so far, so I have to ferret out pre 1968 clips of him.
There are some excellent early Max videos here. Check hi out with Art Blakey and Elvin Jones. I'll try and find it for you. Max was HOT, then he forgot about using traditional grip, and became a mere shadow of his former self later in his career.
Ok that would be great Mark. Yes, I will do some checking also. Thanks for your great guidance! I think a huge product launch tribute/ or docu-film-genius should be produced that shows their remarkable skills! There is so much mediocrity today, that even youngsters watching masters at work will be blown away from the conventional rubbish they've been brainwashed with. As some one said...why do drugs when you can listen to great integrating drummers fusing your senses together!
Frank -- also check out Papa Jo Jones. There is a GREAT 1964 solo of him on that drummer world dot com site. The man had a beautiful buzz roll. Check it out and tell me that was not one classy cat!
Punch in "elvin jones max roach art blakey drum battle part 1c" on YT and see some great early Max. Too bad the camera work is so terrible. This is when Max was really a force in Jazz. His later work really went downhill, in my opinion.
longfade - you mean this list... OK, no special order except Buddy being #1. 2. Joe Morello 3. Shelly Manne 4. Frankie Dunlop 5. Ben Riley 6. Mel Lewis 7. Elvin Jones 8. Art Blakey 9. Early - Pre 1968 Max Roach 10 Early - Pre 1966 Tony Williams lol! It's not mine...it's MarkR1957...very good friend of mine...highly knowledgable and accomplished drummer!
There is a new Buddy Rich DVD coming out soon called "Buddy Rich Up Close", and it looks like it's going to be great - I saw a preview of it on The Drum Channel. Just for fun, give it a look.
I got an email from Joe Morello a few weeks ago - he's doing well and still swinging. He is amazing. What a cooool cat, daddy-o.
Hi Mark - Joe Morello, well what a guy. My favourite drummer always has the time with great humility and courtesy of those who engage him. I was thinking...when I look at greats #1 hunchos within any endevour there is always that other great that mirrow- shadows the highly acclaimed...Gottfried Leibniz/Sir Issac Newton, Beethoven/Bach, Plato/Aristotle, John Hanson/George Washington...one is well known or lauded in popular acclaim the other isn't...in drumming, its Papa Joey Jones/Buddy Rich.
Ha! Dont' get me on youngsters on Rock! They're crazy lunatics. In fact, most musicians today are not really mastercraftsmen, sport is the same too. Infact, kids today are just dummied down so badly they have no appreciation for great musicians in any genre as long as its loud without them having to know the historical relevance to what their listening too.
I will continue to listen to the Jazz Masters here..I've learned a lot just from your astute comments alone. Thanks.
Thanks, Frank! Yeah, here in the States people in general seem to celebrate the mediocre and throw money at those who create it. Very sad. They do not seek out a higher standard. They are satisfied with whatever is popular, and whatever is popular is usually pretty lame. Sorry you don't play, but keep listening!
Sad fact -- 2 years ago I read a study of music sales in the States. Jazz and Classical had last place in sales, with a COMBINED total of 4% of all the music sold. That is a sad statement on today's society.
People need to wake up, but I fear they shall not.Come on people, there is more out there than what you see on MTV.
Done here. Not sure who's flagging me for spam but again you bring things into it clearly deviating from the debate. I am finished here!
spider336699 6 days ago
John Lee Hooker (August 22, 1917 – June 21, 2001)
Elmore James (January 27, 1918 – May 24, 1963)= Way more impact.
spider336699 6 days ago
And Scrayfish, when you brought up John Lee Hooker that was another sign you had no clue because Elmore James was far more influential than Hooker. Hooker's main influence was primarily Blues. Elmore 'King of the slide guitar" influenced Brian Stone [Rolling Stones], Stevie Ray Vaughan, Fleetwood Mac's guitarist, Jimi Hendricks, Frank Zappa, Lennon, Elvis, Harrison,; hence Elmore's techique carried over into almost all Genres unlike Hookers! Now tear this one up! There isn't enough room here!
spider336699 6 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
1] Marvin "Smitty" Smith - Greensleeves (w/ Drum Solo) (HQ); 2]Duke Ellington Masters - drum solo; 3] Stan Levey "The Original Original"
spider336699 1 week ago
Hi Guys!
I'm looking for a better sound quality of this solo?
Does anyone know the title of this tune or where i can get it?
May be someone has the track at home...on CD or anything...
Thx so far!
alberisch89 1 month ago
swingin solo!! woooooooo
jungmans90 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
And Dyintryin, i never questioned your knowledge just your ability to communicate which was initially quite juvinile.....And learn to focus debates and arguments. And so you have been playing professionally for 18 years. Nice! I've got 34 years and still know when to shut my mouth or tread carefully. Even with Buddy Guy who i can't stand! Many Black musicians think whites stole from them. DThat's another debate for sure and certainly not true!
spider336699 9 months ago
Comment removed
spider336699 9 months ago
Now you mentioned 2 drummers early in our verbal battle and what i can unequivocally state is that Bill Stewart can't hold a candle to John Riley. And the best source of critique is the listener and that is why Dunlop and Steward didn't get the level of recognition. They were not amazing enough to make that mark! Plain and simple. You can disagree all you want but it's the patron that an artist that has to convince because that is how the business works and that's how to make a living!
spider336699 9 months ago
@spider336699 What "listener" gets to decide? All the listeners in the world? I guess that would make Keith Moon the greatest drummer who ever lived. And does the fact that Eddie Blackwell never got the recognition he deserved mean he wasn't one of the best? In any event, give Bill Stewart time. He is one of the most original and gifted players of all time and beats the heck out of me why that burns you up.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Your entitled to your opinion and i respect it, but no one you've mentioned is in a class with Art Blakey [who's technique is poor but sounds legendary], Max Roach, Buddy Rich, Philly Jo, Philly Joe Jones, just to name a few. A legend and 'Master' makes what their doing look easy.And don't forget Rufus Jones. Most of you weren't even born. And last to date we have Clayton Cameron and Marvin Smitty Smith! No one you have mentioned can hold a candle to any i just mentioned.
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 The other thing you fail to realize is that the ones i have mentioned not only played well, but made it look easy and took the listener beyond what they could imagined. I am 50 years old and back in my day the listener new when you blew trading 4's 8's, etc. They also knew when musicians played standards incorrectly and they knew what 'swinging' truly was unlike many of you youngsters today!
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 Guess what? I'm 60 years old and I have an international reputation and what you say makes no sense whatsoever. I love the fact the fact you love Art Blakely-and guess what? I love Art Blakely too! But anyone who doesn't recognize that Eddie Blackwell-and guess who?-Gene Krupa-were geniuses simply doesn't "get it"!! These cats had personality & could move people to tears.And before your start dissing Krupa, just remember he was one of Duke's most favorite drummers!
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Marvin "Smitty" Smith - Greensleeves (w/ Drum Solo) (HQ) Duke Ellington Masters - drum solo Stan Levey "The Original Original"
Now get a clue because you clearly know not enough to debate with a drummer with 34 years experience on a ticket with Sonny Rollins at 18 years old who started playing professionally at age 15 who's 3rd teacher was a buddy rich protege'!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Ps. Keith Moon was a mediocre player with a cult band. Nothing more. Ginger Baker sewed the seeds and Bonham. Not Moon!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Blackwell and Stewart didn't get it because they don't deserve it! Period!
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 This is the most moronic comment I've ever read on YouTube besides the jerking off about Travis Barker.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1] Since i used to trade for George Soros, and my cousin is a famous footballer [a leading scorer for Stoke City and Tottenham and who now broadcasts for the BBC, and since i have another family member that is one of the most successful investment advisors throughout portugal and spain, and being of aristocracy i highly doubt your international rep is even close to my Family's or me. Now focus like a 'laser beam' because i am now going to waste time providing you with an education!
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 Well that's all very interesting; some of it I knew and some I didn't. But your family history has nothing to do with my reputation as a musician, nor yours to b honest.I would think someone as grand as yourself would have better things to do than tear down Bill Stewart. You just sound angry and bitter and your posts to the other readers are pompous and rude. Get a grip. And b.t.w., check out Eddie Blackwell's solo on Eric Dolphy Live at the Five Spot volume 2.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 You brought up the 'internation reputation crap. You are the one that strays from the debate, not me! Take you licking or don't go there. FOCUS LIKE A LASER BEAM! Can you do that?
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 2] Blakey was a piano player [a percussion instrument] and band leader by the time he was i think 13 or 14 which started in the church and taught himself to play drums which is why his grip and technique was so awkward technically. Most trained percussionist learn a similar pattern in treble and bass clef [there are others] for training their hearing. Significant if you want to learn to play Jazz, Be-Bop, and Big Band! And he was a damn excellent piano player and that was a huge....
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 2a]...factor in his ability to swing like no other. No time here to tell you why i had issues with him personally but i did meet him and frequented the Jazz Showcase in Chicago every time he was there a along with Bill Cosby and a host of other famous people. I was about19 years old. Much of what he knows he got from Chick Webb! The polyrhythmic style was developed when he visited Africa. In addition was his contribution featuring new talent. Not enough space for the names.
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 3] I have responded to your 'Blackwell' so now Krupa! He became famous playing with Benny Goodman and one of his most incredible contributions was being the first to record with a full set of drums; working with Armand Zildjian he perfected the names and playing techniques for the various cymbals;i.e. hi-hat, ride, splash, pang, crash. Although he was formally trained by Sandford A. Moeller it was Baby Dodds who had the greatest influence. Why is this significant?
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 Well you know your history, I will give you that! You used Blackwell's limited celebrity as proof somehow that he is not such a great drummer, so by implication Krupa, arguably the most popular of all drummers, is the best. On the other hand, it became very fashionable to diss Krupa and the animus behind dissing him was that he was so successful. The fact is these are all greaqt drummers who had real musical personalites and there's no point picking them apart.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 No they are not all great drummers and the listener is the final word, musician or not for the most part. Blackwell isn't and it's that simple. I said i respected your opinion, what more do you want. I don't agree with you, period and i am explaining why. Focus!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 .3a] It is key because when Big Bands started dying and BeBop came into fruition and Dodd who was credited with 'inventing the modern ride cymbal pattern' and absolute perfection playing press rolls [which is frowned upon in military bugle corp drumming] limited Krupa's ability to adapt to the high rate of speed that Buddy Rich and Papa Jo Jones were virtually unmatched at until later years. Papa Jo was also the first to promote the use of Brushes. Philly Jo produced a book called..
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 Papa Jo was indeed a giant and ...I saw him sobbing uncontrollably at Krupa's funeral, by the way. So we are on the same page here. We all know that Buddy was a freak and in a class by himself technically, but to me he was a very cold musician and ultimately very uninteresting as a musical personality. Of course Krupa was no match for Buddy (no one was except maybe Morello who was more musical) but Krupa out-grooved Rich by a country mile in my humble opinion.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Buddy was a perfectionist and and a prodigy, like Tesla, and Einstein and many others. That's par for the personality! Even Papa Jo was easliy irritated, irascible, and had a combative temprament. It's documented in many places!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 ..3b]..."Brush Artistry". Out of print today but i still have the book and i practice the 12 basic brush rudiments daily still today; [Conventional Stroke/ SmoothOne/ Palm Up/ Trill/ Tense/ Tippin'/ The Cup/ Half and Half/ Eyes/ Shufflingit/ Sweepingit/ and FancyFancy]! And i have the Preimier 555 Brushes he used and they are at least 33 years old! Copyright 1968! Dodds was also kept the beat with the bass drum also prevalent in Krupa's playing! Krupa was virtually...
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 ..3c] ..unmatched as a showman during his time. All you can say was that he was a genius and you don't even know why! Even Buddy Rich was quoted saying similar. "Flamboyant and highly energetic"! People love it! Done here cause i am running out of time. Now for Duke Ellington!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 ..4] What is clearly evident is that you are not trained in music and if you are you didn't study it's history or theory and are clearly not the remnant of the listener i describe who had no experience at all but knew when the standards were played incorrectly and another key person that was instrumental in creating standardized arrangements was Jelly Roll Morton who laid much of the foundation for a lot of it for Duke and many others. It was Chick Webb......
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 ..4a] ..in my opinion that was the real 'King of Swing' and if you read the accounts of the professional 'Lindy Hoppers' and the playoffs between Goodman and Webb you'd not have stated my comments were moronic! Chick and Benny played the exact same arrangements! And as far as Duke saying that Krupa was his favorite drummer? Ludicrous! Krupa even admits during the first playoff Webb outdid him!
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 You can look it up yourself in Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz: Duke clearly indicated Krupa among his favorites. Krupa was a modest guy and by all accounts Chick was a demon who could burn anybody-but that doesn't detract from Krupa. All you seem to understand about music is technique, history and cliches, but that does not show musical knowledge.Why don't you post the your life story so we can understand why you are so angry and easily threatened? I'm done.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 ..Ok if i am wrong but i do not believe he said it and believed it. Let's just say it was political at best!
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 See, even if you are presented with a pure, simple, fact, you wiggle out of it with a ludicrous explanation. I could give you my professional bio, any one of 15-20 CD recordings, dozens and dozens of reviews in The NY Times & elsewhere, articles I've written, awards I've won, and you would deny that too. As for your other rantings, you've proven nothing but that you must be an extremely difficult person to live with. I'm sorry for you & done writing for good.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 lolol
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Send me your stuff to my in box. I am open! You started with the 'moronic' comment. You drew 'first blood'! Not me!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Pot calling the kettle 'black' is how i see it! You started it period. I refuse to take it. I took the time to explain my case and i started saying i 'respected you opinion. Re- read it again!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 -And by the way even Riley says, "The 4 qaulities necessary to be a great player are ""technique"" [DUH/ my initial argument], groove, creativity, and musicianship". Hence technique has the greatest priority because it keeps you working. This point you somehow missed. Technique is the reason we have standards & jingles. You could give me your professional bio? Still waiting. Don't write checks with your mouth your body can't cash!
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 I know who I am and you don't know who I am and I'd rather keep it that way if you don't mind. If you want to think I'm an idiot in need of your wisdom I don't want to spoil your fun, but your "insights" strike me as pretty superficial though I did learn a few historical facts from you (thanks). As for technique, Monk and John Lee Hooker didn't have a lot of it, yet they are giants, so the truth is: you only need enough technique to "play your shit."
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@spider336699 p.s. God bless!
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1] Look man, you are like the jigsaw puzzle sitting on a table that has never been finished because you continually fail to complete putting all the pieces together. There was a racial element called 'Jim Crow' and 'segregation' and that is why i do not believe that Duke truely believed that Krupa was his favorite drummer. Most of the cats that played with Duke made Krupa's playing look elementary. It would have served Duke no advantage saying anything negative.....
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1a].....Nor would it have worked in Duke's favor to not recognize Krupa's contribution utilizing all of the aspects of a 'full drum set'. when Sachmo died they found tapes of his frustration with Whites. When Miles asked his Father for permission to leave Julliard it was because he thought his formal training was too eurcentric. Miles was a second generation musician and it was his parents, more the Mother than Father that insistent he get a formal education only to admit later..
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1b] ...that he never would have gotten as far in Music as he did without that training. Again supporting my argument of how important the technical and academic aspect of music was and still is today. Also there was a 'code of honor' that existed amongst all musicians in the early part of the 20th century that clearly doesn't exist today and you are a clear example of that lost 'code of honor'.
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1c] Cliche means, "something that has become overly familiar or commonplace", i.e "standards"! so i stand guilty i guess, along with hundreds of others that are Masters in their fields! And i am not angry or easily threatened, but for some reason i guess i am suppose to be happy because my rhetoric is moronic? I have no doubt i could beat the hell out of you and then maybe a good beating long- deserved would stop you short of insulting people because they can formulate ideas....
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1d]......beyond your comprehension which is why you keep adding rhetoric steering away from the basic debate we are having. And Scray, like i said Riley is no Master. He doesn't make it look easy and works to hard. and i don't even know what instrument you play and you are clearly the one afraid of being criticized! You have done this and that but refuse to show me because you have already anticipated that i would 'deny that to'. Your words not mind. Guess you still....
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1e].....have stage fright and desperately need a fan club because the fright is of 'criticism' because you think you have it all figured out. I personally don't need others accolades and praise to be confident in my abilities. And at this stage i am guessing your white as well because most blacks, like Satchmo, pretty much kept what they really thought to themselvesor recorded it and just tucked it away. Read Miles Davis' autobiograhy....
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1f].... and he clearly spells out the 'sellouts'! And not just musicians!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Now Thelonius. He and Miles got into it and like me supposedly being angry Miles was very much like Papa Jo and Buddy Rich! Him and Monk almost got into a fight and it was well documented during the times! Monk was the most recorded composer after Ellington. Monk also had formal training in addition to being self- taught and often was around listening to his sister's lessons and like many he started actively in the church! So again you are incorrect about Monk.
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 Wait! I never said Monk wasn't trained, I said he didn't have a lot of technique, but he didn't need a lot of technique to be a giant. Also, I never said Krupa was Duke's favorite drummer, he was listed among them. Also, Duke was a very powerful musician and had a lot of gigs, so he didn't have to suck up to Krupa. Basie didn't list Krupa, and he didn't get hurt. Finally, I never called you a moron, I said one of your comments about Bill Stewart was moronic.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 I assume you know who John Scofield is? Well Miles thought pretty highly of Sco, right? So who is Sco's first call drummer? Well if it isn't Bill Stewart himself! Ditto Pat Metheny. So who do you think people are going to believe, Spiderman or Sco? I'm not saying you gotta like Bill Stewart, but to brag on YouTube that nobody knows more than you because you opened for Sonny Rollins 25 years ago is really struttin' some. You may be a great drummer, that's not the point.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 And do you know the record Eric Dolphy at the Five Spot volume 2? Judge Eddie Blackwell from that disc, not that terrible YouTube video.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Heard it and again not impressed! Sorry! And never said he couldn't swing.
spider336699 6 days ago
@spider336699 Why thank you for listening! If you can conduct a truly respectful dialogue a keep focus (I know you think I am focused, but I can never follow you either), then I will glad to answer you. Now I will tell you why I like Krupa, and you are free to disagree. It is true he was influenced by Baby Dodds and Chick Webb, he was the first person to admit that. And yes, he was never the technician that many of the drummers you cite. But the man could groove, not like Sid...
Scrayfish0 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 Catlett (different feel), or Davey Tough or those guys, but in his own way. In addition, the man had style (in spite of influences). I can tell it's Krupa within two seconds, and I'm not talking about records I've heard. Next, he phrased his ass off, there is humor, wit and soul in his playing and people get. The showmanship is in the playing. You can dance to any of his solos and you hear joy. Now, you accused me of repeating what other people say, but this is how I feel
Scrayfish0 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 ...and a lot of other musicians too. Roy Haynes thought he was a gas and so did Jo Jones and lots more. Now, if I must acknowledge what is so important to you, OF COURSE I'VE HEARD OF JIM CROW. Now don't go crazy on me Mr. Spiderman or I won't answer you again.
Scrayfish0 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 Oh...I forgot, it's try Rufus "Speedy" Jones could do blindingly fast double strokes, raising his arms above his head, but to my ears, which you may think are lame, he was just a machine with very little personality but lots of drive. Sam Woodyard, on the other hand was a groove-master; that's my kind of playing.
Scrayfish0 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 My goodness you are clearly not a drummer or a percussionist.
spider336699 5 days ago
@Scrayfish0 No your not focused and i can follow you just fine! No he couldn't groove like the others, that was the argument and difference of opinions!. Krupa is in no class with Blakey or Bellson. He was a great showman and utilized terms and traps equipment better than anyone. I am sure this will get spammed as well so hopefully you'll see my responses before some liberal jerk spams me again!
spider336699 5 days ago
@Scrayfish0 Again you deviate from the original debate. I have explained and articulated things well above! Scofield has proven himself and if Bill stewart did play guitar he'd not have made the mark! And i know Pat Matheny and Paul Wertico! What else can you throw this way.Pathetic, dude! And i never said i knew more than anyone. I just question things that clearly do not fit!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 Remember that jigsaw puzzle analogy? You'll never finish it! You haven't a clue, again. Adding things that deviate from the original debate. My debate is not with people but with you. Unlike you i don't care what people think because i grew up with and around many of the names you have mentioned or knew people that knew many of the names you mentioned personally. So much so many got on me for my hiatus from music!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 I am top tier period, socially, intellectually. If i were asked to do clinics or reviews, critiques, or anything that allowed the public eyes to focus. I'd say 'NO!". What people thin is that unimportant to me. there's no fulfillment whatsoever! I wouldn't even do drum clinics. My second teacher was just under Chapin for producing legendary percussionists. But he couldn't swing worth shit and was clearly no match for Chapin and a player of influence, but he taught old school!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 And my second teacher was an exceptional teacher. He made you work and a certain way for many good reasons you could never fathom. Sad to me how so many drummers have no foundation. Most know tricks and possess no versatility whatsoever! Your boy Stewart works a set of drums like a jet flying in wind shear! And so we are clear i am speaking from a technical point of view. His sounds are superb! He just looks like a dork doing it! That's my issue! Hence he doesn't make it look easy!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 In layman's terms, he works harder than he needs to! It's that simple. Art Blakey plays like that to but Steward can't even hold a candle to that level of groove!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 If Stewart could groove that well we'd not even be having the conversation. My issues with Blakey is that he adopted a system of belief of Africa's first slave masters. Europeans were not the 1st to industrialize slavery of Blacks. Art also liked the young 'white girls'! Hypocracy! Loved him as a player because he was a legend most of his life. didn't agree with his political views at all and that matters to me unlike many!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 The listeners today care nothing about what's correct and fail to even understand why things are done a certain way, be in playing an instrument, or being a surgeon! There's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Like the term 'kick drum'. It's called a bass drum for a reason and much of it has to do with it's origins and it's sound on the staff and sound register!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 I opened for Sonny 32 years ago and this is exactly my problem with you. You only see what you want and again are so myopic in your thought process you will never be able to 'connect the dots', ever!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 The moral or the story is simply this, too many have made mistakes to get it right; hence there is no reason the 'reinvent the wheel'! Many have forgotten how we got here as a civilization with all of the advancements! It's about perfecting your art then advancing from where the greats left off without forgetting the foundations that allowed us to enjoy what we do today!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 Monk 1] Monk was also not a 1st generation musician which explains much of his natural ability. I am a 4th generation and i have cousins in New York and Jamaica that have a huge follwing [underground out East] and huge in Jamaica!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Now John Lee Hooker! All the Blues and folk guitarist i know are constantly mesmerized by his technique. I don't play guitar but what i do understand is that he did incredible things with his fingers. Hi stepfather was a major influence and so was the 'boogie woogie' piano style. This is your cliche and it is technical in nature. Called commonly the A_B_A format and he was home school. Now the was no 'formal trainging' in the sense of academic..............
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Hooker 1] ... schooling but there was 'in the school of hard knox'. It's just as relavent and again he set standards and that's the part you keep missing. And the simple fact is that the 'John Hookers' are rare and that is why schooling is so important. Just like a Doctor or a Lawyer there have been precedents set for others to follow and the fact is most musicians are not born with gifts so prevalent and that is the reason for technique. Hence, there is a never a reason........
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 2] ...to reinvent 'the wheel'. By now your brain looks like testicles turn right side up with a scrotum of clear membrane. I am sure after this you with bring up something else that deviates from the debate because you are obsessed with proving something which you clearly have from your response. Learning something you didn't know and disareeing for the sake of being disagreeable!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Send me your stuff dude. I have a feeling you are passionate about what you do and that alone means your probably incredible at what you do. Surprised? You have misread me huge! And sorry but feather although a Jew is still white. Even today many Black musicians in private feel the way saatchmo does in will never admit it to anyone white unless they have proven themselves to be trustworthy enough. I know that for sure!
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 About Feather: that book is just a compilation of historical facts about jazz musicians. I have no regard for his critical opinion, nor for Nat Hentoff or any other dumb-ass music critic. Hentoff was the biggest suck-up trying to be cool there ever was. But Feather was supposed to be a truly nice guy and he loved jazz so you can't hold that against him.
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 1] 'Jim Crow' and 'segregation' cannot be ignored and cannot be left out when talking about the history of any genre of music in America! I said nothing about whether i liked or disliked Feather; but as a Jew, since they were the ones that started the civil rights movement and the NAACP, i find it disturbing that you make no mention. I have not read Feather's book and do not need to and again you bring in subject matter into our debate that has nothing to do with what we are....
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 ............talking about. Who cares whether he was a nice guy. the fact is the Savoy allowed mixed ethnic and racial patronage and the Cotton Club did not. I find it difficult to believe that Duke Ellington's favorite drummer was Gene Krupa because of the dynamics of 'Jim Crow' and 'segregation'! Benny Goodman was not the 'King of Swing' based on the Black experience! The playoff at the Savoy between Goodman and Chick Webb clearly illustrates that!
spider336699 1 week ago
@spider336699 Spiderman, my friend, you have lost me entirely (again). You were the one to bring up Leonard Feather in the first place, which I assumed you did to invalidate what I said about Duke liking Krupa. Inotherwords, because Feather was white, even though he was a Jew, whatever he said could not be true. Is that what you meant to say? My point was that Feather was simply recording what all those cats he interviewed told him. The book was a bunch of little bios with pix
Scrayfish0 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 I didn't bring up Feather. I didn't even know who the fuck he was until you brought him up. And this is the primary issue with your myopic and narrowed thinking. No doubt in my mind you are liberal of some sorts. Like the moronic comment. I knew you said 'my comment was moronic'. But as usual you try to turn it around as if i said you called me a moron directly.the word implies 'stupidity'. Might as well call me stupid!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 2] You have no concept of diplomacy or respectful dialogue. JUST LIKE the Monk part of the debate. And the fact that he was not a first generation musician and the fact he was surrounded by things that nurtured his innate talent directly. And while you are disagreeing with me you make no reference to what i added and freely add new things to the debate and i reference it and you add something else.
spider336699 6 days ago
Scray, you fail to see that Monk was surrounded by technique.
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 And by the way my real name is, Beethoven; Not Spiderman! Scrayfish Quotes,//// "As for technique, Monk and John Lee Hooker didn't have a lot of it, yet they are giants, so the truth is: you only need enough technique to "play your shit.""
"@spider336699 You can look it up yourself in Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz: Duke clearly indicated Krupa among his favorites."
See, even if you are presented with a pure, simple, fact, you wiggle out of it with a ludicrous explanation
spider336699 6 days ago
The above is all you Scrayfish!
spider336699 6 days ago
Scary you love to wiggle!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 I could have run with the idiot comment but i have already eloquently explained what your problem is. Like i said you cannot talk about the history of any genre of music and not talk about Jim Crow or segregation. When Blacks traveled they didn't even have access to the entrances that whites did. Many time Black musicians slept in their vehicles, had to be careful where they traveled. That experience and many was a factor in how they approached things. Since you don't....
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 ...have the ability to see things beyond your myopic scope of the world or visualize things peripherally I thought i'd help you out. Hence why i made the comment that you are like the perpetual jigsaw puzzler that sees things only in parts instead of mentally and intellectually trying to complete the entire puzzle. You repeatedly fail to connect the dots. The Rolling Stones, Beatles, many whites have used Black talent for their source and many times not paying proper tributes!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 1] And i never stated that what Feather said wasn't true. Again i will repeat it, of course not verbatim. Feather was a Jew and they started the civil rights movement and the NAACP. It bothers me that he made no reference to Jim Crow and segregation. As a general rule Blacks are still to some extent angry about segregation and the Louis Armstrong tapes found after his death clearly illustrate this! And i also grew up with many famous Blacks in entertainment and....
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 2] And there are things today that they will not talk about with whites, period! And the few whites that do make it into that fraternity of secret dialogue about their struggles are few and in person they can confirm what i have just stated. Duke and all musicians before 1960 had a code of honor. It would have served no purpose to badmouth/ and or not recognize Krupa's accomplishments on any scale since he played white clubs. If Krupa was one of Duke's favorites.....
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 3] ...it was political. Everyone of Ellington's drummers blew Krupa out of the water! Even Bellson was a better drummer! Krupa's greatest contribution was defining to use of all the components of the drum set. Krupa even had Slingerland build a tunable floor tom. Pure genius! Now go ahead and say something i didn't say. Some advice for you, 'is to think just a little before you reply!
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 And you are aware that Louis Bellson was married to a Black woman, right? If he were alive he'd confirm what i just stated about Black musicians basically not trusting whites. Some years ago i was with a famous Black musician who was in Chicago playing with David Sanborn. He had nothing but complaints about Sanborn and Sanborn's biggest influence was a black man Bennie Ross "Hank" Crawford, Jr [Ray Charles]. You getting the picture here, Scrayfish? Sanborn has never given dues....
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 2] Sanborn continued..............or given the respect for his greatest influence which happens to be racial and cultural and this is the general standard of thought towards many white musicians since so many were influenced significanly by Black players; hence the reason for continued animosity. Again Dunlop and Bill Stewart are nothing but mediocrity and that means that if i wanted to suggest Legends to learn from those 2 would definitely NOT be on the list!
spider336699 6 days ago
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@Scrayfish0 Hence my point via your quote, " My point was that Feather was simply recording what all those cats he interviewed told him."
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 If Feather was really in the know there would have been no interview format it would have stated something like; When we played this gig or that gig in that place i remember Duke saying this to me or Coltrane saying this to me, etc.etc.!
spider336699 6 days ago
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@Scrayfish0 2].............talking about. Who cares whether he was a nice guy. the fact is the Savoy allowed mixed ethnic and racial patronage and the Cotton Club did not. I find it difficult to believe that Duke Ellington's favorite drummer was Gene Krupa because of the dynamics of 'Jim Crow' and 'segregation'! Benny Goodman was not the 'King of Swing' based on the Black experience! The playoff at the Savoy between Goodman and Chick Webb clearly illustrates that!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 I have regard for all opinions mainly so i can understand what people thiink from a different perspective.
spider336699 6 days ago
@Scrayfish0 """"You can look it up yourself in Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz""""".......This is your only source? Geez! Wakeup! I know Joe sample, i bet he'd agree to the contrary. He knew him! Well!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 4b] Duke was a Composition and Arranger of pure genius and wrote parts for his players based on their strengths and the ability to give him what he wanted in terms of the sound he wanted to produce. He had now favorites, especially since it might have had a negative effect working in 'all white clubs' and possibly for fear of offending Blacks he work with. Speculation as far as the reason but you clearly no nothing about great composers. The Classically trained also had that.....
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 ....4c] ...appproach. Look up Evelyn Glennie. People write parts just for her because she is so talented. And by the way she if deaf! I am done educating you here, Scratchfish! Quit dyeing your hair, act like a 60 year old and not a 16 year old, stop taking the viagra so natural serotonin can allow you to produce a little common sense, and try reading for a change! Again, this is not about what people like but simple facts. Too often mediocrity is compared to legend!
spider336699 1 week ago
@Scrayfish0 Most people are correct about Barker! But i am not going to drill them because i disagree!
spider336699 1 week ago
Why? Becuase Riley plays traditionally proper. He transitions well, grooves, and most importantly he plays relaxed and has clearly mastered grip!
spider336699 9 months ago
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spider336699 9 months ago
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spider336699 9 months ago
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spider336699 9 months ago
I initially brought up Chapin because even though he was a fantastic teacher and technician Chapin had actually wrote 'Advanced Techiniques for the Modern Drummer' and didn't play any of the excercises he wrote until after the book was published and he started getting flack from academia! And what was so amazing about Chapin was, "...some of the drummers in the world can never do this type of thing [as in being technically proficient] but they can play music superbly"!
spider336699 9 months ago
And by the way even Riley says, "The 4 qaulities necessary to be a great player are technique [DUH/ my initial argument], Groove [Which you stated yourselff is most important and i strongly disagree with], creativity, and musicianship". Hence technique has the greatest priority because it keeps you working. This point you somehow missed. And that was why i stated that Lang and Buddy were way ahead of the crowd. And both were/ and are probably millionaires. I know buddy was for sure!
spider336699 9 months ago
....Again match grip is easiest to learn and is the common approach for many because it physically requires less discipline to learn and was originally utilized for primarily power. Doesn't work as well for tympany and isn't as effective if you are learning the traditional approach to playing 'jazz' brush strokes and excercises of which there are 12 if you can find Philly Joe Jones's book [Brush Artistry]. But what do i know i am only 50 years old.
spider336699 9 months ago
Dyintrying- Again you are off 'the point' and the original debate and difference of opinion and again your lack of experience shows. Dawson was truely exceptional and was Tony Williams instructor. What you are talking about concerning Dawson's method was actually the 40 rudiments played continuously in transitions. There's a guy on you tube that has played it and flawlessly i might add. Had you taken this approach initially instead of lobbing insults we'd be having a sybiotic exchange....
spider336699 9 months ago
And D,
for the record. Bill Stewart chopped up Giant steps terribbly. Maybe your Brit-Nutt needs to come to Chicago and learn what real Jazz is all about...LOL! I bet that pissed you off!....Have a nice muslim takeover. By the way ever hear of Garth Crooks? Hint...You'll never get it..LOL!
spider336699 10 months ago
And D,
You had your chance for me to listen but you sent a childish rant so now i refuse to even bother educationg you and making your brain lobes active...and I don't need to watch Bill more closely because i have been playing Jazz for over 30 years! I opened for Sonny Rollins in 1979 in Chicago.
spider336699 10 months ago
...exceptional example of the idea that there is a proper way to play. And while your at it read about Jim Chaoin and Moeller and educate yourself a little instead of sending these weak-kneed messages clearly indicating your nothing but a child who thinks he's the final word and clearly has no respect for a difference of opinion and limited knowledge and experience on the current subject matter you chose to distort.
spider336699 10 months ago
In addition to your comments which clearly show you missed the point; i never said anything about whether i liked or disliked. what i stated was that Lang and Buddy were technically prodigies! Even at 60 few could match Buddy's speed of 20 beats per second. Lang has won awards for session work consistently since 1999. He is techinically unmatched in many areas of the percussion world. I am not arguing whther he can swing or groove but without question he is an .....
spider336699 10 months ago
..the various grips and what the influences were and how each grip evolved. You are incorrect. Match is easiest to learn for many reasons but it's pointless educatiing you because the only part of your brain that seems to work is the stem, certainly none of the lobes. What requires efforts to master are the consistencies of beat to do the number one thing a drummer is supposeto do and that's the keep 'solid time'!
spider336699 10 months ago
.no nothig about the business of entertainment. And by the way Philly Joe Jones taught me brushes. You have no knowledge of bugle corp drumming or studio work and clearly haven't done any homework on Thomas Lang and probably bought his video because you haven't developed the skills to do anything proficient on your own. Try reading a little instead of sending these emotional outbursts and profane verbal assaults. Read about about the Zildjian family and maybe you'll learn a thing or two about..
spider336699 10 months ago
Dyintryin Reply to your comment on: frankie dunlop solo3 Respond to this video...
Bullshit.
Hey D,
Don't vent on me because your losing your country to Muslims and because the USA saved your butt and brought you the music you love so much. I grew up around many famous drummers. I use to see Blakey often, started pplaying professionally at 16. You obviously don't know that there are three grips, not 2; no nothing of Jazz history or who imfluenced some of the greats! And you certainly..
spider336699 10 months ago
@Dyintryin- Thomas Lang stick tricks
spider336699 10 months ago
@Dyintryin / thomas lang - creative controll 4.mpg
DO a little more research and you'll know why certain grips are used. Also traditional takes a great deal more preactice to become proficient at.........
spider336699 10 months ago
@Dyintryin / thomas lang - creative controll 4.mpg
spider336699 10 months ago
@Dyintryin - First thing control is better achieved with traditional grip with less effort. Unfortunately the best in this category is either Buddy Rich or Thomas Lang. Dunlop is a good drummer and so is Bill Stewart. But if you watch closely you'll see that neither Stewart or Dunlop can hold a candle from a technical point of view to either of the above just mentioned!
spider336699 10 months ago
@Dyintryin Any idea how I can get to hear this interview with Mel Lewis? He's my favorite drummer, period.
If you like this solo by Frankie Dunlop, you might want to check out my favorites and look at the videos of Alan Dawson and Tootie Heath. Some superb solos in the same style.
Frankie Dunlop SADLY never became as famous as he should have. Both he and Alan Dawson were Master Jazz Musicians, and should honestly be mentioned right up there with the Greatest Drummers of All Time ~
MarkR1957 10 months ago
@Dyintryin : Thank You. ~i'-M Not Aware Of The Shoenberg Radio Broadcast With Mel Lewis. ~i-ll Try To Get A Hearing Of The Interview At A Good Moment. Superb & Thanks. SF.
Standardfrank 10 months ago
@Dyintryin ... Bill Stewart is always the cat people mention when they are trying to make your argument , and I agree Bill is a serious jazz drummer who swings his ass off and who happens to play matched grip . But people like him are few and far between .
sweetfly66 10 months ago
go on the frankie
mosilflutil10 1 year ago
Damn, just discovered this guy and already I have more inspiration to actually take drum lessons to become more correct and proficient at what I'm already doing, than I've had in a long time! Wow.
Slammintone 1 year ago
it doesn't matter. Its all about comfort. I'm primarily a matched player (when its a a mellow swing, ill usually go to traditional, for the sake of comfort) Personally for swing, i think traditional is comfortable because with matched, your hand is kind of awkwardly sitting on the snare, yknow?
dontdodat00O 2 years ago
Everytime I see this I say cool.
joshuacreamer 3 years ago
'Love that roll from cymbal to snare!..Should've nick-named him Frankie 'rim-shot' Dunlop!---One of the very greats!'
oldedrum 3 years ago
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Yeah man, he was real smooth with that
childofprosperity 2 years ago
markr1957 and standardfrank you guys sound like the stiffest old losers that couldnt swing if you were hanging by a rope. if you dont like max roach your not even listening.
finch866 3 years ago
I actually just came along to watch the video and am not interested in another flamewar.
But from reading your comments, I'd say both of you have quite ridiculous prejudices against anything that has to do with "rock", "modern" or "popular" aswell as against "youngsters".
Might be you're not wrong about EVERYTHING, but I'd suggest to at least consider overthinking your sweeping holier-than-thou generalizations.
Bye, I'm off.
twooffour 4 years ago
"Might be you're not wrong about EVERYTHING"
Rather, "there is some partial truth in your statements".
twooffour 4 years ago
Now this is a shame. A great master and no one 'knows' him. It goes to show...talent & business marketing counts a la Buddy Rich, Count Basie! You've got to be the head honcho!
Standardfrank 4 years ago
Yeah, FD was a true Master drummer. It's a shame he never got the recognition he deserved. He was right up there with the best of 'em! By the way, it was Krupa who got FD an endorsement deal with Slingerland after hearing him play.
MarkR1957 4 years ago
It's a shame that the younger guys don't understand fdrumming like this. It fits the music perfectly. Drumming is NOT all about SPEED, children. It's about MUSIC. THIS is a perfect example of a MASTER drummer. Watch and learn, if you can understand it . . . . .
MarkR1957 4 years ago
And, if you younger guys want to see a kick ass solo, check out the FD in Belgium solo here. He was a very musical and sensitive player, but as evidenced here, could kick the ass of any rocker ever born.
PS . . . . . do you rockers even OWN a pair of brushes?
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Mark R...Thanks for posting these comments. Wow. Krupa gave FD a warm referral for an endorsement. Goes to show great & honest people appreciate each other no matter what! Mark, on the subject of speed...I've been looking closely at Lionel Hampton. Personally, I had Buddy Rich way ahead of every one else, until I saw Lionel Hampton play. I can't seem to seperate either for their 'speed' craft. Where do you stand with both BR & LH?
Standardfrank 4 years ago
LH was SUPER fast, but, certainly not widely know as a drummer. Buddy had the speed AND endurance. More endurance at ALL dynamic levels than I have ever seen. LH was great, but, no one could ever touch Buddy in all around drumming, concept, and execution. I saw him live 30 times. Unbelieveable, every time. Plus, just look at B behing the drums. He even LOOKS like a kick ass monster. He even had the look . . . . .
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Also, check out Ben Riley on here with Monk. Small drum set, BIG talent. So many Jazz Masters that these young people have never heard of. Everything with them is rock and metal, speed and volume. Hogwash. Sorry to say the Golden Age of Jazz is gone and all but forgotten, save by a select few who are intelligent enough to know it's importance.
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Good to hear from you, Frank. Do you play?
Keep checking out the Jazz Masters on here and maybe we can get some of these children to understand . . . . .
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Hi MarkR! Unfortunately, I don't play. I wish I could ..but I was highy discouraged & intimidated not to do so...bad parental advice I'm afraid! Ok, you summed the BR & LH situation well. Yes, Buddy beats every one with speed endurance and he can ramp the accelerator button without tension, like a Carl Lewis would over the 100 m while others tire out unrelaxed wasting power. Perhaps LH can do the same...but there's no footage of it I've seen.
Standardfrank 4 years ago
Buddy Rich - Brush Strokes - 1982
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Yes, I've listened to it as you advised...about 20 times already and counting as I'm working on line. The arrangement is superb and the music delightful, especially towards the end. Hahaha...Buddy reminds of that character in the Munsters! lol! Mediocrity reigns unfortunately...may it was the 'Beatles' that started it all with their sad life draining sounds...that for some reason most people like! Shucks!
Standardfrank 4 years ago
Yes this is a superb chart, and Buddy's band plays it to perfection. It just goes to show the youngsters, if they are willing to listen, that you need not play fast and loud to make great music.
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Thanks Mark. Ok. Put me on a learning curve a bit...who would you suggest are your top 10 drummers of all time?
Standardfrank 4 years ago
OK, no special order except Buddy being #1.
2. Joe Morello
3. Shelly Manne
4. Frankie Dunlop
5. Ben Riley
6. Mel Lewis
7. Elvin Jones
8. Art Blakey
9. Early - Pre 1968 Max Roach
10 Early - Pre 1966 Tony Williams
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Wow...Lionel H doesn't make your list. Ok he was a vibes player, not even Gene Krupa. You must be a hard man to please. Ok, thanks for the list. I'll do some research and get back to you. Thanks.
Standardfrank 4 years ago
Yeah, it's hard to come up with a top 10 when there were so many great Jazz drummers. No, LH did not make the list. He didn't do that much work as a drummer, and I base my top 10 picks, and all of my favorites, on concept. Shelly Manne and Mel Lewis were not known for speed, but they could SWING and each had a unique concept of playing.
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Hi Mark1957 - Long time! I;ve checked out some members of your top 10! I've come back to watch Frankie Dunlop again! He's stock grows with me, he's trully great! Effortless...you know your stuff! Max Roach...I am not that impressed with so far, so I have to ferret out pre 1968 clips of him.
Standardfrank 4 years ago
There are some excellent early Max videos here. Check hi out with Art Blakey and Elvin Jones. I'll try and find it for you. Max was HOT, then he forgot about using traditional grip, and became a mere shadow of his former self later in his career.
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Ok that would be great Mark. Yes, I will do some checking also. Thanks for your great guidance! I think a huge product launch tribute/ or docu-film-genius should be produced that shows their remarkable skills! There is so much mediocrity today, that even youngsters watching masters at work will be blown away from the conventional rubbish they've been brainwashed with. As some one said...why do drugs when you can listen to great integrating drummers fusing your senses together!
Standardfrank 4 years ago
Frank -- also check out Papa Jo Jones. There is a GREAT 1964 solo of him on that drummer world dot com site. The man had a beautiful buzz roll. Check it out and tell me that was not one classy cat!
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Ok..I'll get back to ya!
Standardfrank 4 years ago
Punch in "elvin jones max roach art blakey drum battle part 1c" on YT and see some great early Max. Too bad the camera work is so terrible. This is when Max was really a force in Jazz. His later work really went downhill, in my opinion.
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Sorry to jump in, but if you haven't checked out Joe Morello you should do so. Pretty incredible stuff.
longfade 3 years ago
lol! thanks longfade... :Joe-Morello is my favourite drummer. Thanks.
Standardfrank 3 years ago
Yeah, I noticed he was #2 on your list like 3 minutes after I posted that! A lot of guys don't even know who he is, which is kind of a drag....
longfade 3 years ago
Standardfrank 3 years ago
Thank you for the kind words, my friend.
Hope all is well with you.
There is a new Buddy Rich DVD coming out soon called "Buddy Rich Up Close", and it looks like it's going to be great - I saw a preview of it on The Drum Channel. Just for fun, give it a look.
I got an email from Joe Morello a few weeks ago - he's doing well and still swinging. He is amazing. What a cooool cat, daddy-o.
Take Care, Harry ~
MarkR1957 3 years ago
Hi Mark - Joe Morello, well what a guy. My favourite drummer always has the time with great humility and courtesy of those who engage him. I was thinking...when I look at greats #1 hunchos within any endevour there is always that other great that mirrow- shadows the highly acclaimed...Gottfried Leibniz/Sir Issac Newton, Beethoven/Bach, Plato/Aristotle, John Hanson/George Washington...one is well known or lauded in popular acclaim the other isn't...in drumming, its Papa Joey Jones/Buddy Rich.
Standardfrank 3 years ago
best bop drummers?
madchops82 3 years ago
Ha! Dont' get me on youngsters on Rock! They're crazy lunatics. In fact, most musicians today are not really mastercraftsmen, sport is the same too. Infact, kids today are just dummied down so badly they have no appreciation for great musicians in any genre as long as its loud without them having to know the historical relevance to what their listening too.
I will continue to listen to the Jazz Masters here..I've learned a lot just from your astute comments alone. Thanks.
Standardfrank 4 years ago
Thanks, Frank! Yeah, here in the States people in general seem to celebrate the mediocre and throw money at those who create it. Very sad. They do not seek out a higher standard. They are satisfied with whatever is popular, and whatever is popular is usually pretty lame. Sorry you don't play, but keep listening!
MarkR1957 4 years ago
Sad fact -- 2 years ago I read a study of music sales in the States. Jazz and Classical had last place in sales, with a COMBINED total of 4% of all the music sold. That is a sad statement on today's society.
People need to wake up, but I fear they shall not.Come on people, there is more out there than what you see on MTV.
MarkR1957 4 years ago