The Meaning of Middle Earth: Personal Reflections on J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings"

[Zodslayer]

You said something powerful in this video. "Evil is not an original thing, but rather the perversion of something good." That statement belongs to me now and for that I give this video a thumbs up. Thanks!

[Zodslayer]

I liked your video. I too have drawn some personal meanings from the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. It is right up there with The Matrix for me personally. For me, Middle Earth is my mind. Remember how Wormtongue had taken control of The mind of King Theoden? When the Wizard released Theoden from the evil whisperings of Wormtongue, Theoden was ready to defend his kingdom. The world is constantly trying to make us believe that self destructive thoughts are our own, but they are not.

[EnochEmery251]

I found Lord of the Rings in the same way. I watched that animated version all the time as a small kid, and then wanted to read the books.

[thruthebook]

Tolkien never mentioned the heavy symbolism from Freemasonry in the Lord of the Rings which cannot be coincidence. He was most probably a high level witch (Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn) and channeled his work from the demonic realms. LOTR is undoubtedly a view of REAL history from the point of view of witches. Even Tolkien didn't lie when he said his work was HISTORY. He was also probably a Jesuit who are at the top of the witch pyramid.

[thruthebook]

I hope you find out what witches think of the Lord of the Rings. Look at John Todd on YouTube.

[thruthebook]

I hope you find out what witchs think of the Lord of the Rings. Look at John Todd on YouTube.

[SvenTviking]

Also, the morality of Tolkien's work seems to be more generally Christian than singularly catholic, and CS Lewis is much more openly expousing christian values in "The Lion the witch and the wordrobe." And as an Anglo catholic, living in a very protestant country and writing at first for British audiences, making too strong a catholic point to his novels might have caused unpopularity.

[tumbleweedjoe]

@SvenTviking Concerning concerning your second point, read the following from Tolkien's mouth: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work," he wrote, "unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like "religion", to cults or practices, in the Imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism" (Letter 142).

[noisss1000]

@SvenTviking Evangelical Christianity is very untolerant, I've seen evangelicals burning LOTR books accusing it with magic and occultism (lol). In Catholicism you can meet God by science, book, poem or movie. It means that you can find allegories and recreate the bible story as it reflects again and again. Bible is the root story in our culture from which we extrapolate emotions to.our everyday life - thats why we're so delighted with books and movies like LOTR. Sorry for my english

[SvenTviking]

I think you missed the point of the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion. Sauron and his master, Morgoth rebel against the order and law of the Valar and the creator Iluvatar. They are anarchists reveling in chaos. The end of the LOTR sees the whole of middle Earth become one kingdom under Elessar.

[tumbleweedjoe]

@SvenTviking Concerning your first point, Tolkien again: “My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) — or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remain obstinate!…

[tumbleweedjoe]

@SvenTviking ...Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people… The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity" -J.R.R. Tolkien. So, while its true that Middle Earth is united under one kingdom, still Tolkien seems to view the just king as a necessary evil, not desirable in itself.

[ammazzamoro]

I like this essay very much.

+++

Alms. Fasting. Prayer.

[Billhawk74]

I don't know if you'll see this comment as this video is nearly a year old, but have you read or listened to any of Peter Kreeft's work about L.O.T.R. and Catholicism?

[tumbleweedjoe]

@Billhawk74 No I haven't. I didn't know he'd written anything in that area. I'll have to check it out.

[Billhawk74]

@tumbleweedjoe If you get the chance, check out his book "The Philosophy of Tolkien" or go to his website and in the featured audio section check out lectures 4,28 or 29

[1tontomato]

Tolkien, devout Catholic and awesome author!

No surprise that Tolkien is a great author and thinker. Many great Catholic saints have written deep spiritual books.

Tolkien's story would not be as strong if it was not for his faith.

Cheers!

[TeraDeforming]

the many rings given out to the leaders of their races represented many different types goverments, but they were all fooled for the rings were all bound by the same master rings, and that ring was goverment. power corupts

[tumbleweedjoe]

Wow. good one.

[C2209w]

Everything in LOTR can be interpreted from a religious prespective, even so the book is no allegorical.

The chronological structure of the narration freely adheres and follows the main christian cycles of the year: Advent - Christmas - Lent - Holy Week and Easter.

The destruction of the Ring, which occured "by chance" (really "by Grace") takes place on march 25, thus is closely related (chronologically) to the main Misteries of Salvation.

[tumbleweedjoe]

Yeah, there's so much stuff. I had to cut a lot of what I wanted to say out.

[kingdomofheaven123]

Wow man...How do you right so much?

Your so into it that sometimes I don't even get what your saying.

How old are you and what do you do?

[tumbleweedjoe]

Teacher. 26. I just love my faith and Tolkien and Liberty, so this is the stuff I'm interested in. Thanks for your kind comments. :-)

[kingdomofheaven123]

Wish I had a teacher that loved Tolkien Books!

I hope we can talk again another time.

TTYL

[kingdomofheaven123]

Oh man...I feel really dumb right now... After listening to the video, it took me some time to understand but I finally did. Yeah, I'm quite stupid sometimes.

But great video!

[kingdomofheaven123]

Great Video! Real profound and thoughtful. How much time did you spend doing this?

The only thing I do not get is the way you compared Frodo and Jesu*s.

I hope it doesn't bother you to explain it to me.

TTYl

[tumbleweedjoe]

Took me a while to get this one done. I had was writing it in my head for a week or so before I put it down on paper, then i had to cut about 75% out for time. I plan to do a follow up in the future. Frodo is a *type* of Christ (type is a term from Catholic biblical interpertarion, meaning a person or event which contains prophetic or symbolic elements referring to Christ. An example would be the parallel between Moses' infant escape from death and Christ's). Its not allegory. Rather, there's..

[noisss1000]

@tumbleweedjoe Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf are like tree types of Christ.

[tumbleweedjoe]

...a bit of Christ in Frodo, as there is in Gandalf and Aragorn. Tolkien made it pretty explicit in Frodo's case by making him 33, the traditional age of Christ at his crucifixion. The Messiah is priest, prophet and king. Christ excercises all 3 of these roles in the Gospel. Frodo is priest (he offers the sacrafice) Gandalf is prophet (calls the good people out of obscurity to fight evil, wanders around, etc) and Aragorn is obviously king. Tolkien was a philologist and helped translate..

[tumbleweedjoe]

...the Jerusalem Bible. He was also immersed in his faith and in the medieval world and in norse mythology. He wrote the definitive essay on Beowulf ("Beowulf:The Monsters and the Critics") that changed Beowulf scholarship forever. But LOTR isn't allegory. tolkien hated allegory. he wrote myth. Allegory is 1 for 1 representation, myths are applicable representation. So Frodo isn't Christ as such, rather, he is "Christ-like" and shows one face of Christ, albiet through an imperfect creature.

[HubertPaetz]

2:40+ Great. Yeah, the paradox of naturalism and materialistic monism being, in fact, against nature. Atheists don't grasp that. Next week I'm gonna post a video covering this from psychological perspective. It's almost ready;).

8:45+ Great!

[tumbleweedjoe]

Awesome, share it with me when you do. I look forward to it.

[Stargazer5781]

"My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) -- or to 'unconstitutional' Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remain obstinate!...

[Stargazer5781]

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people... The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity."

-J.R.R. Tolkien

[tumbleweedjoe]

Great quote.

[anglaismoyen]

Going on my page. Thank thee.

[tumbleweedjoe]

Glad you enjoyed it.

[anglaismoyen]

You mean the video? ohh... awkward ;) I meant the quote. The video was good, too.

[tumbleweedjoe]

LMAO. Oops, my bad. That what is great too. I have the full quote on the sidebar in this video.

[anglaismoyen]

I just read the P.P.S. and was surprised that any atheists did that. I'm an atheist and I 5-starred it: it's a good video.

I mean, what's good for Leo Tolstoy is fine by me (Christian anarchism).

[tumbleweedjoe]

None have. I put that up when I posted it. In fact I should probably take it off. But its always possible that you'll run into one of the "uncool" atheists (the equivalent of a fundamentalist evangelical) who just one-stars stuff because he disagrees with the conclusion. But obviously that isn't that case here. I may make future "catholic" videos, and although I'm always up for a debate, I'm was little leary about turning my page into a christian-atheist-youtube argument page. You know?

[tumbleweedjoe]

I realize of course that such people are a minority among atheists, just as kookery is in the minority within Christendom, but there's always those loud jerks who give a bad name to the whole group and I am only interested in debating with reasonable people, since otherwise I'm wasting my time.

[nonantianarchist]

Great video.

[Sphair0n]

Wow, that was awesome and very thought-provoking!

You've already talked about a possible meaning behind the Shire and Mount Doom. A place that I find very rich with applicable ideas is Moria. The notion of unbridled greed leading to the awakening of dormant demons which are immune to material means of defense. Or all the hints to the importance of keeping one's promise/contract, as illustrated by the Dead Men of Dunharrow, among others.

One can talk about this all day long. :)

[tumbleweedjoe]

Wow I'd never thought of that! Moria is a great metaphor for greed and the Dead Men of Dunharrow observation is excellent too. Thanks.

[jonnniefivemiles]

Great stuff.

I read it (and the Hobbit) as a kid and loved it. I'm not sure about the religious interpretation, though Tolkien apparently intended one. I also remember reading the Tolkien and CS Lewis disagreed on whether a heavy-handed religious message should be a part of their novels.

Finding out that he was an anarchist (of sorts) was interesting. I also recently discovered that Ernest Hemingway was a staunch libertarian. Then there's Tolstoy, Emerson, Cummings, Orwell..

[tumbleweedjoe]

I think Tolkien and Lewis' disgreement was over the function of allegory. Tolkien wrote myth an believed myth had applicability, whereas C.S.Lewis' stories are basically 1 for 1 allegory (Aslan is Jesus, Peter is...um Peter I guess.) Tolkien had a baptised imagination. Lewis tried to design from the top down, a few Christian myths. Tolkien supported Lewis and helped bring him from atheism to Christianity, but he really didn't like Lewis' stories all that much. He felt that sort of writing was..

[tumbleweedjoe]

...artificial. But in Tolkien, its not as is if Frodo IS Jesus or Strider IS Jesus in a 1 for 1 ratio. Instead, Frodo is a type (or image of Christ) in some ways, but not in other ways. Its all very natural and no one is forced into a particular role, there are just certain relationships and parralels which emerge. Strider captures an aspect of Christ but he isn't supposed to be identical to Christ. Lewis couldn't get his head around this sort of thing. Both as an atheist and later as a...

[tumbleweedjoe]

..Christian, he was too much the literalist. And a bit of copy cat too. I still like Lewis' writings but I consider him to be Tolkien's inferior. All that stuff about literary anti-statists is very cool. I keep meaning to read Tolstoy, but never get around to it.

[lengthyounarther]

Nice, I read almost no non-fiction, but LOTR and its related works have long fascinated me. After I became an anarchist I decided that the Ring of power was a great allegory for the state, an idea I gave even more credence years later when I heard the Tolkien was a private property anarchist. What do you think? Also connecting Iceland with LOTR, the Icelandic verb smýgur, means to slip through which fits smeagol nicely. Wiki sites old english but JRRT was familiar with both.

[tumbleweedjoe]

If have a long quote in the sidebar where Tolkien talks about his brand of anarchism. I also have part of that quote on my profile page. Its likely that the Icelandic and Old Enlgish words cross polinated quite a bit. Remember the Normans (North(or Norse) Men) invaded England in 1066. Viking blood and language is all over Europe, because their ship allowed them to access virtually any part of Western Europe.

[tumbleweedjoe]

Tolkien hated allegory, instead he talked about mythic truths as 'applicable" (rather than allegorical.) The Ring is not exactly the state, but it is applicable to the state.

[elliotcheely]

i like that =)

well done.