I was hoping they would have done a follow-up at the end of the series finale. Bartlet and Santos impatiently waiting for one more "dignitary", who arrived late - Governor Sam Seaborn of California. Bartlet and Santos could have teased him: "After all the campaigning we did for you last year..." :-)
There are definetly problems with this scene (continuity, giving away future plots, ect.) but it makes one hell of an opening for the series. Shame they couldn't have got Sam and maybe Mandy in for old times sake.
Ok, so was this in the original airing or not? John Spencer died midway through the airing of the season, but I imagine they wouldn't have had him there in the original airing anyway because it would have spoiled it.
Leo was not present in this scene when this was originally broadcast, in September 2005. To have him there would have given away the result of the election. The producers weren't sure (at that time) who would win.
One thing I was bothered about was that Will, as a freshman Congressman, was on Ways and Means. That just simply isn't possible. IRL Congressmen have to wait until they have had a few terms to get on that committee - they ALL want to be on it.
This was re-shot for the DVD. The original televised version did have Leo McGarry present, after John Spencer's untimely death the writers changed the scene to reflect the fact that the character of Leo McGarry had also passed away.
I think the reason that Leo wasn't there was that they would have had to call him "Mr Vice President" which would have given everything away.
Also Lawrence O'Donnell (one of the WW writers) has said several times that Santos was always going to win, they just thought it would be more interesting if the race was close
The whole Vinick was going to win (which would have been more realistic from what I understand of American politics) was cooked up by the New York Post, not the writers
It has always annoyed me that they never returned to this scene at the end of the show and who the President was - but having paused the scene as the Preisdent arrives at the exact moment the new President moves himself forward to get of of the car - it looks like Santos - not Vinick - hes too tall for Vinick - so maybe given the fact that they were maybe going to give it to Vinick they couldnt return to this scene.
I don't get it. This was aired long before Leo/John's death. This was when the writers were certain they were going to give the election to Vinick. What is Josh doing? For all the world, it seems like he works for Vinick. Nowhere in the show was there ever any indication that Josh would "lower" himself to working for Vinick. He never espoused an ounce of respect for the man. I know this was a bit of misdirection on the writers part, but it just doesn't make sense if Vinick was supposed to win.
I agree in part, but I think a possible twist in a Vinick win scenario (like Santos offering Vinick SoS) is after seeing how hard Josh worked, offering him a role in the West Wing Staff. Josh would accept it despite the political differences (just like Ainsley accepted the dep counsel job). I can absolutely see the writers doing that in the end, especially to mollify those viewers upset at a Vinick win :)
@dkrehbiel - I would think it would be more about the myth of "bipartisanship" than anything to do with Josh's ability, but I think your scenario is 99% the answer. :)
@dkrehbiel There is no earthly way Josh Lyman would work in a Republican White House. Ainsley worked as a lawyer, Josh would be out there helping shape political and legal developments.
@tfn105 I'm not sure there's "no earthly way". Josh lives and breathes national politics, and he'd give a lot to stay in it. There's a line in Isaac and Ishmael that ends: "I'm gonna be in my office six Presidents from now, Wile E. Coyote and a map." Josh wasn't being completely serious, but he wasn't just joking, either. Leo says at one point that Bartlet "likes smart people who disagree with him"; if a Republican President came along with a similar philosophy, wouldn't Josh be a damn good fit?
@GoodwillieGoodwillie Hmm... not sure about that. Like I said in my previous comment, there's a big difference between being a lawyer for the president and being a senior political aide who helps shape and control the political agenda. Josh is a Democrat through and through and his ideology is incompatible with the Republicans. And anyway, when he says he'll be in his office six presidents from now, there's nothing there to suggest he doesn't mean irrespective of political party
@tfn105 I forgot where I read it, but apparently when this episode was written (before John Spencer/Leo McGarry's death) Vinick was supposed to win, so either Josh joined the Vinick campaign on was simply outside and alerted the Bartlett that the current President had arived
@OcTorthed Unfortunately that's a common - but false - rumour. What the writers at the time actually said was that they enjoyed writing a presidential race where they could potentially enjoy either nominee winning. However it was always going to be Santos winning. What they did change was the manner Santos won, for obvious reasons.
According to Lawrence O'Donnell in the New York Times, Vinick was supposed to win indicating the common shifts of political power in modern America. After Spencer's death though, it was agreed that the audience shouldn't suffer two major loses at the end of the series.
I was hoping they would have done a follow-up at the end of the series finale. Bartlet and Santos impatiently waiting for one more "dignitary", who arrived late - Governor Sam Seaborn of California. Bartlet and Santos could have teased him: "After all the campaigning we did for you last year..." :-)
observer9670 7 months ago 11
@observer9670
Good suggestion
cbrooks0911 6 months ago
There are definetly problems with this scene (continuity, giving away future plots, ect.) but it makes one hell of an opening for the series. Shame they couldn't have got Sam and maybe Mandy in for old times sake.
jamie32501 7 months ago
Ok, so was this in the original airing or not? John Spencer died midway through the airing of the season, but I imagine they wouldn't have had him there in the original airing anyway because it would have spoiled it.
homris 10 months ago
Leo was not present in this scene when this was originally broadcast, in September 2005. To have him there would have given away the result of the election. The producers weren't sure (at that time) who would win.
One thing I was bothered about was that Will, as a freshman Congressman, was on Ways and Means. That just simply isn't possible. IRL Congressmen have to wait until they have had a few terms to get on that committee - they ALL want to be on it.
MegaObserver1 11 months ago
@MegaObserver1 Well, the fact that Josh announces the arrival of the President is a big nod to Santos winning, i.e. Josh became the Chief of Staff.
tfn105 10 months ago
@tfn105 I know. That hint was just a little too big.
Did you notice that right as the "next" president gets out of the car, you can see he has black hair (right as he bends down to get out)?
With Vinick's head looking like Leslie Nielson, that was probably a slight mistake on the show.
MegaCrevice 10 months ago
@MegaObserver1 - John Ensign was on Ways and Means as a freshman Congressman. So while its unlikely, you cannot say its impossible.
Surlish 3 months ago
I wish Sam was here
profoundpasta 1 year ago 5
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Argh I hate Charlie! Worst character ever!
Cirvantes123 1 year ago
@Cirvantes123 here's assuming that was sarcasm....
nikolausrimsky1 1 year ago
This was re-shot for the DVD. The original televised version did have Leo McGarry present, after John Spencer's untimely death the writers changed the scene to reflect the fact that the character of Leo McGarry had also passed away.
EireCA 1 year ago
I think the reason that Leo wasn't there was that they would have had to call him "Mr Vice President" which would have given everything away.
Also Lawrence O'Donnell (one of the WW writers) has said several times that Santos was always going to win, they just thought it would be more interesting if the race was close
The whole Vinick was going to win (which would have been more realistic from what I understand of American politics) was cooked up by the New York Post, not the writers
2026Walker 1 year ago
@2026Walker Actually this scene was thought up and filmed after John Spencer's death. They couldn't have him there.
RapidCityJM 1 year ago
Comment removed
homris 10 months ago
It has always annoyed me that they never returned to this scene at the end of the show and who the President was - but having paused the scene as the Preisdent arrives at the exact moment the new President moves himself forward to get of of the car - it looks like Santos - not Vinick - hes too tall for Vinick - so maybe given the fact that they were maybe going to give it to Vinick they couldnt return to this scene.
I wish they would do a reunion
wwjeb1 1 year ago
I don't get it. This was aired long before Leo/John's death. This was when the writers were certain they were going to give the election to Vinick. What is Josh doing? For all the world, it seems like he works for Vinick. Nowhere in the show was there ever any indication that Josh would "lower" himself to working for Vinick. He never espoused an ounce of respect for the man. I know this was a bit of misdirection on the writers part, but it just doesn't make sense if Vinick was supposed to win.
boneyardbill 1 year ago
I agree in part, but I think a possible twist in a Vinick win scenario (like Santos offering Vinick SoS) is after seeing how hard Josh worked, offering him a role in the West Wing Staff. Josh would accept it despite the political differences (just like Ainsley accepted the dep counsel job). I can absolutely see the writers doing that in the end, especially to mollify those viewers upset at a Vinick win :)
dkrehbiel 1 year ago
@dkrehbiel - I would think it would be more about the myth of "bipartisanship" than anything to do with Josh's ability, but I think your scenario is 99% the answer. :)
Surlish 1 year ago
@dkrehbiel There is no earthly way Josh Lyman would work in a Republican White House. Ainsley worked as a lawyer, Josh would be out there helping shape political and legal developments.
tfn105 10 months ago
@tfn105 I'm not sure there's "no earthly way". Josh lives and breathes national politics, and he'd give a lot to stay in it. There's a line in Isaac and Ishmael that ends: "I'm gonna be in my office six Presidents from now, Wile E. Coyote and a map." Josh wasn't being completely serious, but he wasn't just joking, either. Leo says at one point that Bartlet "likes smart people who disagree with him"; if a Republican President came along with a similar philosophy, wouldn't Josh be a damn good fit?
GoodwillieGoodwillie 6 months ago
@GoodwillieGoodwillie Hmm... not sure about that. Like I said in my previous comment, there's a big difference between being a lawyer for the president and being a senior political aide who helps shape and control the political agenda. Josh is a Democrat through and through and his ideology is incompatible with the Republicans. And anyway, when he says he'll be in his office six presidents from now, there's nothing there to suggest he doesn't mean irrespective of political party
tfn105 6 months ago
@tfn105 I forgot where I read it, but apparently when this episode was written (before John Spencer/Leo McGarry's death) Vinick was supposed to win, so either Josh joined the Vinick campaign on was simply outside and alerted the Bartlett that the current President had arived
OcTorthed 2 weeks ago
@OcTorthed Unfortunately that's a common - but false - rumour. What the writers at the time actually said was that they enjoyed writing a presidential race where they could potentially enjoy either nominee winning. However it was always going to be Santos winning. What they did change was the manner Santos won, for obvious reasons.
tfn105 2 weeks ago
@tfn105
According to Lawrence O'Donnell in the New York Times, Vinick was supposed to win indicating the common shifts of political power in modern America. After Spencer's death though, it was agreed that the audience shouldn't suffer two major loses at the end of the series.
LYLS3637 3 days ago
@OcTorthed Plus if you freeze it at 1:54 you can see Jimmy Smit's black hair briefly (and this was aired prior to John Spencer's death)
tfn105 2 weeks ago