@carlsonap16 Yes, Sorry for taking so long to write it...I had a LOT on my mind. I hope you like it...and I hope to send and receive many more emails between us.
@carlsonap16 But, where is the Justice in that? Also how cruel is that?
Imagine the person you love most in the entire world being murdered, and then the killer turns to you and says "if you don't say that person was a sinner worthy of death, I'll kill you too!"
I see no benevolence here, I see no love, no justice, no mercy, no chance at redemption...All I see is "might makes right", All I see is "We're Christians so anything we do is morally justifiable."
@999theshadow999 i agree regarding murder;i also dont support murder.now we need to define murder.please offer your definition.i dont believe giving love, justice,mercy or redemption when the person doesnt deserve it.might doesn't make right.obeying nature's laws is what makes right.& again i'm not a christian im an Essene Jew.Christian means proclaimer of Christ.the jews proclaim Christ too as they are waiting for him.but connotatively,im not a christian. send me an email i sent you 2 emails.
On top of all that...what definition of hate are you using? Cause I would love see to it...furthermore you didn't address any of his points.
He NEVER talked about God hating and loving anybody...he talked about how God said he loved us, yet committed horrors that practically scream "EVIL" at the top of their lungs.
Like I said before, Hating or disliking someone or even just parts of someone is one thing...killing them and their BABIES and enslaving the daughter isn't "just" hatred it's EVIL!!
@999theshadow999 on what logical basis do you judge something to be evil or not evil? appealing to emotion is just as fallacious as appealing to the bible.
@999theshadow999 you still have not offered a logical reason why those things are evil or immoral. "at least to me they are".. your objections only mtter if there is absolute morality.if there is absolute morality it would only be based on logical scientific principles and not hocus pocus.od doesn't create morality, so truthfully if you are basing your morality on a religious text, and not on logic, that would be foolish. now, don't make assumptions but fairly analyze things and be consistent.
@carlsonap16 I don't understand, my response wasn't connected to ANY religious text.
Also, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If the virgins are innocent what about sex, something 100% necessary for continued existence, makes people death-deserving sinners?
If they soldiers aren't committing sins when they rape and pillage...why are they the exception?
The ten commandments CAN'T be the ten commandments if their can be exceptions...not even one.
@999theshadow999 i know your response wasnt based on a religious text. i'm clrifying and saying i do not base my beliefs about morality on religious texts; i attempt to use pure logic to discern what is morally good.sex is not the issue.the hebrew word is not virgin, but refers to someone who is currently not having sex.it refers to an abstainer. sex is not wrong, but being a sexual partner to a capital sinner is wrong. why do you limit it to the 10? all commandments apply, including the 613.
@carlsonap16 Remember your earlier catch-22? According to your own words everybody either IS or IS NOT innocent.
You're placing morally superiority on virgins...but I don't know why, because of your catch-22.
Also killing CANNOT be an absolute if their are exceptions to the rule. Which we both agree their are.
You say your beliefs about morality aren't based on religion...so why are you talking about sin? Why are you trying to tell me they deserve it because of a sinful nature?
@999theshadow999 moral superiority isnt on virgins.moral superiority is on abstains.in this context,its abstainers from capital crimes.any child which is guilty of a capital crime shouldnt b spared.neither should a virgin.all sexual abstainers who rnt guilty of a capital crime should b spared.killing isnt an absolute prohibition.murder is.i use the word sin as the same as immoral and evil.no, theres no such thing as sin nature.sum1 deserves death if they choose 2 do sumthing capitally evil.
@999theshadow999 i don't think you realize how language works; there is literal meaning and contextual meaning. if a text says do not kill but does not say do not all kill, then it either means do not do any killing or do not do a particular type of killing. almost always, without the word all inserted, its a particular type and not every kind. thus, not all pride is wrong. not all sex is wrong. not all anger is wrong. not all hate is wrong. not all lust is wrong. etc
@carlsonap16 Here's the problem: They DID kill EVERYONE!!! Except the virgins...who were obviously going to be made into sex slaves. Literal or contextual...women were made into sex slaves without God EVER complaining about it. The bible backs me up on this. Deuteronomy 20:10-14 Numbers 31:7-18 Judges 21:10-24 2 Samuel 12:11-14 Deuteronomy 22:23-24 Judges 5:30 Exodus 21:7-11...not about killing, it's about sex slaves. Zechariah 14:1-2
@999theshadow999 i told you, you don't understand hebrew quit trying to tell me what the bible says when you can't read it properly. they were not made sex slaves. Zechariah 14 is a prophecy that Israel will have its women raped by the enemy & the enemy will be punished for it; quit taking things out of their contexts.virgins & children were to be spared so long as they didn't commit a capital crime.don't cite total genocides where infants were killed, since in those cases the virgins were too.
@999theshadow999 there is no perfectly translated bible but i'm working on one as i am the only one who believes in 100% super literal translation. God has predestined all things, and so He only causes it as choosing between the less evil thing. He is forced to plan things with evil resulting, so He must pick the least evil way, and this is the least evil way in consideration of free will.
@999theshadow999 if you want to have a better more focused and organized discussion, please let us use youtube email; this thread is not practical. i am a philosophical skeptic and a rationalist, so all objections to what the bible says, i will challenge you on a philosophical and rational basis and show you that you don't have a logical leg to stand on as you are inconsistent with your beliefs (presumably; you could be one of the rare ones, but i doubt it)
So Moses taking woman as SPOILS OF WAR...didn't violate their rights? o___0
I'm sorry, but I fail to understand you COMPLETELY, PLEASE EXPLAIN.
These people had a right to live healthy and happy lives...yet God ordered them dead.
Hating someone is one thing...Killing people and MURDERING CHILDREN is something else entirely, Selling young girls into SEXUAL SLAVERY is something else entirely. This isn't strong dislike.
Please enlighten me, because your argument goes completely over my head...
@999theshadow999 slavery is not always a violation of rights. the women they captures in war were not forced to be married to anyone.furthermore, i have always said if the bible teaches anything illogical or immoral it should be rejected. so just prove something is immoral and i'll reject it.not all killing of children is wrong either, otherwise you would be against eating food. so be consistent and either condemn all killing, justify why only one kind of killing is bad while another is not.
@carlsonap16 Huh, what....? These guys MURDERED EVERY MAN, NON-VIRGIN WOMAN, CHILDREN AND BABIES!!!
The only ones they spared were the VIRGIN GIRLS...What do you THINK they intend to do with them?
Make them neighbors? Write them a "sorry, I slaughtered your entire family and took over your country" card? You can't be that innocent
I guess black people's rights weren't being violated...So I guess Abraham Lincoin, Fredrick Douglas and many African slaves just "misunderstood" their situation?
@999theshadow999 on what basis do you conclude it was murder? the virgins and youth were all spared. why? because all adult men and their wives deserved to die because of their sins.
@carlsonap16 What is your definition of murder and why doesn't this apply to them?
Also you can't be naive...the adult men, the non-virgin women, the children, the babies are ALL killed but the virgins they get to live.
Can you imagine the post-tramatic stress, the survivor's guilt, the scars of rape. Also you can't be that naive...As I mentioned before what do you THINK the soldiers would do to them?
@999theshadow999 i define murder as disrespectful killing. i define respectful killing as all killing that is for the sake of mortality: that being food, shelter, defense, and justice. the biblical text says the children were not to be killed. which passages are you referring to which says the children were also killed but not the virgins? keep in mind again you need to remember english is not the same as hebrew.
@carlsonap16 Are you seriously implying that the children weren't virgins? By proxy, the murdered babies ALSO have to be non-virgins.
Am I missing something here? What about pregnant woman, the fetus are definitely virgins.
Also where is the justice in murdering children...I missed that class of ethics? Under what possible circumstances could the murder of children and the genocide...yes, genocide of a people be justified when the army doing the killing has God on its side?
@999theshadow999 not all children are virgins. the bible regards children as 5 year olds to 20 year olds. pregnant women are guilty for their children's deaths inside them. there is no justice in murder ever. no as selfdefense, children sometimes must be killed or else it is a descration of essence.
and yes not all genocide is wrong either. nor sir, you yourself approve of some genocide, some killing of innocents, and some slavery too. so i find it hypocritical of you.
@999theshadow999 Unless you are unique among every person i have met, it was a safe assumption to make. for this specfici accusation of mine, please let us continue this portion of the discussion in the email i sent you. it is there where i will explain why you are a supporter of genocide sometimes and slavery (probably).
@999theshadow999 if the soldiers were righteous, they wouldn't violate them. if you look at the text, it says they were given a month to mourn. if it was about sexual slavery they wouldn't be given a month to mourn
@carlsonap16 A month to get over the slaughter of their family, the destruction of their homes, and the deaths of nearly everyone and everything they ever knew and loved...
I'm sorry, but no...that's like a murderer killing an entire family, but then making a youtube apology video saying how tragic and sad it was...sorry that doesn't get him off the hook.
Same thing here...a month to mourn the death of their friends and families and slavery... how nice...wait, NO IT ISN'T!
@999theshadow999 they deserved to die. you have a month to get over your loved ones that deserved to die. and if you publicly state that they didn't deserve death then you would deserve death too.
@999theshadow999 the Bible says it is a sin to kidnap humans and enslave them. what did americans do to the africans? they captured them and then enslaved them. so that was wrong according to the biblical teaching.
@carlsonap16 Actually, back then the bible was actually used to justify slavery, used to make it sound okay.
Also if it's wrong according to biblical teaching, why is it a-okay when Christian soldiers do it? Why are there rules for HOW to do it if it's SO wrong?
Carlsonap16, buddy don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
You can't have it both ways...if it's wrong then these passages are wrong and immoral and if they aren't wrong and immoral God MUST be okay with sexual slavery.
@999theshadow999 i know, but they ignored what the bible taught. i am not a christian at least not what you know christianity to be. i am an essene jew; i do not affiliate with any christian group.
@carlsonap16 Then why didn't God say "Hey, what are you doing? This is just, this isn't a righteous war, thou art not honoring my bible or me!"
If this is bad...why is it written RIGHT THERE on the pages in black ink? They are never punished for "ignoring what the bible taught" they are never rebuked by God, they never face the consequences of their actions.
If any army today did these things it would be splashed all over the news and condemned by virtually everyone and they would be arrested
@carlsonap16 Huh, what....? These guys MURDERED EVERY MAN, NON-VIRGIN WOMAN, CHILDREN AND BABIES!!!
The only ones they spared were the VIRGIN GIRLS...What do you THINK they intend to do with them?
Make them neighbors? Write them a "sorry, I slaughtered your entire family and took over your country" card? You can't be that innocent
I guess black people's rights weren't being violated...So I guess Abraham Lincoin, Fredrick Douglas and many African slaves just "misunderstood" their situation?
@carlsonap16 On the contrary carlonap16, God has no problem with it and in fact according to him its fine! Exodus 21: 5-6 NIV...the husband and father can go free, but the wife and daughter has still ENSLAVED, any loving man couldn't bring him to abandon them and would then become a PERMANENT SLAVE
Exodus 21:7-11 NIV...Sexual slavery is OK! If it was wrong God would've said something right?
Judges 21:10-24...The only one they spare are the virgin girls...gee, I wonder why? Hint: rape
@999theshadow999 Exodus 21 has nothing to do with sexual slavery. when you buy a woman you have an obligation to give her a husband or to free her. yes i am fine with permanent slaves. when did i say i wasn't? no it wasn't for rape. its because all others deserved to die because of their sins, but the virgins did not commit sins worthy of destruction.
@carlsonap16 What about the doctrine of original sin? Also why do virgins get a free pass, what is it about sex that instantly transforms them into people who deserve to die for their sins?
Also since murder is a sin...all those who kill in God's name are committing a sin and if you say they aren't, that means they are an EXCEPTION and if so "thou shalt not kill" CANNOT possibly be a commandment since commandments are supposed to be moral absolutes.
@999theshadow999 the doctrine of original sin is 1 of the most blasphemous things the flse religion of christianity teaches.virgins & children get a free pass because they were not partners of those that deserve death.if u choose to be united (aka marrige) to a murderer & yet choose not 2 do anything about it,r u not supporting them in their murder by remaining married to them?thus u deserve 2b killed 4 ur spouses capital crimes.u shall not kill in context means dont kill without justification.
@carlsonap16 0___o... carlsonap...you don't realize it but you have created a catch-22.
If ALL virgins and children are innocent...then when they can only marry other innocents...since EVERYBODY starts innocent.
Also if the parents are sinful, since the children and virgins are their offspring have a parent-child bond...they by your definition CAN'T start innocent.
You've created a paradox...where either everyone IS or IS NOT innocent.
@999theshadow999 all virgins and children are innocent of marriage sins, not of all sins. not all married individuals are guilty of marriage sins, but if a nation deserves to be destroyed, it only deserves to be destroyed because all the adult men and all the married couples were involved in a heinous crime.
@carlsonap16 But, Carlsonap...if all non-virgins are sinful and deserving of death...then how can you POSSIBLY say "not all married individuals are guilty of marriage sins."
Also, if virgins and children have committed sins...then they aren't innocent.
I see you trapping yourself in a paradox...the idea of virgins and children not being innocent of sin and yet not being worthy of death are mutually exclusive concept.
Sins are sins because they get you sent to hell, because God punishes sin.
@999theshadow999 ".if all non-virgins are sinful and deserving of death" they're not. we are dealing with various nations which all of their nonvirgins and nonchildren were deserving of death. God doesn't punish sin in my view; nature punishes sin. God is just a scribe.
@carlsonap16 Not according to Zechariah 14, Noah's flood, kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden, creating Hell, punishing both sinners and demons and the devil.
Nope, God's killed plenty and judged and punished plenty...nature has nothing to do with it, God isn't passive when it comes to punishing sin with death.
@999theshadow999 Where does it say God creates hell? the punishments you cite of God are not referring to eternal punishment. He doesn't punish anyone in hell. If God has wronged anyone, He will be punished with hell as well. he is not exempt.
@999theshadow999 - There indeed are many harsh judgments from God, most people prefer to ignore them and make a false impression of him in their minds of a Anything Goes Sugar Daddy. Would be easier, but that's not how it is.
Exodus 21:7-8: "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself."
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 : If a man rapes a woman, she has to marry him! Marrying your own RAPIST!!!
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 and Judges 5:30 are even more direct about it.
God had no problem with sexual slavery... HE MADE RULES ON HOW TO DO IT!!!!
@999theshadow999 the Hebrew doesnt say rape.i dont base my interpretations of ancient Hebrew texts on pathetic translations like the ones made today.the ancients were much better at translations.all modern translators are a joke.regrding Exodus 21: that translatio also is false,& implies something that the hebrew doesn't.the true teaching that is spoken here is that the master selects a female slave for himself 2b his slave not his sex slve, but he must give her a husband, or he must free her.
Women in those times had virtually NO rights, NO liberties and if you read the text it says... "If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." If she's not a good lay...just ship her back! Not even exaggerating about that!
I have to say it a second time don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
You can't be that Naive...what do you think was going on? Really? Doesn't this AT LEAST look suspect?
@999theshadow999 a woman who was sold into slavery worked as a slave until she was given a husband. sex is only for procreation, so a woman has absolutely every right to not sin, and thus she must not allow sex when she is pregnant or menstruating or old. it is true that virgins and wives have less rights, but if you look at numbers it explicitly says widows have some rights married women and virgins don't. it is an exaggeration that women did not have any rights.
@carlsonap16 Woman could be sold as slaves married to whomever their owners choose, they can't be freed. Once you were married, the husband basically owned you because you only had rights if you were a widow.
You keep showing your naivety, if what you're saying was true their would only be male slaves...the ONLY reason A MAN would get a FEMALE slave is sex.
They aren't as strong or endurable so they aren't be bought for farm work and males can cook and clean too...so what else could it be, sex
@999theshadow999 no it has nothing to do with sex you are making an assumption. read proverbs 31 which describes how productive a woman can be with her hands and not her vagina.
I agree with most this, I noticed the same things in the scriptures ,the main thing i dont understand is when you said to NOT hate you would be violating your own rights, can you expound upon that abit please?
@sparkshot Certainly: I believe sin is to be understood solely as disrespecting minds. When you disrespect another's mind, it is actually disrespecting your own mind. Minds have the right to (or in other words, it is right to give them) what is right. So if you deprive yourself from what is right and proper and due, you are violating your own "rights". Thus, to not hate what is evil would be to wrong, or in other words, contrary to self right[nes]s.
@carlsonap16 - I sorta get what your saying, but not totally. I did come to a conclusion a few years back similar to this; " When you disrespect another's mind, it is actually disrespecting your own mind", reason being, if I call someone a 'Prick' for instance, I'm saying in my mind that whole person is faulty, but in his mind in some way I'll be faulty so we are on equal ground, thus I just called myself a Prick! So now I might only say, "He's BEING a prick" (in a specific area) how's that?
@sparkshot if i understand it, prick is a vulgar term for penis, so i would say its always wrong to use it if you know what that means. that being said, insults are not always wrong. but if you insult something good, yes i agree with you, that's wrong. i think sin is simply contrariness to minds. being contrary to someone elses mind results in your mind being contrary to minds. but since its contrary to minds to be contrary to minds, you are being contary to yourself
No, I did not know Hitler but I know he did horrible things and he promoted hateful ideals. From what I understand he was likeable and charasmatic man who could inspire people. I'm not saying I like him. I hate the things he did but never got to know him personally so I don't hate him. I was never oppressed by him. the worst he did to me personally was that my grandfather had to go to Europe to kill people and avoid being killed by those same people because of him.
Firstly, if I may paraphrase Leonard Church, In order to hate some one you have to get to know them personally. You shouldn't hate someone just because someone tells you so. That includes god. If I'm told I have to hate someone, I'm going to need a REALLY good reason. Still I'll only dislike that person very much. I may hate their ideals but not the person. Secondly, wasn't killing all those people violating their right to life?
@Onychus I don't anyone because i'm told to. I hate people because nature obligates me to. Morally, I do not regard God as the maker of morality and the rules. God is merely a presenter of the rules that He can't change. I would ask you if you hate Hitler. You evidently do know Hitler personally, but i would say its likely you hate him because of what you know about who he was.
I can't replay to you...your email come out really bizarre looking as if it glitch or didn't come thru which is weird because I got your messages.
I click "send" but it doesn't appear in my "sent" category...I'm going to try again. I make another comment if the message doesn't go thru
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 i switched my profile to the old versio, so you should be able to send message through there now
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 I did...did you get it? Because it did appear in my "sent" category.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 yes =). i just sent my response
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Awesome
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 did you get my email?
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Yes, Sorry for taking so long to write it...I had a LOT on my mind. I hope you like it...and I hope to send and receive many more emails between us.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 me too =)
carlsonap16 2 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Yes, I did I responded...I hope you like it. :-)
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 But, where is the Justice in that? Also how cruel is that?
Imagine the person you love most in the entire world being murdered, and then the killer turns to you and says "if you don't say that person was a sinner worthy of death, I'll kill you too!"
I see no benevolence here, I see no love, no justice, no mercy, no chance at redemption...All I see is "might makes right", All I see is "We're Christians so anything we do is morally justifiable."
I don't see God or Jesus in this.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 i agree regarding murder;i also dont support murder.now we need to define murder.please offer your definition.i dont believe giving love, justice,mercy or redemption when the person doesnt deserve it.might doesn't make right.obeying nature's laws is what makes right.& again i'm not a christian im an Essene Jew.Christian means proclaimer of Christ.the jews proclaim Christ too as they are waiting for him.but connotatively,im not a christian. send me an email i sent you 2 emails.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
On top of all that...what definition of hate are you using? Cause I would love see to it...furthermore you didn't address any of his points.
He NEVER talked about God hating and loving anybody...he talked about how God said he loved us, yet committed horrors that practically scream "EVIL" at the top of their lungs.
Like I said before, Hating or disliking someone or even just parts of someone is one thing...killing them and their BABIES and enslaving the daughter isn't "just" hatred it's EVIL!!
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 on what logical basis do you judge something to be evil or not evil? appealing to emotion is just as fallacious as appealing to the bible.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Here's my standard for judging evil: I look at the intention behind the act in question.
For example: someone who accidentally kills someone, manslaughter-- isn't evil they just really thick and criminally negligent.
Murder, slavery, rape...having the intention of dominating, injuring and killing the victim...they are purposeful and intentional.
Harmful. lethal and cruel acts done with the intention of being harmful and cruel are evil...at least to me they are.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 you still have not offered a logical reason why those things are evil or immoral. "at least to me they are".. your objections only mtter if there is absolute morality.if there is absolute morality it would only be based on logical scientific principles and not hocus pocus.od doesn't create morality, so truthfully if you are basing your morality on a religious text, and not on logic, that would be foolish. now, don't make assumptions but fairly analyze things and be consistent.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 I don't understand, my response wasn't connected to ANY religious text.
Also, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If the virgins are innocent what about sex, something 100% necessary for continued existence, makes people death-deserving sinners?
If they soldiers aren't committing sins when they rape and pillage...why are they the exception?
The ten commandments CAN'T be the ten commandments if their can be exceptions...not even one.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 i know your response wasnt based on a religious text. i'm clrifying and saying i do not base my beliefs about morality on religious texts; i attempt to use pure logic to discern what is morally good.sex is not the issue.the hebrew word is not virgin, but refers to someone who is currently not having sex.it refers to an abstainer. sex is not wrong, but being a sexual partner to a capital sinner is wrong. why do you limit it to the 10? all commandments apply, including the 613.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Remember your earlier catch-22? According to your own words everybody either IS or IS NOT innocent.
You're placing morally superiority on virgins...but I don't know why, because of your catch-22.
Also killing CANNOT be an absolute if their are exceptions to the rule. Which we both agree their are.
You say your beliefs about morality aren't based on religion...so why are you talking about sin? Why are you trying to tell me they deserve it because of a sinful nature?
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 moral superiority isnt on virgins.moral superiority is on abstains.in this context,its abstainers from capital crimes.any child which is guilty of a capital crime shouldnt b spared.neither should a virgin.all sexual abstainers who rnt guilty of a capital crime should b spared.killing isnt an absolute prohibition.murder is.i use the word sin as the same as immoral and evil.no, theres no such thing as sin nature.sum1 deserves death if they choose 2 do sumthing capitally evil.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 i don't think you realize how language works; there is literal meaning and contextual meaning. if a text says do not kill but does not say do not all kill, then it either means do not do any killing or do not do a particular type of killing. almost always, without the word all inserted, its a particular type and not every kind. thus, not all pride is wrong. not all sex is wrong. not all anger is wrong. not all hate is wrong. not all lust is wrong. etc
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 i told you, you don't understand hebrew quit trying to tell me what the bible says when you can't read it properly. they were not made sex slaves. Zechariah 14 is a prophecy that Israel will have its women raped by the enemy & the enemy will be punished for it; quit taking things out of their contexts.virgins & children were to be spared so long as they didn't commit a capital crime.don't cite total genocides where infants were killed, since in those cases the virgins were too.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Zechariah 14...isn't a prophecy,it's God speaking.
Zechariah 14:2- "I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to FIGHT AGAINST it..."
God is SPEAKING, God is CAUSING this, These deaths are on God's hands...
Also if there is such a perfectly translated bible...whats wrong with every other bible ever?
2,000 years to translate the infallible word of GOD correctly...and it STILL hasn't been done?
No way, not possible...not have 2,000 years of translation.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 there is no perfectly translated bible but i'm working on one as i am the only one who believes in 100% super literal translation. God has predestined all things, and so He only causes it as choosing between the less evil thing. He is forced to plan things with evil resulting, so He must pick the least evil way, and this is the least evil way in consideration of free will.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 sorry i assumed you were citing total genocides, i was wrong so i take that comment back
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 if you want to have a better more focused and organized discussion, please let us use youtube email; this thread is not practical. i am a philosophical skeptic and a rationalist, so all objections to what the bible says, i will challenge you on a philosophical and rational basis and show you that you don't have a logical leg to stand on as you are inconsistent with your beliefs (presumably; you could be one of the rare ones, but i doubt it)
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 I accept, I can't locate my youtube email address, all I can find is my real email address.
I guess friend me and we'll talk more in depth later, But for now I'll respond to the remaining comments.
But, yeah...friend me and we'll get more in depth, than these tiny boxes.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
So Moses taking woman as SPOILS OF WAR...didn't violate their rights? o___0
I'm sorry, but I fail to understand you COMPLETELY, PLEASE EXPLAIN.
These people had a right to live healthy and happy lives...yet God ordered them dead.
Hating someone is one thing...Killing people and MURDERING CHILDREN is something else entirely, Selling young girls into SEXUAL SLAVERY is something else entirely. This isn't strong dislike.
Please enlighten me, because your argument goes completely over my head...
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 slavery is not always a violation of rights. the women they captures in war were not forced to be married to anyone.furthermore, i have always said if the bible teaches anything illogical or immoral it should be rejected. so just prove something is immoral and i'll reject it.not all killing of children is wrong either, otherwise you would be against eating food. so be consistent and either condemn all killing, justify why only one kind of killing is bad while another is not.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Huh, what....? These guys MURDERED EVERY MAN, NON-VIRGIN WOMAN, CHILDREN AND BABIES!!!
The only ones they spared were the VIRGIN GIRLS...What do you THINK they intend to do with them?
Make them neighbors? Write them a "sorry, I slaughtered your entire family and took over your country" card? You can't be that innocent
I guess black people's rights weren't being violated...So I guess Abraham Lincoin, Fredrick Douglas and many African slaves just "misunderstood" their situation?
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 on what basis do you conclude it was murder? the virgins and youth were all spared. why? because all adult men and their wives deserved to die because of their sins.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 What is your definition of murder and why doesn't this apply to them?
Also you can't be naive...the adult men, the non-virgin women, the children, the babies are ALL killed but the virgins they get to live.
Can you imagine the post-tramatic stress, the survivor's guilt, the scars of rape. Also you can't be that naive...As I mentioned before what do you THINK the soldiers would do to them?
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 i define murder as disrespectful killing. i define respectful killing as all killing that is for the sake of mortality: that being food, shelter, defense, and justice. the biblical text says the children were not to be killed. which passages are you referring to which says the children were also killed but not the virgins? keep in mind again you need to remember english is not the same as hebrew.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Are you seriously implying that the children weren't virgins? By proxy, the murdered babies ALSO have to be non-virgins.
Am I missing something here? What about pregnant woman, the fetus are definitely virgins.
Also where is the justice in murdering children...I missed that class of ethics? Under what possible circumstances could the murder of children and the genocide...yes, genocide of a people be justified when the army doing the killing has God on its side?
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 not all children are virgins. the bible regards children as 5 year olds to 20 year olds. pregnant women are guilty for their children's deaths inside them. there is no justice in murder ever. no as selfdefense, children sometimes must be killed or else it is a descration of essence.
and yes not all genocide is wrong either. nor sir, you yourself approve of some genocide, some killing of innocents, and some slavery too. so i find it hypocritical of you.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 correct no and nor to now
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 When did I ever say that? Also that contradicts my definition of evil:
Killing is self-defense is acceptable because the intention is to protect yourself, not to dominate, murder, etc. the attacker.
Slavery is ALWAYS evil because it intent is to dominate and abuse.
Genocide is ALWAYS evil because it's mass murder, with children and babies being killed too.
Where did you draw that conclusion about me? Where did I EVER approve this stuff?
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 Unless you are unique among every person i have met, it was a safe assumption to make. for this specfici accusation of mine, please let us continue this portion of the discussion in the email i sent you. it is there where i will explain why you are a supporter of genocide sometimes and slavery (probably).
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Okay, I'll see you soon.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 if the soldiers were righteous, they wouldn't violate them. if you look at the text, it says they were given a month to mourn. if it was about sexual slavery they wouldn't be given a month to mourn
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 A month to get over the slaughter of their family, the destruction of their homes, and the deaths of nearly everyone and everything they ever knew and loved...
I'm sorry, but no...that's like a murderer killing an entire family, but then making a youtube apology video saying how tragic and sad it was...sorry that doesn't get him off the hook.
Same thing here...a month to mourn the death of their friends and families and slavery... how nice...wait, NO IT ISN'T!
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 they deserved to die. you have a month to get over your loved ones that deserved to die. and if you publicly state that they didn't deserve death then you would deserve death too.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 the Bible says it is a sin to kidnap humans and enslave them. what did americans do to the africans? they captured them and then enslaved them. so that was wrong according to the biblical teaching.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Actually, back then the bible was actually used to justify slavery, used to make it sound okay.
Also if it's wrong according to biblical teaching, why is it a-okay when Christian soldiers do it? Why are there rules for HOW to do it if it's SO wrong?
Carlsonap16, buddy don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
You can't have it both ways...if it's wrong then these passages are wrong and immoral and if they aren't wrong and immoral God MUST be okay with sexual slavery.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 i know, but they ignored what the bible taught. i am not a christian at least not what you know christianity to be. i am an essene jew; i do not affiliate with any christian group.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Then why didn't God say "Hey, what are you doing? This is just, this isn't a righteous war, thou art not honoring my bible or me!"
If this is bad...why is it written RIGHT THERE on the pages in black ink? They are never punished for "ignoring what the bible taught" they are never rebuked by God, they never face the consequences of their actions.
If any army today did these things it would be splashed all over the news and condemned by virtually everyone and they would be arrested
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Huh, what....? These guys MURDERED EVERY MAN, NON-VIRGIN WOMAN, CHILDREN AND BABIES!!!
The only ones they spared were the VIRGIN GIRLS...What do you THINK they intend to do with them?
Make them neighbors? Write them a "sorry, I slaughtered your entire family and took over your country" card? You can't be that innocent
I guess black people's rights weren't being violated...So I guess Abraham Lincoin, Fredrick Douglas and many African slaves just "misunderstood" their situation?
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 sexual slavery is always wrong and is not taught as a good ting by the Bible.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 On the contrary carlonap16, God has no problem with it and in fact according to him its fine! Exodus 21: 5-6 NIV...the husband and father can go free, but the wife and daughter has still ENSLAVED, any loving man couldn't bring him to abandon them and would then become a PERMANENT SLAVE
Exodus 21:7-11 NIV...Sexual slavery is OK! If it was wrong God would've said something right?
Judges 21:10-24...The only one they spare are the virgin girls...gee, I wonder why? Hint: rape
Cont.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 Exodus 21 has nothing to do with sexual slavery. when you buy a woman you have an obligation to give her a husband or to free her. yes i am fine with permanent slaves. when did i say i wasn't? no it wasn't for rape. its because all others deserved to die because of their sins, but the virgins did not commit sins worthy of destruction.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 What about the doctrine of original sin? Also why do virgins get a free pass, what is it about sex that instantly transforms them into people who deserve to die for their sins?
Also since murder is a sin...all those who kill in God's name are committing a sin and if you say they aren't, that means they are an EXCEPTION and if so "thou shalt not kill" CANNOT possibly be a commandment since commandments are supposed to be moral absolutes.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 the doctrine of original sin is 1 of the most blasphemous things the flse religion of christianity teaches.virgins & children get a free pass because they were not partners of those that deserve death.if u choose to be united (aka marrige) to a murderer & yet choose not 2 do anything about it,r u not supporting them in their murder by remaining married to them?thus u deserve 2b killed 4 ur spouses capital crimes.u shall not kill in context means dont kill without justification.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 0___o... carlsonap...you don't realize it but you have created a catch-22.
If ALL virgins and children are innocent...then when they can only marry other innocents...since EVERYBODY starts innocent.
Also if the parents are sinful, since the children and virgins are their offspring have a parent-child bond...they by your definition CAN'T start innocent.
You've created a paradox...where either everyone IS or IS NOT innocent.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 all virgins and children are innocent of marriage sins, not of all sins. not all married individuals are guilty of marriage sins, but if a nation deserves to be destroyed, it only deserves to be destroyed because all the adult men and all the married couples were involved in a heinous crime.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 But, Carlsonap...if all non-virgins are sinful and deserving of death...then how can you POSSIBLY say "not all married individuals are guilty of marriage sins."
Also, if virgins and children have committed sins...then they aren't innocent.
I see you trapping yourself in a paradox...the idea of virgins and children not being innocent of sin and yet not being worthy of death are mutually exclusive concept.
Sins are sins because they get you sent to hell, because God punishes sin.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 ".if all non-virgins are sinful and deserving of death" they're not. we are dealing with various nations which all of their nonvirgins and nonchildren were deserving of death. God doesn't punish sin in my view; nature punishes sin. God is just a scribe.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Not according to Zechariah 14, Noah's flood, kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden, creating Hell, punishing both sinners and demons and the devil.
God also murders people in:
2 Kings 2:23-24
1 Samuel 6:19-20
1 Kings 20:35-36
and 2 Samuel 6:3-7.
Nope, God's killed plenty and judged and punished plenty...nature has nothing to do with it, God isn't passive when it comes to punishing sin with death.
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 Where does it say God creates hell? the punishments you cite of God are not referring to eternal punishment. He doesn't punish anyone in hell. If God has wronged anyone, He will be punished with hell as well. he is not exempt.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 - There indeed are many harsh judgments from God, most people prefer to ignore them and make a false impression of him in their minds of a Anything Goes Sugar Daddy. Would be easier, but that's not how it is.
sparkshot 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 All yes it is about sexual slavery.
Exodus 21:7-8: "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself."
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 : If a man rapes a woman, she has to marry him! Marrying your own RAPIST!!!
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 and Judges 5:30 are even more direct about it.
God had no problem with sexual slavery... HE MADE RULES ON HOW TO DO IT!!!!
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 the Hebrew doesnt say rape.i dont base my interpretations of ancient Hebrew texts on pathetic translations like the ones made today.the ancients were much better at translations.all modern translators are a joke.regrding Exodus 21: that translatio also is false,& implies something that the hebrew doesn't.the true teaching that is spoken here is that the master selects a female slave for himself 2b his slave not his sex slve, but he must give her a husband, or he must free her.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 DON'T BE SO NAIVE!!!
Women in those times had virtually NO rights, NO liberties and if you read the text it says... "If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." If she's not a good lay...just ship her back! Not even exaggerating about that!
I have to say it a second time don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
You can't be that Naive...what do you think was going on? Really? Doesn't this AT LEAST look suspect?
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 a woman who was sold into slavery worked as a slave until she was given a husband. sex is only for procreation, so a woman has absolutely every right to not sin, and thus she must not allow sex when she is pregnant or menstruating or old. it is true that virgins and wives have less rights, but if you look at numbers it explicitly says widows have some rights married women and virgins don't. it is an exaggeration that women did not have any rights.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
@carlsonap16 Woman could be sold as slaves married to whomever their owners choose, they can't be freed. Once you were married, the husband basically owned you because you only had rights if you were a widow.
You keep showing your naivety, if what you're saying was true their would only be male slaves...the ONLY reason A MAN would get a FEMALE slave is sex.
They aren't as strong or endurable so they aren't be bought for farm work and males can cook and clean too...so what else could it be, sex
999theshadow999 3 weeks ago
@999theshadow999 no it has nothing to do with sex you are making an assumption. read proverbs 31 which describes how productive a woman can be with her hands and not her vagina.
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
I agree with most this, I noticed the same things in the scriptures ,the main thing i dont understand is when you said to NOT hate you would be violating your own rights, can you expound upon that abit please?
sparkshot 1 month ago
@sparkshot Certainly: I believe sin is to be understood solely as disrespecting minds. When you disrespect another's mind, it is actually disrespecting your own mind. Minds have the right to (or in other words, it is right to give them) what is right. So if you deprive yourself from what is right and proper and due, you are violating your own "rights". Thus, to not hate what is evil would be to wrong, or in other words, contrary to self right[nes]s.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 - I sorta get what your saying, but not totally. I did come to a conclusion a few years back similar to this; " When you disrespect another's mind, it is actually disrespecting your own mind", reason being, if I call someone a 'Prick' for instance, I'm saying in my mind that whole person is faulty, but in his mind in some way I'll be faulty so we are on equal ground, thus I just called myself a Prick! So now I might only say, "He's BEING a prick" (in a specific area) how's that?
sparkshot 1 month ago
@sparkshot if i understand it, prick is a vulgar term for penis, so i would say its always wrong to use it if you know what that means. that being said, insults are not always wrong. but if you insult something good, yes i agree with you, that's wrong. i think sin is simply contrariness to minds. being contrary to someone elses mind results in your mind being contrary to minds. but since its contrary to minds to be contrary to minds, you are being contary to yourself
carlsonap16 3 weeks ago
For that he has earned an intense dislike and disrepect from me but I don't hate him.
Onychus 1 month ago
@Onychus intense dislike is the same as hate.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
No, I did not know Hitler but I know he did horrible things and he promoted hateful ideals. From what I understand he was likeable and charasmatic man who could inspire people. I'm not saying I like him. I hate the things he did but never got to know him personally so I don't hate him. I was never oppressed by him. the worst he did to me personally was that my grandfather had to go to Europe to kill people and avoid being killed by those same people because of him.
Onychus 1 month ago
Firstly, if I may paraphrase Leonard Church, In order to hate some one you have to get to know them personally. You shouldn't hate someone just because someone tells you so. That includes god. If I'm told I have to hate someone, I'm going to need a REALLY good reason. Still I'll only dislike that person very much. I may hate their ideals but not the person. Secondly, wasn't killing all those people violating their right to life?
Onychus 1 month ago
@Onychus I don't anyone because i'm told to. I hate people because nature obligates me to. Morally, I do not regard God as the maker of morality and the rules. God is merely a presenter of the rules that He can't change. I would ask you if you hate Hitler. You evidently do know Hitler personally, but i would say its likely you hate him because of what you know about who he was.
carlsonap16 1 month ago
@carlsonap16 do not* know Hitler
carlsonap16 1 month ago