Noam Chomsky-Discussion with Libertarian Socialists (2/4)

[UtopiaMinor666]

It seems like anyone who finds the title Libertarian Socialist as a misnomer, either doesnt know what a libertarian is, or they understand socialism to be what most American's have heard it to be, but clearly, not what it is.

[lqacwaz1]

the audio is poor - it took me a *lot* of effort to understand ...

[dontmakeuspay]

you guys should look at the petition at dontmakeuspay ! dont let the consumers foot the bill!

[LibertarianViewer]

libertarian socialism?

What's next? Nazi Judaism?

[KillWoundedEatDead]

hahah was that a joke or are you really that stupid? what wrong with small government where the workers control the companies democratically? that means no poor people (unless you refuse to work hard and are fired by your peers) and no supoer rich elite fascists who control everyone else.

[LibertarianViewer]

Uh...

I AM a libertarian. I was pointing out that the two words "libertarian" and "socialism", are opposites.

[KillWoundedEatDead]

libertarian and socialism are not opposites. big government that gives out handouts is not socialism and has nothing to do with socialism. socialism is when the workers control the means of production. libertarian and capitalism are opposites but the meaning of the word libertarian is America is different than tyhe original meaning. libertarian is the opposite of authoritarian and socialism is the opposite of capitalism.

[UcanbeGOD]

So the actions of government from the bailouts to public education and so on are simply fascist? I am still in the process of learning this shit so.....

[PlasticJesus341]

only by American definitions, do some research man if your really a libertarian

[DANxCHORIN]

Fuck off, you are not a Libertarian. The word "Libertarian" was invented to describe anti-Authoritarian Socialists. You are just a supporter of tyrannical 'free'-market Capitalism.

[succeedfromunion]

DANxCHORIN:

you should be trying to win people like this over to true libertarian ideals. Your not helping by trying to alienate this guy.

[DANxCHORIN]

Well he didn't exactly post with the kind of open-minded attitude that meant he could be won over...

[fomastephanovitch]

That's not correct surely.

Libertarianism has become a generic term in the second half of the twentieth century. I think if you were asked to describe a libertarian he'd be carrying a gun and a copy of Atlas Shrugged while picking up empty beer cans in New Hampshire.

[DANxCHORIN]

The term 'libertarian' was coined by Joseph Déjacque, a French anarchist communist. If the term conveys that particular image to you, it is because the meaning of the term has been hi-jacked by right wingers.

[fomastephanovitch]

That does not draw away from the fact that these right wing libertarians are probably just a different type of progressive (progressive being those who rejects all the nonsensical notions of kings, churches and patriotism as universal values). I would consider a libertarian to be a person who does not believe in coercion. What are now called liberals are those who believe in manipulating the economic functions of the state; they sound nothing like Déjacque or Proudhon and a lot like Fourier.

[JimmyeDallas]

Rand wrote about Objectivism (Selfish Capitalism), which couldn't contrast Libertarian belief more than any other ideology.

[elsargente]

LIBERTARIAN: one who believes in freedom of action and thought; one who believes in free will.

SOCIALISM: a social system in which the producers possess both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods.

LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM: a social system which believes in freedom of action and thought and free will, in which the producers possess both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods.

[altaris2011]

@elsargente if an individual decided to grow and sell tomatoes, becoming a producer, would him or her automatically obtain political power? If producers possess political power, meaning the geographical monopoly on the legitimate use of force, wouldn't this undermine the concept of freedom. I guess that depends on what you mean by political power. Also, I am unconvinced that a libertarian socialist system can be efficient in the distribution of goods given that there is no free market.

[elsargente]

@altaris2011

he would gain some economic power (the power to sell tomatoes), not political power. but the economic power he would gain from this would not have any negative effect on anyone unless he was exploiting the fruits of someone elses labor.

[pinochet222]

The original meaning of the word "libertarian" was libertarian socialism, now you have to add socialism because the corporate interests simply hijacked the word in the US.

What's next, libertarian christian right? Oh wait, that has been already integrated! at least in the US ...

Today you've learned something new.

[acceptableviolence]

libertarianism (left) was around much longer than your stupid right wing nazi mary rothbard. Fuck off.

[phwaap]

"There's no such thing except in the real world."

[antar18]

fuck the idiot american people in except someone who says the reality like noam chomsky

[xxrev0ltxx]

not the american people but the american imperialist state! it feeds the american people the wrong information on purpose to keep them from knowing a better world is possible! masalaam.

[ImaginationBlue]

Noam is a really kind guy.

[JimmyFartpants]

Libertarain Socialism?

That has gotta be one of the biggest oxymorons I've ever heard.

[Peralon]

Why so? It's Socialism not Stalinism. That is, socialism in the elementary sense of sharing basic commodities, and libertarian in the tradition of classical liberalism -extending to modern industrial civilisation- (that is, individual freedom, minimal state intervention plus democratic organisation from below). Where's the oxymoron?

[dbonanno]

Too bad liberalism doesn't stand for any of these things anymore.

[RSFO]

We should fight to reclaim the words. I call myself a libertarian communist, just like Pëtr Kropotkin did in the 19th century way before the "Communist"/"Socialist" Soviet Union and way before the "Libertarian" Libertarian Party. Libertarian communism and libertarian socialism ought to be spelled in lower cases as we don't represent any cult or party. It's an idea, the very idea to resist any kind of oppression and tyranny.

[holidayschool]

Well Said!

And your username, assertion that Michael More is a Marxist and obvious lack of understanding of basic political theory does nothing but to support your veiw.

[4ourthofjuly]

have you noticed that anyone that is critical of privatization is called a socialist, and all socialists are called communists, and everyone called a communist is assumed a supporter of bolshevism (fascism)?

interesting way for the right to debate.

[Necrovore666]

Not only that, but no one calls the biggest socialists on earth, the supporters of corporate "rights," exactly what they are. Corporations and the moneyed elite receive vastly more government subsidy than all other segments of society. It's no surprise when the business classes and the government classes are identical.

[RSFO]

I almost agree with you, but it makes no sense to call bolshevism fascism. It was a different authoritarian system. Not that any of them are favourable.

[4ourthofjuly]

you could also call it "direct democracy", meaning no seperation between the people and the functioning of their governing body.

[KentAllard]

you're obviously a very ignorant person

[fla0303]

thanks you