Bberchin, as someone who I respect (despite our differences), I find it curious that you have devoted so much time and effort to discussing politics on a channel that was originally dedicated to your faith. Do you really believe that Jesus himself would stoop down to our level of throwing mud in political matters? I think Jesus would have been so disgusted with our political bickering, and I find it hard to believe that a man so peaceful and wise would advocate for any political ideology.
@Juggernauticali I think it's very important for Christians to be involved in government and the affairs of their communities. Christ was not a-political and scripture has much to say on our duties in politics. I agree with you about the fighting- I believe in truth, all truth, and that it will prevail if it is continued to be proclaimed and taught.
This accusation really confuses me. We trust the government with what is arguably the greatest military force in the world and we trust them with stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.(things I don't think we would trust solely to private companies), Yet somehow the government is less competent to handle anything else as well as private companies? That seems somewhat self-contradictory to me.
So, spending out of control with a 12 trillion dollar debt you think is ok; not to mention all of the government run programs which are bankrupt- like medicare, the US postal service and social security to name a few. It is un-American for the government to have its hands in business and healthcare is not a right guaranteed by the constitution.
To be fair, bberchin, the debt it mostly run up by wars of various sorts. It really took off during the Reagan years. But is this behavior somehow limited to government? Of course not. The private banks did the very same thing and needed to be bailed out recently. How was the fact that they were private better at handling that?
I'm certainly not saying government = good, but I am saying corporation = no better. And we can't vote owners of corporations out of office.
I agree that there are dirty corporations out there, but we must stick to our foundations. Government has no business running banks, car companies, or healthcare. If the government would promote free-market competition through proper legislation (written by congressmen and not special interests, of course), incentivise small business, and regulate to prevent monopolies, price gauging and other illegal business practices like they should corporate corruption would decrease along with inflation...
...and bailouts would not be "necessary". None of the bailouts/stimulus should have happened. Yes, things would have gotten really bad quickly, but our system is designed to recover with new companies emerging and a return to health with our liberty intact and our government under control. Our president and his cohorts have no confidence in the system our founding fathers built and are more interested in power and money.
I whole-heartedly agree about proper legislation. The main source of corruption in government is the money from corporation to make sure such legislation never gets through. But the government isn't nor has it ever planned to be "running banks, car companies, or healthcare". You are misinformed here. The public option, for instance (which is all but dead now) was in no way "government run healthcare".
Actually- the public option is alive and well hidden in medicare. Also, the public option (though a dreadful deep step into socialized healthcare) is not the only part of the 2000 page bill that creates the promising and near future of a government run healthcare system. The liberal agenda has as its goal a single-payer system. Many, including Obama himself have said this many times.
You are correct: as a liberal, I would certainly love a single-payer system. That does not change the fact, however, that the public option is not the same as government run healthcare. Even medicare is not government run healthcare. You don't have to like it, but you should get your facts straight.
My facts are correct and I never said the public option was government run healthcare. I said it was a "dreadful deep STEP into socialized healthcare," The public option itself IS a government run health insurance plan which is a part of a much larger deficit burdening pig which will cast us quicker and deeper into socialism. If you like the government running such things then perhaps you should live in Canada. America does not need anymore big government spending.
You'll forgive my equating "step into" as meaning it was. It seems what you meant was more correctly "step toward". I would have understood that better. Every program has a cost, this program would be no different, though you seem to want to make it look that way. It is simply a matter of where do we want to spend the money we have. It only makes a deficit if we don't take that spending from another place or don't raise enough revenue to cover it. Why present it in such ridiculous terms?
Speaking of ridiculous, a government contracted health insurance option certain neither is, nor is it a step toward socialism. It seems like you don't know what socialism is. Finally, Canada? That third world hell-hole? Oh wait, it isn't a third world hell-hole after all. How can that be? And no thank you, I enjoy being an American. Even a single-payer health system is no where near "un-American". The words you use seem to be mere scare tactics.
Scare tactics? Have you read the constitution? Have you read our history? Have you studied about our system of government at all? Also, have you looked at the facts about other single-payer systems in other countries? They're terrible. You've been watching too much one-sided news my friend. If I don't know what socialism is then please enlighten me- make sure you do your best to make it not sound like what is happening in our country right now and our President's plans.
Hey Brett, I think our discussion here is getting a little to big for the tiny comment boxes. I'm going to go ahead and shoot you a PM so we can continue there. You can even quote me in videos if this subject so motivates you.
@bberchin "Promote the general welfare." Its in there. And if you'd actually do some research into the subject independent of any news channel, its clear that universal healthcare does work and is more cost effective. As it stands now, we spend 17% percent of our GDP on health care, more than any other nation, and yet there are millions who are uninsured, millions more who don't have enough insurance.
The post office is bankrupt. Did you know that? Medicare is bankrupt. Did you know that? Healthcare is not a right guaranteed by the constitution. Did you know that? Our military is quite strong and technologically advanced, but that is not thanks to the government. It's more like in spite of- I suppose sending 30,000 troops to Afghanistan when the General asked for minimum 60,00 to get the job done is smart and efficient? Our government is corrupt- if you don't see that you are blind.
Our government certainly has its corrupt parts... the fact that corporations can spend more money than the entire government does on medicare and medicaid in order to "lobby for their own best interest"... aka, buy legislation to give them unfair advantages...
Seriously, what kind of government would agree to not negotiate for lower prescription costs? Oh wait, one that's working fro the greed of corporations.. that's which.
Hey, thanks Zed. Merry Christmas to you too. I hope, though, that the common ground we enjoy doesn't impede the need for respectful challenge and correction. in other words, common ground is not the goal, but rather the foundation for respectful and meaningful dialogue which leads to right change. Anyway, it's great to hear from you.
This is just the point that is being made- America is not perfect- yes, there has been minority oppression and racism and there still is. That will never change as long as people live in America. However, based on the principles of America, all minorities and races have a much better chance at making a life for themselves than anywhere else in the world. Also, America's founding principles and everything it stands for IS good, but people have messed it up.
I'm still a little fuzzy about what makes a country "good". We can talk about America's founding principles because America was founded relatively recently. What are Denmarks founding principles? Is it also good? What are England's founding principles? Is it good? What is an example of a "bad" country (as opposed to a good country that is simply going through a bad patch, like our treatment of native Americans)?
I certainly agree that our government has become very corrupt. As an unbeliever I also like this nine principals even number 2. The only thing I would add is "with humility" at the end of number two.. I find that value to be very lacking in many of the both religious and non religious.
"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian religion."
Treaty of Tripoli: 1797
It doesn't get much more clear than this that the US is NOT a Christian nation.
bagpipeplayer 6 months ago
how can you have all those books and be christian? i don't get it. must be all bibles..
nonglotter 10 months ago
Bberchin, as someone who I respect (despite our differences), I find it curious that you have devoted so much time and effort to discussing politics on a channel that was originally dedicated to your faith. Do you really believe that Jesus himself would stoop down to our level of throwing mud in political matters? I think Jesus would have been so disgusted with our political bickering, and I find it hard to believe that a man so peaceful and wise would advocate for any political ideology.
Juggernauticali 1 year ago
@Juggernauticali I think it's very important for Christians to be involved in government and the affairs of their communities. Christ was not a-political and scripture has much to say on our duties in politics. I agree with you about the fighting- I believe in truth, all truth, and that it will prevail if it is continued to be proclaimed and taught.
bberchin 1 year ago
You know... if we had a national healthcare program, you wouldn't get raped by health insurance companies....
puellanivis 2 years ago
You're right- we'd get raped by the government. Do you really think the government would be better at it considering their track record?
bberchin 2 years ago
This accusation really confuses me. We trust the government with what is arguably the greatest military force in the world and we trust them with stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.(things I don't think we would trust solely to private companies), Yet somehow the government is less competent to handle anything else as well as private companies? That seems somewhat self-contradictory to me.
Theophage 2 years ago
So, spending out of control with a 12 trillion dollar debt you think is ok; not to mention all of the government run programs which are bankrupt- like medicare, the US postal service and social security to name a few. It is un-American for the government to have its hands in business and healthcare is not a right guaranteed by the constitution.
bberchin 2 years ago
To be fair, bberchin, the debt it mostly run up by wars of various sorts. It really took off during the Reagan years. But is this behavior somehow limited to government? Of course not. The private banks did the very same thing and needed to be bailed out recently. How was the fact that they were private better at handling that?
I'm certainly not saying government = good, but I am saying corporation = no better. And we can't vote owners of corporations out of office.
Theophage 2 years ago
I agree that there are dirty corporations out there, but we must stick to our foundations. Government has no business running banks, car companies, or healthcare. If the government would promote free-market competition through proper legislation (written by congressmen and not special interests, of course), incentivise small business, and regulate to prevent monopolies, price gauging and other illegal business practices like they should corporate corruption would decrease along with inflation...
bberchin 2 years ago
...and bailouts would not be "necessary". None of the bailouts/stimulus should have happened. Yes, things would have gotten really bad quickly, but our system is designed to recover with new companies emerging and a return to health with our liberty intact and our government under control. Our president and his cohorts have no confidence in the system our founding fathers built and are more interested in power and money.
bberchin 2 years ago
I whole-heartedly agree about proper legislation. The main source of corruption in government is the money from corporation to make sure such legislation never gets through. But the government isn't nor has it ever planned to be "running banks, car companies, or healthcare". You are misinformed here. The public option, for instance (which is all but dead now) was in no way "government run healthcare".
Theophage 2 years ago
Actually- the public option is alive and well hidden in medicare. Also, the public option (though a dreadful deep step into socialized healthcare) is not the only part of the 2000 page bill that creates the promising and near future of a government run healthcare system. The liberal agenda has as its goal a single-payer system. Many, including Obama himself have said this many times.
bberchin 2 years ago
You are correct: as a liberal, I would certainly love a single-payer system. That does not change the fact, however, that the public option is not the same as government run healthcare. Even medicare is not government run healthcare. You don't have to like it, but you should get your facts straight.
Theophage 2 years ago
My facts are correct and I never said the public option was government run healthcare. I said it was a "dreadful deep STEP into socialized healthcare," The public option itself IS a government run health insurance plan which is a part of a much larger deficit burdening pig which will cast us quicker and deeper into socialism. If you like the government running such things then perhaps you should live in Canada. America does not need anymore big government spending.
bberchin 2 years ago
You'll forgive my equating "step into" as meaning it was. It seems what you meant was more correctly "step toward". I would have understood that better. Every program has a cost, this program would be no different, though you seem to want to make it look that way. It is simply a matter of where do we want to spend the money we have. It only makes a deficit if we don't take that spending from another place or don't raise enough revenue to cover it. Why present it in such ridiculous terms?
Theophage 2 years ago
Speaking of ridiculous, a government contracted health insurance option certain neither is, nor is it a step toward socialism. It seems like you don't know what socialism is. Finally, Canada? That third world hell-hole? Oh wait, it isn't a third world hell-hole after all. How can that be? And no thank you, I enjoy being an American. Even a single-payer health system is no where near "un-American". The words you use seem to be mere scare tactics.
Theophage 2 years ago
Scare tactics? Have you read the constitution? Have you read our history? Have you studied about our system of government at all? Also, have you looked at the facts about other single-payer systems in other countries? They're terrible. You've been watching too much one-sided news my friend. If I don't know what socialism is then please enlighten me- make sure you do your best to make it not sound like what is happening in our country right now and our President's plans.
bberchin 2 years ago
Hey Brett, I think our discussion here is getting a little to big for the tiny comment boxes. I'm going to go ahead and shoot you a PM so we can continue there. You can even quote me in videos if this subject so motivates you.
Theophage 2 years ago
@bberchin "Promote the general welfare." Its in there. And if you'd actually do some research into the subject independent of any news channel, its clear that universal healthcare does work and is more cost effective. As it stands now, we spend 17% percent of our GDP on health care, more than any other nation, and yet there are millions who are uninsured, millions more who don't have enough insurance.
bagpipeplayer 6 months ago
"regulate to prevent monopolies"?????
THAT'S NOT FREE MARKET ECONOMY!
puellanivis 2 years ago
"their track record"... like 99% of mail delivered correctly and on time?
As another said, we trust them with the defense of our country, and with waging war.
I mean, this "government" that you seem to distrust did manage to amass the most technological army in the world.
"But all of this was done by contract for the gov" ... yeah, and so would healthcare.
puellanivis 2 years ago
The post office is bankrupt. Did you know that? Medicare is bankrupt. Did you know that? Healthcare is not a right guaranteed by the constitution. Did you know that? Our military is quite strong and technologically advanced, but that is not thanks to the government. It's more like in spite of- I suppose sending 30,000 troops to Afghanistan when the General asked for minimum 60,00 to get the job done is smart and efficient? Our government is corrupt- if you don't see that you are blind.
bberchin 2 years ago
Our government certainly has its corrupt parts... the fact that corporations can spend more money than the entire government does on medicare and medicaid in order to "lobby for their own best interest"... aka, buy legislation to give them unfair advantages...
Seriously, what kind of government would agree to not negotiate for lower prescription costs? Oh wait, one that's working fro the greed of corporations.. that's which.
puellanivis 2 years ago
As an atheist/anti-theist it's nice to see you back bberchin.
You are proof that opposed philosophy can come together and find a common ground.
Big up respect to you and a Merry Christmas my friend.
Zed1967 2 years ago
Hey, thanks Zed. Merry Christmas to you too. I hope, though, that the common ground we enjoy doesn't impede the need for respectful challenge and correction. in other words, common ground is not the goal, but rather the foundation for respectful and meaningful dialogue which leads to right change. Anyway, it's great to hear from you.
bberchin 2 years ago
"America is good."
If you're a white male, yes. You can't tell me America has been good to minorities, *especially* blacks and Native Americans.
Juggernauticali 2 years ago
This is just the point that is being made- America is not perfect- yes, there has been minority oppression and racism and there still is. That will never change as long as people live in America. However, based on the principles of America, all minorities and races have a much better chance at making a life for themselves than anywhere else in the world. Also, America's founding principles and everything it stands for IS good, but people have messed it up.
bberchin 2 years ago
I'm still a little fuzzy about what makes a country "good". We can talk about America's founding principles because America was founded relatively recently. What are Denmarks founding principles? Is it also good? What are England's founding principles? Is it good? What is an example of a "bad" country (as opposed to a good country that is simply going through a bad patch, like our treatment of native Americans)?
Theophage 2 years ago
I certainly agree that our government has become very corrupt. As an unbeliever I also like this nine principals even number 2. The only thing I would add is "with humility" at the end of number two.. I find that value to be very lacking in many of the both religious and non religious.
4McClain 2 years ago
Yes, perhaps you're right.
bberchin 2 years ago
My dad is self-employed. I feel for you. God's faithful.
GPLeague 2 years ago