Christianity is as original as a "hard-on" or an "orgasm" There is NOTHING original about christianity accept from total ARROGANCE and SELF-IMPORTANCE! Christians are by definition COUNTERFEIT and DELUSIONAL, just as the other religionists! Jesus is as important as Krishna, Shiva, Vishnu etc. His supposed importance is on a street-level. . .Bill Gates is MUCH MORE important to me than any of these supposed "gods" ;)
@armelix73 all the gods, and that includes that gods that are called "god of oceans" where usualy reveard as perfect and omnieverything jadadad, by their worshipers. so it does not suprise me that christians do the same.
It is allso not Uncommon to God to have servants similar to angels. Many Religions have lot lesser spiritual beings serving god. in greek pantheon zeus poseidon, and Hades all have servants who usualy represent sertant things like light and death and sun or fire and allso rank very much like angels. there is the one ark spirit who is represetive of the god among the spirits and works as a task master.
Catholic of Rome should acquaint himself with the Ugaritic Texts & earliest years of Judaism. He'd quickly find that Jews had adopted the Canaanite Pantheon, worshiping the same gods! Most embarrassing 4 those early Hebrews, they eventually decided to make the transition from polytheism to monotheism. They did this in secret and claimed that Judaism was always mono. Thanks to the Ugaritic Texts, we are now certain of their polytheistic origin.
This means only 1 thing 4 Christianity...game over!
@Cootabux funny aint it. christians like to say that their god is perfect, when their god is one of the most flawed god ever. he constantly over estimates his abilitys, and he even admits that he can die. greek gods cant die. yaweh is orginaly the god of the armies so it is no suprise that he is so sick in both new and old testament.
@Cootabux "He'd quickly find that Jews had adopted the Canaanite Pantheon, worshiping the same gods!"
The bible itself says that repeatedly. It's the central theme of the Deuteronomistic history (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings). Worshipping other gods was the main reason why YHWH allowed them to be enslaved by the Babylonians.
the christian religion is the most polytheist religion of the world ! try to explain it to them clearly, they will NEVER understand you ! whatever how intelligent they are !
Minor point here. When CatholicofRome said that "nobody worships those gods anymore", he clearly is unaware of the general Neopagan movement. And no, I'm not refering to Wicca here. Hellenismos, for example, inevitably gets a lot of flak from the Greek Orthodox Church.
I believe the most compelling story's are that of jesus and horus...if you study both people..their lives are almost identical down to the days they were celebrated...not to mention that he was also killed and raised from the dead, born of a virgin, and he technically is a lot older then jesus, but no one ever seems to remember poor old horus.
@MsSquarebearz i do. horus thou did some things better. he did not tell that "if you dont belive in me i will torture you for ever and ever". and that"jews deserve to die". monotheists like to allwasy say that"our god is perfect" while it is not. infact, you culd say that polytheistic gods are perfect and allpowerfull but bechose there are perfect evil and good dietys it whuld mean both can influence the world and thus clearing the proplem of evil. monotheism however cant solve the proplem.
The whole "God is flawless" claim from Christians... If He were flawless (or even perfect), he would need nothing; no animal sacrifices, no tests of faith from Abram or Job, no worship.
my favorite diety in mythology is amaterasu. she is not creator god but she is the strongest and she is the controler diety, my other favorite is her brother susanoo who is god of storms and sea. allso link in legend of zelda is much inspired by susanoo. just bechose i am atheits does not mean that i cant read mythology. only lie that religion makes is that it calims to be true.
@FarAwayTheBest There are many dying and rising gods, e.g., Adonis, Tammuz. Do a Google search for "dying and rising gods." You'll see that there were a whole bunch of them.
OK, many dying and rising gods, but how about ones that were crucified?
I can do a google search but most of these don't come from primary sources, they just comes from a website claiming there are parallels and roviding not much evidence, I recommend you watch KabanTheChristian channel on this, he makes an excellent point about the Jesus myth theory
@FarAwayTheBest I'm not sure what your point is here (assuming you even have one). If you've somehow managed to conclude that the argument in this video is that the Jesus story emerged from prior legends about dying and rising gods, then you have misunderstood the video and I strongly encourage you to watch it again and pay attention.
Jesus is unique in that he was crucified to die for our sins, in that sense, the God of Christianity is unique. No other gods have died on the cross for our sins but in the video it sounded like you thought the sons of Jupiter did, that's why I refered to Kabane, he busts every argument Jesus mythicist bring, including the parallels argument
And indeed, Christianity itself is unique, most countries in the world have a Christian majority and Christianity is the largest religion with over 2 billion people, it's a miracle Christianity has spread so far and wide. And Christian countries tend to be the most developed countries
I also don't know many religions that have so msny prophets, most of them have just one
@FarAwayTheBest "Jesus is unique in that he was crucified to die for our sins, in that sense, the God of Christianity is unique."
Having a sacrifice--human, animal, or something else--that is purported to stand as a substitute for the adherents of a religion and to cleanse them from their sins is among the most common religious themes going. A claim that Christianity is unique in this regard can only emerge from ignorance of the claims of other religions--including, but by no means...
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest ...limited to, Judaism--OR, if it's not ignorance, then just plain old ignoring the claims of other religions. Proxy sacrifices are among the most common things in religions.
"Christianity is the largest religion with over 2 billion people"
That says nothing about whether the Christian god is unique. Important to deal with what the video is actually about, not what you might prefer it to be about.
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest "it's a miracle Christianity has spread so far and wide."
lol Again, you have a lot to learn. Christianity enjoyed the patronage and protection of one of the most powerful and far-flung empires in history, i.e., the Roman Empire. Before that, Christianity was, at best, a regional religion within the Roman world. Roman power and patronage brought it to the world. This was no miracle.
"in the video it sounded like you thought the sons of Jupiter did"
"Proxy sacrifices are among the most common things in religions."
Ah, but did these sacrifices come from their own God, did their own God sacrifice himself?
"enjoyed the patronage and protection of one of the most powerful and far-flung empires in history"
Ireland wasn't part of the Roman Empire, neither were all the Slavs, South Korea, East Timor, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, much of the southern parts of Africa, Iceland, Oceania, Canada etc
Infact every country in the world has at least some Christians, this can't be explained merely by the Roman Empire
"Take it up with him"
Sadly he's dead, and he can't defend himself, that's why I'm defending him
He argued that Christians were blameless, and that the accusations against them were baseless rumors. In fact, these rumors had a sinister source... demons
According to Justin, Greek myths were inspired by the devil from the prophecies of the Hebrew prophets, ie these beliefs were older than Roman beliefs
Justin Martyr is doing the opposite: he is trying to convince the pagans that the parallels existed in the first place. The parallels were so weak that the pagans didn't recognise them. That's why Justin had to plead that "we propound nothing new or different" to the pagans
So, Justin had to explain away why the pagans didn't see the parallels. His answer: the devil was using prophecies from the Old Testament, but he got them wrong, he said in his first Apology
"And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it,
@FarAwayTheBest Justin at the time, nor did anyone else have the large volume of literature available to them. Most would have texts such as the Iliad, Aeneid, and the Odyssey memorized but not perfectly. Different cultures would use pagan motifs and combine it with their own.Rome was a huge melting pot. So I do not expect it to be exactly alike. But I do expect the same motifs. And if you took the time to read the literature you would know. But from the comments it appears that you have not.
@FarAwayTheBest "Ah, but did these sacrifices come from their own God, did their own God sacrifice himself?"
Yes, there are gods who sacrificed themselves. Time for you to make some effort to learn about these religions if you're going to keep talking about them.
"Ireland wasn't part of the Roman Empire...."
LOL! Now you're just posting stupid stuff, which means my time is being wasted.
I have a copy of Greek Mythology at home, I have read much of it and didn't find much similarities between it and the Bible, well, perhaps aside from the fact that there was a snake beginning in both stories. Dionysus does have some similarities but he's not quite a Jesus-like character, still many important qualities of Jesus are not showing in Dionysus, Dionysus was not crucified, didn't ascend to Heaven, and wasn't a divine judge
Why do you always have to stop our conversation when it starts progressing, what was so stupid about my comments, much of the countries I mentioned without a doubt did not belong to the Roman Empire
@FarAwayTheBest "Why do you always have to stop our conversation when it starts progressing...."
I've never stopped a conversation of ours & *this* exchange most certainly is *not* progressing. I have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you the history of Christianity & to correct your raft of mistaken claims--particularly when you just keep coming back with more ignorance and mistaken claims. So go do some studying on your own. Your time would be far better spent that way.
@FarAwayTheBest - "Give us the corpse hanging on the hook." Holy Erec-ki-gala answered the gala-tura and the kur-jara: "The corpse is that of your queen." They said to her: "Whether it is that of our king or that of our queen, give it to us." They were given the corpse hanging on the hook. One of them sprinkled on it the life-giving plant and the other the life-giving water. And thus Inana arose.
note the three day motif also in these. Description for the underworld come from Odyssey book 11 , The Aeneid book 6, and the Jewish texts of Enoch and the Apocalypse of Peter. As for KabanTheChristian he did not read the literature, only Christian apologists views of the literature. A big difference. If he put as much critical thinking into into proving the Resurrection as he did evolution, under his other Kaban account, he might change his mind.
Alcestis by Euripides: " I shall watch for Death, the black-robed Lord of the Dead, and I know I shall find him near the tomb, drinking the blood of the sacrifices. If can leap upon him from an ambush, seize him, grasp him in my arms, no power in the world shall tear his bruised sides from me until he has yielded up this woman. If I miss my prey, if he does not come near the bleeding sacrifice, I will go down to Kore and her lord in their sunless dwelling, and I will make my entreaty to them,"
@wayman29 in the same play we read Hercules making the statement: " You may not hear her voice until she is purified from her consecration to the Lower Gods, and until the third dawn has risen. Lead her in. And you, Admetus, show as ever a good man's welcome to your guests.Farewell! I go to fulfil the task set me by the King, the son of Sthenelus.
For the record, there are plenty of us who worship the Pagan gods. I would say, though, that the God of the bible is unique, but only in the sense that every god is unique. In his case, his greatest uniqueness lies in his insane belief that he is the only god.
@Naiant lol I like your point. In light of it, it's worth noting that the biblical god's belief that he is the only god is a belief that develops over time. Lots of passages in the Hebrew scriptures that indicate that he is one god among many--the biggest and badest of the divine lot (at least vis-a-vis the Israelites), but one among many nevertheless.
Show me intelligent and deep dialogs between those other gods and their subjects. Show me detailed dialogs, logical dialogs, prophecies, riddles, proverbs, symbolims, and amazing stories of these other gods that you speak of. The God of the bible said that the other gods don't speak, don't hear, don't know. They are as dead today as they were back then. Show me a book like the bible, don't talk garbage, show me.
@cmpresents Do your own homework. Read the Quran. Read other religions' holy books. It's not my job to spoon feed you. Besides, you don't really care what the other holy books say, do you? Whatever they say, you would still believe that *your* holy book is better than all the rest, isn't that correct?
@ProfMTH I have, you are the one criticizing christianity, you are the one that has to make your point and show that christianity is not unique. That's why I say when you find one like it, then you post it. You don't have to spoon feed me, you have to put your money where your mouth is, it's your video.
No-one worships the Greco-Roman gods because the Christian god is essentially the Jewish god Greco-Romanised. That's why preaching Jesus is little different from preaching the sons of Jupiter and why Christians can ignore most of the Jewish law.
Except circumcision. God must really hate sheathed male members.
There is hardly a religious concept not based on Christianity (Islam, Mormonism, Satanism, eg) which does not predate it.
As opposed to the western deity, a one-shot creator constantly frustrated in its attempt to control its own creation, the eastern deity eternally brings into being, maintains and destroys as essential to its very nature. The Hindu trinity is a personification of that process.
The former is other than its creation; the latter is creation itself.
Wow. It never occurred to me before that, after transubstantiation, you could legitimately *worship* the bread and wine itself, praise and thank it for its achievements as part of the godhead, and ask it for forgiveness of sins. Thanks for including that aside.
compared to amaterasu yahwe is brutal overlord while amaterasu never kills.... she just goes away and you die. i am atheist but i still like some religius stories. the stories are not bad them self but religion based around them are never good.
"The Christian God is really three gods. Oh, I know, they say 'three persons, one God,' but let's face it: that's just a bullshit way of saying three gods."
That's an over-simplification, but it made me lol.
"the Mahayanists formulated the theory of the 'three forms' of the buddha: his...cosmic form, his transcendent form...and his transformation form, or the body he assumed when he existed on earth as Gautama." "among the statuary...is a trinity of figures." -Japanese Culture by Paul Varley.
"Pure Land Buddhism was based on adoration of the transcendent buddha Amida, who an eternity earlier had vowed to save all beings, provided only that they placed their faith wholly in him. By simply reciting the nembutsu (an invocation in praise of Amida), an individual could ensure that upon death he would be transported to the blissful 'pure land' of Amida in the western realm of the universe."
- "Japanese Culture" by Paul Varley
Pure land art shows Amida with a halo descending on a cloud.
I haven't read all of the comments, so this may have been covered already, but a popular argument regarding dying and rising gods is that Jesus was the first, and therefore all the others are simply copies of Christianity (being the truth, of course). I know this wasn't the central idea of this vid, but can you respond to that, or point me to some sources that cover it?
that it represents a survival of a pre-Christian deity that was unattested for almost four hundred years. Not all Pagan religions are pre-Christian. I hope it increases my credibility a bit to say that I am myself a Pagan. I just don't like to see people messing around with my religion. Plus there's that whole truth thing. Keep up the good work, though; I enjory your videos very much.
One is Osiris. He can be said to have resurrected only in the loosest sense, since he does not return to life, but rather to death. That is, he goes from non-existence to being ruler of the Land of the Dead. The other is the figure in the upper left, of an Orphic figure. The problem with this one is that it is from the 4th cent. CE. That is, it is not pre-Christian, but post-Christian. It is far more likely that it represents Christian influence on a Pagan cult than (cont.)
All in all, I have great respect for your scholarship, ProfMTH. At one point in this video, however, you make a serious stumble. It's when you show the images of various Pagan deities, saying that they are pre-Christian dying and resurrecting gods. I can only identify two for certain (another might be Cybele, who is definitely not a dying deity), but they both have problems. (cont.)
You missed an opportunity to mention the epic of gilgamesh prof. Although i suppose what you've said in this video already is more than enough to make your point :)
Not to mention, Prof, that Elohim is sometimes referring to plural gods. Let us create man in our own image, after our own likeness" (Gen 1:26) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3.
He's just the only one who should be served.
Isn't the idea of the Trinity only found in later, not so reliable texts that scholars have?
@superwolf76 one thing that is hard to understand is the trinity superwolf. in the beginning was the word and the word was with us. thats Jesus. Jesus is the son but he is also God as flesh, as man. and the holy spirit is him as spirit. The Father. The sacrifice and flesh to show how meager someone can be but still do amazing things. and the spirit who dwells in all to help guide. its not a "plural" us its weird but its not plural its singular in the nature of what God is.
2 kings 3:18 God says he will deliver Moab to the Isrealite kings.
They proceed to kick ass, winning battle after battle. Untill....
2 Kings 3:27 In final desperation the king of the Moabites sacrefices his son to Chemosh, and the Isrealites just pick up and leave.
I have heard "The act so disgusted them they left" which is just funny seeing as how bloodthirsty they are otherwise. And "God got mad at them for something else and punished the Isrealites right then" wich makes god a liar.
Is the god of Christianity unique? For the most part, no. But, it always struck me as unique the way the trinity is depicted in the Nicene Creed (the son is begotten from the father.The Holy Spirit proceeds from the father, AND the son).
We might question the logic behind the trinity, but, I dont know any other trinities quite (The Hindu trimurty is different) like this one, do you agree?
I'm afraid I don't know enough about Hindu theology to offer an opinion as to whether there is a significant difference between their doctrinal formulations and Christian ones such as the Nicene Creed.
I think the difference in the Christian trinity and other differences different religions have in specific aspects of their dogma may stem from having to think hard as to how to get round a major problem: in this case, how can we get away with calling jesus and the Holy Spirit god, when we are only allowed to worship one? Add to this the many different factions and the in the end political choice by an emperor as to the right one, and you're bound to get something slightly wacky and original.
i agree, the christian trinity could be a clever rationalization created to avoid some obstacles,but, that doesn't take away its originality.
it is doubtful that constantine added anything to the dogma of the trinity, most likely he merely enforced the views of the the most powerful christian of the era: the bishop of rome.
I forgot to mention that turning the other cheek and other related passages are fairly original, at least other religions before Christianity did not apply it consistently.
Well, TheScotist, just keep in mind that the Bishop of Rome didn't even bother to go to the Council of Nicaea. Moreover, Nicaea didn't put Christian debate about the Trinity to rest. It wasn't until 381 C.E., when subscribing to the doctrine of the Trinity was legally mandated by the emperor, that things began to quiet down.
On a related note, I came across a book in the bookshop I work in written by christian theologians called "The Myth of Christian Uniqueness" in which they state that they have got fed up with this argument being touted in an almost jingoistic way to promote the superiority of Christianity, when other religions can have very valid things to say in the same fields as Christianity.
I was in a bookstore earlier today and I *think* I may have seen that book, but I was intently looking for a specific title so I didn't pay it any mind. Is it worthwhile, FSMUnicorn?
I only got a brief look: I was meant to be working after all ;)
From what I saw, it looked quite heavily based on fostering new relationships between faiths rather than really giving reasons why Christianity is not unique.
Of course christianity will have some things that are different from other religions, in the same sense that they will have things that make them unique in small ways. You could say that the differences between Hindu and Christian ideas of trinity makes Hinduism as unique in that respect.
Perhaps the only way that he (the Christian god) is unique is in his horribleness. Most other gods and goddesses at least do not pretend to be perfect and infallible, just powerful. Nobody was surprised when Zeus cheated on Hera, after all, because everyone knew that Zeus was a horny old bastard who couldn't resist anything that walked. :)
@BookwormDragon1 yeah. Zeus atleast had other gods to mess his plants. but yawehs failiure was just pure incompitence. yaweh allso is one of the most dishonest god ever. he one time says that he cant lie, in other he lies. so his claim that he cant lie was it self a lie. you cant trust this god.
A friend of mine maintains that the uniqueness of the Christian faith lies in the notion that Christianity is grace-based rather than works based. I replied that its not surprising how popular Christianity is - its adherents don't really have to do anything other than the occasional prayer for forgiveness and they're all set for the afterlife. If Christianity was a little more arduous - maybe if Christians took the whole "sell your possessions and give them to the poor" thing literally....
Indeed, Cdnrktsci. If Christians took even half the stuff that appears in their scriptures literally, e.g., the bit you noted about selling all possessions, leaving family, and the rest, the religion would die out in no time. That's one of the reasons Christians spend so much time refining their apologetic arguments to convince themselves that those troublesome passages in their scriptures don't actually mean what they say.
A very well presented & articulate argument. Great video.
I'd like to point out that the earliest recorded incident we have of the Flood myth is the Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh, pre-dating Abraham (who according to the Bible was from that area) by hundreds of years. Sargon of Akkad was supposed to have been found in a floating reed basket & adopted into the royal household nearly 1,000 years before Moses was even a glint in the milkman's eye.
The Greeks had three flood stories. The Bible only has the usual one. How boringly predictable of it.
The other problem here is that another argument commonly used by flood proponentists is that there must have been a flood because so many different cultures and religions around the world have one. Doesn't really work with the whole unique argument.
Yeah the whole talking snake, virgin birth, whirlwind appearances, wrestling with another dude, forskin hating, slavery loving, rape promoting, homophobic, cannot attack an army because they have chariots made with iron ass pony is so much more real than say apollo.......
i would recommend "the scapegoat" or "i see satan" by rene girard for a fair argument about the uniqueness of biblical narrative, and jesus as a deity
Wow. ProfMTH, you are the best Atheist any Christian could hope for! You managed to make a fool of yourself in front of any intelligent Christian in the world! Not only did you get Biblical facts wrong, and out of context, but you were also able to prove that you know little of any of the religions you criticize. Thank God for you, ProfMTH!
prof, to say that God is not in the bread and wine is not totaly correct. The eternal (God) is omnicient-Everywhere. God is in all things and is the very power that moves the atoms.
so God is in you and me and the bread and wine. love you
The one thing I see as unique about the christian god is the way you get a free pass into heaven. No hard work is involved, just say the words, and convince yourself to believe it... poof! get out of hell free card. No good works, or are required, you don't even have to be remotely decent. Oh it's encouraged to be sure, but not at all required. You can be the world's biggest asshole and still be a christian, you are just required to feel bad about it and believe that christ can fix it for you.
"No hard work is involved," ummm... clearly you have not read the Bible. in order to be a true Christian, you must devote everything that is in you to God. Plus, how can you expect that any human act could possibly make it up to the load of debt we owe God? what physical thing can we do to save ourselves from Hell? you should learn more about Christianity before you say anything else about it.
Before you say I know nothing about christianity realize that I was a christian for almost 20 years. Devoting their life to Christ is indeed what the bible says to do, however the vast majority of supposed christians do nothing of the kind. Your argument is pretty easy to refute. Deathbed conversion to christianity gets you into heaven? Guess what no work involved is precisely accurate in that case. Go ahead, give me the "no true Scottsman... I mean christian" BS...
There is a God (Spirit)But he never wrote or dictated anything as offensive as the bible.
Spirit is us all and is us. Spirit is everywhere in plants trees the Atom lWe must get in touch with Spirit by meditatiohn prayer or chanting. Jesus said make them one as we are one. they were already one with God but did not know it. Spiret can help us but we must conned with Spirit. Amen and I love you
Hey prof-you do know the dying and rising god thing has been disproved already(And also note that the "crucfifed dionysis" picture you displayed was a hoax)
I love to study all the ancient myths, and discover the patterns common to them all. Not only do myths reflect personality archetypes and our common prehistory, they reveal something of the nature of the 'real' God. We all are inbedded in the universal 'reality' transcending planetary experience. Thus, the similarity in 'gods' exists because they all reflect pieces of the 'proto-god,' an earthly 'echo' of the transcendent Being at the hypothetical 'center' of the Universe.
Another thoughtful presentation. However, TECHNICALLY, if all came from Noah and his stories of Eden, then various cultures would form varying myths about the same basic stories; i.e. the flood, angels coming down to marry women and creating nephillim (i.e. Hercules legend, etc.). So the more similarities to closer it links to Noah in my opinion. Some comparisons quite revealing, such as Lilith in Eden is accurate for Satan being a "woman."Per the Bible she was married to Christ at that time.
Fair enough but there are flood stories that predate the Noah story. The epic of gilgamesh comes to mind which predates it by about 3000 years or so. If anything the noah story is cobbled together from different epics and stories. Also look up Ziasudra (sp?) very similar story to the biblical flood.
In short, the biblical flood isn't new nor should it be considered as "hard evidence" for the diversity of man as we know it.
Deuteronomy 28:63 "And it shall come to pass, [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it" .......
Not exactly the same as what you said , is it?
I strongly agree with you in principle though.......and enjoyed your vid.
Usually, the newer the rewrite, the more sanitised the language sounds, the less violent god seems, and the more feasible the claims...Have you noticed that? ....You won't find any reference to the earth being flat or the universe being geocentric, for instance, I'll bet
Hi ProfMTH, I just encountered your videos on YouTube and I love what I've seen so far. I especially like this video as it deals with a topic that I find most interesting, namely how different religions influence each other. Although, I would have liked you to go into more detail, maybe in another video? You have scratched this as well in your video about the virgin Mary, and I'm sure there are tons of other examples like Pagan Eastern and Christmas customs, Mitras, Echnaton, Zoroaster, etc.
Thanks, Thalamay. There are indeed many examples, and one can't cover it all (or even most of it) in a short video. But as these sorts of things are relevant, I will certainly be discussing them in future videos.
Please Promth... Please read about the sumerian cuneiform texts. It explains everything from the beginning. In this video about God being sorry for making humans. It was Enlil in the Ancient Texts that was sorry and couldn't stand the creation of mankind. But It was Enki who created and it explains all the things that have been boggling peoples minds about religion.
i guess it depends on how you look at it ProfMTH, not sure if the college grad robe-wearin guy is you or if you're some professor at some school or what, but yea, what i find laughable is the circulation, or should i say "plague" suffered by youtube also known as the forged dionysus emblem, the 16 crucified saviors list and the Justin Martyr quote (taken laughably out of context) in an attempt to make people genuinely believe Christianity is proven wrong on those bases alone
Why not "this stuff"? Are you suggesting that Jesus *is* unique as a dying and rising god? What is the "context" of the Justin Martyr quotation that purportedly shows it's been misused here? Please be specific, Lauddyboi.
why not this stuff? well, partially because it wasnt even considered as a notion until the late 18th century and still isnt given merit in the academic world, your philosophical objections are valid but Subjective. is Jesus unique? yes. Martyr quote context: he was appealing (not confessing) to authorities to attempt to avoid the fierce persecution of the time by bending over backwards to come up with vague similarities between his Faith and that of pagans who weren't being slaughtered
i wasnt saying He was the only one to make the claim, i'm saying He was the only one to back the claim up, and as for all the alledged "similarities" they all lie (pardon the pun) in one of two categories, Category 1: not a similarity sufficient enough to conclude one copied off of the other. Category 2: not predating the possible influence of Christianity (and we may discuss these allegations one by one if you desire for me to be more specific)
It seems, Lauddyboi, that you've mistakenly concluded that my argument is that the Christian story was copied. I never made that claim in this video. The question was whether the Christian god was unique, not whether his story was copied. At the very least, the fact is that human beings across cultures have usually come up with remarkably similar stories about their god(s).
lol well it sure seemed as thought you were headed that way, all the elements of that claim was there, but anyway, i apologize for making a false assumption, "the fact is that human beings across cultures have usually come up with remarkable similar stories about their god(s)." so you conclude that ________ ???
i'm not sure as to exactly which stories are being compared, but may i question rather or not any of them is believed in the way Christianity is? and by that i'm elluding to the fact that it relates to an actual human being recorded not only in religious but in secular writings as well? is there nothing unique about that?
"...i'm elluding to the fact that it relates to an actual human being recorded not only in religious but in secular writings as well? Is there nothing unique about that?"
The notion that Christianity is compromised of beliefs of previous pagan myths, one must wonder why it is such a thing is Only taken seriously today in pop culture among the lay community, but for the sake of the laity it is indeed an issue that must be objectively dealt with.
Oooh! You ended with "The Gods Love Nubia"! I love "Aida". <3 [/squealing]
Ay...the Trinity. I could never wrap my head around that one. It's like a Zen koan or something. (Huh...that actually makes a little sense when you think about it. But only a little.)
"Oooh! You ended with "The Gods Love Nubia"! I love "Aida""
You know, it didn't get much critical aclaim, but I thought it was a very enjoyable show with some great musical moments -- the best of which is definitely "The Gods Love Nubia." Thanks, ByrdieFae.
Even if the Christian God *was* unique, that'd just mean that whoever thought of him first was just especially creative. It would have no bearing on the truthfullness of their teachings.
It is obvious to anyone who has studied ancient middle eastern history that the myths of the bible and Jesus are clearly rooted in the religious traditions of their neighbours - even extending to India.
Jesus was not the first resurrecting man/god. I've collected a number of vidclips on the origins of Christianity on my home page. Just click on my profile name to access them.
Theres even several stories around the time of jesus, with the same claims those guys just did not take off as the son of god! otherwise it could be Barry of Attinis, and not jesus of natherath.
In this context about the trinity I, too, recommend watching Imam Green, a former catholic, talk about Christianity in "The Coca Cola Muslims". It is in the last quarter of his speech that he talks about Roman gods and the paganization of Christendom...very interesting, because apparently he studied Roman and Greek mythology!
Well my player doesn't work quite well or I'd give the exact minute in which he says this stuff...but I think it's in the last quarter or last third...
if they say the only need faith is a proof for thier Trinity beliefs. Why the hell they bother saying these liquid, past, space, or whatever to proof thier beliefs?
Haha, a "True" Christians should never enter a comparative religion seminar. They'll be shocked!
One argument I hear is that Christianity is exclusive and monotheistic (via Judaism)therefore 'true'. Poor folks have not heard of Zoroastrianism (Ahura Mazda)
Btw, the Trimuthri (Hindu Trinity) is rarely invoked by Hindus. It has some basis in Smartism but not the majority Vaishnavites (Vishnu as head god). The hindu trinity has been emphasized by Western colonizers - to convert others, possibly
By the way, once again you've made an excellent video.
I like videos like these - I don't even *care* what false or true beliefs Christians have.
But it irks me to know end when they call other religious beliefs 'silly'. I mean I am an Atheist who tries to respect all beliefs (that are tolerant) - sometimes they do not have the same courtesy!
"Btw, the Trimuthri (Hindu Trinity) is rarely invoked by Hindus."
I see. Well, whether it's a prominent feature of Hinduism or not, my point was merely that the notion of trinity is not unique to Christianity. I could have used other examples, but the Hindu one came to mind immediately. Thanks, Yenmano.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I call upon the The Designers Awesome Design in His Creation, The Concept of 3 in 1
Kite: These are not my words, Many christians (including my mom) use these examples to prove the Trinity is logical. do you agree on this? and why? thanks
Christianity is as original as a "hard-on" or an "orgasm" There is NOTHING original about christianity accept from total ARROGANCE and SELF-IMPORTANCE! Christians are by definition COUNTERFEIT and DELUSIONAL, just as the other religionists! Jesus is as important as Krishna, Shiva, Vishnu etc. His supposed importance is on a street-level. . .Bill Gates is MUCH MORE important to me than any of these supposed "gods" ;)
armelix73 4 months ago
@armelix73 all the gods, and that includes that gods that are called "god of oceans" where usualy reveard as perfect and omnieverything jadadad, by their worshipers. so it does not suprise me that christians do the same.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
It is allso not Uncommon to God to have servants similar to angels. Many Religions have lot lesser spiritual beings serving god. in greek pantheon zeus poseidon, and Hades all have servants who usualy represent sertant things like light and death and sun or fire and allso rank very much like angels. there is the one ark spirit who is represetive of the god among the spirits and works as a task master.
gethsoftware 4 months ago
Catholic of Rome should acquaint himself with the Ugaritic Texts & earliest years of Judaism. He'd quickly find that Jews had adopted the Canaanite Pantheon, worshiping the same gods! Most embarrassing 4 those early Hebrews, they eventually decided to make the transition from polytheism to monotheism. They did this in secret and claimed that Judaism was always mono. Thanks to the Ugaritic Texts, we are now certain of their polytheistic origin.
This means only 1 thing 4 Christianity...game over!
Cootabux 8 months ago
@Cootabux interesting. Do you have some links or could you name some books about this? I would like read this stuff.
methanbreather 6 months ago
@methanbreather check out evid3nc3 history of god.
gethsoftware 4 months ago
@Cootabux funny aint it. christians like to say that their god is perfect, when their god is one of the most flawed god ever. he constantly over estimates his abilitys, and he even admits that he can die. greek gods cant die. yaweh is orginaly the god of the armies so it is no suprise that he is so sick in both new and old testament.
gethsoftware 5 months ago
@Cootabux "He'd quickly find that Jews had adopted the Canaanite Pantheon, worshiping the same gods!"
The bible itself says that repeatedly. It's the central theme of the Deuteronomistic history (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings). Worshipping other gods was the main reason why YHWH allowed them to be enslaved by the Babylonians.
KayBeeEee1983 2 months ago
I know someone who worships the Egyptian gods.
dodgermutt 10 months ago
I can't believe he would even try that one. There is NOTHING original in Christianity.
ShinyBachuru 10 months ago
the christian religion is the most polytheist religion of the world ! try to explain it to them clearly, they will NEVER understand you ! whatever how intelligent they are !
zecle 11 months ago
That was gay.
tadpoleposition 11 months ago
Minor point here. When CatholicofRome said that "nobody worships those gods anymore", he clearly is unaware of the general Neopagan movement. And no, I'm not refering to Wicca here. Hellenismos, for example, inevitably gets a lot of flak from the Greek Orthodox Church.
Vexille1983 1 year ago
I believe the most compelling story's are that of jesus and horus...if you study both people..their lives are almost identical down to the days they were celebrated...not to mention that he was also killed and raised from the dead, born of a virgin, and he technically is a lot older then jesus, but no one ever seems to remember poor old horus.
MsSquarebearz 1 year ago
@MsSquarebearz i do. horus thou did some things better. he did not tell that "if you dont belive in me i will torture you for ever and ever". and that"jews deserve to die". monotheists like to allwasy say that"our god is perfect" while it is not. infact, you culd say that polytheistic gods are perfect and allpowerfull but bechose there are perfect evil and good dietys it whuld mean both can influence the world and thus clearing the proplem of evil. monotheism however cant solve the proplem.
gethsoftware 5 months ago
The whole "God is flawless" claim from Christians... If He were flawless (or even perfect), he would need nothing; no animal sacrifices, no tests of faith from Abram or Job, no worship.
MajinMustang 1 year ago
my favorite diety in mythology is amaterasu. she is not creator god but she is the strongest and she is the controler diety, my other favorite is her brother susanoo who is god of storms and sea. allso link in legend of zelda is much inspired by susanoo. just bechose i am atheits does not mean that i cant read mythology. only lie that religion makes is that it calims to be true.
gooddarkjedi 1 year ago
Hey sorry to post all over this video comment section to a user below. Just had to give references and clear a few things up. :0)
wayman29 1 year ago
@wayman29 Good sir, it is *never* a problem when you post comments under one of my videos. :-)
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Profmth, can you name me one God that was crucified and was resurrected?
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest There are many dying and rising gods, e.g., Adonis, Tammuz. Do a Google search for "dying and rising gods." You'll see that there were a whole bunch of them.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
OK, many dying and rising gods, but how about ones that were crucified?
I can do a google search but most of these don't come from primary sources, they just comes from a website claiming there are parallels and roviding not much evidence, I recommend you watch KabanTheChristian channel on this, he makes an excellent point about the Jesus myth theory
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
Decius Mundus
wayman29 1 year ago
@wayman29
Decius Mundus? What's that? I can hardly find anything about him in google
Inana was hanging on a hook, not a cross. But nice parallel, do you have more Inana&Jesus parallels?
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest I'm not sure what your point is here (assuming you even have one). If you've somehow managed to conclude that the argument in this video is that the Jesus story emerged from prior legends about dying and rising gods, then you have misunderstood the video and I strongly encourage you to watch it again and pay attention.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
Jesus is unique in that he was crucified to die for our sins, in that sense, the God of Christianity is unique. No other gods have died on the cross for our sins but in the video it sounded like you thought the sons of Jupiter did, that's why I refered to Kabane, he busts every argument Jesus mythicist bring, including the parallels argument
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
And indeed, Christianity itself is unique, most countries in the world have a Christian majority and Christianity is the largest religion with over 2 billion people, it's a miracle Christianity has spread so far and wide. And Christian countries tend to be the most developed countries
I also don't know many religions that have so msny prophets, most of them have just one
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Jesus is unique in that he was crucified to die for our sins, in that sense, the God of Christianity is unique."
Having a sacrifice--human, animal, or something else--that is purported to stand as a substitute for the adherents of a religion and to cleanse them from their sins is among the most common religious themes going. A claim that Christianity is unique in this regard can only emerge from ignorance of the claims of other religions--including, but by no means...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest ...limited to, Judaism--OR, if it's not ignorance, then just plain old ignoring the claims of other religions. Proxy sacrifices are among the most common things in religions.
"Christianity is the largest religion with over 2 billion people"
That says nothing about whether the Christian god is unique. Important to deal with what the video is actually about, not what you might prefer it to be about.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest "it's a miracle Christianity has spread so far and wide."
lol Again, you have a lot to learn. Christianity enjoyed the patronage and protection of one of the most powerful and far-flung empires in history, i.e., the Roman Empire. Before that, Christianity was, at best, a regional religion within the Roman world. Roman power and patronage brought it to the world. This was no miracle.
"in the video it sounded like you thought the sons of Jupiter did"
I was...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest ...merely quoting Justin Martyr, one of Christianity's most celebrated early apologists. Take it up with him.
"Kabane...busts every argument Jesus mythicist bring"
This video isn't in support of the mythical Jesus claim, as I've already told you.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
"Proxy sacrifices are among the most common things in religions."
Ah, but did these sacrifices come from their own God, did their own God sacrifice himself?
"enjoyed the patronage and protection of one of the most powerful and far-flung empires in history"
Ireland wasn't part of the Roman Empire, neither were all the Slavs, South Korea, East Timor, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, much of the southern parts of Africa, Iceland, Oceania, Canada etc
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
yet they have a decent Christian community
Infact every country in the world has at least some Christians, this can't be explained merely by the Roman Empire
"Take it up with him"
Sadly he's dead, and he can't defend himself, that's why I'm defending him
He argued that Christians were blameless, and that the accusations against them were baseless rumors. In fact, these rumors had a sinister source... demons
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
According to Justin, Greek myths were inspired by the devil from the prophecies of the Hebrew prophets, ie these beliefs were older than Roman beliefs
Justin Martyr is doing the opposite: he is trying to convince the pagans that the parallels existed in the first place. The parallels were so weak that the pagans didn't recognise them. That's why Justin had to plead that "we propound nothing new or different" to the pagans
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
So, Justin had to explain away why the pagans didn't see the parallels. His answer: the devil was using prophecies from the Old Testament, but he got them wrong, he said in his first Apology
"And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it,
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
but imitated what was said of our Christ, like men who are in error, we will make plain"
None, of the so called sons of Jupiter were crucified, name me one that was crucified and resurrected
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest Justin at the time, nor did anyone else have the large volume of literature available to them. Most would have texts such as the Iliad, Aeneid, and the Odyssey memorized but not perfectly. Different cultures would use pagan motifs and combine it with their own.Rome was a huge melting pot. So I do not expect it to be exactly alike. But I do expect the same motifs. And if you took the time to read the literature you would know. But from the comments it appears that you have not.
wayman29 1 year ago
@wayman29
I don't get it, what's your point? And what literature are you talking about?
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest- My point exactly.
wayman29 1 year ago
@wayman29
Well, can you at least guide me if you're telling me that I'm clueless, I want to learn more, really
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Ah, but did these sacrifices come from their own God, did their own God sacrifice himself?"
Yes, there are gods who sacrificed themselves. Time for you to make some effort to learn about these religions if you're going to keep talking about them.
"Ireland wasn't part of the Roman Empire...."
LOL! Now you're just posting stupid stuff, which means my time is being wasted.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
Name me some of these gods
I have a copy of Greek Mythology at home, I have read much of it and didn't find much similarities between it and the Bible, well, perhaps aside from the fact that there was a snake beginning in both stories. Dionysus does have some similarities but he's not quite a Jesus-like character, still many important qualities of Jesus are not showing in Dionysus, Dionysus was not crucified, didn't ascend to Heaven, and wasn't a divine judge
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
"Name me some of these gods"
To quote wiki:
"In the Aztec "Legend of the Five Suns", all the gods sacrificed themselves so that mankind could live."
Yeah..... And that's just one example.....
tskasa1 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
"my time is being wasted. "
Why do you always have to stop our conversation when it starts progressing, what was so stupid about my comments, much of the countries I mentioned without a doubt did not belong to the Roman Empire
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Why do you always have to stop our conversation when it starts progressing...."
I've never stopped a conversation of ours & *this* exchange most certainly is *not* progressing. I have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you the history of Christianity & to correct your raft of mistaken claims--particularly when you just keep coming back with more ignorance and mistaken claims. So go do some studying on your own. Your time would be far better spent that way.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
OK, forget about what I said about the Roman Empire. What about what I said about Justin Martyr, will you admit you were wrong about him?
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest - "Give us the corpse hanging on the hook." Holy Erec-ki-gala answered the gala-tura and the kur-jara: "The corpse is that of your queen." They said to her: "Whether it is that of our king or that of our queen, give it to us." They were given the corpse hanging on the hook. One of them sprinkled on it the life-giving plant and the other the life-giving water. And thus Inana arose.
wayman29 1 year ago
@wayman29 Inana's descent to the nether world lines 273-281
wayman29 1 year ago
note the three day motif also in these. Description for the underworld come from Odyssey book 11 , The Aeneid book 6, and the Jewish texts of Enoch and the Apocalypse of Peter. As for KabanTheChristian he did not read the literature, only Christian apologists views of the literature. A big difference. If he put as much critical thinking into into proving the Resurrection as he did evolution, under his other Kaban account, he might change his mind.
wayman29 1 year ago
Alcestis by Euripides: " I shall watch for Death, the black-robed Lord of the Dead, and I know I shall find him near the tomb, drinking the blood of the sacrifices. If can leap upon him from an ambush, seize him, grasp him in my arms, no power in the world shall tear his bruised sides from me until he has yielded up this woman. If I miss my prey, if he does not come near the bleeding sacrifice, I will go down to Kore and her lord in their sunless dwelling, and I will make my entreaty to them,"
wayman29 1 year ago
@wayman29 in the same play we read Hercules making the statement: " You may not hear her voice until she is purified from her consecration to the Lower Gods, and until the third dawn has risen. Lead her in. And you, Admetus, show as ever a good man's welcome to your guests.Farewell! I go to fulfil the task set me by the King, the son of Sthenelus.
wayman29 1 year ago
For the record, there are plenty of us who worship the Pagan gods. I would say, though, that the God of the bible is unique, but only in the sense that every god is unique. In his case, his greatest uniqueness lies in his insane belief that he is the only god.
Naiant 1 year ago
@Naiant lol I like your point. In light of it, it's worth noting that the biblical god's belief that he is the only god is a belief that develops over time. Lots of passages in the Hebrew scriptures that indicate that he is one god among many--the biggest and badest of the divine lot (at least vis-a-vis the Israelites), but one among many nevertheless.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Show me intelligent and deep dialogs between those other gods and their subjects. Show me detailed dialogs, logical dialogs, prophecies, riddles, proverbs, symbolims, and amazing stories of these other gods that you speak of. The God of the bible said that the other gods don't speak, don't hear, don't know. They are as dead today as they were back then. Show me a book like the bible, don't talk garbage, show me.
cmpresents 1 year ago
@cmpresents Do your own homework. Read the Quran. Read other religions' holy books. It's not my job to spoon feed you. Besides, you don't really care what the other holy books say, do you? Whatever they say, you would still believe that *your* holy book is better than all the rest, isn't that correct?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH I have, you are the one criticizing christianity, you are the one that has to make your point and show that christianity is not unique. That's why I say when you find one like it, then you post it. You don't have to spoon feed me, you have to put your money where your mouth is, it's your video.
cmpresents 1 year ago
@cmpresents "...you are the one that has to make your point and show that christianity is not unique."
I did.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
No-one worships the Greco-Roman gods because the Christian god is essentially the Jewish god Greco-Romanised. That's why preaching Jesus is little different from preaching the sons of Jupiter and why Christians can ignore most of the Jewish law.
Except circumcision. God must really hate sheathed male members.
HasimirFenring1106 1 year ago
2.36 Oh shi- I have/had a cleft lip. I'd better not come near any of God's temples (does that include any churches?) or else God will be pissed.
Greyh0und 1 year ago
@Greyh0und i've never heard it applied to churches. No doubt even Christians found the rule repulsive.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Do you have evidence that the Hindu Trinity concept predated Christianity?
Which son of Jupiter was crucified?
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
There is hardly a religious concept not based on Christianity (Islam, Mormonism, Satanism, eg) which does not predate it.
As opposed to the western deity, a one-shot creator constantly frustrated in its attempt to control its own creation, the eastern deity eternally brings into being, maintains and destroys as essential to its very nature. The Hindu trinity is a personification of that process.
The former is other than its creation; the latter is creation itself.
EvenGodsSuffer 1 year ago
Even if it were unique: so what?
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 year ago
Wow. It never occurred to me before that, after transubstantiation, you could legitimately *worship* the bread and wine itself, praise and thank it for its achievements as part of the godhead, and ask it for forgiveness of sins. Thanks for including that aside.
HebaruSan 1 year ago
@HebaruSan You're welcome.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
compared to amaterasu yahwe is brutal overlord while amaterasu never kills.... she just goes away and you die. i am atheist but i still like some religius stories. the stories are not bad them self but religion based around them are never good.
gooddarkjedi 1 year ago
unique? No
billygundum 1 year ago
I've posted elsewhere on Youtube the case for the Trinity.
Christian Doctrine is Jesus is G-D, then the Creator sacrificed its divine Self, for the sake of us, the created.
Think not like men, try to think like G-D
Hkepfer 2 years ago
@Hkepfer think not like you
maddtappin 1 year ago
"The Christian God is really three gods. Oh, I know, they say 'three persons, one God,' but let's face it: that's just a bullshit way of saying three gods."
That's an over-simplification, but it made me lol.
"the Mahayanists formulated the theory of the 'three forms' of the buddha: his...cosmic form, his transcendent form...and his transformation form, or the body he assumed when he existed on earth as Gautama." "among the statuary...is a trinity of figures." -Japanese Culture by Paul Varley.
tifforo1 2 years ago
"Pure Land Buddhism was based on adoration of the transcendent buddha Amida, who an eternity earlier had vowed to save all beings, provided only that they placed their faith wholly in him. By simply reciting the nembutsu (an invocation in praise of Amida), an individual could ensure that upon death he would be transported to the blissful 'pure land' of Amida in the western realm of the universe."
- "Japanese Culture" by Paul Varley
Pure land art shows Amida with a halo descending on a cloud.
tifforo1 2 years ago
I haven't read all of the comments, so this may have been covered already, but a popular argument regarding dying and rising gods is that Jesus was the first, and therefore all the others are simply copies of Christianity (being the truth, of course). I know this wasn't the central idea of this vid, but can you respond to that, or point me to some sources that cover it?
BatDaddy 2 years ago
Thanks. Welcome to the channel.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
that it represents a survival of a pre-Christian deity that was unattested for almost four hundred years. Not all Pagan religions are pre-Christian. I hope it increases my credibility a bit to say that I am myself a Pagan. I just don't like to see people messing around with my religion. Plus there's that whole truth thing. Keep up the good work, though; I enjory your videos very much.
Naiant 2 years ago
I was referring to the general notion of a dying-and-rising god, Naiant. I'm not arguing for direct descent from pagan religions to Christianity.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
One is Osiris. He can be said to have resurrected only in the loosest sense, since he does not return to life, but rather to death. That is, he goes from non-existence to being ruler of the Land of the Dead. The other is the figure in the upper left, of an Orphic figure. The problem with this one is that it is from the 4th cent. CE. That is, it is not pre-Christian, but post-Christian. It is far more likely that it represents Christian influence on a Pagan cult than (cont.)
Naiant 2 years ago
All in all, I have great respect for your scholarship, ProfMTH. At one point in this video, however, you make a serious stumble. It's when you show the images of various Pagan deities, saying that they are pre-Christian dying and resurrecting gods. I can only identify two for certain (another might be Cybele, who is definitely not a dying deity), but they both have problems. (cont.)
Naiant 2 years ago
You missed an opportunity to mention the epic of gilgamesh prof. Although i suppose what you've said in this video already is more than enough to make your point :)
Moussyed 2 years ago
Not to mention, Prof, that Elohim is sometimes referring to plural gods. Let us create man in our own image, after our own likeness" (Gen 1:26) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3.
He's just the only one who should be served.
Isn't the idea of the Trinity only found in later, not so reliable texts that scholars have?
superwolf76 2 years ago
"Isn't the idea of the Trinity only found in later, not so reliable texts that scholars have?"
I'm not sure what you mean, Superwolf.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
@superwolf76 one thing that is hard to understand is the trinity superwolf. in the beginning was the word and the word was with us. thats Jesus. Jesus is the son but he is also God as flesh, as man. and the holy spirit is him as spirit. The Father. The sacrifice and flesh to show how meager someone can be but still do amazing things. and the spirit who dwells in all to help guide. its not a "plural" us its weird but its not plural its singular in the nature of what God is.
xMTCSx 1 year ago
2 kings 3:18 God says he will deliver Moab to the Isrealite kings.
They proceed to kick ass, winning battle after battle. Untill....
2 Kings 3:27 In final desperation the king of the Moabites sacrefices his son to Chemosh, and the Isrealites just pick up and leave.
I have heard "The act so disgusted them they left" which is just funny seeing as how bloodthirsty they are otherwise. And "God got mad at them for something else and punished the Isrealites right then" wich makes god a liar.
phookadude 2 years ago
Is the god of Christianity unique? For the most part, no. But, it always struck me as unique the way the trinity is depicted in the Nicene Creed (the son is begotten from the father.The Holy Spirit proceeds from the father, AND the son).
We might question the logic behind the trinity, but, I dont know any other trinities quite (The Hindu trimurty is different) like this one, do you agree?
Thescotist 2 years ago
I'm afraid I don't know enough about Hindu theology to offer an opinion as to whether there is a significant difference between their doctrinal formulations and Christian ones such as the Nicene Creed.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
I think the difference in the Christian trinity and other differences different religions have in specific aspects of their dogma may stem from having to think hard as to how to get round a major problem: in this case, how can we get away with calling jesus and the Holy Spirit god, when we are only allowed to worship one? Add to this the many different factions and the in the end political choice by an emperor as to the right one, and you're bound to get something slightly wacky and original.
FSMUnicorn 2 years ago
i agree, the christian trinity could be a clever rationalization created to avoid some obstacles,but, that doesn't take away its originality.
it is doubtful that constantine added anything to the dogma of the trinity, most likely he merely enforced the views of the the most powerful christian of the era: the bishop of rome.
I forgot to mention that turning the other cheek and other related passages are fairly original, at least other religions before Christianity did not apply it consistently.
Thescotist 2 years ago
Well, TheScotist, just keep in mind that the Bishop of Rome didn't even bother to go to the Council of Nicaea. Moreover, Nicaea didn't put Christian debate about the Trinity to rest. It wasn't until 381 C.E., when subscribing to the doctrine of the Trinity was legally mandated by the emperor, that things began to quiet down.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
On a related note, I came across a book in the bookshop I work in written by christian theologians called "The Myth of Christian Uniqueness" in which they state that they have got fed up with this argument being touted in an almost jingoistic way to promote the superiority of Christianity, when other religions can have very valid things to say in the same fields as Christianity.
FSMUnicorn 2 years ago
I was in a bookstore earlier today and I *think* I may have seen that book, but I was intently looking for a specific title so I didn't pay it any mind. Is it worthwhile, FSMUnicorn?
ProfMTH 2 years ago
I only got a brief look: I was meant to be working after all ;)
From what I saw, it looked quite heavily based on fostering new relationships between faiths rather than really giving reasons why Christianity is not unique.
FSMUnicorn 2 years ago
Of course christianity will have some things that are different from other religions, in the same sense that they will have things that make them unique in small ways. You could say that the differences between Hindu and Christian ideas of trinity makes Hinduism as unique in that respect.
FSMUnicorn 2 years ago
Perhaps the only way that he (the Christian god) is unique is in his horribleness. Most other gods and goddesses at least do not pretend to be perfect and infallible, just powerful. Nobody was surprised when Zeus cheated on Hera, after all, because everyone knew that Zeus was a horny old bastard who couldn't resist anything that walked. :)
BookwormDragon1 2 years ago
lol Excellent point, BookwormDragon.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
@BookwormDragon1 yeah. Zeus atleast had other gods to mess his plants. but yawehs failiure was just pure incompitence. yaweh allso is one of the most dishonest god ever. he one time says that he cant lie, in other he lies. so his claim that he cant lie was it self a lie. you cant trust this god.
gethsoftware 5 months ago
A friend of mine maintains that the uniqueness of the Christian faith lies in the notion that Christianity is grace-based rather than works based. I replied that its not surprising how popular Christianity is - its adherents don't really have to do anything other than the occasional prayer for forgiveness and they're all set for the afterlife. If Christianity was a little more arduous - maybe if Christians took the whole "sell your possessions and give them to the poor" thing literally....
cdnrktsci 3 years ago
Indeed, Cdnrktsci. If Christians took even half the stuff that appears in their scriptures literally, e.g., the bit you noted about selling all possessions, leaving family, and the rest, the religion would die out in no time. That's one of the reasons Christians spend so much time refining their apologetic arguments to convince themselves that those troublesome passages in their scriptures don't actually mean what they say.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
A very well presented & articulate argument. Great video.
I'd like to point out that the earliest recorded incident we have of the Flood myth is the Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh, pre-dating Abraham (who according to the Bible was from that area) by hundreds of years. Sargon of Akkad was supposed to have been found in a floating reed basket & adopted into the royal household nearly 1,000 years before Moses was even a glint in the milkman's eye.
Incredible coincidences, eh?
catalyst8 3 years ago
Indeed. Thanks, Catalyst8.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
The Greeks had three flood stories. The Bible only has the usual one. How boringly predictable of it.
The other problem here is that another argument commonly used by flood proponentists is that there must have been a flood because so many different cultures and religions around the world have one. Doesn't really work with the whole unique argument.
FSMUnicorn 2 years ago
Yeah the whole talking snake, virgin birth, whirlwind appearances, wrestling with another dude, forskin hating, slavery loving, rape promoting, homophobic, cannot attack an army because they have chariots made with iron ass pony is so much more real than say apollo.......
shade421 3 years ago
i would recommend "the scapegoat" or "i see satan" by rene girard for a fair argument about the uniqueness of biblical narrative, and jesus as a deity
VoiceOfModeration 3 years ago
Wow. ProfMTH, you are the best Atheist any Christian could hope for! You managed to make a fool of yourself in front of any intelligent Christian in the world! Not only did you get Biblical facts wrong, and out of context, but you were also able to prove that you know little of any of the religions you criticize. Thank God for you, ProfMTH!
310245535 3 years ago
"Not only did you get Biblical facts wrong...."
Please be specific about the "Biblical facts" that you believe I got "wrong."
"...out of context...."
Again, please be specific, 310245535. I'm not interested in generalities and baseless claims.
"...you were also able to prove that you know little of any of the religions you criticize."
Once again, you'll need to provide specifics, 310245535. Short of providing specifics, you're just blithering. Thanks.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Intelligent christain.....
now let's learn a new word boys and girls...oxymoron.
shade421 3 years ago
prof, to say that God is not in the bread and wine is not totaly correct. The eternal (God) is omnicient-Everywhere. God is in all things and is the very power that moves the atoms.
so God is in you and me and the bread and wine. love you
jam11432 3 years ago
The one thing I see as unique about the christian god is the way you get a free pass into heaven. No hard work is involved, just say the words, and convince yourself to believe it... poof! get out of hell free card. No good works, or are required, you don't even have to be remotely decent. Oh it's encouraged to be sure, but not at all required. You can be the world's biggest asshole and still be a christian, you are just required to feel bad about it and believe that christ can fix it for you.
cyxgun 3 years ago
"No hard work is involved," ummm... clearly you have not read the Bible. in order to be a true Christian, you must devote everything that is in you to God. Plus, how can you expect that any human act could possibly make it up to the load of debt we owe God? what physical thing can we do to save ourselves from Hell? you should learn more about Christianity before you say anything else about it.
310245535 3 years ago
Before you say I know nothing about christianity realize that I was a christian for almost 20 years. Devoting their life to Christ is indeed what the bible says to do, however the vast majority of supposed christians do nothing of the kind. Your argument is pretty easy to refute. Deathbed conversion to christianity gets you into heaven? Guess what no work involved is precisely accurate in that case. Go ahead, give me the "no true Scottsman... I mean christian" BS...
cyxgun 3 years ago
The jury's still out on that one.
rmctagg09 3 years ago
There is a God (Spirit)But he never wrote or dictated anything as offensive as the bible.
Spirit is us all and is us. Spirit is everywhere in plants trees the Atom lWe must get in touch with Spirit by meditatiohn prayer or chanting. Jesus said make them one as we are one. they were already one with God but did not know it. Spiret can help us but we must conned with Spirit. Amen and I love you
jam11432 3 years ago
what have you been putting in your jam?
how about living life for what it is, instead of dwelling on the miniscule chance that there could be a god. its not worth it.
peace
vestin1981 3 years ago
Pantheism is almost totaly useless as a belief... along with Deism.
Scrapheap71 3 years ago
Just out of curiosity my friend, would you happen to be Unitarian? I have no vindictive intentions, merely a curiosity, I assure you.
WesternEstatesHOA 3 years ago
Hey prof-you do know the dying and rising god thing has been disproved already(And also note that the "crucfifed dionysis" picture you displayed was a hoax)
facilisdescenus 3 years ago
"you do know the dying and rising god thing has been disproved"
No, I don't know that. Perhaps you might provide some details.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I love to study all the ancient myths, and discover the patterns common to them all. Not only do myths reflect personality archetypes and our common prehistory, they reveal something of the nature of the 'real' God. We all are inbedded in the universal 'reality' transcending planetary experience. Thus, the similarity in 'gods' exists because they all reflect pieces of the 'proto-god,' an earthly 'echo' of the transcendent Being at the hypothetical 'center' of the Universe.
quest4truth 3 years ago
what is the name of that song that plays at the intro?
ANDR3W1848 3 years ago
"I'm Not Like the Others."
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Another thoughtful presentation. However, TECHNICALLY, if all came from Noah and his stories of Eden, then various cultures would form varying myths about the same basic stories; i.e. the flood, angels coming down to marry women and creating nephillim (i.e. Hercules legend, etc.). So the more similarities to closer it links to Noah in my opinion. Some comparisons quite revealing, such as Lilith in Eden is accurate for Satan being a "woman."Per the Bible she was married to Christ at that time.
Larsguy1992 3 years ago
Fair enough but there are flood stories that predate the Noah story. The epic of gilgamesh comes to mind which predates it by about 3000 years or so. If anything the noah story is cobbled together from different epics and stories. Also look up Ziasudra (sp?) very similar story to the biblical flood.
In short, the biblical flood isn't new nor should it be considered as "hard evidence" for the diversity of man as we know it.
AngusBull2112 3 years ago
Man , your vids are well documented. You seem to have studied and researched whatever you are presenting.
Keep going. GREAT stuff.
Philos2006 3 years ago
Thanks, Philos.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Where is Deuteronomy 25:63? Chapter 25 ends at verse 19 in my RSV bible.
iluvhsw 3 years ago
28:63, Iluvhsw. 28. Not 25.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Deuteronomy 28:63 "And it shall come to pass, [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it" .......
Not exactly the same as what you said , is it?
I strongly agree with you in principle though.......and enjoyed your vid.
Tobytrim 3 years ago
"Not exactly the same as what you said , is it?"
Aside from the fact that you appear to be using a different translation, it's exactly the same. Thanks.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
On your version he sounded nastier ....which version was it?
Tobytrim 3 years ago
Really? "Bring you to nought" is just a wordy way of saying "destroy you." "Fuck you" might sound prettier in French, but it's still "Fuck you."
I usually use the New American Standard Version, so that's probably the one I used when I quoted that passage. I'd have to check to be 100% sure.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Usually, the newer the rewrite, the more sanitised the language sounds, the less violent god seems, and the more feasible the claims...Have you noticed that? ....You won't find any reference to the earth being flat or the universe being geocentric, for instance, I'll bet
Tobytrim 3 years ago
Hi ProfMTH, I just encountered your videos on YouTube and I love what I've seen so far. I especially like this video as it deals with a topic that I find most interesting, namely how different religions influence each other. Although, I would have liked you to go into more detail, maybe in another video? You have scratched this as well in your video about the virgin Mary, and I'm sure there are tons of other examples like Pagan Eastern and Christmas customs, Mitras, Echnaton, Zoroaster, etc.
thalamay 3 years ago
Thanks, Thalamay. There are indeed many examples, and one can't cover it all (or even most of it) in a short video. But as these sorts of things are relevant, I will certainly be discussing them in future videos.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
By the way... Love your video's...:)
enki35 3 years ago
Thanks. :-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Please Promth... Please read about the sumerian cuneiform texts. It explains everything from the beginning. In this video about God being sorry for making humans. It was Enlil in the Ancient Texts that was sorry and couldn't stand the creation of mankind. But It was Enki who created and it explains all the things that have been boggling peoples minds about religion.
enki35 3 years ago
that was laughable
lauddyboi 3 years ago
How so, Lauddyboi?
ProfMTH 3 years ago
i guess it depends on how you look at it ProfMTH, not sure if the college grad robe-wearin guy is you or if you're some professor at some school or what, but yea, what i find laughable is the circulation, or should i say "plague" suffered by youtube also known as the forged dionysus emblem, the 16 crucified saviors list and the Justin Martyr quote (taken laughably out of context) in an attempt to make people genuinely believe Christianity is proven wrong on those bases alone
lauddyboi 3 years ago
in all honesty, i openly admit there's a truckload of problematic information you can confront Christians with, but it's not this stuff....
lauddyboi 3 years ago
Why not "this stuff"? Are you suggesting that Jesus *is* unique as a dying and rising god? What is the "context" of the Justin Martyr quotation that purportedly shows it's been misused here? Please be specific, Lauddyboi.
And, yes, the "robe-wearin' guy" is me. Thanks.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
why not this stuff? well, partially because it wasnt even considered as a notion until the late 18th century and still isnt given merit in the academic world, your philosophical objections are valid but Subjective. is Jesus unique? yes. Martyr quote context: he was appealing (not confessing) to authorities to attempt to avoid the fierce persecution of the time by bending over backwards to come up with vague similarities between his Faith and that of pagans who weren't being slaughtered
lauddyboi 3 years ago
"Is Jesus unique? yes."
As a dying-and-rising god? Not even close. There are loads of them.
"partially because it wasnt even considered as a notion until the late 18th century and still isnt given merit in the academic world"
What isn't?
"[Martyr] was appealing (not confessing) to authorities ... bendingover backwards to come up with vague similarities...."
He doesn't characterize them as vague.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
"there are loads of them."
i wasnt saying He was the only one to make the claim, i'm saying He was the only one to back the claim up, and as for all the alledged "similarities" they all lie (pardon the pun) in one of two categories, Category 1: not a similarity sufficient enough to conclude one copied off of the other. Category 2: not predating the possible influence of Christianity (and we may discuss these allegations one by one if you desire for me to be more specific)
lauddyboi 3 years ago
It seems, Lauddyboi, that you've mistakenly concluded that my argument is that the Christian story was copied. I never made that claim in this video. The question was whether the Christian god was unique, not whether his story was copied. At the very least, the fact is that human beings across cultures have usually come up with remarkably similar stories about their god(s).
ProfMTH 3 years ago
lol well it sure seemed as thought you were headed that way, all the elements of that claim was there, but anyway, i apologize for making a false assumption, "the fact is that human beings across cultures have usually come up with remarkable similar stories about their god(s)." so you conclude that ________ ???
lauddyboi 3 years ago
The conclusion is that the Christian god's story is one of those remarkably similar stories.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
i'm not sure as to exactly which stories are being compared, but may i question rather or not any of them is believed in the way Christianity is? and by that i'm elluding to the fact that it relates to an actual human being recorded not only in religious but in secular writings as well? is there nothing unique about that?
lauddyboi 3 years ago
"...i'm elluding to the fact that it relates to an actual human being recorded not only in religious but in secular writings as well? Is there nothing unique about that?"
No.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
"He doesn't characterize them as vague."
Context is more important than Diction...
"What isn't?"
The notion that Christianity is compromised of beliefs of previous pagan myths, one must wonder why it is such a thing is Only taken seriously today in pop culture among the lay community, but for the sake of the laity it is indeed an issue that must be objectively dealt with.
lauddyboi 3 years ago
Oooh! You ended with "The Gods Love Nubia"! I love "Aida". <3 [/squealing]
Ay...the Trinity. I could never wrap my head around that one. It's like a Zen koan or something. (Huh...that actually makes a little sense when you think about it. But only a little.)
ByrdieFae 3 years ago
"Oooh! You ended with "The Gods Love Nubia"! I love "Aida""
You know, it didn't get much critical aclaim, but I thought it was a very enjoyable show with some great musical moments -- the best of which is definitely "The Gods Love Nubia." Thanks, ByrdieFae.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Great video, thank you for sharing it with us.
Deathwail 3 years ago
My pleasure. Glad you liked it.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Even if the Christian God *was* unique, that'd just mean that whoever thought of him first was just especially creative. It would have no bearing on the truthfullness of their teachings.
LaughingManRa 3 years ago
True enough, LaughingManRa.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
It is obvious to anyone who has studied ancient middle eastern history that the myths of the bible and Jesus are clearly rooted in the religious traditions of their neighbours - even extending to India.
Jesus was not the first resurrecting man/god. I've collected a number of vidclips on the origins of Christianity on my home page. Just click on my profile name to access them.
plato12000 3 years ago
"Jesus was not the first resurrecting man/god."
Theres even several stories around the time of jesus, with the same claims those guys just did not take off as the son of god! otherwise it could be Barry of Attinis, and not jesus of natherath.
TheBigGameHunter1 3 years ago
In this context about the trinity I, too, recommend watching Imam Green, a former catholic, talk about Christianity in "The Coca Cola Muslims". It is in the last quarter of his speech that he talks about Roman gods and the paganization of Christendom...very interesting, because apparently he studied Roman and Greek mythology!
MinuMina88 3 years ago
Well my player doesn't work quite well or I'd give the exact minute in which he says this stuff...but I think it's in the last quarter or last third...
MinuMina88 3 years ago
if they say the only need faith is a proof for thier Trinity beliefs. Why the hell they bother saying these liquid, past, space, or whatever to proof thier beliefs?
Faith + no proof = stupid religion
Faith + logical proof = ligical religion.
thanks for the rose.
Kite207 3 years ago
Haha, a "True" Christians should never enter a comparative religion seminar. They'll be shocked!
One argument I hear is that Christianity is exclusive and monotheistic (via Judaism)therefore 'true'. Poor folks have not heard of Zoroastrianism (Ahura Mazda)
Btw, the Trimuthri (Hindu Trinity) is rarely invoked by Hindus. It has some basis in Smartism but not the majority Vaishnavites (Vishnu as head god). The hindu trinity has been emphasized by Western colonizers - to convert others, possibly
yenmano 3 years ago
By the way, once again you've made an excellent video.
I like videos like these - I don't even *care* what false or true beliefs Christians have.
But it irks me to know end when they call other religious beliefs 'silly'. I mean I am an Atheist who tries to respect all beliefs (that are tolerant) - sometimes they do not have the same courtesy!
yenmano 3 years ago
"Btw, the Trimuthri (Hindu Trinity) is rarely invoked by Hindus."
I see. Well, whether it's a prominent feature of Hinduism or not, my point was merely that the notion of trinity is not unique to Christianity. I could have used other examples, but the Hindu one came to mind immediately. Thanks, Yenmano.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
the trinity is so hard to grasp.
Kite207 3 years ago
That's because there's nothing there to grasp. It's a failed attempt to make three gods into one god.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Praise God! Praise God! Praise God!
Father-Son-Spririt=One True God
Body-Soul-Spirit=Human Being
Solid-Liquid-Gas=Matter
Past-Present-Future=Time
Height-Width-Depth=Space
Matter-Space-Time=Physical Reality
Ladies and Gentlemen, I call upon the The Designers Awesome Design in His Creation, The Concept of 3 in 1
Kite: These are not my words, Many christians (including my mom) use these examples to prove the Trinity is logical. do you agree on this? and why? thanks
a rose 4 u ======{@
Kite207 3 years ago