There is something that is not so apparent in this country, and that is the attack on academia. and it comes from one place. The Christian Revisionists. I have purposely stayed away from saying what my political ideology is, but I can immediately tell you I'm not democrat or "left wing" like you most likely think. You don't understand rhetoric and it's impact, you simply fall for all the incendiary language that's is used purposely to trap people in conspiracy thoughts.
child...I knew of barton before this conversation with you. I already entertained everything barton had to offer...he's a liar. and you can buy it all day long. Jefferson wasn't a Christian like you previously thought. Paine released a BOOK about how implausible the bible was...that means you can go read it yourself. I know enough about barton and all you've done is repeat his rhetoric. If you're trying to say being lied to is that same as information simply being omitted, that's a big stretch.
through a lot of bad information just because of it's delivery. A lot of what David Barton does, and even people on the "left" or "right" or all this political and religious BS does is very transparent once you learn about speech. You may be here thinking I'm some sort of godless democrat who swallows what people like micheal moore spew out...I just analyze the delivery of information and start dissecting points. Please learn more about being a critical thinker and continue the process
@OskyATL I actually do both. I've just read primary documents. You shouldn't assume that someone is or is not educated. I never assumed anything about your education level. I do assume that you went through the public school system because you're saying the same kind of stuff I remember them saying. Just consider for a moment that someone with equal intellect to yours has read the same documents and finds different information. It is hard to have a real conversation with so few characters
@starfleetofficer1 If you would like to have a proper debate, PM me and we can do this without trying to limit what we say. We can also share sources more easily. If you're interested, I will try to keep up as best I can. I have a busy schedule and check youtube about once a week. If you're not interested, then I wish you the best of luck and hope that you will give critical thought to the idea that someone can have Judeo-Christian values without being a Christian.
to be perfectly honest, you're saying the same things I've heard Barton say. Without giving any critical thought to whether or not he's right. There is an agenda within Christian Revisionists to begin rewriting history. There is this attack on academia, before you begin these deep studies into history and theology, take critical thinking and speech classes. learn how people use rhetoric and talking points. Once you can see speech from anyone from what it is you'll start being able to sort
@OskyATL I've actually done both of these things, taken both speech and critical thinking classes. I've gone through college. And I have concluded that it is a bunch of malarky. People will come to their own conclusions. A professor knows no more about critical thinking than a high school graduate--it is a skill that one must learn through their own research and if a professor is so stuck on his hypothesis that he is unwilling to look into other viewpoints, then he can't think at all.
also the the effect of the founding fathers being christian...you've lost 2 already, thomas paine(probably the most important/forgotten founding father) and thomas jefferson who you thought would stand up to scrutiny but it didn't...he's not Christian like you said he was. Barton is not out of historical accuracy, and when you start trying to attack someones credibility because of the political affiliation you better start trying to back that up.
@OskyATL With Thomas Jefferson, as I said before, it matters not whether he believed traditional Christian doctrine, which he respected. It is the Christian values that he respected and observed, and inserted into our documents. This, for instance: wallbuilders . com/LIBissuesArticles . asp?id=22345.
And if you think you're so right on Thomas Paine, what about this? wallbuilders . com/LIBissuesArticles . asp?id=81
@starfleetofficer1 Furthermore, the fact that you don't see our country's values as explicitly Christian just tells me how indoctrinated your education was. Mine was too--it isn't your fault. You just need to read the primary documents and open your eyes now that you are free to do so. You don't have to listen to those teachers anymore. Christianity and Judaism teach the ten commandments, and that you should reach out to those less fortunate than yourself. Those were brand new ideas then...
@starfleetofficer1 The idea of individual wealth, individual tithing, that your money didn't belong to the king but instead to the King (as in, God), and that you could *decide* what to do with it, that you were a Steward of God's wealth, is uniquely Judeo-Christian. It was the Israelites that MLK based his movement upon. It was Moses' government in the desert the Founders based our government upon. Natural law is basically just science + the ten commandments...very simple to understand.
I have to ignore the first part because it's just irrelevant because even if you're poor you still have some "wealth." As for the ten commandments...they're useless, societies before Christianity shared equal thoughts on morality. I believe the golden rule originated with Buddhism. And the idea's Individual rights came about because of the Enlightenment which is characterized as the birth place of rationality and reason. check Thomas Paine's rights of man. he shows his reasoning which isn't -
- based on the 10 commandments and doesn't credit Christian thought in anyway. trying to derive any value from Christian influence is just wrong. But I really can't continue this any more. It's obvious I've wasted my time since the only source you can use is someone who known for lying. remember this though. YOU brought up political bias in the school system and in historians but couldn't back it up. YOU brought up being lied to but haven't named one thing you've been lied to about.
@OskyATL I did indeed back up all of those things. I told you exactly what I was lied to about. I showed you documents that referred to both of the people you said I had "lost" that show that they at least have respect for Judeo-Christian values, if they don't observe them themselves. It is you, Sir, who need to go back and look at the facts, and be willing to believe someone you disagree with who doesn't have a piece of paper that says he went through an "institution" and was told how to think.
@starfleetofficer1 Just look at primary documents. Don't use the Treaty of Tripoli, it's been argued a billion times by people just like you who never look further into what that conflict was about or why politicians may say things they don't mean, or what meaning it might have. They were trying to get the pirates to stop attacking them. We are not a nation run by the Christian church but we are a Judeo-Christian nation. When most of our people are Muslim, we'll be a Muslim nation.
@starfleetofficer1 When we stop following the founding fathers, who a majority of which were Christian, and almost all of which respected the Judeo-Christian value system, then we will cease to be a Judeo-Christian nation. What I find obnoxious is that people like you present themselves as free-thinking and then are unwilling to entertain the possibility that what you were taught may be wrong. You look at pieces of paper as the end-all determination of intelligence.
1. your main source is a MAN who is known for lying.
2. you said Thomas Jefferson was a Christian, since then you've changed that stance and said he "respected" Christianity, even though I don't see any evidence.
3. I used the exact same documents with supplemental information to "debunk" the "year of our lord" and no refutation on your part.
4. Your source that most of the founding fathers were Christian is by Barton...no one else
@OskyATL My source is primary documents posted by a man you accuse of lying but show no actual evidence, just interpretations of documents. Thomas Jefferson carried around a Bible with Jesus' sayings and that one document isn't the only time he referred to Christ. That's pretty respectful if you ask me.
5. your contingency that barton is correct is that the ENTIRE institution of Professors and Scholars is some conspiracy to promote left wing agenda's and ideology. Which is really absurb because if you started to read different works of different professors and scholars you would find somethings they disagree on. The most simplest answer is obvious, there is no conspiracy...Barton is just a liar.
what I find so confusing with so many people is that, if I was to use a source from a person that their political and religious bias was so apparent they would be disregarded immediately. But In your situation, you disregard the fact that Barton has republican supporters, does sermons for churches, and visits many churches just to teach about the bible and government. Can you name ONE historian that comes even close to that sort of bias?
@OskyATL I will say one more thing and then I'm going to stop wasting my time. Your entire argument has been against the founding fathers being religious. You didn't say anything about the principles of liberty, which is what this video is actually about. Do you disagree with the principles of liberty? I think you do, because you think the ten commandments are crap, according to what you said earlier. If that is the case, then we can go no further. But I suggest you read the 5000 year leap.
I asked for examples and you say I'm indoctrinated...that's intelligent..Keep quoting a website/person who is known for lying. check the link I posted. Some of the forms he signed even had exact wordage to use, he never decided what was written on those.
What part of deism and theism are you not understanding? I even corrected myself in saying that thomas paine was a deist...Yes Thomas Paine wrote letters to individuals stating that when the french were headed to a path of atheism he tried to tell them not to...there is nothing in that link that even alludes to him being Christian. also, Jefferson was signing a pre-printed form that he didn't even write
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries
Why does it matter? why do you need their religious affiliation? But thats a different point entirely than the one Barton tries to show...he SAID he was LIED to. You also said you were lied to...Im curious about what?
and founded on judeo-christian values? No...not at the time it was not. Idea's of individual rights were not Christian Values of the time, they were inspired by the enlightenment period which flew in the face of monarchy and religion.
@OskyATL Indeed, America was founded on Judeo-Christian values, which go back to the Ten Commandments and Natural Law, as taught by Moses. Moses established the first Republic after his dictatorship failed and Jethro told him to create another system. Moses established the system that the Founding Fathers later based their system upon. The "Enlightenment" you're referring to didn't come until much later, and was just a function of Natural Law coming to play.
@starfleetofficer1 Natural Law says that men don't like to be under dictatorships, that men like freedom. Ben Franklin referred to this as the "pendulum" of politics--that people swing from anarchy to tyranny and back. The Enlightenment was a swinging of the pendulum as the human-run institutions of the Church and State took over their lives and they decided they had enough. Any time government gets too big, it is overrun. Just because it called itself the Church doesn't mean it worshiped God.
Sigh...The Enlightenment is given a time period between 1650-1800. 1800 being the end...The Enlightenment was quite mature while the founding fathers were trading idea's. Thomas Paine who hated Christianity(he could recite passages just from memory he was so skilled, and even began writing how implausible the bible was while in a french prison just from memory) Contributed the idea's of Individual rights of man. the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These are in letters to -
- Jefferson. Certain laws that were made that may fall within the 10 commandments can fall within a wide spectrum of idea's. Please start outlining something that is concretely a Christian value that the founding fathers wanted inside our government institution. You keep mentioning Natural Law, if this is some Christian value please explain it's origin and how it's explicitly christian. I'm still not seeing any good connection or good representations of Idea's that can be explicitly Christian...
Thomas Paine was truly one of the greatest because he did not want to bargain anything. He did not want to bargain slavery, even at the time he referred to all people as "persons" unlike Thomas Jefferson who still referred to men explicitly to MEN only. Thomas Paine was centuries ahead of his time. Thomas Jefferson still wanted to maintain the inequality in woman and keep woman out of government. As far as my understanding goes, one of the reasons Slavery was bargained FOR is because of washingt
separating out all what i'm trying to type is really making this difficult to read and post. I meant to put - "I never remember any of my teachers(I am older than you btw) telling me any of the FOUNDING FATHERS religious affiliation"
@OskyATL Yes that's rather the point. No one bothers to even look into it. Whether some of the "main" Founding Fathers are/are not Christians is not really the point. The point is that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian *VALUES* (they are only "main" founding fathers because these are the ones that people agree/disagree with the most, not necessarily b/c of their role...ever heard of Richard Allen? Look him up, he was pretty instrumental too).
@starfleetofficer1 Teachers have education degrees. College professors are mostly liberal (overwhelmingly so). Very few actually care whether what they are teaching is correct or not. They mostly want to push a political viewpoint. Teachers because of the power of the teacher's unions in their lives, and professors because of the power of research funding in their lives. That's why it's better to read primary documents, which will reveal that none of these Principles are false.
@starfleetofficer1 The Founders created our nation on the foundation of Judeo-Christian values, which, as I've been trying to say, are not hinged on whether or not the founders were actual Christians, but just on the fact that they *valued* Christian values. Most of the founders were Christians, though, as that is generally the case with people who value Christian values and mention Christ in their writings constantly. I commend each founder, though, for questioning with boldness.
Jefferson considered himself a deist; he also considered himself a follower of Jesus. This is not a contradiction, in Jefferson's view, because he believed Jesus to be merely human, not divine, and believed the precepts Jesus taught to be deistical. Much of traditional Christianity, Jefferson claimed, was error and corruption added by later followers of Jesus.
a few states, but they later on ended on agreeing to the separtion of church and state. which is one of David Bartons arguments but he forgets about the fact that in order to keep all the colonies together they had to make compromises, but by the end everything ended the way it was suppose to. I hope I didn't go off track, I just saw wallbuilders and I know some of David Barton and his idea's
@OskyATL Also, separation of church and state was decided upon because they didn't want either controlling the other one, not because you couldn't have it mentioned or included in one or the other. The Founding Fathers wanted preachers to talk about politics and politics to talk about preachers, they just didn't want government making laws about religion or religion making laws about government. It's that simple.
"They didn't want either controlling the other" - isn't this the system today? does Government control religion?
"The Founding Fathers wanted preachers to talk about politics and politics to talk about preachers" are you trying to say this isn't the case? can politicians not speak about about religion? as far as I knew G. W. Bush spoke monthly with one of the biggest preachers.
also, david bartons view on this is very different from what you've outlined. are you familiar with his work?
@OskyATL LOL, yes, I'm familiar with his work. I got this from the Making of America seminar which I attended, which he sometimes teaches, for the Center for Constitutional Studies. And part of the problem with the education system is that it makes you think that either doesn't control the other but unfortunately that isn't the case today. You don't hear about it in school, of course, but there have been places where people are arrested for preaching (violation of 2 "1st Amendment" rights)...
@starfleetofficer1 ...freedom of speech and freedom of religion. This has happened when people try to preach on a street corner and in some places get arrested for "disturbing the peace." You can no longer say the Pledge in some schools because it has "God" in it. Have you ever heard Obama talk about God earnestly, not addressing his own religion but saying something like, "God has blessed America"? In Europe, nurses have been arrested for offering to pray for patients....
@starfleetofficer1 ....and this is where our country is headed if we continue to restrict people's freedoms of religion. What do you think universal healthcare will do? If you are in a state hospital working for the government and you offer to pray for someone, some atheist will get uptight and threaten to sue because his tax dollars are paying for someone to "preach". In reality he doesn't care about his tax dollars...he cares much more about how he thinks he has a right not to be insulted.
also, I did not say most were Deist. I simply said the most infleuntial founding fathers and provateours were. Althought I don't know the exact number, the ones I have researched and come to respect were deist. When discovering the history behind the making of the country, many concessions had to be made to secure a solid union of all the colonies. Freeing all the slaves was taken off the table to keep some states, also the explicit nature of separation of church and state was bargained for a -
@OskyATL But they weren't deists. Look at their primary documents. They say things like "Christ" and "Christian" and "Holy Spirit." Just LOOK at their primary documents and it will prove to you that they weren't deists. It says it right in their own words. People are allowed to doubt at times in their life. I doubt, too. It's the majority of the primary documents that proves they weren't deists.
I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the universe, in all its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design.
Jefferson says he was a "Materialist" (letter to Short, Apr. 13, 1820) and a "Unitarian" (letter to Waterhouse, Jan. 8, 1825). Jefferson rejected the Christian doctrine of the "Trinity" (letter to Derieux, Jul. 25, 1788), as well as the doctrine of an eternal Hell (letter to Van der Kemp, May 1, 1817).
So he denied revelation, hell, the trinity...Says he was a materialist and a unitarian(fits with denying trinity). the definition of a deist is belief in god without revelation, and outside of that he denies hell and the trinity...by definition he's a deist.
@OskyATL adherents . com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson . html "Later in life Jefferson held many clearly Christian, Deist, and Unitarian beliefs" As I said, people are allowed to explore and doubt. It was George Washington who said, "Question with Boldness even the existence of God, for..." (paraphrasing) "If God exists, surely he would answer with honesty". I commend Jefferson for finding what he truly believed instead of putting himself into a category like most people.
I think part of that website is in error buts lets go on what it says
Didn't believe in revelation(part of being a deist)
Thought jesus was a man(not the son of god), but like his teachings
how is this even close to Christian? You can change your beliefs through time but you can not claim to be deistic and theistic...they are 2 very different beliefs in god. The basic beliefs of Christianity is that god sent his son to sacrifice himself for the -
meant to put the david barton part at the end. David Barton himself says that the best part of him is that he's not "educated." He also says that the "system" lied to him about the founding fathers being Deists and Separation of Church and state. I never remember any of my teachers (I am older than you btw) telling me any of the religious leaders religious affiliation. Also, David Barton idea of Separation of Church and state is much different from what you describe.
he wants religion to be able to influence government on the state level because something he see's as a loop hole when the founding fathers were trying to make sure ALL the colonies united. Under Bartons reasoning, it would still be okay to maintain slaves because they allowed slaves at the time, even though it was a bargaining chip to maintain solidarity in the union.
@starfleetofficer1 also this is exactly why jefferson created an ethics and morality book on jesus while removing all acts of divinity from him...he didn't believe in divine acts of god, thats deistic....
I felt a little compelled to make that distinction because of the focus that the idea of everyone having rights trying to be demonstrated from, if not theistic, deistic point of view. The Idea of everyone having equal rights came from an Atheist, and then a group largely composed of deists took hold of this idea and traveled with it. Also the idea of natural law is some what disturbing to me, because these are the exact sort of idea's that were used for the superiority of the royal class.
@OskyATL Thank you for your comments, but I must disagree. I think that you, like most of my peers and most people educated in the past 30 years by the public school system, have been lied to by teachers with education degrees instead of people who had really studied history. Most of the founding fathers *were* Christians. In fact, you can find a list of the ones who were and weren't if you visit wallbuilders . com.
@starfleetofficer1 If you'd like me to find examples of each and every single Founding Father who was and was not a Christian, I can do so. Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. A person who debates a Christian does not have to be an atheist or non-Christian to do so--I debate Christians all the time. Furthermore, the idea that all people were equal under God is an idea that we get from the Ten Commandments. The first Republic, under Moses, was founded under Natural Law.
i saw the link and it looked familar. David Barton is more a christian evangalist than he his credible historian. He actually doesn't have a degree in anything related to history or american history. I believe he was funded by a few individuals and was able to purchase many original documents to which he uses to somewhat mislead. do a little more research into jefferson as the websites I've tried to post don't allow to submit my commit. Also, if you search out youtube on david barton you'll find
@OskyATL David Barton is the most credible historian of our time because he looks at primary documents instead of other historians' views. It is the "credible" historians who are wrong, because it is *they* who are paid to state their views. College is no longer a good place to go to find the truth because it is largely biased toward liberals and will not allow any conservative works to be published. Self education by reading primary documents is far preferred.
many video's seeking to correct his mistakes. although it's been a while, and I couldn't give an exact example, david barton has had to retract many statements because of his bias. He actually goes to sermons of priests and such to make certain relations between the bible and government that are just absurd. But also, let me correct one of my mistakes. Thomas Paine was a deist as well, He was just accused of being atheist during his time.
Thomas Paine became a great provocateur in his time. Some of the most influential people during this period were not "Christians," the most influential were usually deist. In fact, Thomas Jefferson who had a great understanding of freedom and rights, openly debated Christians at the time. The Original idea that rights were for everyone originated with an atheist, and took hold by a group largely composed of deists.
One of the monumental idea’s, which had never been seen in print before, was the idea that rights were not just for royalty but for everyone. To quote the exact part of the pamphlet: "MANKIND being originally equals in the order of creation." This idea had never really been considered, and you can find it reflected in the declaration of independence. Sadly, for Christians, Thomas Paine was no Christian or even deist for that matter.
Ah, we meet again...a couple of years ago I commented on one of your video's. This time I'm going to have to correct some points here. Thomas Paine wrote the pamphlet "Common Sense." Because of it's simple writing, shortness, and affordability, people who didn't even know how to read owned the pamphlet. The pamphlet was able to boost and energize the people of the colonies for war, and a few months after came the declaration of independence.
If everything the founders wrote is 100% perfect why was the bill of Rights not included in the original constitution. Why did they create a process for amending the constitution? Also There is a separation of church and state in the constitution and the constitution prohibits the establishment of a national church, or religion. I.E. there is no asterisk saying "however people must believe in God or a Higher power." Jus sayin.....
@whatfunnyis Actually, there is no 'separation of church and state' in the Constitution. You should try reading it sometime. It does say, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of a religion." It does NOT say, "The church shall not be involved in any government." It does NOT say, "The government shall not promote any religion." It DOES say that you can't have LAWS that establish a state religion. People are free to choose. The Constitution protects us from gov't.
@whatfunnyis Also, it was not 100% perfect. The Bill of Rights was written only a couple years after the Constitution, and they created the process for adding amendments because they knew they would need to have new laws. But the body of the Constitution was not to be altered. The amendments that did alter it are going directly against the writings of the Founders (which you can also read, they are available online). The Founders wanted religion ("universal") to be taught in schools.
@starfleetofficer1 Universal religion, Benjamin Franklin defined, was the belief in one God and the judgment of one's life at one's end. Although that no longer encompasses all religions on Earth, it makes no sense that a school would not follow teaching a Religion class where kids learn the major religions (including Christianity), because it might offend someone. And that class should be purely informational, and not poke holes in anyone's theories.
Well done. I think one of the most critical parts is that a citizenry that is not moral or virtuous can not have a moral or virtuous government. Sort of Garbage In Garbage Out. If The People aren't willing to be honest, hard working & self-responsible, then our nation can not prosper.
But people- especially liberals- have this idea that you can get something for nothing, that you can be dishonest & corrupt, as long as it's for a cause you believe in & all will be great.
@starfleetofficer1 Exactly! It's like the ultimate leftist- Stalin. He envisioned the Workers' Paradise, but to develop it, the millions of Russian peasants, that took up much of the land, were inefficient & would take up too many of the resources needed for change-so he had their food taken from them & 10 to 20 million starved to death. But it was in the name of social engineering- a sacrifice to "make a better world". And while this was going on, the American left were praising the USSR!
@RogCBrand For the left, any principles get in the way! That smacks of "right & wrong" & to the left that means being judgmental! If someone like Roman Polanski, our former governor of Oregon or other liberal creeps like sleeping with very young girls, well, who are we to judge? If powerful & very rich liberals, like the Kennedys, Gores, Soros, etc., want to live excessively while telling everyone else to cut back, well, we shouldn't judge them but simply follow their commands!
@shkopos Why thank you! I do enjoy Homefront and Call of Duty, and the occasional game of Guitar Hero. But I also write books, make videos, blog, play the piano, paint, play ice hockey, study history, occasionally rock climb, exercise at the YMCA, attend political meetings, go to church, and volunteer. Why? Because you only live once, and we are living in a truly remarkable time!
@starfleetofficer1 Indeed. I do play video games myself, but I'm not addicted to the flashing box like so many of my friends. I study hard at school, go to church, write, paint, read a lot, play Dagorhir, do martial arts, and I would rock climb if I had the money. lol. Poor starving college student.
@shkopos A lot of the time a rock climbing club has the budget and you just pay for your harness and shoe rental ($5), so you might want to look into that. But sometimes $5 a week is still too much. That's why we get employed! :)
/watch?v=ewwWM4psFo8
he pretty much lies out of his ass. continue on with your revisionists agenda
OskyATL 4 months ago
There is something that is not so apparent in this country, and that is the attack on academia. and it comes from one place. The Christian Revisionists. I have purposely stayed away from saying what my political ideology is, but I can immediately tell you I'm not democrat or "left wing" like you most likely think. You don't understand rhetoric and it's impact, you simply fall for all the incendiary language that's is used purposely to trap people in conspiracy thoughts.
OskyATL 4 months ago
child...I knew of barton before this conversation with you. I already entertained everything barton had to offer...he's a liar. and you can buy it all day long. Jefferson wasn't a Christian like you previously thought. Paine released a BOOK about how implausible the bible was...that means you can go read it yourself. I know enough about barton and all you've done is repeat his rhetoric. If you're trying to say being lied to is that same as information simply being omitted, that's a big stretch.
OskyATL 4 months ago
through a lot of bad information just because of it's delivery. A lot of what David Barton does, and even people on the "left" or "right" or all this political and religious BS does is very transparent once you learn about speech. You may be here thinking I'm some sort of godless democrat who swallows what people like micheal moore spew out...I just analyze the delivery of information and start dissecting points. Please learn more about being a critical thinker and continue the process
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL I actually do both. I've just read primary documents. You shouldn't assume that someone is or is not educated. I never assumed anything about your education level. I do assume that you went through the public school system because you're saying the same kind of stuff I remember them saying. Just consider for a moment that someone with equal intellect to yours has read the same documents and finds different information. It is hard to have a real conversation with so few characters
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 If you would like to have a proper debate, PM me and we can do this without trying to limit what we say. We can also share sources more easily. If you're interested, I will try to keep up as best I can. I have a busy schedule and check youtube about once a week. If you're not interested, then I wish you the best of luck and hope that you will give critical thought to the idea that someone can have Judeo-Christian values without being a Christian.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
to be perfectly honest, you're saying the same things I've heard Barton say. Without giving any critical thought to whether or not he's right. There is an agenda within Christian Revisionists to begin rewriting history. There is this attack on academia, before you begin these deep studies into history and theology, take critical thinking and speech classes. learn how people use rhetoric and talking points. Once you can see speech from anyone from what it is you'll start being able to sort
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL I've actually done both of these things, taken both speech and critical thinking classes. I've gone through college. And I have concluded that it is a bunch of malarky. People will come to their own conclusions. A professor knows no more about critical thinking than a high school graduate--it is a skill that one must learn through their own research and if a professor is so stuck on his hypothesis that he is unwilling to look into other viewpoints, then he can't think at all.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
also the the effect of the founding fathers being christian...you've lost 2 already, thomas paine(probably the most important/forgotten founding father) and thomas jefferson who you thought would stand up to scrutiny but it didn't...he's not Christian like you said he was. Barton is not out of historical accuracy, and when you start trying to attack someones credibility because of the political affiliation you better start trying to back that up.
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL With Thomas Jefferson, as I said before, it matters not whether he believed traditional Christian doctrine, which he respected. It is the Christian values that he respected and observed, and inserted into our documents. This, for instance: wallbuilders . com/LIBissuesArticles . asp?id=22345.
And if you think you're so right on Thomas Paine, what about this? wallbuilders . com/LIBissuesArticles . asp?id=81
I stand by my previous statements.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 Furthermore, the fact that you don't see our country's values as explicitly Christian just tells me how indoctrinated your education was. Mine was too--it isn't your fault. You just need to read the primary documents and open your eyes now that you are free to do so. You don't have to listen to those teachers anymore. Christianity and Judaism teach the ten commandments, and that you should reach out to those less fortunate than yourself. Those were brand new ideas then...
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 The idea of individual wealth, individual tithing, that your money didn't belong to the king but instead to the King (as in, God), and that you could *decide* what to do with it, that you were a Steward of God's wealth, is uniquely Judeo-Christian. It was the Israelites that MLK based his movement upon. It was Moses' government in the desert the Founders based our government upon. Natural law is basically just science + the ten commandments...very simple to understand.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
I have to ignore the first part because it's just irrelevant because even if you're poor you still have some "wealth." As for the ten commandments...they're useless, societies before Christianity shared equal thoughts on morality. I believe the golden rule originated with Buddhism. And the idea's Individual rights came about because of the Enlightenment which is characterized as the birth place of rationality and reason. check Thomas Paine's rights of man. he shows his reasoning which isn't -
OskyATL 4 months ago
- based on the 10 commandments and doesn't credit Christian thought in anyway. trying to derive any value from Christian influence is just wrong. But I really can't continue this any more. It's obvious I've wasted my time since the only source you can use is someone who known for lying. remember this though. YOU brought up political bias in the school system and in historians but couldn't back it up. YOU brought up being lied to but haven't named one thing you've been lied to about.
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL I did indeed back up all of those things. I told you exactly what I was lied to about. I showed you documents that referred to both of the people you said I had "lost" that show that they at least have respect for Judeo-Christian values, if they don't observe them themselves. It is you, Sir, who need to go back and look at the facts, and be willing to believe someone you disagree with who doesn't have a piece of paper that says he went through an "institution" and was told how to think.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 Just look at primary documents. Don't use the Treaty of Tripoli, it's been argued a billion times by people just like you who never look further into what that conflict was about or why politicians may say things they don't mean, or what meaning it might have. They were trying to get the pirates to stop attacking them. We are not a nation run by the Christian church but we are a Judeo-Christian nation. When most of our people are Muslim, we'll be a Muslim nation.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 When we stop following the founding fathers, who a majority of which were Christian, and almost all of which respected the Judeo-Christian value system, then we will cease to be a Judeo-Christian nation. What I find obnoxious is that people like you present themselves as free-thinking and then are unwilling to entertain the possibility that what you were taught may be wrong. You look at pieces of paper as the end-all determination of intelligence.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
1. your main source is a MAN who is known for lying.
2. you said Thomas Jefferson was a Christian, since then you've changed that stance and said he "respected" Christianity, even though I don't see any evidence.
3. I used the exact same documents with supplemental information to "debunk" the "year of our lord" and no refutation on your part.
4. Your source that most of the founding fathers were Christian is by Barton...no one else
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL My source is primary documents posted by a man you accuse of lying but show no actual evidence, just interpretations of documents. Thomas Jefferson carried around a Bible with Jesus' sayings and that one document isn't the only time he referred to Christ. That's pretty respectful if you ask me.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
5. your contingency that barton is correct is that the ENTIRE institution of Professors and Scholars is some conspiracy to promote left wing agenda's and ideology. Which is really absurb because if you started to read different works of different professors and scholars you would find somethings they disagree on. The most simplest answer is obvious, there is no conspiracy...Barton is just a liar.
OskyATL 4 months ago
what I find so confusing with so many people is that, if I was to use a source from a person that their political and religious bias was so apparent they would be disregarded immediately. But In your situation, you disregard the fact that Barton has republican supporters, does sermons for churches, and visits many churches just to teach about the bible and government. Can you name ONE historian that comes even close to that sort of bias?
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL I will say one more thing and then I'm going to stop wasting my time. Your entire argument has been against the founding fathers being religious. You didn't say anything about the principles of liberty, which is what this video is actually about. Do you disagree with the principles of liberty? I think you do, because you think the ten commandments are crap, according to what you said earlier. If that is the case, then we can go no further. But I suggest you read the 5000 year leap.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
I asked for examples and you say I'm indoctrinated...that's intelligent..Keep quoting a website/person who is known for lying. check the link I posted. Some of the forms he signed even had exact wordage to use, he never decided what was written on those.
OskyATL 4 months ago
What part of deism and theism are you not understanding? I even corrected myself in saying that thomas paine was a deist...Yes Thomas Paine wrote letters to individuals stating that when the french were headed to a path of atheism he tried to tell them not to...there is nothing in that link that even alludes to him being Christian. also, Jefferson was signing a pre-printed form that he didn't even write
wthrockmorton . com/2011/09/19/yearlordchrist/
OskyATL 4 months ago
written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.
OskyATL 4 months ago
1796 Treaty with Tripoli -
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries
OskyATL 4 months ago
Why does it matter? why do you need their religious affiliation? But thats a different point entirely than the one Barton tries to show...he SAID he was LIED to. You also said you were lied to...Im curious about what?
and founded on judeo-christian values? No...not at the time it was not. Idea's of individual rights were not Christian Values of the time, they were inspired by the enlightenment period which flew in the face of monarchy and religion.
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL Indeed, America was founded on Judeo-Christian values, which go back to the Ten Commandments and Natural Law, as taught by Moses. Moses established the first Republic after his dictatorship failed and Jethro told him to create another system. Moses established the system that the Founding Fathers later based their system upon. The "Enlightenment" you're referring to didn't come until much later, and was just a function of Natural Law coming to play.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 Natural Law says that men don't like to be under dictatorships, that men like freedom. Ben Franklin referred to this as the "pendulum" of politics--that people swing from anarchy to tyranny and back. The Enlightenment was a swinging of the pendulum as the human-run institutions of the Church and State took over their lives and they decided they had enough. Any time government gets too big, it is overrun. Just because it called itself the Church doesn't mean it worshiped God.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
Sigh...The Enlightenment is given a time period between 1650-1800. 1800 being the end...The Enlightenment was quite mature while the founding fathers were trading idea's. Thomas Paine who hated Christianity(he could recite passages just from memory he was so skilled, and even began writing how implausible the bible was while in a french prison just from memory) Contributed the idea's of Individual rights of man. the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These are in letters to -
OskyATL 4 months ago
- Jefferson. Certain laws that were made that may fall within the 10 commandments can fall within a wide spectrum of idea's. Please start outlining something that is concretely a Christian value that the founding fathers wanted inside our government institution. You keep mentioning Natural Law, if this is some Christian value please explain it's origin and how it's explicitly christian. I'm still not seeing any good connection or good representations of Idea's that can be explicitly Christian...
OskyATL 4 months ago
Thomas Paine was truly one of the greatest because he did not want to bargain anything. He did not want to bargain slavery, even at the time he referred to all people as "persons" unlike Thomas Jefferson who still referred to men explicitly to MEN only. Thomas Paine was centuries ahead of his time. Thomas Jefferson still wanted to maintain the inequality in woman and keep woman out of government. As far as my understanding goes, one of the reasons Slavery was bargained FOR is because of washingt
OskyATL 4 months ago
separating out all what i'm trying to type is really making this difficult to read and post. I meant to put - "I never remember any of my teachers(I am older than you btw) telling me any of the FOUNDING FATHERS religious affiliation"
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL Yes that's rather the point. No one bothers to even look into it. Whether some of the "main" Founding Fathers are/are not Christians is not really the point. The point is that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian *VALUES* (they are only "main" founding fathers because these are the ones that people agree/disagree with the most, not necessarily b/c of their role...ever heard of Richard Allen? Look him up, he was pretty instrumental too).
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 Teachers have education degrees. College professors are mostly liberal (overwhelmingly so). Very few actually care whether what they are teaching is correct or not. They mostly want to push a political viewpoint. Teachers because of the power of the teacher's unions in their lives, and professors because of the power of research funding in their lives. That's why it's better to read primary documents, which will reveal that none of these Principles are false.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 The Founders created our nation on the foundation of Judeo-Christian values, which, as I've been trying to say, are not hinged on whether or not the founders were actual Christians, but just on the fact that they *valued* Christian values. Most of the founders were Christians, though, as that is generally the case with people who value Christian values and mention Christ in their writings constantly. I commend each founder, though, for questioning with boldness.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
from your cited page
Jefferson considered himself a deist; he also considered himself a follower of Jesus. This is not a contradiction, in Jefferson's view, because he believed Jesus to be merely human, not divine, and believed the precepts Jesus taught to be deistical. Much of traditional Christianity, Jefferson claimed, was error and corruption added by later followers of Jesus.
OskyATL 4 months ago
a few states, but they later on ended on agreeing to the separtion of church and state. which is one of David Bartons arguments but he forgets about the fact that in order to keep all the colonies together they had to make compromises, but by the end everything ended the way it was suppose to. I hope I didn't go off track, I just saw wallbuilders and I know some of David Barton and his idea's
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL Also, separation of church and state was decided upon because they didn't want either controlling the other one, not because you couldn't have it mentioned or included in one or the other. The Founding Fathers wanted preachers to talk about politics and politics to talk about preachers, they just didn't want government making laws about religion or religion making laws about government. It's that simple.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
"They didn't want either controlling the other" - isn't this the system today? does Government control religion?
"The Founding Fathers wanted preachers to talk about politics and politics to talk about preachers" are you trying to say this isn't the case? can politicians not speak about about religion? as far as I knew G. W. Bush spoke monthly with one of the biggest preachers.
also, david bartons view on this is very different from what you've outlined. are you familiar with his work?
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL LOL, yes, I'm familiar with his work. I got this from the Making of America seminar which I attended, which he sometimes teaches, for the Center for Constitutional Studies. And part of the problem with the education system is that it makes you think that either doesn't control the other but unfortunately that isn't the case today. You don't hear about it in school, of course, but there have been places where people are arrested for preaching (violation of 2 "1st Amendment" rights)...
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 ...freedom of speech and freedom of religion. This has happened when people try to preach on a street corner and in some places get arrested for "disturbing the peace." You can no longer say the Pledge in some schools because it has "God" in it. Have you ever heard Obama talk about God earnestly, not addressing his own religion but saying something like, "God has blessed America"? In Europe, nurses have been arrested for offering to pray for patients....
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 ....and this is where our country is headed if we continue to restrict people's freedoms of religion. What do you think universal healthcare will do? If you are in a state hospital working for the government and you offer to pray for someone, some atheist will get uptight and threaten to sue because his tax dollars are paying for someone to "preach". In reality he doesn't care about his tax dollars...he cares much more about how he thinks he has a right not to be insulted.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
also, I did not say most were Deist. I simply said the most infleuntial founding fathers and provateours were. Althought I don't know the exact number, the ones I have researched and come to respect were deist. When discovering the history behind the making of the country, many concessions had to be made to secure a solid union of all the colonies. Freeing all the slaves was taken off the table to keep some states, also the explicit nature of separation of church and state was bargained for a -
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL But they weren't deists. Look at their primary documents. They say things like "Christ" and "Christian" and "Holy Spirit." Just LOOK at their primary documents and it will prove to you that they weren't deists. It says it right in their own words. People are allowed to doubt at times in their life. I doubt, too. It's the majority of the primary documents that proves they weren't deists.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
I'll post it in parts...
To quote the Jefferson Cyclopedia (#2147)
I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the universe, in all its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design.
OskyATL 4 months ago
Jefferson says he was a "Materialist" (letter to Short, Apr. 13, 1820) and a "Unitarian" (letter to Waterhouse, Jan. 8, 1825). Jefferson rejected the Christian doctrine of the "Trinity" (letter to Derieux, Jul. 25, 1788), as well as the doctrine of an eternal Hell (letter to Van der Kemp, May 1, 1817).
OskyATL 4 months ago
So he denied revelation, hell, the trinity...Says he was a materialist and a unitarian(fits with denying trinity). the definition of a deist is belief in god without revelation, and outside of that he denies hell and the trinity...by definition he's a deist.
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL adherents . com/people/pj/Thomas_Jefferson . html "Later in life Jefferson held many clearly Christian, Deist, and Unitarian beliefs" As I said, people are allowed to explore and doubt. It was George Washington who said, "Question with Boldness even the existence of God, for..." (paraphrasing) "If God exists, surely he would answer with honesty". I commend Jefferson for finding what he truly believed instead of putting himself into a category like most people.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
I think part of that website is in error buts lets go on what it says
Didn't believe in revelation(part of being a deist)
Thought jesus was a man(not the son of god), but like his teachings
how is this even close to Christian? You can change your beliefs through time but you can not claim to be deistic and theistic...they are 2 very different beliefs in god. The basic beliefs of Christianity is that god sent his son to sacrifice himself for the -
Please research David Barton more thoroughly.
OskyATL 4 months ago
- sins of man...he obviously didn't believe this because he didn't believe Jesus was divine or the son of god...
OskyATL 4 months ago
meant to put the david barton part at the end. David Barton himself says that the best part of him is that he's not "educated." He also says that the "system" lied to him about the founding fathers being Deists and Separation of Church and state. I never remember any of my teachers (I am older than you btw) telling me any of the religious leaders religious affiliation. Also, David Barton idea of Separation of Church and state is much different from what you describe.
OskyATL 4 months ago
he wants religion to be able to influence government on the state level because something he see's as a loop hole when the founding fathers were trying to make sure ALL the colonies united. Under Bartons reasoning, it would still be okay to maintain slaves because they allowed slaves at the time, even though it was a bargaining chip to maintain solidarity in the union.
OskyATL 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 also this is exactly why jefferson created an ethics and morality book on jesus while removing all acts of divinity from him...he didn't believe in divine acts of god, thats deistic....
OskyATL 4 months ago
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OskyATL 4 months ago
I felt a little compelled to make that distinction because of the focus that the idea of everyone having rights trying to be demonstrated from, if not theistic, deistic point of view. The Idea of everyone having equal rights came from an Atheist, and then a group largely composed of deists took hold of this idea and traveled with it. Also the idea of natural law is some what disturbing to me, because these are the exact sort of idea's that were used for the superiority of the royal class.
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL Thank you for your comments, but I must disagree. I think that you, like most of my peers and most people educated in the past 30 years by the public school system, have been lied to by teachers with education degrees instead of people who had really studied history. Most of the founding fathers *were* Christians. In fact, you can find a list of the ones who were and weren't if you visit wallbuilders . com.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 If you'd like me to find examples of each and every single Founding Father who was and was not a Christian, I can do so. Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. A person who debates a Christian does not have to be an atheist or non-Christian to do so--I debate Christians all the time. Furthermore, the idea that all people were equal under God is an idea that we get from the Ten Commandments. The first Republic, under Moses, was founded under Natural Law.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
i saw the link and it looked familar. David Barton is more a christian evangalist than he his credible historian. He actually doesn't have a degree in anything related to history or american history. I believe he was funded by a few individuals and was able to purchase many original documents to which he uses to somewhat mislead. do a little more research into jefferson as the websites I've tried to post don't allow to submit my commit. Also, if you search out youtube on david barton you'll find
OskyATL 4 months ago
@OskyATL David Barton is the most credible historian of our time because he looks at primary documents instead of other historians' views. It is the "credible" historians who are wrong, because it is *they* who are paid to state their views. College is no longer a good place to go to find the truth because it is largely biased toward liberals and will not allow any conservative works to be published. Self education by reading primary documents is far preferred.
starfleetofficer1 4 months ago
many video's seeking to correct his mistakes. although it's been a while, and I couldn't give an exact example, david barton has had to retract many statements because of his bias. He actually goes to sermons of priests and such to make certain relations between the bible and government that are just absurd. But also, let me correct one of my mistakes. Thomas Paine was a deist as well, He was just accused of being atheist during his time.
OskyATL 4 months ago
Thomas Paine became a great provocateur in his time. Some of the most influential people during this period were not "Christians," the most influential were usually deist. In fact, Thomas Jefferson who had a great understanding of freedom and rights, openly debated Christians at the time. The Original idea that rights were for everyone originated with an atheist, and took hold by a group largely composed of deists.
OskyATL 4 months ago
One of the monumental idea’s, which had never been seen in print before, was the idea that rights were not just for royalty but for everyone. To quote the exact part of the pamphlet: "MANKIND being originally equals in the order of creation." This idea had never really been considered, and you can find it reflected in the declaration of independence. Sadly, for Christians, Thomas Paine was no Christian or even deist for that matter.
OskyATL 4 months ago
Ah, we meet again...a couple of years ago I commented on one of your video's. This time I'm going to have to correct some points here. Thomas Paine wrote the pamphlet "Common Sense." Because of it's simple writing, shortness, and affordability, people who didn't even know how to read owned the pamphlet. The pamphlet was able to boost and energize the people of the colonies for war, and a few months after came the declaration of independence.
OskyATL 4 months ago
I wouldn't be surprised to see you as a Republican senator in lets say 20 years ;-)
eltamin1966 10 months ago
@eltamin1966 I may end up going in that direction, who knows. I leave it up to God. Thanks for the comment.
starfleetofficer1 10 months ago
If everything the founders wrote is 100% perfect why was the bill of Rights not included in the original constitution. Why did they create a process for amending the constitution? Also There is a separation of church and state in the constitution and the constitution prohibits the establishment of a national church, or religion. I.E. there is no asterisk saying "however people must believe in God or a Higher power." Jus sayin.....
whatfunnyis 10 months ago
@whatfunnyis Actually, there is no 'separation of church and state' in the Constitution. You should try reading it sometime. It does say, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of a religion." It does NOT say, "The church shall not be involved in any government." It does NOT say, "The government shall not promote any religion." It DOES say that you can't have LAWS that establish a state religion. People are free to choose. The Constitution protects us from gov't.
starfleetofficer1 10 months ago
@whatfunnyis Also, it was not 100% perfect. The Bill of Rights was written only a couple years after the Constitution, and they created the process for adding amendments because they knew they would need to have new laws. But the body of the Constitution was not to be altered. The amendments that did alter it are going directly against the writings of the Founders (which you can also read, they are available online). The Founders wanted religion ("universal") to be taught in schools.
starfleetofficer1 10 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 Universal religion, Benjamin Franklin defined, was the belief in one God and the judgment of one's life at one's end. Although that no longer encompasses all religions on Earth, it makes no sense that a school would not follow teaching a Religion class where kids learn the major religions (including Christianity), because it might offend someone. And that class should be purely informational, and not poke holes in anyone's theories.
starfleetofficer1 10 months ago
Well done. I think one of the most critical parts is that a citizenry that is not moral or virtuous can not have a moral or virtuous government. Sort of Garbage In Garbage Out. If The People aren't willing to be honest, hard working & self-responsible, then our nation can not prosper.
But people- especially liberals- have this idea that you can get something for nothing, that you can be dishonest & corrupt, as long as it's for a cause you believe in & all will be great.
RogCBrand 10 months ago
@RogCBrand The ends justify the means. Of course. The ultimate hypocrisy, considering that they consider themselves the party of the people.
Can you believe someone voted this down? They voted down a list of the Principles of Liberty?!? We're in trouble!
starfleetofficer1 10 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 Exactly! It's like the ultimate leftist- Stalin. He envisioned the Workers' Paradise, but to develop it, the millions of Russian peasants, that took up much of the land, were inefficient & would take up too many of the resources needed for change-so he had their food taken from them & 10 to 20 million starved to death. But it was in the name of social engineering- a sacrifice to "make a better world". And while this was going on, the American left were praising the USSR!
RogCBrand 10 months ago
@RogCBrand For the left, any principles get in the way! That smacks of "right & wrong" & to the left that means being judgmental! If someone like Roman Polanski, our former governor of Oregon or other liberal creeps like sleeping with very young girls, well, who are we to judge? If powerful & very rich liberals, like the Kennedys, Gores, Soros, etc., want to live excessively while telling everyone else to cut back, well, we shouldn't judge them but simply follow their commands!
Left=Hypocrisy!
RogCBrand 10 months ago
@RogCBrand Like Michael Moore, who thinks capitalism is evil. LOLOLOLOL
starfleetofficer1 10 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 Oh yeah! Michael Moore is filled with hypocrisy! About 350 pounds of it!
:P
RogCBrand 10 months ago
Great video.
Steve37643 11 months ago
@Steve37643 Thanks!
starfleetofficer1 10 months ago
You are a smart kid. I'm glad to see that you're actually out there doing something, and not just playing video games all the time.
shkopos 11 months ago
@shkopos We are out there. Trust me.
darklord220 11 months ago 2
@shkopos Why thank you! I do enjoy Homefront and Call of Duty, and the occasional game of Guitar Hero. But I also write books, make videos, blog, play the piano, paint, play ice hockey, study history, occasionally rock climb, exercise at the YMCA, attend political meetings, go to church, and volunteer. Why? Because you only live once, and we are living in a truly remarkable time!
starfleetofficer1 11 months ago
@starfleetofficer1 Indeed. I do play video games myself, but I'm not addicted to the flashing box like so many of my friends. I study hard at school, go to church, write, paint, read a lot, play Dagorhir, do martial arts, and I would rock climb if I had the money. lol. Poor starving college student.
shkopos 11 months ago
@shkopos A lot of the time a rock climbing club has the budget and you just pay for your harness and shoe rental ($5), so you might want to look into that. But sometimes $5 a week is still too much. That's why we get employed! :)
starfleetofficer1 10 months ago