John Cage - Sonata II For Prepared Piano

[Zetsubou2113]

Very good guys. We've established an semantic error on guitaryoder1's part. Congratulations. Moving on. I second his sentiments on the brilliance of "prepared pianism" as it were.

[tigressive]

I suddenly have the urge to hit someone with a chair...

[guitaryoder1]

I prefer to burn pianos. It makes cool sounds when the strings start popping, and after about 9 beers you can eat the pig that's been roasting on it.

[Gadsonyc]

I guess I can do John Cage's music with my own creativiy :)

[Heisenberg85]

I have to agree with the low-brows here. This is too dangerous and non-conformative to really be "art". Its just rubbish! Real music should be safe and easy, cheap and accessable.

[missbreezy214]

It didn't RUIN the piano. It became a different way of musical expression. It didn't matter if the piano was hurt, because the piece was used again. However, I read it took 3 hours to prepare the piano. I don't think it hurt it.

[zorth42]

I wonder if this can fuck up your piano

[FourTwentyGanja]

the dubstep of the classical era

[MorkaGraven]

@FourTwentyGanja The two share nothing in common. Metal is much more relative to classical music, especially the extreme subgenres of it.

[FourTwentyGanja]

@MorkaGraven idk what you said, but i have a feeliung ur looking too far into it...

[CClarkNearHigh]

That can't be good for the piano..

[AniRemi]

This is a fun song! Although I do wonder how it would sound on a regular piano.

[Gregorioledesma]

Chance Music... he used bolts, screws, rubber bands, pieces of felt, paper and plastic it was writen for a "modern dance" on an african theme .. i rekon its awesome ...to think it was written in the 40's.. and breaking away from conventional practices of music.

[bunrai]

what a lovely song. I really like it!

[observer6mm]

IT IS ART! expression, he was expressing something..... why can't anyone simply appreciate the works of artists like cage for what they are? interesting dealings with sound

[Pepinoguardian]

crab music, no art

[MrJamesR82]

With John Cage's music I go through stages. At first I try to appreciate the innovation that he tries to create, and respect him for it.

Then I think I have finally made up my mind and I think he is being pretentious.

But now I have gone a stage further, and recognise that not only is this music a beautifully crafted study of musical form, but is also a deeply touching and connective piece of music.

[DfentlyNotMyRealName]

if you fail the piano, well then invent a new instrument that still makes you look like you're a piano player !

[mathildeww]

but they will starve... 0.0

poor trolls.

[AEFic]

Are the children arguing in the comments section again? Don't feed the trolls, people.

[sweetheartsluv22]

There are some who listen to this stuff to be percieved as "cool in an obscure way". But, personally and I think this applies to lots of others I listen to this music because I enjoy it, period.

[MultiDannyboy89]

Very odd tune. Cage was definitely not a run-of-the-mill composer.

[segwaymusic]

The difference between Gamelan music and John Cage's music is that Gamelan music was created by an entire culture over hundreds of years where John Cage created this genre alone pretty much in a much shorter period of time. Because of this fact, the level of substance between the two couldn't me more different!

[Garuvul]

Reading the arguments while the song is playing makes them hilarious.

[MERTx123]

really cool! It has a lot of nuance, I like it

[guitaryoder1]

I understand that John wrote this stuff for dance music and that he wanted a percussion section but didnt have room in the pit for the whole crew so he made the piano a percussion section. So to me thats pretty damn brilliant that he invented an instrument. What have you done lately?

[bananaphone951]

@guitaryoder1 The piano's been a percussion instrument for quite a long time, how did he invent it?

[guitaryoder1]

@bananaphone951 I guess that is all that you have to add? criticism and brainless chatter about nothing? The piano is a harp! or a psaltery. I dont ever remember hearing about the piano OR the harpsichord OR the organ OR the virginal OR the psaltery OR the harp ever being in the percussion section until John Cage put it there. Piano is a loud HARPsichord. Not a DRUMsichord.

[bananaphone951]

@guitaryoder1 The definition of a percussion instrument is "a musical instrument in which the sound is produced by one object striking another." You're right, a harpsichord is not a percussion instrument. However, the piano is more than a loud HARPsichord- it creates sound quite differently. The piano hammer strikes the strings; thus, percussion. Ask any jazz musician, he or she will confirm this. I did not intend for my comment to criticize anything.

~A Pianist and John Cage fan.

[guitaryoder1]

@bananaphone951 By this definition then, a guitar is a percussion instrument. And so is a funk bass. I understand what you are saying but as a strings player, I will say that the piano is just a big HARP and there is a reason they don't put the piano next to the marimba and the snare drum in a concert. And how come they dont have percussionists perform Beethoven Sonatas on piano?

[magnalbatross]

@guitaryoder1 Absolutely! A guitar or bass are percussion if they are played as such. But their basic mode is as a string instrument.

When I do instrument families with my first grade classes, I show them that the piano fits into both string and percussion families. Once they get a chance to look inside and see how it works, they understand why before I have to tell them.

[MuzicMan118]

@guitaryoder1 I'm sorry but a Piano is a form of percussion instrument based on the mechanics of how it produces sound. there are strings yes, but the method of playing is in fact hitting or striking the keys. Not only does the player strike the keys, but that in turn cause little hammers to again strike the strings. This is the essence of a percussion instrument.

[elmreros]

@guitaryoder1 the piano is a percussion instrument, since ... ever.

[chiledofthekorn]

this is sick

if you like john cages's prepared piano work you might like " Gabriel Williams - Brotinn Aftur Vægi Beroini (prime numbers to Mersenne prime) "

[Hyardacil]

I really don't see what is there not to like about this piece.

Perhaps you are coming to listen it with the pre-expectation of hearing an average piano and all those "alien" sounds put you off.

Just imagine that it is electronic music or something and you'll find that it's not that weird at all.

[SecretTheatre]

@SamuelSeagoon Do you like, or have you ever heard, Indonesian gamelan music? Because if you complain about this, I guess you would most likely also complain about that, given the 'harmonic' (actually there is no harmony), rhythmic and - most importantly - timbral similarities between the two musics. You're right, these things are matters of taste and opinion, and have no objectivity in them, but I'm just wondering whether you would be consistent.

[DarkZekeX]

@SamuelSeagoon Nah, I just think is weird that you find the sound to be tinny, when to me, it has a rich resonance all its own. I like this piece, as well as much of Cage's other prepared piano works, because its pretty. The melodies are beautiful, the harmonies are interesting, and so are the rhythms. The combination of timbres are really pretty to my ear. I'm especially surprised this is the recording you're criticizing. Its such a rich-sounding recording.

[Giantsonicmonster]

Samuel and Zeke: stop arguing. You're never going to win, there is no point debating art, that a piece exists in the first place is the whole point. Some people take the view that all music is valid, and love everything, other people prefer to be a bit more discerning and wind up hating 80% of everything. Personally I'm the former.

[DarkZekeX]

@SamuelSeagoon XD I think you're crazy

[DarkZekeX]

@SamuelSeagoon Why?

[DarkZekeX]

@SamuelSeagoon Why do you think it sounds terrible? :o

[DarkZekeX]

@SamuelSeagoon What does it even mean when you say that you don't like it but you "appreciate it"? I don't get that. It sounds like a concession.

[SendInTheChickens]

@DarkZekeX alright fine - i fucking hate this. it's a waste of my fucking time. where's the fucking music? it's a total wankfest from start to finish: essentially what he's saying is, "look how fucking clever i am, i learnt how to play like a freak and that's given me license to stick bits of rocks and shit in my piano so that you stupid cunts have to put up with 2 minutes of directionless noise." well done, you really helped me boil it down. now take your noisy clanging shit and fuck off.

[DarkZekeX]

@SendInTheChickens I'm sorry you're too dumb to understand, and thats why you accuse him of being pretentious. The fact you call this "directionless noise" shows your stupidity hon.

[SendInTheChickens]

@DarkZekeX the fact that you think it isn't directionless shows your pretentiousness.

[DarkZekeX]

@SendInTheChickens the fact that you use that word, without even knowing what it means, shows your idiocy.

[SendInTheChickens]

@DarkZekeX so it shows my stupidity and my idiocy? and while we're at it, my folly, foolishness, foolhardiness, ignorance; madness, insanity, lunacy, nonsense; silliness, brainlessness, thoughtlessness, senselessness, irresponsibility, imprudence, ineptitude, inanity, absurdity, ludicrousness, fatuousness? and i looked up pretentiousness - attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed: sounds bang on to me. aren't dictionaries fun?

[DarkZekeX]

@SendInTheChickens Who am I trying to impress by enjoying Cage's music? You're an idiot.

[SendInTheChickens]

@DarkZekeX the same person people like you try to impress with their quirky little obsessions cultivated out of a desire to look 'different' - an imagined lifestyle critic that will sum up your coyly assembled little collection of current likes and dislikes and conclude you edgy, even thought you don't really like half the things you claim to. Look at your user name - "dark zeke"... you think you're edgy as fuck - subscription to Vice and Frank Lloyd Wright retrospective on your coffee table.

[DarkZekeX]

@SendInTheChickens Thats pretty damn presumptuous of you. No, I do not think I am edgy. I genuinely like Cage. I really like listening to alot of his music. When I defend him, its not to appear "edgy." I'm interested in lots of different kinds of music, whether its Cage, or Beethoven, or Bob Marley, or Daft Punk. I do like stuff others think is weird because they don't understand it. I hear wonderful things in it.

[SendInTheChickens]

@DarkZekeX it's time to put this to bed. i'm only arguing because i'm bored and i don't have enough to do. you are quite entitled to like what you want, and you obviously don't need my permission or anyone else's to do it. i personally don't like this stuff, and i find his 4'33" thing to be fatuous, but i'd far, far rather people were into it than lady fucking gaga or lil' wayne.

[CaramelMarshmallow]

@DarkZekeX @theblindpoet You can't really say that John Cage made great music because the entire appeal is the tonal qualities. I find the actual compositions quite banal.

[DarkZekeX]

@CaramelMarshmallow uh... no. The appeal is everything. The melodies, harmonies, rhythms. The overall texture is very appealing. The timbres are interesting too, but I don't like music for gimics. I like it for substance which Cage's Sonatas and Interludes have in spades.

[CaramelMarshmallow]

@DarkZekeX I hope you know that Cage himself said that harmony isn't important.

[DarkZekeX]

@CaramelMarshmallow Source on that? I've read alot of his writings and heard his interviews and I've never heard him say something to that effect. Regardless, that has nothing to do with this conversation. Even if he believed that, its an important thing to me, and I hear wonderful harmony in his works.

[CaramelMarshmallow]

@DarkZekeX I certainly had no feeling for harmony, and Schoenberg thought that that would make it impossible for me to write music. He said, 'You'll come to a wall you won't be able to get through.' So I said, 'I'll beat my head against that wall.' (Kostelanetz 5)

He had another quote on the matter where he said that rhythm is the defining characteristic of music instead of harmony.

But how can you call a piece of music music when it's just someone banging pots and pans together?

[DarkZekeX]

@CaramelMarshmallow He never said it was unimportant

And I don't see what that has to do with anything. This piece is for prepared piano, not pots and pans. Though you could easily call banging pots and pans together music, because it produces sound. Pots and pans actually produce interesting tones, they lend themselves fairly naturally to being used as percussion instruments. Music is just organized sounds.

[CaramelMarshmallow]

@DarkZekeX Right, but you have to draw a line between creativity and eccentricity. Anyone can bang inanimate objects together. Not many people can write something on the same caliber as the Goldberg Variations or the Appassionata

[DarkZekeX]

@CaramelMarshmallow First off, thats subjective. In my opinion there are many many composers who have equalled those musical achievements or surpassed them. There's been tons of fantastic composers through the course of history. Also there really isn't a line between creativity and eccentricity that needs to be drawn.

[Masterpeewee]

@SendInTheChickens I didn't know that sound could move in a certain direction, by which i'm guessing start somewhere and then finish somewhere else? Why?

[lucastanley84]

Carina.... ;)

[flutehappenny]

Cage had a great imagination for sound.

[deafussy]

It sounds like one of those amazing indonesians gamelan orchestras. Not only because of the scales, but the timbre and rhythm too.

[nuclearRabbit123]

Cage just liked sound. Yes there were various philosophies that influenced his compositional techniques but in the end I think he just wanted to experiment with sound and enjoy what he discovered. The man was a genius.

[MalakhorMusic]

Sembra un sogno lontano in cui involontariamente, con tanta paura perdersi... magico!!

[SendInTheChickens]

I find things like this way too conceptual to love. I appreciate it, but it doesn't move me. I do suppose there is no rule that art has to do anything of the sort, but I find such to be ultimately dissappointing.

[DarkZekeX]

@SendInTheChickens Too conceptual? What are you talking about? What do you mean you appreciate it? What are you talking about?

[gymnastgirlflips]

I like prepared piano pieces. They're interesting, and they're not too all over the place. (At least the ones I've heard)

[esilananalise]

simply genious :O woowwww

[BongKaii]

Mortal Kombat and Crash bandicoot ripped off Johnny Cage

[chooby3000]

@BongKaii you are a legend, that comment made my day

[petezilla]

John Cage said "Beethoven was wrong!"

I don't know what the hell that means (probably in response to Beethoven's famous "Es Muss Sein!") and I hate the non-idea that is 4'33", but honestly this is pretty cool and otherwordly

[thimacek]

@petezilla Well, yeah, 4'33'' is... well, disappointing, imo. But I guess it's valid as an idea. It's music in the same sense as "an oak tree" by Craig Martin is.. sculpture, or transfiguration, or whatever he envisioned it as. Minus the open explanation, of course.

As for this piece , I find it weird, but quite interesting indeed!

[Freethinkin14]

@thimacek iagreed i couldnt stand the part a the 5:00 minute mark it sounded the same as the 1"21 mark

[andrewbp9605]

the fact that so many people have exclaimed so many different opinions on this basically proves cage won.

[drummernezzy]

I picture this as a movie soundtrack for an insane person walking down the street doing insane things.

[Motleycrue469]

There is something you all should realize about atonal music. Atonal music explores the full capabilities of an instrument; it takes us out of the relm of comfort we are in while listening to tonal music. I'll be honest i hated atonal music when i was first introduced to it, but once i began to understand what it was doing i began to love it. I believe that this music is just starting to develop in the grand scheme of things, and that it will grow and be "mastered" like the tonal music of today.

[bufon63]

@Motleycrue469 Atonal is not the problem when it's in the right hands (no pun) and the "artist" (I use the term very loosely in this guy's case) is not just fucking around and making it up as he goes along.

Arvo Part is another subject..........

[DarkZekeX]

@bufon63 This isn't atonal music.

[DarkZekeX]

@Motleycrue469 This is not atonal music.

[dalecampbl8]

take 4'33 for example...okay...I can see that it's "novel" because no one has claimed silence to be a piece of music...but to me that's kind of like a farce. I can just produce a white piece of paper and call it the greatest painting ever...and sorrowfully museums have that shit....anyways...these guys are trying to break knew ground, but by doing so they create music that is to be very pointless....i really am not trying to bag on them...maybe cage could composed like beethoven...but!

[mahler151]

@dalecampbl8 What would have been the purpose of Cage being another Beethoven? He sought to get AWAY from being "another Beethoven".

[dalecampbl8]

why couldn't people just go on composing "beautiful" music...there's still a lot of room to experiment with beautiful music...all of this avant garde crap, is good for about 1 or 2 pieces, which Berg, Shostakotivich and Bartok have already explored, the rest is just regurgitation and crap and most importantly, NOT MEMORABLE

[totoro8666]

@dalecampbl8

I dont see how you can think people still don't compose beautiful music. This was obviously beautiful to Cage and many other people. Just because you dont understand something, doesn't give you the right to slate it. He's one of the most influencial composers of this century. Without all this avant garde "crap" music wouldnt be where it was today. Many of Cage's pieces are memorable, and many of the pieces have a different purpose then just notes sounding pretty. Stop being a tit.

[dalecampbl8]

that's not true, I've listened to them all. From Bach to mozart, to beethoven to tchaikovsky to bartok/hindemith/prokofiev/sho­stakovich/stravinsky...I'm well versed with them (at least their music and I dont know any theory other than basic chord progressions). I have certain displeasures with prokofiev and hindemith but I can see where they are going. I can see where John Cage is going to...but com'on....he might be "breaking new grounds" but his music...is "beyond" music...

[swordchucks4life]

@totoro8666 loltits

[Gargomon251]

JOHHNY CAGE WINS

FLAWLESS VICTORY

video still fails though. It's not even a video, just a frozen screen. Could have at least seen SOMEONE playing a piano.

[NZdodobird]

What a surprising little tune.

It is sugar plum fairies dancing with the wrong shoes!!!

[sadorange]

THIS SHIT IS MY MOTHERFUCKING JAM

[DaithiToms]

you are a deeply unpleasant character, my friend, and so I'll not enage further with you, less I be accused of worse than fatuousness. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

[Symbioticism]

@DaithiToms I think what you meant to say DaithiToms is "it seems I don't know what I am talking about" Indeed more diligence should be required in order to avoid commenting on things you do not know about. Vos factum stulte.

[worId]

@Symbioticism LULWHUT! Best YouTube argument EVAR!

[Symbioticism]

@worId loving it :P

[satanismsucks666]

Now children... Get along or I'll put you in the naughty corner.

[conversegrlsgonewild]

some parts of it sounds like a harpischord :D

[Symbioticism]

No, I was naming some analytical theories. You what an applicable one just use rhythmic motivic analysis. That is about all you need to understand the rhythmic schema of Cage's sonatas because they are not based on what I would call difficult process or premise. I know that is arbitrary to say but when a form of analysis familiar to school kids (ie motivic) is all you need to understand a piece you don't have something can be called complex as per the shared human experience of understanding.

[DaithiToms]

@Symbioticism just wondering what is your PhD thesis on? - I ask only because i've been following the thread of arguments here and it seems to me that you have distinct issues with the "layman" as a source of knowledge - how do you rate folk music and its attendant degrees of quality? Don't worry, just curious, as a PhD in sports history much of my life is spent in the correction of erroneous pub-talk but a lesson I've learned also is that there are those who are just as clever and insightful...

[Symbioticism]

@DaithiToms hmm interesting. I think that folk music is a part of the wider discourse on music and social change. If you are actually interested my thesis is on the harmonic issues of scriabin's piano forte works with special focus on the relationship with satanism and the perfect fifth but I doubt you are interested. You just think you can swan into a conversation about a subject I assume you are not well versed in and make a fatuous comment.

[DaithiToms]

@Symbioticism ...without institutional training

[Symbioticism]

@DaithiToms If you want problems with layman as a source of knowledge it is that most laymen hold thoughts in error. This does not apply to folk which is a music idea which spans a very wide number of traditions. I would hardly call a folk musician a layman within terms of music and the fact you think that clearly shows you have some very problematical ideas about music yourself.

[claytonlister]

This is neat. he uses the positions of the screws on the strings to produce false harmonics like violin players, but the sound is percussive. I suppose he also places some to create out of tune notes too for dramatic effect haha. brilliant

[monchandclaxbach]

this is music anyone who says otherwise is deaf!

[tempodimarcia]

goddamn I hate youtube's comment setup.

[tempodimarcia]

lol, haters

[Symbioticism]

Indeed there is an element of subjectivity but when you say that Cage wasn't interested in melody that is factually inaccurate. He sort out the guidance of Schoenberg. He wanted to learn how to produce melody and harmony but failed. That is rather different to not being interested. It is a wide misconception of Cage that he was somehow always anti-established ideas of music. He wasn't; he wanted to learn, failed and then went on to try and create something new to vindicate his failure.

[DarkZekeX]

This sounds so cool :) Beautiful melodies, strange harmonies, and percussiony things :3

[earlymusicof]

What does the statement "Cage sucks" even mean? I mean from an aesthetic, philosophical, or artistic point of view? Have you ever heard the complete works of Ludwig von Beethoven? I mean all of them. You might say some are truly awful. Have you ever heard a garbage truck compressor? That can be truly lovely. Have listened, truly listened to all the works of John Cage, those written from inside his essence, with the True Mind in the bosom of the universal buddha nature? Try some of those.

[fallingelevator]

werd

[moe200395823]

@earlymusicof THANK YOU!!!! I truly agree with your view point & am glad to see some understanding among all of the negativity & closed minds.

[rabidgunfight]

i have to admit usualy all of john cages music sucks! but this is okay it has a fun rhythem to it ^o^ . BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE he still sucks..

[BehindthePlay]

wonderful decision making.

[BehindthePlay]

If he did this then. imagine what he'd do with todays technology

[reinux]

@BehindthePlay become a youtube sensation for a few hours.

[GeorgianMusic]

This is wonderful! Hoe can people give only four stars to it? 100 stars!!!

[Symbioticism]

@GeorgianMusic because it isn't particularly interesting? The thought behind it is rather banal... cage failed in learning harmony from his tutor Stockhausen who said he "had no talent for music" and so put nails into a piano to attempt to create an instrument he could write for... pretty pathetic if you ask me

[Crudblud89]

@Symbioticism Stockhausen would have been five years old when Cage began his studies. I believe you're referring to Schoenberg.

Prepared piano was originally created by Cage as a substitute percussion instrument (the room of the performance was not large enough for a percussion ensemble, but could fit a grand piano) for musical accompaniment to Sylvilla Fort's dance piece "Bacchanale." Its existence has nothing to do with Cage's "talent for music."

[Symbioticism]

@Crudblud89 Indeed I did mean Schoenberg. Well done, you can spot a typographical error.

I also am well versed in the history of prepared piano. The fact remains that Cage couldn't cut it when it came to harmony and melody, even though that was his original aim, so chose a different route. He didn't have a talent for melody or harmony. Even with percussion he was a man of limited ability when you compare his work to percussionists eg. Evelyn Glennie. His work is somewhat simplistic.

[Crudblud89]

@Symbioticism There's a difference between comparing ability and stating a preference.

Simplicity does not equate to a lack of talent, no more than not having an interest in melody equates to not being able to "cut it" when it comes to melody. Many of his regular piano pieces have melody, and of course this is now the realm of subjectivity; I enjoy them, but it would seem that you don't.

[DarkZekeX]

@Symbioticism actually, if you listened to the piece you will hear melody and harmony at work. Maybe not the conventional chords you're used to hearing, or the timbres you're used to, but there is still plenty of harmony and melody. And who cares if a piece is simplistic? And simplicity is very subjective.

[Symbioticism]

@DarkZekeX How do you know what I am 'used to'? I not only write modernist music but I study it so don't use the "you just don't understand it" front because I have copious understanding in this area. Melody is directive notes that move towards a goal and harmony is the combination of notes to support and accentuate melody. The horizontal and vertical you might say and this piece doesn't present it. That doesn't stop it being music but get the facts right at least.

[tempodimarcia]

@Symbioticism Obviously Schoenberg was not floored by Cage, but if other people are, chill out. There IS a huge element of subjectivity in dealing with music of any kind except for when you have very specific rules (Bach-style chorale harmonization, etc.) I don't see the problem with the Cage sonatas (or liking them, for that matter).

[Symbioticism]

@tempodimarcia I don't see a problem with this sonata or a problem with liking them, but it is fatuous to say they are great works in music, as they simply are not innovative or intellectual enough to be described this way as some people do here. Also, the objectivity of music is a vast sphere far beyond Bach or even western-art music and the fact that laymen don't understand it just emphasizes the skewed view we have on music in western modern culture.

[DarkZekeX]

@Symbioticism Okay, you need to use these very special audio devices when you're listening, they're called ears. Use those and you will hear the clear and obvious melodies and harmonies. Seriously, you can't hear the melody? Its obvious. Its a tune.

[Symbioticism]

@DarkZekeX I think if you think this is a tune you need the use the real listening device which is called your brain. Just because one part is higher in pitch doesn't make it a tune. I would not call that a tune but rather just a part of the percussion which is what this piece was written as; percussion. Also, there is no semblance of harmony which leads me to believe you do not know what harmony is. Would you care to explain the harmony in this?

[DarkZekeX]

@Symbioticism Alrighty :) you get a free music lesson right now~

Harmony is when a piece has more than one pitch sounding simultaneously, creating intervals and chords and textures of sound, which this piece has plenty of. Now, I don't want to insinuate that you're an imbecile, so I'll just come right out and say it: You are an imbecile.

[Symbioticism]

@DarkZekeX That is a very simplistic view of harmony to be honest and is the typical layman response. Harmony is the vertical context of melody and tonality. This context is missing in this piece, seeing as their is no logic behind the combination of notes I would not call it harmonic.

[Symbioticism]

@DarkZekeX Do not get me wrong, I am heavily in favour of exotic and creative combinations of notes WITHIN A LOGICAL FRAMEWORK. Without logic and process sounds cease to be music. I therefore argue that what you hear is not harmony (although I am not accusing this piece of not being music!) but rather percussion.

[Symbioticism]

@DarkZekeX Seeing as you chose to attack me ad hominem I think I will do the same. Just because you seem not to understand musical discourse does not mean it does not go on and isn't valid. While I am writing my PHD in musical analysis I will certainly be talking on the objective quality of music, and will be recognised by the intellectual musical community. So it would seem vapid for you to give me a music lesson as I would suggest I have a more profound understanding of music than you do.

[DarkZekeX]

@Symbioticism Guess they'll give a PHD to anyone these days.

[FeeelixWright]

@DarkZekeX Tsk tsk, both of you. Mr. Cage would be terribly upset by this bickering.

[Symbioticism]

@FeeelixWright lol :)

[Symbioticism]

@DarkZekeX I wouldn't know because I don't sit on the board that makes the decision. Neither do you. Yours was a fatuous comment.

[DarkZekeX]

@Symbioticism Whatever.

[DerangedRanger1]

@Symbioticism I am doing a PhD in musicology. I am confused what you mean by "objective quality of music." Can there be such a thing?

[Symbioticism]

@DerangedRanger1 I am referring to analysis of tonal complexity, intimation and balance either within pre-existing structures or via new models. Also, the social context of music is relatively quantifiable, in an ethnomusicalogical setting via survey or historical comparison. I just feel it is wrong to say that all aspects of music are subjective, just as it is wrong to say all elements are objective. What area are you researching? Will I see your work in anye journals any time soon? :)

[DerangedRanger1]

@Symbioticism But isn't the idea of "complexity" of any sort a subjective value judgment? When someone says that something is complex, that means that she or he views it as such, but says nothing about the object itself. If you find a group of people who say "this is complex," then what you have is "inter-subjectivity," i.e. a group of people who agree on a subjective value judgment. Any choice of model or systematic analytic method is chosen subjectively. Its merely an invented framework.

[Symbioticism]

@DerangedRanger1 To a degree I agree: any and all judgements of the world are based on common subjectivity. However, seeing as there is no further measure of our universe than the reality we experience it seems flawed to dismiss shared experience. When I say complexity I am measuring it against a number of things such as exploration of sonority relationship, mathematical schema or extending internal musical relationships.

[Symbioticism]

@DerangedRanger1 Models of analysis like Shenkerian analysis or set theory are held as measures because they best explain the experience of music and the relationships therein on a wide scale. If they fail to explain something then they are discounted. These principles of theory, experience and proof bare more than a little resemblance to the scientific process. Not that I am saying analysis is scientific I just think it shows to a degree the objectivity of some aspects of music.

[DerangedRanger1]

@Symbioticism How will set theory or Schenkerian analysis explain a music whose aesthetic is not based on pitch? Are you arbitrarily determining somehow that pitch is the only element that is worth explaining?

[DarkZekeX]

@Symbioticism Invention is very pathetic, so is creativity, and being different.

And if Stockhausen said that, then he was wrong.