The two links have been removed. She made a comment that she would rather fake a seizure than be a bridesmaid. NOT COOL. Those links haven't been removed yet.
"Who are you to judge?" That always cracks me up. They don't see the irony that they too are judging, they just judge god or whatever as 'good' instead. It is still a judgement. Oh those hypocritical Christians.
You know you've heard the voice of God when you want to believe and be rewarded so bad you're willing to lie to yourself to make yourself believe and aren't willing to acknowledge the lie.
You may on a level believe others have heard too if they share your worldview, and dismiss out of hand those that don't.
You'd have to be a desperate, wretched and intellectually dishonest creature indeed.
I actually do see some similarities between (at least) obsessive compulsive disorder and the "need" of many religious people to pray or attend confession. To me if religious belief is not mental disorder, it is pretty close to one.
Just saying. I am going your vids one by one right now and this is first time I disagree (somewhat).
Have you heard of Julian Jaynes' "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"? He theorizes that from prehistory through the early bronze age, the right hemisphere of the brain used auditory hallucinations to communicate its abstract, big-picture analysis and commands to the obedient, managerial left hemisphere.
So one possible explanation of God's voice is that *everyone* was schizophrenic in Biblical times, and their culture said the voice's name was Yahweh.
@MatthewHudghton I would also add that i think some people who have claimed to hear the voice of God over the years of history will definitely be mentally ill. Not
as for the lady asking christians to complain, err i think theology she's of a differant persuasion - i wouldn't say there are any subdivisions of christians who are saints, the bible calls all christians saints, just another word for it. Some people hear the voice of God and some people are ill & need help.
Excellent point about knowing whether or not a person has heard the voice of God or not.
The Christian station I listen to, and I don't mean to strawman them, says that we know it is God if it follows what God has said in the past. Of course this begs the question that if we need a standard to judge whether the word is authentic or not, then how do we know the scriptures in the canon are the apropriate scriptures.
Chemical elements obey certain laws. e.g. If hydrogen is reacted with chlorine in certain amounts it will will always give you hydrochloric acids. The molecular structure of atoms will remain the same for millions of years unless ionic forces are exerted, esters can be drawn from any carboxilic acid, gases will always equally distribute themselves in any space they occupy through osmotic translations etc.Basically,don't you thinkt there's a being that created them & determined their behavoiur?
it seems that human beings are the only creations that don't obey God or some sort of law. Do you think that the these chemical elements developed into a species all by themselves and we developed from single cell organisms to human beings with complex physical structures that evolved by themselves. Look at the eye, the most complicated organ which is formed with a pin point accuracy that you think evolved by its self. If we evolve by ourselves we're going to be flying soon you know
This video isn't about evolution, FDotAzz. I take it that you're raising it because I mentioned how moral standards evolved over the history of our species. I've done a video on intelligent design that you would a more appropriate place for a discussion of evolution. As for the eye, it's not quite as "pin point" as you seem to believe. You might want to do a bit more reading on this topic. I have some suggestions in my video on intelligent design.
I will have a look at it and will comment on the points you raise, but I'll pray that God shows himself to you in the meanwhile because he's there and probably monitoring this conversation. I can say this because of the spiritual experiences I've had unlike toher people that might just look at scriptures and conclude without empirical evidence. Anyways, I'll give the video a look and see what you're saying in it
God is a spiritual neing that made human beings. Now if those human beings rebel against him and start killing each other, worshipping funny ornaments and living a chaotic lifestyle, what would he do?
Would he treat them kindly? The Israelites where them only once that observed God's law and he protected them from any nation that tried to come against them.
Moral of the story: If you don't follow God's way, on God's earth don't expect things to work out for you in this life or the next
You're just avoiding the ugly commands the Bible has Yahweh giving his devotees: go kill you son; go kill every man, woman, and child in this or that city; and so on.
who is Yahweh, I'm confused because you won't find that anywhere in the bible I have. Maybe you read the wrong one. Are you not confusing the bible with the q'uran or book of mormon. Anyways, in my bible God says in Isaiah 55:8, "My thought are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways".
It seems like you're questioning Gods morality and his ways, maybe you should write your own bible or pray to the god that you believe in and see if he answers you.
"who is Yahweh, I'm confused because you won't find that anywhere in the bible I have."
Oh, don't be a dolt, FDotAzz. "Yahweh" is one transliteration of the name Exodus has the biblical god use for himself (YHWH -- which, by the way, was the name of a local god worshipped in Midian where Exodus claims the biblical god revealed himself under the name). If you don't know that, you should. As for your god's ways, you judge them, too. The difference is you've concluded his killing is OK.
You know what if God killed a million peopkle tommorrow because they disobeyed him, what could I do about it. Should I hate a being vastly superior to me,should I say he doesn't exist and block him out my head because I think he is harsh, or should I humble myself, call out to him and understand the reason why things happened.God will reveal himself to you if you look for him. I know 100% beyond reasonable doubt God exists and I wish you had the same spiritual experiences I have heard
"You know what if God killed a million peopkle tommorrow because they disobeyed him, what could I do about it. Should I hate a being vastly superior to me...."
So, power = morality, in your opinion, FDotAzz? Might makes right? Fascinating and not at all unusual for religious believers.
No, but being the powerful being that he is and given that he sees everything, from every point of view, I trust his judgement.
Who sets the standard of morality?
You're in denial, so go on live your life, have fun, lots of sex, get drunk, curse at people and you won't be accountable to noone. I mean, you're just flesh anyways right? So when you die God won't remind you of everything you said and it'll be the end of existance for you. Have fun, friend. Sorry I wasted your time
i'm pretty sure you wouldn't slap me lol Having been involved in gangs and a LOT of fights I'm pretty sure I would own you. Besides, I try not to get involved in squabbles with people who aren't well educated. You haven't brought forward any arguments, all I will say to you is that God is that God is real and he spoke to me. He is powerful and when you die, I hope you will have opened your heart to him so he can show you he's real
the truth is God does speak to people today and that is something that people can't quite get around because scientific logic eradicates anything spiritual. I myself have had numerous supernatural encounters and have heard the audible voice of God and has foretold things that have happened. Once you get baptised in the Holy Spirit you will receive a lot of spiritual encounters and a lot has happened in the last 5 months of my life. Praise God
Well, mazel tov, FDotAzz. Whatever floats your boat. Just do yourself and your neighbors a favor: if that audible voice you believe you're hearing ever tells you to kill someone (as various biblical texts portray Yahweh doing) or anything like that, lie down and let the feeling pass.
God is faithful, he would never tell you to kill anyone. He could tell of who to help or pray for. He could even tell me to comment on your video just to let you know he's not invisible you never know
The wages of sin is death. If you actually bother to read the bible, you will find that the amalekites, jebusites,hittites... refused the Israelites to pass through on their journey aggressively. So God told his people to defend themselves and the underdogs prevailed. Jesus brought a new covenant, that can connect you to God himself because now that Jesus died for your sin God can overlook anything you've done.Just humble urself and ask God to reveal himself to you in the name of Jesus & he will
Oh, you can be assured that I've not only read the Bible, FDotAzz, but I've also studied it quite closely. And I continue to do so. The biblical texts present Yahweh commanding his people to displace persons from their homes by any means necessary, up to and including slaughtering them. They are portrayed as the aggressors, not the people who were being thrown off the land. It sounds like it is you who needs to read the Bible. Good luck to you.
Firstly, whose Yahweh? Where do you find that name in the bible? Secondly, here's a clear example of when God told the Israelites to deal with wicked people trying to stopd them from making their journey:
The LORD said to Moses, "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."
The god who introduced himself to Moses in the form of a burning bush. The god who appears throughout the collection of texts that have come to be called the Bible.
"Where do you find that name in the bible?"
Genesis 2:4-5, 7-9, 15-16, 18-19, Exodus 6:2 ... shall I go on?
How can one know wether a person has or has not heared the voice of God?
The honest to God (no pun intended) answer is that this has ALWAYS been determined by OTHER people AFTER the fact.
Most of the people who HAVE claimed to hear the auditory VOICE of God, or seen Jesus INSTANTLY thought that they had lost their minds, began to seek help, and CONSTANTLY questioned the reality of these aparitions. (St. Faustina is just one relivent example)
Interesting. Ya learned me somethin' there, CazTV2000. I must confess, the whole Faustina phenomenon never sparked my interest when I was a believing, practicing Catholic. But it was impossible to ignore the phenonmenon since it was so popular in Catholic circles -- up to and including John Paul II.
70 per cent of people report hearing voices at least once--For physical evidence of a second intelligence within yourself-Vivid Dreams onset, plus repeatable handtingles- search YouTube on LAY GNOSIS 1 BEGIN HERE site truebluehealerDOTcom--Agnostic testimonials including doctors from 4 countries. 10-12 mins gets you started.
An intelligent question. It means a slight physical change occurrs in you that is daily confirmable. 24 hrs anytime.Meaning you cant ever doubt that something has slightly chnaged.
I like the Noah Cross (John Huston) line from Chinatown: "Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all become respectable if they last long enough."
It's funny how many people today base their LIVES on statements uttered and recorded thousands of years ago which, if uttered today, would generate calls to 911.
Old adage: One is pious that talks and prays to god, one is insane that hears god talk to them. A little odd that this is held true even by stout believers. But when you step into a world of make believe why should there be any reason?
how observent are you, even to spot the 2 ways of reading the site name, hahahahah I have ben laughing and giggling, And i do not want to be a Saint, constantly on your knees, to something/someone that made such a mess of everything. I bet heaven has gone all wrong too,war probably thats why Jesus is taking so long to come back.there have been cases of rebellion in the angelic community, hence Satan who was the most handsome of angels.(biblically correct)What am I like hahaha.
that is, if you believe that Shakespeare and Einstein and Joan of Arc and Hendrix really will be engaged in a friendly game of poker and or Euchre in the back room of the world we enter when we pass through the pearly (or is it golden) gates of heaven... or if you believe in heaven at all
but on that note, it must be said that, since the introduction of psychotrophic drugs its not just the Catholic church that has suffered from finding "Saints". The quality of artists, philosophers, musicians, writers of all walks of lives has diminished. Honestly, when we make it to heaven, and they ask which era we are from, do you think Shakespeare and Socrates and the likes will cover there mouths as they stifle a laugh when we say "late 20th, early 21st century"??!
I don't believe Joy was saying that the Saints were mentally ill. I saw the originaly episode, and stay firm to my belief she was saying that its impossible to know this day because people who "hear voices" are automatically diagnosed as having a disease, and that psychosis is treated with drugs that make them zombi--- uh, I mean, "numb" (as many, many people I've met describe the feeling of being on even mild antidepressants)...
Anyone that hears voice regardless of being an atheists or theists should go get a CAT scan, when all is said and done, god does not speak threw tumors.
You said u offerred a retraction and then when I suggest it u give a sarcastic reply; I think u are by far happier in a world I know nothing about, and I love the one I know..perhaps one day you will see the light.......God bless you, yes...God!
iloveshoesdoyou, I've read all the comments that you've made so far in this video and I for one don't understand what you mean; I think it's likely that ProfMTH doesn't either.
ProfMTH is a very reasonable person. Perhaps you could explain things more carefully?
Prophets have signs that accompany their message. If you're 100 and your wife is 90 and angels tell you you'll have a baby and you have one when they say so then that's proof. (Gen 21:2)
The view of supernatural messages is cultural. Remember randyhelzerman's resurrection vid. No one in the community questioned the father allowing his daughter to die. They don't doubt the supernatural because they live it.
So if one of your fellow believers came to you saying that God had instructed her to take her son to a particular place and kill him as a sign of her faith, you'd hang out and wait to see whether any signs accompanied the message, Heyalun?
Why would they tell me? Notice that Abraham withheld this knowledge from everyone. (Gen 22:5-8) After the fact the angel called out from the heavens so that Isaac heard. (Gen 22:11) He would have definitely seen the ram that Abraham said God would provide. (Gen 22:13) And Isaac's birth was miraculous. Abraham was already confirmed. There was no reason to doubt him.
Has my fellow believer given me an accurate prophecy regarding the birth of her son at 90+ years of age, do angels visit her, and do I find out after the fact that God told her to kill her son, but then stopped her and her son heard the angel and that God provided an animal for them in harmony with my sister's prophecy?
If yes, I would think something supernatural was going on.
Without any more information, my answer to your question would be, "It depends." I'm not wiggling, you just don't give enough information for me to answer.
"Without any more information, my answer...would be, "It depends."
Let's say one day you wake up & you meet an angel. You don't know how, but you know absolutely that it's an angel sent by god (call it a faith feeling). He tells you to kill your (any loved one) as a sign of faith. Do you do it without hesitation or question?
I don't think that's a valid question because Jehovah doesn't behave that way. It's not analogous to the account of Abraham. He had assurance that God would "raise [Isaac] up even from the dead." (Hebrews 11:18, 19) So he didn't just "wake up & meet an angel." There was a longstanding relationship involving angels coming to him.
Ah, the revisionist reading of the Abraham story by the writer to the Hebrews: it's OK that Abraham tramped off to the mountain to kill his son at God's directive because God wasn't really going to let the kid die; he would have raised him from the dead. A Jello-like wiggle, Heyalun.
If you are going to assume that the Bible is God's word for the sake of argument, then you can't say it's not when I try to use it to answer your question. YOU'RE the one wiggling by moving the goalpost.
Hebrews is not revisionist because Abraham has a promise from God that his seed will be through Isaac. That can't happen if he's dead. So as he's going off to kill him he tells his servants, "I and the boy want to go over there and worship AND RETURN TO YOU." (Gen 21:12; 22:5)
Do you notice a pattern of you accusing me of being dishonest, ProfMTH? Why is that? You ask biblical questions and when I try to explain my view I'm always dishonest somehow.
I didn't call you dishonest, Heyalun. I said you were wiggling on the direct question I asked you about what you would do if you encountered someone who told you she had been directed by God to kill her child. I didn't think you were being dishonest; I merely thought you, quite understandably, wanted to avoid answering the question, as you did.
Did I say I was assuming the Bible was God's word for the sake of argument? Not here. Later authors of texts that were put in the Bible filled in some of the blanks, helped earlier stories to make more sense. The writer to the Hebrews re God's direction to Abraham to kill Isaac is such a case. The Genesis passage you quote can be understood in context as Abraham not wanting to say what he was about to do. Those travelling with him might have thought him nuts and tried to stop him.
If you ask questions that don't make sense or that are based on a false premise, I'm not wiggling to point that out. To insist that I am when I say I'm not implies dishonesty.
ProfMTH do you still abuse babies?! Answer yes or no and don't wiggle?
OK, you're not assuming it's God's word but you are arguing from the standpoint that these things really happened. You can't then be selective when I do the same.
Isaac was born at the exact time these angels told Abraham, then he is promised that this child would provide a great deal of progeny for him, but that he should kill him first. Why would he doubt that this boy would be revitalized when his childless, 90 yr old wife's womb was revitalized to produce him?
Hebrews doesn't revise in light of that and the longstanding relationship Abraham had with God. (Heb 11:8-12, 17-19)
"I don't think that's a valid question because Jehovah doesn't behave that way."
How can you claim to know how god thinks? Its god, a being infinitely beyond human understanding. This being so, god can do whatever god wants. So I feel its a valid & direct question. BTW, I asked if YOU woke up & met an angel, not abraham. Let's put it this way, then: Are YOU willing to do ANYTHING your god commands you to do?
[1]God tells us what he thinks. Christianity has patterns, like a puzzle. Imagine you have a fairly complete puzzle of a beautiful field of daisies. If someone hands you pieces that are the moon's surface, you know they don't fit. So we're told: "Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed. (Galations 1:8)
[2]So even an angel can't contradict this "pattern of healthful words." (1 Timothy 1:13) If he does, it's not from God. God just does not behave the way your question implies. So I disagree that it's valid.
"Are YOU willing to do ANYTHING your god commands you to do?"
If I heard a voice telling me to kill my child, I should hope I'd have the presence of mind to seek medical assistance immediately. And if I lacked said presence of mind, I hope there's someone nearby who has it.
Oh, I don't know ... because there is no God. That seems as good a reason as any. And even if there were a God and he was in the business of telling people to kill children, I wouldn't be much interested in what he had to say.
You asked me a hypothetical question that you won't answer straight?! Is the answer yes or no? Keep in mind that this is the Almighty God who holds your life and that of you child in his hands. If you don't want to answer, I understand.
Not just *now*, but always! Apparently your world is a lot more comfortable if you can paint me a liar. Unfortunate.
I guess I'll have to interpret "I wouldn't be much interested in what he had to say" as "no." I actually wouldn't believe you if gave the smart answer of "yes." The scriptures and my experience tell me clearly that neither belief, morbid fear, nor desire for everlasting life can move one to obey God.
Well, Heyalun, it must make you feel better to try to convince yourself that I always "paint [you] a liar," even though it's not true. I'm not going to waste my time with such nonsense, so either step up the game or don't bother posting. This isn't a complaint department, much less a false complaint department. Thanks.
"Always" may be an exaggeration, but it was not just a complaint. I find that I often feel you're dishonest - and not just you, but a lot of people who disagree with me. It's human.
Knowing that, I try to force myself to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm saying, give me a break. I've never been deceitful in my comments to you.
Perhaps "it's human" for you to feel those with whom you disagree are often dishonest. It's not my deal. If I think you're being dishonest, I say so; if I think you're avoiding a question, I say so; if I think you're nibbling the edges rather than dealing with a central issue, I say so. In sum, I have no trouble telling you precisely what I think about things, and not once have I even suggested that you're always or mostly dishonest. TIME TO MOVE ON! ;-)
"Imagine you have a fairly complete puzzle of a beautiful field of daisies."
Was abraham equally unsurprised by the deed he was commanded to do? Was its significance equivalent to an errand to buy a loaf of bread? Was his response blase?
We are not told of Abraham's surprise or lack thereof. We just know he obeyed even though it was difficult because of his love for isaac. I don't quite get your point about bread. This event was of great significance though. It was connected to the promise of a seed by means of which the whole world would be blessed. (Genesis 22:18)
"We just know he obeyed even though it was difficult because of his love for isaac."
If, as the writer to the Hebrews claimed, Abraham knew God would raise Isaac from the dead, how difficult could it have been for Abraham? Didn't he truly believe Isaac would be raised from the dead?
Note how when the hypothetical situation you proposed above is applied to you, you chose to disobey God even though you knew it was him speaking to you.
Belief does not equate to ease of obedience. The scriptures (and current times, for that matter) are full of people that believe or talk to God, but reject him. This is why God rewarded Abraham abundantly and why the faithful are called his "sons." (Gal 3:7)
So the knowledge that God would raise Isaac from the dead, which the writer to the Hebrews indicates made it possible for Abraham to do what he did, wasn't truly a substantial factor?
If "that knowledge was a substantial factor," why would Abraham have found doing what God instructed him to do to be so difficult? Interestingly enough, Genesis doesn't indicate that Abraham struggled at all about this. Quite the opposite.
[1]ProfMTH, If you want to press the issue then I can't really be dogmatic about it, because the scriptures don't describe his feelings about what he was going to do. What we do know is that God referred to Isaac as "the only son who [Abraham] so love[d]" and "[his only one]" and said his willingness to sacrifice proved that he was God-fearing and praised and blessed him for it. (Ge 22:2, 12, 15-18)
[2]So I'm deducing that it was not an easy task, because the account doesn't make sense if it was.
I'm also assuming that since Abraham was not a sociopath, binding his son, putting him on an altar, and killing him would be hard even thinking he'd be resurrected.
He could have displayed the same attitude you do and said, "Forget that! I'm not dealing with this God."
It wouldn't be a story for a book of fairy tales, but the Bible is brutally frank about the flaws and failures God's creatures. If he had made this decision, he would not have been the first or the last (e.g. Satan, Adam, Cain, Korah, Balaam, Solomon, Asa, Judas).
"So the knowledge that God would raise Isaac from the dead,"
Doesn't that take away from the whole "sacrifice" concept. If he had such knowledge, then he wouldn't feel he would be losing anything at all. So what would be the big deal?
Your concept of sacrifice may be different from the Judeo-Christian one. Everything belongs to Jehovah already. You can't give him anything except joy. (Proverbs 27:11) Sacrifice is a demonstration of love and trust, but it's always short-term loss and long-term gain. (Malachi 3:10) Think about a mother who is willing to deal with pregnancy and labor because she is rewarded with a beautiful baby. (John 16:21)
"I wasn't implying he didn't have joy, but that we can increase it."
How can you add to infinity?
"Think about a mother who is willing to deal with pregnancy..."
Child bearing is not the sacrifice part; it is painful & risky, but nothing is given up. Raising a child, there in lies the sacrifice. Much is given up to raise a person who is just as likely to hate you as he or she is love you. Its a 50/50 crap shoot. That's sacrifice.
I don't understand your question, unless you're implying that God is "infinitely joyous." If so, I don't even know what that means, let alone believe it to be true. From a Biblical perspective God can be pleased or saddened by our actions.
"Raising a child, there in lies the sacrifice."
OK. Let's go with your scenario if you don't consider the pain and risk of pregnancy and birth to be sacrifice.
So he's not the same yesterday, today, and forever? He changes, like being joyous one minute and sad the next, pleased at one moment and angry at another?
"So he's not the same yesterday, today, and forever? He changes, like being joyous one minute and sad the next, pleased at one moment and angry at another?"
God is extremely versatile and responsive, having thoughts and feelings that run deeper than our own. The scriptures you refer to have to do with his personality, his qualities, his word, his standards.
"God is extremely versatile and responsive, having thoughts and feelings that run deeper than our own."
That description, which is akin to that of human behavior, is inconsistent with a being of omniscience. Responsive implies reaction to surprising events. Since god supposedly knows all & sees all, then all is present & nothing is a surprise. There is nothing to react to nor is there a logical reason to consider god responsive.
Phrase it however you'd like, Heyalun. What you're saying is that God is *not* the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changes, he responds, he is angered and saddened, made happy and ... well, it's starting to sound like he's got a very human behavior pattern. Interesting.
"he's selective with what he sees. Otherwise there would be no free will."
That's the most inane claim I've ever heard said about an omniscient being. An action like that is like me making a movie, then pretending I have never seen it & blaming the actors for choosing such shocking outcomes in the story. Basically, god is a liar & enjoys being angry at & beating his kids.
Heyalun "[God is] selective with what he sees. Otherwise there would be no free will."
Deadman "That's the most inane claim I've ever heard said about an omniscient being. An action like that is like me making a movie, then pretending I have never seen it & blaming the actors for choosing such shocking outcomes in the story."
[1]Here's the problem with the way you two are thinking about God: *Man was made in God's image.* (Genesis 1:26) We have feelings because he has them. We are made to understand and relate to him on some level, so he's not *completely* incomprehensible and mysterious. If you see a friend after a long time and you say, "You haven't changed," you're not saying they were in suspended animation.
[2]You're talking about qualities. The meaning is the same with regard to God. The scripture at Hebrews 13:8 that says Jesus is the same *can't* mean he's absolutely unchanged because he was sent to Earth, died, was resurrected, and restored to heaven. Verse 9 says don't accept different teachings. Why? Because Jesus hasn't changed, so we shouldn't take on new and heretical beliefs.
[3]If "omniscient" (this word is not in the Bible) includes knowing everything in the future, then God is not that. He is fully aware of everything that's happening and can see events ahead of time. That does not mean that he knows every single detail of the future though. If so, how could he say "NOW I do know that you are God-fearing" to Abraham?
[4]"Where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom." (2 Corinthians 3:17) In harmony with this he freely gives his creatures authority and power. So he gave humans dominion over the earth and its creatures. There are guidelines, but also latitude for expression. The punishment is for abuse of power, not for doing something God scripted -- that wouldn't mesh with his personality or make sense biblically.
Wow, Heyalun, I'm sort of amazed that you're saying you don't believe God is omniscient. So God is *not* "perfect in knowledge" then (Job 37:16), and God doesn't "know all things" (1 John 3:20), contrary to what the Bible says, is that correct?
Again, look at the context. Job is talking about "the wonderful works of the One perfect in knowledge." In other words, 'he knows how to do everything and he does it magnificently.'
1 John 3:19-24 is talking about God's familiarity with his servant's actions and what's in their hearts.
Neither of these says anything about him knowing every detail of everything that ever will happen.
Words don't have understandable meaning without context. If I type the word "gravity" what is my meaning? What information am I conveying to you? You don't really know, because it lacks context. I could be talking about planetary orbits, the far-reaching effects of the caucus, or an endless number of things. The Bible is not different in this regard. If you want to know meaning, use context. What do you think these words mean and why? What is the surrounding text discussing?
When I read that God "knows all things," I -- unlike you, apparently -- don't have any trouble understanding what it means. The same goes for the term 'perfect knowledge'. Quibble all you want, but in your effort to have the text of the Abraham story make sense -- a forlorn project, if ever there was one -- you've denied what your scriptures clearly teach, i.e., that the biblical god is omniscient.
So please just answer the question you were asked, Heyalun: "knows all things" doesn't mean "know all things" and "perfect in knowledge" doesn't mean "perfect in knowledge," correct?
[1]ProfMTH, the trouble is that you don't know how to use context. I already answered the question as to what these words mean and your latest question is nonsensical. The answer is, yes, they mean what they mean. Now, does that tell you anything?
These phrases don't necessarily connote anything about the future. If I say I "know everything" about Barry Bonds, does that mean I know his future?
[2]If I say I have "perfect knowledge" of carpentry, does that mean I'm familiar with the frame of every structure that ever was and ever will be? It might, but what you have to do is ask me or use your knowledge of me and the context of my statements to figure it out.
I feel silly trying to tell you how to use context. I know you have this skill. Why does it disappear when you read the Bible?
[3]Just because something doesn't make sense *to you,* doesn't mean that's so for everyone. I wonder if you'll ever understand this. It makes sense to me, including the account of Abraham. In fact, this account is particularly meaningful as it foreshadows God's sacrifice of his son. And it's not the only scripture that refutes omniscience. You could almost crack open the Bible at random...
You've gone on for three comment boxes and still not answered the question I asked. Incredible. However, as is so often the case, in struggling to avoid a direct answer, you've answered -- albeit unintentionally.
But the verses in question DO NOT qualify the "all" and "perfect" as you have qualified your statement about Barry Bonds. Nor, contrary to your claim, does the context of either verse work that qualification by implication. What you're saying is that 'all' doesn't mean all and 'perfect' doesn't mean perfect, which goes to show yet again the lengths some believers will go to try to square the circle that is their holy book.
[1]"You've gone on for three comment boxes and still not answered the question I asked."
So, when I said, "THE ANSWER IS, yes, they mean what they mean" and said specifically what they mean and why, I was avoiding? The problem is with your question, because if I can be more direct, I don't know how.
[2]My statements are only qualified with regard to Barry Bonds and carpentry, NOT TIME. Do they necessarily imply full knowledge of the future of Barry Bonds or carpentry? Please answer that question. For clarity the statements are: "I know everything about Barry Bonds." "I have perfect knowledge of carpentry."
Here's your chance to show me how to give a straight answer.
When you say you know "everything" about Barry Bonds, you don't mean you know "everything." You don't. You couldn't possibly. So you're exaggerating and don't mean what you say. It's benign exaggeration, but exaggeration nonetheless. I'm sure you don't want to say the Bible is exaggerating.
First, note how you didn't answer my question about the future.
Second, it is not necessarily exaggeration. If the discussion were about sports statistics and someone said they knew everything about Barry Bonds, it's possible that they could have memorized them all.
I do like how instead of taking a brutally narrow and literal view of my words, you attempted to understand (even though you may have assumed too much). If you did that with the Bible you wouldn't see contradictions everywhere.
"...it is not necessarily exaggeration. If the discussion were about sports statistics and someone said they knew everything about Barry Bonds, it's possible that they could have memorized them all."
But that's not the same as saying the person knows "everything" about Barry Bonds. He knows everything about Barry Bonds's sports statistics, but not everything. ...
Once again, Heyalun, if you want to say the Bible is exaggerating when it says God "knows all" and has "perfect knowledge," that's up to you. However, it seems clear that the authors meant precisely what they wrote. Had they intended to state that God's knowledge was limited, they would have made such statements. But they didn't -- your attempt to impose qualifications on them notwithstanding.
I hope you don't go through life thinking the word "all" necessarily includes all future things. Since you still haven't answered the question as to whether or not you think it does, we may never know.
What you (or at least a person that reads normally) would need from the Bible is something that says something like, "God knows all that will ever happen." If you did, we could have a real discussion and you'd have a legitimate candidate for contradiction.
"I hope you don't go through life thinking the word "all" necessarily includes all future things. Since you still haven't answered the question as to whether or not you think it does, we may never know."
It's not possible that you're this dense, Heyalun. "Knows all things" means ALL things, no exceptions -- present, past, future ... ALL.
"What you (or at least a person that reads normally) would need from the Bible is something that says something like, 'God knows all that will ever happen.'"
Because that says so much more than "God knows all things." LOL! You're a hoot.
"All students report to the principal's office." This doesn't mean present, past, and future students. It refers to current ones.
"All" at 1 Jn 3:19-24 is the same. Christians are comforted regarding the things that condemn them in their hearts because "we are doing the things pleasing in his eyes." This has nothing to do with the future. He's saying that God is aware of ALL our struggles and obedience.
Don't isolate 4 words and make a whole theology out of it. Read the context.
"'All students report to the principal's office.' This doesn't mean present, past, and future students. It refers to current ones."
While I'd like to believe you're not serious with this latest round of bullshit, sadly it seems you are. I've made my point, the Bible is clear on that point (which you muddy to save the Abraham story from incoherence), and I'm not going around and around about this. Thanks, Heyalun.
Nothing ad hominem in my comment, Heyalun. And if the use of 'bullshit' strikes you as "base," well, time to thicken up that skin of yours. You've struggled to change the meaning of clear statements about the biblical god being omniscient in order to fit your preferred take on the subject. It's unconvincing. Have the last word on this if you feel you must. By the way, it's YOU'RE welcome. Thanks again.
You're right. Calling me "dense," "not serious," "a beleiever struggling to justify my holy book," etc. for not agreeing with you is more prejudicial language than ad hominem. It's distracting logical fallacy all the same though -- as is your wont. Like my old man says, "When the facts don't favor you, appeal to emotion."
You're also right about "your." I accept the correction and will try to be more careful with my grammar.
We expect it of God, in part due to the book of Job and other instances where God allows his faithful servants to suffer, and rewards them when they maintain integrity.
Job did not understand at first, but Job's friend, Elihu, did. (Job 32-37) All the same, Job was blessed more in the end than in the beginning.
I forgot to answer the obvious question, "Why would i do a video on Byzantinechristian?" Answer: He considers himself and mystic, and has claimed to see angels and demons. A lucid schizophrenic? That's the answer i would like to discover once my computer gets fixed.
I thought it was hoes too.
SaffronSkunk 14 hours ago
The two links have been removed. She made a comment that she would rather fake a seizure than be a bridesmaid. NOT COOL. Those links haven't been removed yet.
foraminit 3 months ago
"Who are you to judge?" That always cracks me up. They don't see the irony that they too are judging, they just judge god or whatever as 'good' instead. It is still a judgement. Oh those hypocritical Christians.
cablepanos 6 months ago
You know you've heard the voice of God when you want to believe and be rewarded so bad you're willing to lie to yourself to make yourself believe and aren't willing to acknowledge the lie.
You may on a level believe others have heard too if they share your worldview, and dismiss out of hand those that don't.
You'd have to be a desperate, wretched and intellectually dishonest creature indeed.
Highlyskeptical 10 months ago
0:29 lol
Discern4 11 months ago
Here are verses that proves that hearing Yahweh's voice makes you insane:
Isaiah 20: 2-5
1 Samuel 3:4-10
r3ggi3000 1 year ago
@r3ggi3000 lol Both great passages.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
I actually do see some similarities between (at least) obsessive compulsive disorder and the "need" of many religious people to pray or attend confession. To me if religious belief is not mental disorder, it is pretty close to one.
Just saying. I am going your vids one by one right now and this is first time I disagree (somewhat).
chstoney 1 year ago
shoes are okay, hoes are better.
do0me0nice 1 year ago
Have you heard of Julian Jaynes' "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"? He theorizes that from prehistory through the early bronze age, the right hemisphere of the brain used auditory hallucinations to communicate its abstract, big-picture analysis and commands to the obedient, managerial left hemisphere.
So one possible explanation of God's voice is that *everyone* was schizophrenic in Biblical times, and their culture said the voice's name was Yahweh.
HebaruSan 1 year ago
Yeah, i think it makes sense if God's real then he would speak in some form and another.
The bible says, when someone claims they've heard from God, that we should judge/weigh/test the message they've said 1 Corinthians 14:29-32.
MatthewHudghton 1 year ago
@MatthewHudghton
The rough criteria i personally would suscribe to would be:
It shouldn't contradict anything in the Bible (The Bible being the established Word of God and of higher authroity)
It should convey and be within the confines God's character, ie. should be holy,loving.
The person delivering the message should be of trustworthy character.
also i think its reasonable to exspect confirmation to confirm it, for example 3, unrelated people giving the same message independently.
MatthewHudghton 1 year ago
@MatthewHudghton I would also add that i think some people who have claimed to hear the voice of God over the years of history will definitely be mentally ill. Not
as for the lady asking christians to complain, err i think theology she's of a differant persuasion - i wouldn't say there are any subdivisions of christians who are saints, the bible calls all christians saints, just another word for it. Some people hear the voice of God and some people are ill & need help.
MatthewHudghton 1 year ago
Excellent point about knowing whether or not a person has heard the voice of God or not.
The Christian station I listen to, and I don't mean to strawman them, says that we know it is God if it follows what God has said in the past. Of course this begs the question that if we need a standard to judge whether the word is authentic or not, then how do we know the scriptures in the canon are the apropriate scriptures.
DansLookingGlass 2 years ago
Chemical elements obey certain laws. e.g. If hydrogen is reacted with chlorine in certain amounts it will will always give you hydrochloric acids. The molecular structure of atoms will remain the same for millions of years unless ionic forces are exerted, esters can be drawn from any carboxilic acid, gases will always equally distribute themselves in any space they occupy through osmotic translations etc.Basically,don't you thinkt there's a being that created them & determined their behavoiur?
FDotAzz 3 years ago
it seems that human beings are the only creations that don't obey God or some sort of law. Do you think that the these chemical elements developed into a species all by themselves and we developed from single cell organisms to human beings with complex physical structures that evolved by themselves. Look at the eye, the most complicated organ which is formed with a pin point accuracy that you think evolved by its self. If we evolve by ourselves we're going to be flying soon you know
FDotAzz 3 years ago
This video isn't about evolution, FDotAzz. I take it that you're raising it because I mentioned how moral standards evolved over the history of our species. I've done a video on intelligent design that you would a more appropriate place for a discussion of evolution. As for the eye, it's not quite as "pin point" as you seem to believe. You might want to do a bit more reading on this topic. I have some suggestions in my video on intelligent design.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I will have a look at it and will comment on the points you raise, but I'll pray that God shows himself to you in the meanwhile because he's there and probably monitoring this conversation. I can say this because of the spiritual experiences I've had unlike toher people that might just look at scriptures and conclude without empirical evidence. Anyways, I'll give the video a look and see what you're saying in it
FDotAzz 3 years ago
God is a spiritual neing that made human beings. Now if those human beings rebel against him and start killing each other, worshipping funny ornaments and living a chaotic lifestyle, what would he do?
Would he treat them kindly? The Israelites where them only once that observed God's law and he protected them from any nation that tried to come against them.
Moral of the story: If you don't follow God's way, on God's earth don't expect things to work out for you in this life or the next
FDotAzz 3 years ago
You're just avoiding the ugly commands the Bible has Yahweh giving his devotees: go kill you son; go kill every man, woman, and child in this or that city; and so on.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
who is Yahweh, I'm confused because you won't find that anywhere in the bible I have. Maybe you read the wrong one. Are you not confusing the bible with the q'uran or book of mormon. Anyways, in my bible God says in Isaiah 55:8, "My thought are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways".
It seems like you're questioning Gods morality and his ways, maybe you should write your own bible or pray to the god that you believe in and see if he answers you.
FDotAzz 3 years ago
"who is Yahweh, I'm confused because you won't find that anywhere in the bible I have."
Oh, don't be a dolt, FDotAzz. "Yahweh" is one transliteration of the name Exodus has the biblical god use for himself (YHWH -- which, by the way, was the name of a local god worshipped in Midian where Exodus claims the biblical god revealed himself under the name). If you don't know that, you should. As for your god's ways, you judge them, too. The difference is you've concluded his killing is OK.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
You know what if God killed a million peopkle tommorrow because they disobeyed him, what could I do about it. Should I hate a being vastly superior to me,should I say he doesn't exist and block him out my head because I think he is harsh, or should I humble myself, call out to him and understand the reason why things happened.God will reveal himself to you if you look for him. I know 100% beyond reasonable doubt God exists and I wish you had the same spiritual experiences I have heard
FDotAzz 3 years ago
"You know what if God killed a million peopkle tommorrow because they disobeyed him, what could I do about it. Should I hate a being vastly superior to me...."
So, power = morality, in your opinion, FDotAzz? Might makes right? Fascinating and not at all unusual for religious believers.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
No, but being the powerful being that he is and given that he sees everything, from every point of view, I trust his judgement.
Who sets the standard of morality?
You're in denial, so go on live your life, have fun, lots of sex, get drunk, curse at people and you won't be accountable to noone. I mean, you're just flesh anyways right? So when you die God won't remind you of everything you said and it'll be the end of existance for you. Have fun, friend. Sorry I wasted your time
FDotAzz 3 years ago
"No, but being the powerful being that he is and given that he sees everything, from every point of view, I trust his judgement."
So because he is powerful, then he must be right, is that correct?
"Who sets the standard of morality?"
Check out my videos on morality. In a nutshell, those standards have developed over the course of the history of our species.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
"You're in denial, so go on live your life, have fun, lots of sex, get drunk, curse at people and you won't be accountable to no one."
LOL. Only an idiot would believe that *that* is what this is all about.
"Sorry I wasted your time."
You didn't.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
man i got to say, you are so full of crap that if i heard you say this crap in person i would slap you out of your insanity
arban12 2 years ago
i'm pretty sure you wouldn't slap me lol Having been involved in gangs and a LOT of fights I'm pretty sure I would own you. Besides, I try not to get involved in squabbles with people who aren't well educated. You haven't brought forward any arguments, all I will say to you is that God is that God is real and he spoke to me. He is powerful and when you die, I hope you will have opened your heart to him so he can show you he's real
FDotAzz 2 years ago
the truth is God does speak to people today and that is something that people can't quite get around because scientific logic eradicates anything spiritual. I myself have had numerous supernatural encounters and have heard the audible voice of God and has foretold things that have happened. Once you get baptised in the Holy Spirit you will receive a lot of spiritual encounters and a lot has happened in the last 5 months of my life. Praise God
FDotAzz 3 years ago
Well, mazel tov, FDotAzz. Whatever floats your boat. Just do yourself and your neighbors a favor: if that audible voice you believe you're hearing ever tells you to kill someone (as various biblical texts portray Yahweh doing) or anything like that, lie down and let the feeling pass.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
God is faithful, he would never tell you to kill anyone. He could tell of who to help or pray for. He could even tell me to comment on your video just to let you know he's not invisible you never know
FDotAzz 3 years ago
"God is faithful, he would never tell you to kill anyone."
So all those passages in the Bible that have God telling people to kill other people are not really God speaking?
ProfMTH 3 years ago
The wages of sin is death. If you actually bother to read the bible, you will find that the amalekites, jebusites,hittites... refused the Israelites to pass through on their journey aggressively. So God told his people to defend themselves and the underdogs prevailed. Jesus brought a new covenant, that can connect you to God himself because now that Jesus died for your sin God can overlook anything you've done.Just humble urself and ask God to reveal himself to you in the name of Jesus & he will
FDotAzz 3 years ago
Oh, you can be assured that I've not only read the Bible, FDotAzz, but I've also studied it quite closely. And I continue to do so. The biblical texts present Yahweh commanding his people to displace persons from their homes by any means necessary, up to and including slaughtering them. They are portrayed as the aggressors, not the people who were being thrown off the land. It sounds like it is you who needs to read the Bible. Good luck to you.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Firstly, whose Yahweh? Where do you find that name in the bible? Secondly, here's a clear example of when God told the Israelites to deal with wicked people trying to stopd them from making their journey:
The LORD said to Moses, "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."
FDotAzz 3 years ago
"Firstly, whose Yahweh?"
The god who introduced himself to Moses in the form of a burning bush. The god who appears throughout the collection of texts that have come to be called the Bible.
"Where do you find that name in the bible?"
Genesis 2:4-5, 7-9, 15-16, 18-19, Exodus 6:2 ... shall I go on?
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Pray and ask God to tell you. He could speak to your mind or give you a good or bad feeling in your conscience as an answer.
Advice4vice 3 years ago
How can one know wether a person has or has not heared the voice of God?
The honest to God (no pun intended) answer is that this has ALWAYS been determined by OTHER people AFTER the fact.
Most of the people who HAVE claimed to hear the auditory VOICE of God, or seen Jesus INSTANTLY thought that they had lost their minds, began to seek help, and CONSTANTLY questioned the reality of these aparitions. (St. Faustina is just one relivent example)
CazTV2000 4 years ago
As for what it's like to hear the auditory VOICE of God, as opposed to having an auditory halucination, I my self have never experienced either.
CazTV2000 4 years ago
Did Faustina question her own sanity? I didn't know that.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
She did, and often she thought she was possessed by the devil as well.
CazTV2000 4 years ago
Interesting. Ya learned me somethin' there, CazTV2000. I must confess, the whole Faustina phenomenon never sparked my interest when I was a believing, practicing Catholic. But it was impossible to ignore the phenonmenon since it was so popular in Catholic circles -- up to and including John Paul II.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
70 per cent of people report hearing voices at least once--For physical evidence of a second intelligence within yourself-Vivid Dreams onset, plus repeatable handtingles- search YouTube on LAY GNOSIS 1 BEGIN HERE site truebluehealerDOTcom--Agnostic testimonials including doctors from 4 countries. 10-12 mins gets you started.
kimbo99 4 years ago
"Repeatable handtingles," eh? What does that demonstrate?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
An intelligent question. It means a slight physical change occurrs in you that is daily confirmable. 24 hrs anytime.Meaning you cant ever doubt that something has slightly chnaged.
kimbo99 4 years ago
Heh, Sadeness. I remember when I couldn't turn on the radio for an hour without hearing that.
Eyedunno 4 years ago
whats wrong with you profmth??
MarysMyMom 4 years ago
Nothing, MarysMyMom. Why do you ask?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
now, my most excellent friend you know he wasn't saying that.
jam11432 4 years ago
I like the Noah Cross (John Huston) line from Chinatown: "Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all become respectable if they last long enough."
It's funny how many people today base their LIVES on statements uttered and recorded thousands of years ago which, if uttered today, would generate calls to 911.
GetMeThere1 4 years ago
Well said.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Old adage: One is pious that talks and prays to god, one is insane that hears god talk to them. A little odd that this is held true even by stout believers. But when you step into a world of make believe why should there be any reason?
BayerLexan 4 years ago
how observent are you, even to spot the 2 ways of reading the site name, hahahahah I have ben laughing and giggling, And i do not want to be a Saint, constantly on your knees, to something/someone that made such a mess of everything. I bet heaven has gone all wrong too,war probably thats why Jesus is taking so long to come back.there have been cases of rebellion in the angelic community, hence Satan who was the most handsome of angels.(biblically correct)What am I like hahaha.
beachfrontal 4 years ago
that is, if you believe that Shakespeare and Einstein and Joan of Arc and Hendrix really will be engaged in a friendly game of poker and or Euchre in the back room of the world we enter when we pass through the pearly (or is it golden) gates of heaven... or if you believe in heaven at all
jenesisdesigns 4 years ago
I don't believe in heaven. Nevertheless, thanks for taking the time to comment.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
You're welcome... even if this whole thing did start off with a late night (drunken?)search for lovin some hoes :)
Excellent piece and conversation starter, on many levels
jenesisdesigns 4 years ago
LOL.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
but on that note, it must be said that, since the introduction of psychotrophic drugs its not just the Catholic church that has suffered from finding "Saints". The quality of artists, philosophers, musicians, writers of all walks of lives has diminished. Honestly, when we make it to heaven, and they ask which era we are from, do you think Shakespeare and Socrates and the likes will cover there mouths as they stifle a laugh when we say "late 20th, early 21st century"??!
jenesisdesigns 4 years ago
I don't believe Joy was saying that the Saints were mentally ill. I saw the originaly episode, and stay firm to my belief she was saying that its impossible to know this day because people who "hear voices" are automatically diagnosed as having a disease, and that psychosis is treated with drugs that make them zombi--- uh, I mean, "numb" (as many, many people I've met describe the feeling of being on even mild antidepressants)...
jenesisdesigns 4 years ago
Anyone that hears voice regardless of being an atheists or theists should go get a CAT scan, when all is said and done, god does not speak threw tumors.
sweatytoothmadman 4 years ago
You said u offerred a retraction and then when I suggest it u give a sarcastic reply; I think u are by far happier in a world I know nothing about, and I love the one I know..perhaps one day you will see the light.......God bless you, yes...God!
iloveshoesdoyou 4 years ago
iloveshoesdoyou, I've read all the comments that you've made so far in this video and I for one don't understand what you mean; I think it's likely that ProfMTH doesn't either.
ProfMTH is a very reasonable person. Perhaps you could explain things more carefully?
fragglet 4 years ago
I'm not all sure what she's asking me to retract, but she seems unwilling or unable to explain. No matter. She seems like a very nice woman.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Love this video.
Very good points made.
Religion is always a very tricky topic!
pierz1981 4 years ago
Tricky indeed. Thanks very much, Pierz.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
ProfMTH,
Prophets have signs that accompany their message. If you're 100 and your wife is 90 and angels tell you you'll have a baby and you have one when they say so then that's proof. (Gen 21:2)
The view of supernatural messages is cultural. Remember randyhelzerman's resurrection vid. No one in the community questioned the father allowing his daughter to die. They don't doubt the supernatural because they live it.
heyalun 4 years ago
So if one of your fellow believers came to you saying that God had instructed her to take her son to a particular place and kill him as a sign of her faith, you'd hang out and wait to see whether any signs accompanied the message, Heyalun?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Why would they tell me? Notice that Abraham withheld this knowledge from everyone. (Gen 22:5-8) After the fact the angel called out from the heavens so that Isaac heard. (Gen 22:11) He would have definitely seen the ram that Abraham said God would provide. (Gen 22:13) And Isaac's birth was miraculous. Abraham was already confirmed. There was no reason to doubt him.
heyalun 4 years ago
Perhaps God would tell the person to tell you. Don't wiggle around the question, Heyalun. If you don't want to answer it, just say so.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
I never wiggle. :)
Has my fellow believer given me an accurate prophecy regarding the birth of her son at 90+ years of age, do angels visit her, and do I find out after the fact that God told her to kill her son, but then stopped her and her son heard the angel and that God provided an animal for them in harmony with my sister's prophecy?
If yes, I would think something supernatural was going on.
heyalun 4 years ago
I've got news for you: you definitely wiggle. ;-)
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Without any more information, my answer to your question would be, "It depends." I'm not wiggling, you just don't give enough information for me to answer.
heyalun 4 years ago
"Without any more information, my answer...would be, "It depends."
Let's say one day you wake up & you meet an angel. You don't know how, but you know absolutely that it's an angel sent by god (call it a faith feeling). He tells you to kill your (any loved one) as a sign of faith. Do you do it without hesitation or question?
Deadman3913 4 years ago
Deadman3913,
I don't think that's a valid question because Jehovah doesn't behave that way. It's not analogous to the account of Abraham. He had assurance that God would "raise [Isaac] up even from the dead." (Hebrews 11:18, 19) So he didn't just "wake up & meet an angel." There was a longstanding relationship involving angels coming to him.
And I don't know what a "faith feeling" is.
heyalun 4 years ago
Ah, the revisionist reading of the Abraham story by the writer to the Hebrews: it's OK that Abraham tramped off to the mountain to kill his son at God's directive because God wasn't really going to let the kid die; he would have raised him from the dead. A Jello-like wiggle, Heyalun.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
If you are going to assume that the Bible is God's word for the sake of argument, then you can't say it's not when I try to use it to answer your question. YOU'RE the one wiggling by moving the goalpost.
Hebrews is not revisionist because Abraham has a promise from God that his seed will be through Isaac. That can't happen if he's dead. So as he's going off to kill him he tells his servants, "I and the boy want to go over there and worship AND RETURN TO YOU." (Gen 21:12; 22:5)
heyalun 4 years ago
Do you notice a pattern of you accusing me of being dishonest, ProfMTH? Why is that? You ask biblical questions and when I try to explain my view I'm always dishonest somehow.
heyalun 4 years ago
I didn't call you dishonest, Heyalun. I said you were wiggling on the direct question I asked you about what you would do if you encountered someone who told you she had been directed by God to kill her child. I didn't think you were being dishonest; I merely thought you, quite understandably, wanted to avoid answering the question, as you did.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Did I say I was assuming the Bible was God's word for the sake of argument? Not here. Later authors of texts that were put in the Bible filled in some of the blanks, helped earlier stories to make more sense. The writer to the Hebrews re God's direction to Abraham to kill Isaac is such a case. The Genesis passage you quote can be understood in context as Abraham not wanting to say what he was about to do. Those travelling with him might have thought him nuts and tried to stop him.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
If you ask questions that don't make sense or that are based on a false premise, I'm not wiggling to point that out. To insist that I am when I say I'm not implies dishonesty.
ProfMTH do you still abuse babies?! Answer yes or no and don't wiggle?
OK, you're not assuming it's God's word but you are arguing from the standpoint that these things really happened. You can't then be selective when I do the same.
heyalun 4 years ago
Isaac was born at the exact time these angels told Abraham, then he is promised that this child would provide a great deal of progeny for him, but that he should kill him first. Why would he doubt that this boy would be revitalized when his childless, 90 yr old wife's womb was revitalized to produce him?
Hebrews doesn't revise in light of that and the longstanding relationship Abraham had with God. (Heb 11:8-12, 17-19)
heyalun 4 years ago
"OK, you're not assuming it's God's word but you are arguing from the standpoint that these things really happened."
Actually, Heyalun, I'm not even doing that. I take them as stories and deal with events in the narrative.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
"I don't think that's a valid question because Jehovah doesn't behave that way."
How can you claim to know how god thinks? Its god, a being infinitely beyond human understanding. This being so, god can do whatever god wants. So I feel its a valid & direct question. BTW, I asked if YOU woke up & met an angel, not abraham. Let's put it this way, then: Are YOU willing to do ANYTHING your god commands you to do?
Deadman3913 4 years ago
[1]God tells us what he thinks. Christianity has patterns, like a puzzle. Imagine you have a fairly complete puzzle of a beautiful field of daisies. If someone hands you pieces that are the moon's surface, you know they don't fit. So we're told: "Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed. (Galations 1:8)
heyalun 4 years ago
[2]So even an angel can't contradict this "pattern of healthful words." (1 Timothy 1:13) If he does, it's not from God. God just does not behave the way your question implies. So I disagree that it's valid.
"Are YOU willing to do ANYTHING your god commands you to do?"
Without hesitation...just like Abraham.
heyalun 4 years ago
"Without hesitation...just like Abraham."
So if God told you to kill your child, you'd do it, would you, Heyalun?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Yes.
Would you?
heyalun 4 years ago
If I heard a voice telling me to kill my child, I should hope I'd have the presence of mind to seek medical assistance immediately. And if I lacked said presence of mind, I hope there's someone nearby who has it.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
You didn't say "a voice" you said "God." If you don't want to answer the question, just say so. Don't wiggle, Jello Boy. :)
heyalun 4 years ago
No matter whose voice. I wasn't wiggling, Heyalun, I was being comprehensive. You'd do well to learn the difference. ;-)
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Why would you seek medical attention if God spoke to you?
heyalun 4 years ago
Oh, I don't know ... because there is no God. That seems as good a reason as any. And even if there were a God and he was in the business of telling people to kill children, I wouldn't be much interested in what he had to say.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
You asked me a hypothetical question that you won't answer straight?! Is the answer yes or no? Keep in mind that this is the Almighty God who holds your life and that of you child in his hands. If you don't want to answer, I understand.
heyalun 4 years ago
"You asked me a hypothetical question that you won't answer straight?!"
I did answer, and unequivocally. *Now* you're being dishonest.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Not just *now*, but always! Apparently your world is a lot more comfortable if you can paint me a liar. Unfortunate.
I guess I'll have to interpret "I wouldn't be much interested in what he had to say" as "no." I actually wouldn't believe you if gave the smart answer of "yes." The scriptures and my experience tell me clearly that neither belief, morbid fear, nor desire for everlasting life can move one to obey God.
heyalun 4 years ago
Well, Heyalun, it must make you feel better to try to convince yourself that I always "paint [you] a liar," even though it's not true. I'm not going to waste my time with such nonsense, so either step up the game or don't bother posting. This isn't a complaint department, much less a false complaint department. Thanks.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
"Always" may be an exaggeration, but it was not just a complaint. I find that I often feel you're dishonest - and not just you, but a lot of people who disagree with me. It's human.
Knowing that, I try to force myself to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm saying, give me a break. I've never been deceitful in my comments to you.
heyalun 4 years ago
Perhaps "it's human" for you to feel those with whom you disagree are often dishonest. It's not my deal. If I think you're being dishonest, I say so; if I think you're avoiding a question, I say so; if I think you're nibbling the edges rather than dealing with a central issue, I say so. In sum, I have no trouble telling you precisely what I think about things, and not once have I even suggested that you're always or mostly dishonest. TIME TO MOVE ON! ;-)
ProfMTH 4 years ago
"Imagine you have a fairly complete puzzle of a beautiful field of daisies."
Was abraham equally unsurprised by the deed he was commanded to do? Was its significance equivalent to an errand to buy a loaf of bread? Was his response blase?
Deadman3913 4 years ago
We are not told of Abraham's surprise or lack thereof. We just know he obeyed even though it was difficult because of his love for isaac. I don't quite get your point about bread. This event was of great significance though. It was connected to the promise of a seed by means of which the whole world would be blessed. (Genesis 22:18)
heyalun 4 years ago
"We just know he obeyed even though it was difficult because of his love for isaac."
If, as the writer to the Hebrews claimed, Abraham knew God would raise Isaac from the dead, how difficult could it have been for Abraham? Didn't he truly believe Isaac would be raised from the dead?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Note how when the hypothetical situation you proposed above is applied to you, you chose to disobey God even though you knew it was him speaking to you.
Belief does not equate to ease of obedience. The scriptures (and current times, for that matter) are full of people that believe or talk to God, but reject him. This is why God rewarded Abraham abundantly and why the faithful are called his "sons." (Gal 3:7)
heyalun 4 years ago
So the knowledge that God would raise Isaac from the dead, which the writer to the Hebrews indicates made it possible for Abraham to do what he did, wasn't truly a substantial factor?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
That knowledge was a substantial factor.
Why did you choose disobedience to God in the hypothetical situation even though you had knowledge that he was God?
heyalun 4 years ago
If "that knowledge was a substantial factor," why would Abraham have found doing what God instructed him to do to be so difficult? Interestingly enough, Genesis doesn't indicate that Abraham struggled at all about this. Quite the opposite.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Heyalun: "Why did you choose disobedience to God in the hypothetical situation even though you had knowledge that he was God?"
Asked and answered. I told you: I have no interest in dealing with a god who commands the killing of children.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
[1]ProfMTH, If you want to press the issue then I can't really be dogmatic about it, because the scriptures don't describe his feelings about what he was going to do. What we do know is that God referred to Isaac as "the only son who [Abraham] so love[d]" and "[his only one]" and said his willingness to sacrifice proved that he was God-fearing and praised and blessed him for it. (Ge 22:2, 12, 15-18)
heyalun 4 years ago
[2]So I'm deducing that it was not an easy task, because the account doesn't make sense if it was.
I'm also assuming that since Abraham was not a sociopath, binding his son, putting him on an altar, and killing him would be hard even thinking he'd be resurrected.
He could have displayed the same attitude you do and said, "Forget that! I'm not dealing with this God."
heyalun 4 years ago
"He could have displayed the same attitude you do and said, 'Forget that! I'm not dealing with this God.'"
Well, that wouldn't have made for much of a story to put in a holy book, now would it have?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
It wouldn't be a story for a book of fairy tales, but the Bible is brutally frank about the flaws and failures God's creatures. If he had made this decision, he would not have been the first or the last (e.g. Satan, Adam, Cain, Korah, Balaam, Solomon, Asa, Judas).
heyalun 4 years ago
"So the knowledge that God would raise Isaac from the dead,"
Doesn't that take away from the whole "sacrifice" concept. If he had such knowledge, then he wouldn't feel he would be losing anything at all. So what would be the big deal?
Deadman3913 4 years ago
Another good point, Deadman. The holes in the story remind one of a piece of Swiss cheese.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Your concept of sacrifice may be different from the Judeo-Christian one. Everything belongs to Jehovah already. You can't give him anything except joy. (Proverbs 27:11) Sacrifice is a demonstration of love and trust, but it's always short-term loss and long-term gain. (Malachi 3:10) Think about a mother who is willing to deal with pregnancy and labor because she is rewarded with a beautiful baby. (John 16:21)
heyalun 4 years ago
"Everything belongs to Jehovah already. You can't give him anything except joy. (Proverbs 27:11)"
Joy doesn't belong to Jehovah?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Yeah, he is the happy God. (1 Ti 1:11) I wasn't implying he didn't have joy, but that we can increase it.
heyalun 4 years ago
"I wasn't implying he didn't have joy, but that we can increase it."
How can you add to infinity?
"Think about a mother who is willing to deal with pregnancy..."
Child bearing is not the sacrifice part; it is painful & risky, but nothing is given up. Raising a child, there in lies the sacrifice. Much is given up to raise a person who is just as likely to hate you as he or she is love you. Its a 50/50 crap shoot. That's sacrifice.
Deadman3913 4 years ago
"How can you add to infinity?"
I don't understand your question, unless you're implying that God is "infinitely joyous." If so, I don't even know what that means, let alone believe it to be true. From a Biblical perspective God can be pleased or saddened by our actions.
"Raising a child, there in lies the sacrifice."
OK. Let's go with your scenario if you don't consider the pain and risk of pregnancy and birth to be sacrifice.
heyalun 4 years ago
"God can be pleased or saddened by our actions."
So he's not the same yesterday, today, and forever? He changes, like being joyous one minute and sad the next, pleased at one moment and angry at another?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
"So he's not the same yesterday, today, and forever? He changes, like being joyous one minute and sad the next, pleased at one moment and angry at another?"
God is extremely versatile and responsive, having thoughts and feelings that run deeper than our own. The scriptures you refer to have to do with his personality, his qualities, his word, his standards.
heyalun 4 years ago
"God is extremely versatile and responsive, having thoughts and feelings that run deeper than our own."
That description, which is akin to that of human behavior, is inconsistent with a being of omniscience. Responsive implies reaction to surprising events. Since god supposedly knows all & sees all, then all is present & nothing is a surprise. There is nothing to react to nor is there a logical reason to consider god responsive.
Deadman3913 4 years ago
"God is extremely versatile and responsive...."
Phrase it however you'd like, Heyalun. What you're saying is that God is *not* the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changes, he responds, he is angered and saddened, made happy and ... well, it's starting to sound like he's got a very human behavior pattern. Interesting.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
"unless you're implying that God is "infinitely joyous." If so, I don't even know what that means"
Maybe you should ask other x-ians then; they're the ones who keep telling me that god is full of infinite love, joy, & compassion.
Deadman3913 4 years ago
"akin to that of human behavior"
It's the other way around.
"Since god supposedly knows all & sees all, then all is present & nothing is a surprise."
As indicated with the account of Abraham, he's selective with what he sees. Otherwise there would be no free will.
"they're the ones who keep telling me that god is full of infinite love, joy, & compassion"
I've never heard that, nor do I believe it.
heyalun 4 years ago
"akin to that of human behavior"
"It's the other way around."
So god is the impulsive, moody one prone to emotional outbreaks often resulting in unintended pain & suffering & we're the omniscient beings?
Deadman3913 4 years ago
"he's selective with what he sees. Otherwise there would be no free will."
That's the most inane claim I've ever heard said about an omniscient being. An action like that is like me making a movie, then pretending I have never seen it & blaming the actors for choosing such shocking outcomes in the story. Basically, god is a liar & enjoys being angry at & beating his kids.
Deadman3913 4 years ago
Heyalun "[God is] selective with what he sees. Otherwise there would be no free will."
Deadman "That's the most inane claim I've ever heard said about an omniscient being. An action like that is like me making a movie, then pretending I have never seen it & blaming the actors for choosing such shocking outcomes in the story."
An excellent analogy, Deadman. Excellent.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
[1]Here's the problem with the way you two are thinking about God: *Man was made in God's image.* (Genesis 1:26) We have feelings because he has them. We are made to understand and relate to him on some level, so he's not *completely* incomprehensible and mysterious. If you see a friend after a long time and you say, "You haven't changed," you're not saying they were in suspended animation.
heyalun 4 years ago
[2]You're talking about qualities. The meaning is the same with regard to God. The scripture at Hebrews 13:8 that says Jesus is the same *can't* mean he's absolutely unchanged because he was sent to Earth, died, was resurrected, and restored to heaven. Verse 9 says don't accept different teachings. Why? Because Jesus hasn't changed, so we shouldn't take on new and heretical beliefs.
Context, context, context.
heyalun 4 years ago
[3]If "omniscient" (this word is not in the Bible) includes knowing everything in the future, then God is not that. He is fully aware of everything that's happening and can see events ahead of time. That does not mean that he knows every single detail of the future though. If so, how could he say "NOW I do know that you are God-fearing" to Abraham?
heyalun 4 years ago
[4]"Where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom." (2 Corinthians 3:17) In harmony with this he freely gives his creatures authority and power. So he gave humans dominion over the earth and its creatures. There are guidelines, but also latitude for expression. The punishment is for abuse of power, not for doing something God scripted -- that wouldn't mesh with his personality or make sense biblically.
heyalun 4 years ago
Wow, Heyalun, I'm sort of amazed that you're saying you don't believe God is omniscient. So God is *not* "perfect in knowledge" then (Job 37:16), and God doesn't "know all things" (1 John 3:20), contrary to what the Bible says, is that correct?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
I'm glad I amaze you!
Again, look at the context. Job is talking about "the wonderful works of the One perfect in knowledge." In other words, 'he knows how to do everything and he does it magnificently.'
1 John 3:19-24 is talking about God's familiarity with his servant's actions and what's in their hearts.
Neither of these says anything about him knowing every detail of everything that ever will happen.
heyalun 4 years ago
So "knows all things" doesn't mean "know all things" and "perfect in knowledge" doesn't mean "perfect in knowledge," correct, Heyalun? LOL!
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Words don't have understandable meaning without context. If I type the word "gravity" what is my meaning? What information am I conveying to you? You don't really know, because it lacks context. I could be talking about planetary orbits, the far-reaching effects of the caucus, or an endless number of things. The Bible is not different in this regard. If you want to know meaning, use context. What do you think these words mean and why? What is the surrounding text discussing?
heyalun 4 years ago
When I read that God "knows all things," I -- unlike you, apparently -- don't have any trouble understanding what it means. The same goes for the term 'perfect knowledge'. Quibble all you want, but in your effort to have the text of the Abraham story make sense -- a forlorn project, if ever there was one -- you've denied what your scriptures clearly teach, i.e., that the biblical god is omniscient.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
So please just answer the question you were asked, Heyalun: "knows all things" doesn't mean "know all things" and "perfect in knowledge" doesn't mean "perfect in knowledge," correct?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
[1]ProfMTH, the trouble is that you don't know how to use context. I already answered the question as to what these words mean and your latest question is nonsensical. The answer is, yes, they mean what they mean. Now, does that tell you anything?
These phrases don't necessarily connote anything about the future. If I say I "know everything" about Barry Bonds, does that mean I know his future?
heyalun 4 years ago
[2]If I say I have "perfect knowledge" of carpentry, does that mean I'm familiar with the frame of every structure that ever was and ever will be? It might, but what you have to do is ask me or use your knowledge of me and the context of my statements to figure it out.
I feel silly trying to tell you how to use context. I know you have this skill. Why does it disappear when you read the Bible?
heyalun 4 years ago
[3]Just because something doesn't make sense *to you,* doesn't mean that's so for everyone. I wonder if you'll ever understand this. It makes sense to me, including the account of Abraham. In fact, this account is particularly meaningful as it foreshadows God's sacrifice of his son. And it's not the only scripture that refutes omniscience. You could almost crack open the Bible at random...
heyalun 4 years ago
You've gone on for three comment boxes and still not answered the question I asked. Incredible. However, as is so often the case, in struggling to avoid a direct answer, you've answered -- albeit unintentionally.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
But the verses in question DO NOT qualify the "all" and "perfect" as you have qualified your statement about Barry Bonds. Nor, contrary to your claim, does the context of either verse work that qualification by implication. What you're saying is that 'all' doesn't mean all and 'perfect' doesn't mean perfect, which goes to show yet again the lengths some believers will go to try to square the circle that is their holy book.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
[1]"You've gone on for three comment boxes and still not answered the question I asked."
So, when I said, "THE ANSWER IS, yes, they mean what they mean" and said specifically what they mean and why, I was avoiding? The problem is with your question, because if I can be more direct, I don't know how.
heyalun 4 years ago
[2]My statements are only qualified with regard to Barry Bonds and carpentry, NOT TIME. Do they necessarily imply full knowledge of the future of Barry Bonds or carpentry? Please answer that question. For clarity the statements are: "I know everything about Barry Bonds." "I have perfect knowledge of carpentry."
Here's your chance to show me how to give a straight answer.
heyalun 4 years ago
When you say you know "everything" about Barry Bonds, you don't mean you know "everything." You don't. You couldn't possibly. So you're exaggerating and don't mean what you say. It's benign exaggeration, but exaggeration nonetheless. I'm sure you don't want to say the Bible is exaggerating.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
First, note how you didn't answer my question about the future.
Second, it is not necessarily exaggeration. If the discussion were about sports statistics and someone said they knew everything about Barry Bonds, it's possible that they could have memorized them all.
I do like how instead of taking a brutally narrow and literal view of my words, you attempted to understand (even though you may have assumed too much). If you did that with the Bible you wouldn't see contradictions everywhere.
heyalun 4 years ago
"...it is not necessarily exaggeration. If the discussion were about sports statistics and someone said they knew everything about Barry Bonds, it's possible that they could have memorized them all."
But that's not the same as saying the person knows "everything" about Barry Bonds. He knows everything about Barry Bonds's sports statistics, but not everything. ...
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Once again, Heyalun, if you want to say the Bible is exaggerating when it says God "knows all" and has "perfect knowledge," that's up to you. However, it seems clear that the authors meant precisely what they wrote. Had they intended to state that God's knowledge was limited, they would have made such statements. But they didn't -- your attempt to impose qualifications on them notwithstanding.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
I hope you don't go through life thinking the word "all" necessarily includes all future things. Since you still haven't answered the question as to whether or not you think it does, we may never know.
What you (or at least a person that reads normally) would need from the Bible is something that says something like, "God knows all that will ever happen." If you did, we could have a real discussion and you'd have a legitimate candidate for contradiction.
heyalun 4 years ago
"I hope you don't go through life thinking the word "all" necessarily includes all future things. Since you still haven't answered the question as to whether or not you think it does, we may never know."
It's not possible that you're this dense, Heyalun. "Knows all things" means ALL things, no exceptions -- present, past, future ... ALL.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
"What you (or at least a person that reads normally) would need from the Bible is something that says something like, 'God knows all that will ever happen.'"
Because that says so much more than "God knows all things." LOL! You're a hoot.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
"All students report to the principal's office." This doesn't mean present, past, and future students. It refers to current ones.
"All" at 1 Jn 3:19-24 is the same. Christians are comforted regarding the things that condemn them in their hearts because "we are doing the things pleasing in his eyes." This has nothing to do with the future. He's saying that God is aware of ALL our struggles and obedience.
Don't isolate 4 words and make a whole theology out of it. Read the context.
heyalun 4 years ago
Cosmologist: "ALL THINGS are a part of an expanding universe."
I thought this might make it clearer. The scientist that says this is not talking about future things.
heyalun 4 years ago
"'All students report to the principal's office.' This doesn't mean present, past, and future students. It refers to current ones."
While I'd like to believe you're not serious with this latest round of bullshit, sadly it seems you are. I've made my point, the Bible is clear on that point (which you muddy to save the Abraham story from incoherence), and I'm not going around and around about this. Thanks, Heyalun.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
It's reductio ad absurdum, ProfMTH. If my derivation of your argument is absurd, then so is your argument.
And you can "like to believe" what you please, but neither that, nor your base rhetoric and ad hominem, change meaning and context.
Your welcome.
heyalun 4 years ago
Nothing ad hominem in my comment, Heyalun. And if the use of 'bullshit' strikes you as "base," well, time to thicken up that skin of yours. You've struggled to change the meaning of clear statements about the biblical god being omniscient in order to fit your preferred take on the subject. It's unconvincing. Have the last word on this if you feel you must. By the way, it's YOU'RE welcome. Thanks again.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
You're right. Calling me "dense," "not serious," "a beleiever struggling to justify my holy book," etc. for not agreeing with you is more prejudicial language than ad hominem. It's distracting logical fallacy all the same though -- as is your wont. Like my old man says, "When the facts don't favor you, appeal to emotion."
You're also right about "your." I accept the correction and will try to be more careful with my grammar.
heyalun 4 years ago
"Imagine you have a fairly complete puzzle of a beautiful field of daisies."
So was what happened to job behavior expected of god? Was job absolutely sure of what was happening to him & why?
Deadman3913 4 years ago
We expect it of God, in part due to the book of Job and other instances where God allows his faithful servants to suffer, and rewards them when they maintain integrity.
Job did not understand at first, but Job's friend, Elihu, did. (Job 32-37) All the same, Job was blessed more in the end than in the beginning.
heyalun 4 years ago
Of course some of the people who claim to hear the voice of "god" or some other supernatural being are just liars.
I think people like Pat Robertson and some other televangelists are examples of that type.
Rorshak1313 4 years ago
Indeed, some *are* just liars.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
I forgot to answer the obvious question, "Why would i do a video on Byzantinechristian?" Answer: He considers himself and mystic, and has claimed to see angels and demons. A lucid schizophrenic? That's the answer i would like to discover once my computer gets fixed.
CharlieDevilDog 4 years ago
Sorry to hear your computer is on the fritz, CharlieDevilDog. I tagged you for the 5 fun/useless facts thing. I guess you won't be able to respond.
ProfMTH 4 years ago
I got your tag, if my computer is back up within the week then i will respond
Captaininfidel 4 years ago
Great!
ProfMTH 4 years ago