As far as mma goes there really isn't any amateur circuit to compete in. I used to tell guys that they needed to start by competing in grappling tournaments for a while so that they could get comp.experience in a fairly safe environment. This used to weed out most of the fakers who like the idea of competing and eventually fighting mma but disliked the reality of actually training for it. If they couldn't mentally handle the pressure of a grappling tournament even thinking about mma was out.
@Johnl1800 You say you laugh now when you think back on how you used to think, "All athletes today are better, the boxers of the past would get destroyed today, why would every sport improve except boxing? etc."
Why is that? The Klitschko's may not be beautiful or well rounded, but I can't see the fighters who were beating them. I think HW got so technical, it's boring. Do you think Ali and Louis could beat them? I think the Klitschko's would be hitting them with jabs all night long.
As far as even trying by turning pro, you can tell right away some guys just don't have it(physically or mentally) and shouldn't bother. In boxing today if you don't have a solid amateur background you'll never make it. The days where you could turn pro at 18 and spend years learning your trade competing in 4, 6, and 8 round preliminary fights are long over since there just aren't enough active boxers or fights being held anymore to go that route.
@Johnl1800 "As far as even trying by turning pro, you can tell right away some guys just don't have it(physically or mentally) and shouldn't bother. In boxing today if you don't have a solid amateur background you'll never make it. The days where you could turn pro at 18 and spend years learning your trade competing in 4, 6, and 8 round preliminary fights are long over since there just aren't enough active boxers or fights being held anymore to go that route."
Multiple titles in each div. makes it too easy for the top guys to avoid fighting each other since the sanctioning bodies won't rate the other title holders. For arguments sake lets say Mann Pac. is the 1 ww champ and Mayweather and Berto fight in a 12 rd elimination fight for the next shot. Do you think that they'll make less money or that the fans will have less interest because some bs title isn't at stake? Fans want to see the best vs. the best, the current system does more harm than good.
@Johnl1800 Point is, the multiple belts are a good thing for money and fighters. It gives rising stars much more opportunity and gives more main events. And again, it's just good to go after the #1 guy. Donaire beat the #1 Flyweight (Darchinyan) and moved on. He beat the #1 Bantamweight (Montiel) and moved on.
For all u evolutionists... Boxing is man v man, its not a sport played with a ball with multiple players and dozens of plays. Two men in a square ring stripped almost naked with boxing gloves on. Up until about '50 boxing and baseball were the only sports for kids to do.Watch Benny Leonard and Gene Tunney and then tell me that boxing has "evolved" The ONLY thing better today are the cameras.
@1899sharkey "The ONLY thing better today are the cameras."
People don't realize what a big difference that makes. I remember watching old films when I was kid and not being too impressed. Several decades later (and quite a bit more knowledgeable) I had the chance to see some of the same films with the speed corrected and the picture stabilized and cleaned up and it was like night and day. I went from saying "Those guys sucked" to "Wow those guys were really good!"
I'd have to say Lewis was a much better fighter than Vitaly imo. Lewis fought the better opposition and beat them all. He looked better doing it too. A sluggish Lewis still was able to beat Vitaly at his best. A lot of people claim Vitaly would have won that fight if it weren't stopped on cuts. But watch again and you'll see Vitaly was a shot fighter the last couple rounds of that fight and Lewis was getting better. Vitaly put up more of a fight AFTER the fight was called off than the last rd.
@bandit7498 Better opposition? Who did he fight that was better? Yes, he has Tyson's name, but this was a horribly shallow Tyson. Both Klitschko's would beat him at this point. Wouldn't say Vitali was at his best when he fought Lewis. He took the fight on 8 days notice. He also spent his 20s in kickboxing and was pretty new to pro boxing. Both Vitali and Lennox looked spent. That wasn't a normal cut, after Lennox saw it, he bashed Vitali's eye at every chance he got. Lennox got pretty dirty.
@crowley0312 Are you kidding? Look at Lewis' resume. ANY of the fighters he defended against would have slaughtered the bumbs that Vitaly and Wlad have been facing the past 7 years. New to boxing you say? He'd been fighting proffessional since '96 when he faced Lewis. Who did Lewis fight? Well, who DIDN'T he fight? Briggs (a better, younger Briggs) Mercer, Morrison, Holyfield, Akinwande, Golota, Tua, (a prime Tua) Bruno, Rahman, McCall, Tucker, Razor Ruddock. Where's the comparison?
@bandit7498 I'm not denying that Lewis fought good fighters, but what makes his fighters better than the Klitschko's? They've had more time in people's mind's and have a better image. That's the main reason why, Lewis' and the Klitschko's opponents are mostly on par. You say his opponents would slaughter Vitali's. That's just stupid. An old "the previous generation would destroy this one's" cliche. Really, what make's 10 year older fighter's better? Technically, newer boxers are better because
@bandit7498 he is. But after Tyson, Lewis was really unactive. During that time, Wladimir was the #1 contender until he fought Sanders. So if Lewis didn't want to fight Wlad, it's hard to say. Right now, Lewis is better than Wladimir. But Steward says we haven't seen Wladimir's potential yet.
@crowley0312 Of course Tyson and Holyfield were better known to the casual fan. That's a given. Won't even discuss that comment. My point was foreign fighters have historically still been able to acheive a wide American audience if they're good enough, and if they're fighting the best out there. Since they won't fight each other it can be said they are both ducking the best out there and they hide behind the fact that they're brothers. There needs to be one heavyweight champion.
@bandit7498 Wouldn't say all foreign fighters can. Mexicans can achieve fame in the US because there are so many Mexican fighters. Most people didn't even know where the Ukraine was before the Klitschko's. They've diffenitly paved the way for other Ukraines, at least.
Technicaly what you say can be said about all champions. Anyways, Wladimir isn't even signed with the WBC. He in't in their rankings. So he's ducking no one. You might as well say everyone who isn't holding ll the belts is
@crowley0312 Historically if you go back 20, 30 years, other weight classes can thrive on creating rivalries between several champs in a weight class, but the heavies cannot. Before Tyson when there were 3 champs, heavyweight boxing was in the slumps, even though Holmes was still active and the real champ. Tyson unified the belts and heavyweight boxing thrived again. If Wlad or Vitaly cared about boxing one of them should retire now OR they should fight.
@bandit7498 disgracing the sport. And again, you most likely have never stepped in a ring. This is a serious sport that people die in. The Klitschko's will never fight eachother outside an exhibition. Nothing wrong with Holmes' era. He, like the Klitschko's, was just a dominante force, so people chose to downsize his opponents. If someone can retain the title 20 times = Must be weak competition. I swear, some boxing "fans" are just plain freaking terrible.
@crowley0312 And to say heavyweights are better now than 10 years ago, please. When Chris Arreola is among the best America has to offer for the big boys then it's a sad day for boxing. By that virtue today's contenders would easily beat out the Golden Era heavies of the late 60s and early 70s. I believe you'll find it very difficult to find supporters on that. Fighting ain't like football or basketball. It's a lot more mentally involved than other sports. They were better back then
@bandit7498 Arreola's good. He might be in charge if it wasn't for the Klitschko's. And don't come at me with that "Golden Age" shit. I never take anyone serious who calls the 60s-70s Golden Age. They were EXCITING, not nesscisarily the BEST. I don't understand how the sport could climb up, and than suddenly stock market crash. Whoever said HW is "dead" is an asshole. When something's dead, it's gone forever. 98% of people who insult the HW have never seen one modern HW fight :) So this "dead"
@crowley0312 Wow, you just showed what a punk you are, can't even have a simple debate without resulting to insults. So if that's how you wanna talk, so be it. I never said hw boxing was dead moron. But it's all but irrelevent in the states compared to the other weights today. And as far as rather or not I've fought before, you don't fucking know me chump. You're a 26 yr old punk ass kid who doesn't even know the proper way to wipe his ass yet. Bitch I've forgotten more than u know
@bandit7498 I was reffering to boxing fans in general when I said Some boxing "fans" are terrible, not you directly. Not sure where else I insulted you, but I apoligize if I did because I didn't mean to.
The "Golden Age" thing gives a very close-minded perspective to fans. What is it about fighters from this specific time that makes them great? Why is it logicaly, phisicaly and mentaly impossible for fighters to come close to them? Will they be the best 100 years later? Probaly not.
@crowley0312 What made that era so special was the willingness of damn near all the fighters of that era to face the other top fighters of their time to prove they were the best. There was something about those guys that was different in the respect that they weren't as afraid to put it all on the line as the heavies, or any weight for that matter, of today are. Not to mention they were 15 round fighters and their conditioning was better back then.
@bandit7498 Umm, ok. See, people are willing to fight other top fighters today though. You know, retaining their title? Just goes to show how overrated the era is. Everyone was a slugger except for Norton and Ali. Again, EXCITING, but not exactly the best. Most fighters train to go 15-30 rounds. Just because they don't have that many rounds doesn't mean they couldn't go that long. But again, you've clearly never been in a ring, so I don't except you to understand.
@crowley0312 Seriously dude, get off my dick. Bitch, I've climbed through the ropes more than you could dream of, but why the fuck would I get up here and talk about that when EVERY fucking moron (like yourself) that gets on here commenting on a boxing video claims to be a boxer. You go ahead and think what the fuck you want dillweed. really, you're in the minority with your thinking and the shit you spew from your cum dumpster is laughable.
@crowley0312 Look at the guys today. Mostly a bunch of fat asses. Samuel Peter? Areola? Niether of those guys have the conditioning OR the will to lay it all out like Ali or Frazier would have. And as far as heavies goes, the amateur scene is sorely lacking in luster. That's where it all begins. All the good heavyweights today are playing football. It's a lot easier than boxing and they get an education to boot. When I watch a heavyweight fight today I'm nearly bored to tears.
@bandit7498 They build muscle on top of fat. Lots of football players do that, like linemen. If you took an original HW and put him in this era, he'd get pushed and knocked all over the place. Your football theory is false. Football is more popular, but that says nothing about who has better athletes. Most football players couldn't be boxers if they wanted to be. It's completly different. I personally think ALL HWs are boring. But that's a pathetic excuse to deny their talent.
@crowley0312 My point is, yeah, most sports do evolve to the point where the players are better than they were in the past. Boxing has been around much longer than these other sports, and the only thing that's improved is the art of conditioning. But as we can see that doesn't seem to apply to most of our heavyweights today. The finer art of defense isn't taught as dilligently as it once was. And I can't tell you the last time I saw a heavyweight hook off the jab.
@bandit7498 - Good point, but I dont believe the conditioning is any better at all today. The proof is in the pudding and I'm not seeing any great conditioned heavyweights , are you? These nutrionists crack me up, they have the fighter starve hisself down and then put on 17-20 pounds overnite before the fight. Thers so many idiots who think they're boxing experts it makes one want to cry.
@1899sharkey Y'know I don't really believe the conditioning has improved either. My only point was the science behind conditioning has improved. But the truth is those old timers worked so much harder and conditioned themselves for 15 rounds. Today a kid makes it to the top, he lays off for several months out of the year and maybe twice a year he does an 8 week camp. Where as back in the day the men were always in shape, for the most part. Great point about boxing being one on one.
@1899sharkey I don't fall for that crap about how much boxing has evolved. That's just plain dumb. There's an established art to throwing a punch, slipping punches, balance, counterpunching, etc, and how much can be changed within those confines of the sport? Granted over the years there have been a few who stepped outside the box and did things there own way. Take Roy Jones for example. But when their natural abilities fade, what usually happens?
@1899sharkey They usually end up getting bounced around the ring in their later years like a super bouncy ball because they failed to learn proper technique. Jones was awesome in his prime, but his style was such that only a young man could use. Once the reflexes failed him gone was his first line of defense. Where as a fighter like Hopkins, who is a by the book kind of guy, can last longer because he has proper fundamentals. Those fundamentals haven't changed in 100 years.
@bandit7498 - Very little has changed except for the quality of the fighters. It seems to me that if there were an advantage of an era it would be the era that produced hard, tough men just by the society the lived in. Add in it was the premiere sport in the world and you've got a good product. The last straw was cutting to 12 rd. title bouts, the championship rds.(13-15) seperated the men from the boys.
@bandit7498 And by the way, I think it's pretty funny that you completly spazzed out after I made one little comment. It should be pretty clear who is the child hear. Boxing fans, in general, are terrible. Listen at Pacquiao's and Mayweather's fans go at it. Both are good and have earned a spot in the ATGs, but their haters dismiss them completly. It's really sad. Anyone can hop on "The shit the HWs are in nowadays" band wagon. Takes a bigger man to actually watch them fight, not repeat critics.
@crowley0312 - The reason for the golden age is simple.... Participation. Its easy to think todays fight game is healthy because we still see a few fights on t.v. There is a very small fraction of boxing gyms today compared to yesteryear. Its still possible for great fighters to develop today but not as likely as in years gone by. Believe me, our amatuer program has been on life support for years. No good amateurs-no good pros.
@crowley0312 So why don't you just give up since you can't talk to people without insulting them. Fucking moron. Everybody who's anybody agrees guys like Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Quarry, Cleveland Williams, Terrell, Liston, Holmes, Norton, were all a much brighter group of contenders than the shit we have today. I tried talking to your dumb ass nicely, you wouldn't have it. So go suck your mother's dick.
@crowley0312 And please tell me, since when is targeting a cut considered dirty fighting? And who cares if Vitaly got 8 days notice? Makes sense to me that Lewis too only got 8 days notice. lol. A prime Lewis slaughters Vitaly 8 days a week and twice on Sunday before church. Not only that the K brothers REFUSE to unify the titles. I understand not wanting to fight family, but the heavyweight title is bigger and more important to boxing than either of them.
@bandit7498 the sport has become more evolved. Vitali's got Hide, Byrd (A fight he was easily winning), Norris, Donald, Johnson, was supposed to fight Rahmen but recieved a possible-career ending injury, Sanders, Peter, Gomez, Arreola, Briggs, Solis, Adamek, soon Chisora and the list is growing. Who care's if they don't fight? They both agree Wlad would win at this point and he has the Lineal. I don't think people who want that fight realize how serious it is. People die in this sport.
@crowley0312 It's largely because of them that heavyweight boxing has become an after thought in America today. It's not because we don't have a top American contender. It's because we don't have a true world champion. Lewis was the last undisputed champ. And keep in mind when he was fighting I wasn't the biggest Lewis fan. It's only been since the K bros, refused to unify that I started missing Lewis. lol. But facts are facts, he was much better than either of them.
@bandit7498 It's defenitly because we don't have an American champ/contender. I ask adult all the time if they know who Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis are. Most remember Tyson and Holyfield, none knew who Lewis was. Vitali will retire soon and Wladimir will win the BC belt shortly after and hold onto it for years to come. Their goal was to be the first brother to hold all the belts at once and I salute them for achieving that. Hard to say Lewis being better than Wlad is a FACT, even though I think
The real white man was too much for the brother. Throughout history, it was the white man who beat down the baddest brother. Mike Tyson got spanked by an Irish man.
There used to be many Irish, Italian, and Jewish boxers years ago. So where did they all go? Well when was the last time that you heard of an Irish, Italian, or Jewish ghetto in the US? There's your answer. History has shown that great boxers have come from all races and nationalities from across the globe. No one race has the market cornered on boxing talent, to think otherwise is simply wishful thinking.
@Johnl1800 Vladimir K is a solid champion. He would have contented at any time in history. However how good he is or not is hard to judge as he's reign has come at perhaps the weakest era in boxing history. Great champions only become great by beating great opponents. Vladimir has not had that luxury. Vitali is at best a mediocre
@whitetornado52 Lets'look at his opponents. See any hall of famers? How about first rate oppoents? Oh Lennox Lewis, oops looks like Vitali lost. Oh here's another, Chris Byrd,oops, Vitali lost. Beyond that second raters. His next big name opponent? The great Derick Chisora. Who? Yeah I'm impressed.
@andrewr62 Let's look at what an idiot you are. Byrd and Lewis loses were flukes. Vitali was winning both fights moron. You also conveniently leave out Wlad destroyed Byrd twice. oops wigger jackass. The Klitschkos fight the best out there and never ducked one fighter. George Foreman said Vitali is as good as any of the former champions. Shannon Briggs said Vtiali is the best he ever faced. opps jackass. Learn something about boxing then get back to me.
@whitetornado52 - lmao... so if you beat Byrd twice you're a great fighter? Even bringing up Briggs shows what a novice you are. The Kbros.... one has a glass jaw the other a glass heart.Reading your assinine comments leads me to the conclusion that you should change your username to ' whitetrash52'. "Foreman said"... " Briggs said" GTFOH
@1899sharkey the Klitschkos with their size and skill would be good to dominant in any era. Sorry you're too much of a dumb wigger asshole to know it.
@crowley0312 - lol...Briggs was 39 when he lost a 12 rd. dec. to Vitaly, Briggs was 27 when he was k.o.d by Lewis... yep it sure sounds like Vitaly was better than Lewis.
@1899sharkey He had 6 years expernce when he fought Lennox, 18 years when he fought Vitali.
Briggs showed a garnite chin and a ton of heart when he fought Vitali. He simply refused to go down or be stopped. But he took a terrible beating and lost every round, the fight should have been stopped much sooner. That might be the worst beating I've ever seen a boxer take. Briggs collapsed after the fight and was hospitalized with facial fractures and a torn biceps.
@crowley0312 - I respect the K' bros. I guess i'm in the minority in thinking that Vitaly is the better of the two. I just dont trust W's chin against a real good heavy that can bang and willing to pay the price to land one. I wouldn't put Lewis too far ahead of Vitaly at all.
@1899sharkey Most people rate Vitali higher. In an interview, both brother were asked who'd win if they fought. Both agreed that if they fought on their best days, Vitali would win, although if they fought right now, Wladimir would win. Your right about Wlad's chin, but he does a good job protecting it and hasn't been knocked down in over six years. Why wouldn't you put Vitali ahead of Lennox?
@crowley0312 - Lewis had that suspect jaw too, in light of that I probably would put Vitaly one notch ahead of Lewis. Glass jaws are a real negative with me, they hold up till tested and against other great heavys they would be tested.
@1899sharkey I used to think the same thing about Lewis. But in hindsight I don't really think that anymore. He had plenty of other fights where he got caught pretty good and didn't go down. The two fights he did lose by KO he got caught with a massive shot that could have dropped anyone. No, he didn't have the best chin in heavyweight history. That would go to Ali imo. But he wasn't exactly frail either.
@bandit7498 Lewis has some positives and some negatives. His questionable chin and kinda "big man endurance" is what holds him back imo. I know he wasn't in the 15 round era but when i rate fighters i use that standard. I dont think that he projects to have good 15 round endurance. I am of the opinion that the super heavys dont make our greatest fighters. You are right though, i wouldn't call him frail.
@1899sharkey Wladimir and Lewis were both taught how to protect their jaws by the same trainer, Emanuel Stewart. He's a very great trainer. Tied with Freddie Roach IMO.
@crowley0312 - He is a great trainer but he also taught Tommy Hearns how to protect his jaw. Trainers can only do so much for their fighter. I'm from michigan and was around Steward ( not stewart) before he even turne Hearns and Mickey Goodwin pro waaaay back. He was a very nice guy back then to everybody. His KRONK amateur teams kicked ass. W's chin is a lot more suspect than Lewis'. None of these guys are top ten of all time.
@1899sharkey Yeah, I know he taught Hearns. He's a great trainer. He was McCall's trainer when he fought Lewis. Lewis lost badly, but Manny could still see his potential and took him under his wing and turned him into the Heavyweight champion of the world. Same thing happend to Wladimir after his first Brewster fight. Steward seems like a great guy and I'd love to meet him someday.
@whitetornado52 Not talking about Vladimir who I consider a good champion. I have never been impressed with Vitali. So I must be impressed becasue 2nd rater Shannon Briggs says he's the best he fought? Wow I'm so impressed. Until Vitali fights someone of qualifty he's just another champion. Not the among the greatest of all time.
@andrewr62 You just prove that you are a completely new fan to boxing. Saying Lewis and Byrd beat Vitali is like saying Roldan knocked Hagler down. The Klitsckho's are just to good. So good, they can't lose their titles and their opponents are unable to get any fame. Most of their opponents will probably get in the hall of fame someday. Lots of contenders who never won a title (Cause there was only one) get into the hall of fame. Way to pick through them out before their career is done. Bitch.
"All big white men had a reputation for glass jaws."
Since when? I don't know where people come up with this kind of stuff. There's been both white and black heavyweights with great chins (Chuvalo, Ali, ) and glass jaws (Bobick, Patterson). A boxers ethnicity has absolutely no bearing on their ability to take a punch.
It's all about the hunger for the sport, as a way of climbing out of poverty, or the gaining of a reputation, mostly both. On the most part, the popular sports had winners and contenders who came from a poorer background, that includes all races. As the various peoples had other opportunies, then a lot of sports ebbed and flowed with quality of the person involved. . If the USA could to this day find a great White hope, then it would really grab the publics attention, and boxing would benefit.
All big white men had a reputation for glass jaws. No one denies when we think of fighters we think black, but please God black kids will get bitten by the Education Bug. I'd rather have 25 black Judges and Black lawyers than one black champ. So would there Mothers. We like boxing same as we once liked cock fighting, bull baiting, hare coursing and organised dog fights but wasn't society a poor one then? As for the Klitsckos: Pass me some string so G Foreman can fight em both with ONE HAND.
Ball For Life makes good sense. In this fight with Willard he was badly matched with a bigger, stronger man and spent 26 rounds trying to beat Willard, He was KO. and denying was a poor bid to retain the public's interest. Willard was a bum, Johnson w train, drank, was a problem, but still a top class eventer. BallforLife: Draws an accurate picture of those times meaning hard white men from mining country. Then black men from ghettos. 1960 on 12 of the all time best who had height and speed.
The Klitschko's are simply horrible, the fact that they have such impressive records just shows you how awful the heavyweight division is today. To put it in perspective, the both of them would have had a life and death struggle with Gerry Cooney let alone someone who could actually box.
@Johnl1800 - Thank-You. They are the best of as terrible a heavyweight division as has ever been seen. The best american heavys today wouldn't have made good sparring partners in previous eras.I keep waiting for some poor schmuck fron eastern europe to develop but i'm still waiting. Almost impossible to even develop a great heavy today.
@1899sharkey That's the problem right there. The conditions to create great boxers no longer exist. Olympic boxing is a joke and has been turned into point sparring karate, less pro boxers, fighting less often, spread thin over 17 divisions with 68 world "champions" etc. Guys turn pro, fatten their record against creampuffs, win a title and then go into virtual semi-retirement for the rest of their careers. You can't be great competing once a year vs. second rate opposition.
@Johnl1800 Not everyone does that though. Some people want all the titles. Other's are super active, like that Thai Flyweight guy.
I think you made a lot of good points on race. But I've got to disagree with you on the Klitschko's. They're easily two of the best Heavyweights of all time. Do you think every fighter was popular when they were active? That their opponent's were all considered world class? No. The HW division could be at it's best. They're bigger and quicker than ever before.
@crowley0312 Technically both Klitschko's are simply horrible. Vitali for example, has terrible footwork he steps with the wrong foot, crosses his feet, and is incapable of stepping in or out behind his punches. When he throws a punch with either hand he drops the other to his hip. He frequently drops his punching hand to his hip after he throws a punch because he's over extending his shoulders beyond his hips which results in follow through. cont.
Vitali has decent power due to his sheer size but does not properly set his feet or put his hips into his punches. These guys are supposed to be champions yet they cannot competently execute even the most basic of fundamental boxing techniques consistently or correctly. The technical skills in boxing today in general are the worst that I have seen them in the 40 years that I have been following the sport.
Hw are bigger but quicker hell no. Many of these guys are bloated on steroids/hgh or are just simply fat and could/should be anywhere from 20-50 lighter then they are. Size in and of itself is over rated to an absurd degree. Every other hw fight today looks the same, 2 big lumbering oafs pawing away at each other and falling into endless clinches. A guy like Gerry Cooney (no world beater mind you) would beat anyone that the Klits. bros. have and would be a dominant champ today too.
@whitetornado52 I notice that aside from name calling that you aren't able to address anything that I posted concerning Vitali poor technical skills. You haven't because you can't because you have no idea what you are talking about or looking at. I doubt that you could coherently articulate even the most basic of boxing tech, if your life depended on it. If you honestly think that Vitali's footwork etc is fundamentally correct then obviously you are the one who is the clueless.
@Johnl1800 Technical skills don't mean shit. Who cars about his footwork? Vitali's style may not be pretty but it's very effective. The bottom line is winning moron. Vitali is a champion and one of all time greats. Shut up idiot
@whitetornado52 Again with the name calling because you have nothing else to fall back on. Your behavior is like that of a young child when told that there is no Santa Claus. You are either painfully ignorant or a troll, either way you are obviously not worth responding to.
@Johnl1800 You seem determined to downsize the Klitsckho's. No one is 100% perfect at everything, so you attack their footwork, possibly the most worthless factor if you do everything else good. They don't even need it because they are always taller than their opponents. You don't realize how quick some of these big guys are. They are naturaly big men, they train 365 days a year though. Not fat at all. Cooney couldn't compete above Crusierweight today.
@crowley0312 I don't have any problem with them I'm just calling it as I see it. Everything starts from the ground up if your balance and footwork is poor it causes a chain reaction the rest of the way. Their punching mechanics, defense etc. are also equally poor. A great record does not = a great fighter, in this case it's more indicative of the simply awful caliber of the hw today.
Cooney was 6' 6" and his best weight was 225-230lbs. he would have to cut a leg off to make cw.
@Johnl1800 See, critics like you focus on the flaws of current fighters and the strenghs of past ones.
Vitali the current fighter: He has terrible defense
Vitali the former fighter: He had a garnite chin.
No on'es perfect, not even Robinson.
Doesn't take a genius to insult their opponents. You call the fighters today bad, really the Klitschko's are just that good that they can humiliate the destroy their opponents easily. Most people who insults todays HWs have never seen them fight,
@crowley0312 "No ones perfect, not even Robinson."
You can nitpick anyone to death if you want to even Robinson. I've seen films of Robinson stepping with the wrong foot, Pep dropping his hands etc. No is perfect 100% of the time. Everyone's mechanics break down when fatigue and or age set in. The difference is that great fighters do things right most of the time, ordinary fighters do things wrong most of the time.
@crowley0312 "Most people who insults todays HWs have never seen them fight" I have seen them fight, that's the problem, that's why I and most other people criticize them.
"Klitschko's are just that good"
Even with mediocre technique it's easy to look good against guys who are offering little more resistance than a heavy bag, especially when you also enjoy the size advantage.
@crowley0312 "critics like you focus on the flaws of current fighters and the strenghs of past ones."
I'm not some old timer who wants to rant about the "good old days". The NFL teams from the 1960's would be lucky to beat a good college team today. I only wish that today's fighters were better than ever and would have no problem saying so if it were true.
Today you have less boxers fighting less often. There used to be 1 champ for every 600+ pros, today there is 1 for every 60
@Johnl1800 It is true for boxing. Boxing started out as two people trying the punch one another. Naturally, the most heavy people would be the most exciting. But as time went on, fighters got more smart. Smart fighters are pretty rare in the HW division, but the Klitschko's are two of them. It may be a turn off or misleading to see big guys be technical, but that's what winner's do. If there was one champ, EVERYONE would be making a hell of a lot less money.
Sorry but no. I know where you're coming from though because 30+ years ago I used to say the very same things. "All athletes today are better, the boxers of the past would get destroyed today, why would every sport improve except boxing? etc." I still have the letters that used to write to the local papers (in the dark ages before the internet) and laugh at them when I realize today how little that I knew back then.
@crowley0312 "If there was one champ, EVERYONE would be making a hell of a lot less money."
I don't buy that for a second. If there was one champion per division then maybe holding a title would actually mean something and a true title fight between the top contenders would be a major event. It's because of the proliferation of titles/weight classes that guys can get by calling themselves "champions" while avoiding fighting the best. What available talent there is is spread thin.
@Johnl1800 Think about it. Who would want to be a boxer knowing there was only one belt in the world? They're chances of winning it are super thin. If it's an inactive champion, they could spend most of their career in line waiting for a shot. No one would want to be a boxer. Back than, few had the dream of becoming a world champion. They did it for what little money they could make, and if they happend to be good, MAYBE win the world title. Boxing would truly die nowadays if that happend.
@crowley0312 "Boxing would truly die nowadays if that happend"
Boxing thrived as a sport when there was less titles not more. Part of the reason that it has declined so drastically in popularity from where it was is the proliferation of titles/weight classes. The titles have become so de-valued that they hardly mean anything anymore. The primary reason for their creation and continued existence is to generate sanctioning fees for the alphabet orginizations.
@crowley0312 "They're chances of winning it are super thin."
That's the way it should be! If any and everybody who is even halfway decent gets to call themselves a "champion" then whats the point? Does it really mean anything anymore?
The odds of winning an Olympic medal, the Super Bowl, being the very best in the world at anything should be "super thin". Think about how it would ultimately affect other sports if they handed out multiple Lombardi Trophys, gold medals etc.
@Johnl1800 Not everybody, just 4 people out of millions. Consider who would want to be a boxer. It's low paying if your not at least fighting for the title or in main events. Champions fight eachother all the time to. There's also the Lineal belt, which puts the others to shame. Olympians get paid decently just for representing. Same with pro football players. Those guys make a fucking ton, even the bad teams. All athletes need money. Also, you have not elaborated about your first comment.
Sorry but no. I know where you're coming from though because 30+ years ago I used to say the very same things. "All athletes today are better, the boxers of the past would get destroyed today, why would every sport improve except boxing? etc." I still have the letters that used to write to the local papers (in the dark ages before the internet) and laugh at them when I realize today how little that I knew back then.
I understand your point but I don't see it that way. In the past when there were more active boxers and less titles and divisions. Depending on the time period there was one champ for every 600 to 1000+ pro boxers. Today with more titles/less boxers there is 1 for every 60. The talent is spread too thin, the best don't/won't fight the best, everyone wants the most money with the least risk, and it's the fans and the sport that suffers as a result.
@Johnl1800 There are thousands and thousands in each division. And like I said, there's the lineal title. The lineal title is considered the world title. That's why new champions rising through ranks fight the #1 guy, than move on. Getting all the belts is to time consuming for the lower weights. You'll out grow the weight before that happens. And not every champion takes easy fights. Some go for other champions and hard fights. There's risk-takers and non risk-takers.
@crowley0312 "There are thousands and thousands in each division."
Most of these guys are technically "active" because they maybe had one fight a year or two ago and have maybe 10 fights total. Most people don't realize the simple staggering amount of boxing that was being staged years ago. There was a time that New York state alone held more fights in 1 year than are held worldwide in 1 year today. NY state alone had more licensed boxers than are licensed worldwide today also.
@Johnl1800 Those NY fighters were fighting for pennys. Naturally they all had to fight very often. There's more value in everything now though. No one wants to go back to every boxer in the world except for 8 making pennys. We're more evolved. Clearly Mayweather's pay-per-views records show how much less money is worth, not proof he is the most popular ever. Boxing may have been more popular then, but consider how many people would be willing to get their face bashed for so little.
@crowley0312 "how many people would be willing to get their face bashed for so little."
Well when I was fighting in mma (1999-2001) we were fighting for almost nothing and they never seemed to have any problem filling a fight card. Even though the pay has increased as the sport has grown in popularity the preliminary guys on most small mma shows are fighting for as little as $100-500. It still isn't uncommon for main event guys to be fighting for as little as $1,000-3,000.
@crowley0312 "It's low paying if your not at least fighting for the title or in main events."
Hell it's always been that way! When I was still running my mma/grappling gym I would get guys who would tell me that they wanted to make mma their "career". I told them the same thing that I heard as a kid when I used to box "If don't have the talent to be a world class fighter just forget it. You'll just end up as a piece of meat for the promoters to use up and discard."
@Johnl1800 True, this is not an easy sport to achieve much in. Also, I don't think you realize how long there has been more than one belt. There has been two belts forever. Most of the past lower division champions only held the BA or BC belts. And out of curiosity, when would you say it becomes clear you have the talent to be a world class fighter?
@crowley0312 It's hard to say since exactly since there are so many factors involved, receiving the proper training, effective management, work ethic, mental toughness and discipline etc. Many a potential champion was ruined by improper handling/matchmaking. Also boxing is unlike other sports in that to really go anywhere you have to have the natural talent which I compare to being able to sing or dance. It's different from raw athleticism.
I've seen many athletic guys whom were terrible because that lacked the necessary boxing talent, couldn't take a punch, weren't mentally tough etc.. There have been many great boxing champions were not particularly gifted athletes. When you occasionally get guys like Ali and Robinson who were both gifted, athletic, iron willed etc. is when you have something really special.
Usually a guy gets one good run at the top ten/winning a title but you never know. Sometimes you get a guy that everyone has written off like Jersey Joe Walcott who eventually turns it around. Everybody fights fairly easy opposition on the way up but you'll find out whether or not you have what it takes when you eventually have to up the level of your opposition and start fighting guys who can actually fight back and don't fall down the first time that you hit them.
@Johnl1800 Heck, even if it's an active champion, they could wait for years and years. More champions, more opportunities, more prize fights, more boxers, etc.
@Johnl1800 might sound crazy, but it's true. Some fans are just terrible. I never claimed their records were great btw. It's sad how some people look for anything they can to downsize fighters.
I do take back what I said about Cooney. He could probably break the top 10. If he fought either Klitschko's, he'd get KO'd in the first few rounds.
@Johnl1800 George Forman said Vtiali is as good as any of the former champions. Lennox Lewis said Wlad has good footwork. Apparently nobody sees it like you. Saying their defence is poor is also laughable. I suggest you find another interest. Boxing is something you know absolutley nothing about
@whitetornado5 Find me one boxing instructional from any era that shows that stepping with the wrong foot, crossing your feet, overextending your shoulders/upper body far out beyond your hips, etc.(things that the Klitschko's do routine from first round to last) is an example of "correct" balance and footwork because that is something that I would like to see.
@whitetornado52 Fair enough, everybody likes to see winning fighters, I don't know about the "any era" part though. To show that I can be fair I could see the Klit bros. being a real problem for some of the very small hw of the past due to their ht/reach advantage. Much the same way that Carnera was able to beat the more technical Tommy Loughran. While he was able to outbox him Loughran simply lacked the size/power to keep Primo from ultimately bullying and mauling him around.
@whitetornado52 "Boxing is something you know absolutley nothing about"
I've forgotten more about boxing than you will ever know.
"I suggest you find another interest"
I suggest you learn to formulate a coherent argument. Other than Ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority you have nothing to add.
Maybe you should start by picking a book so you have some idea what you are talking about. Might I suggest "Boxing for Dummies" and "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Boxing".
@wesboss1 Yup, you hit it right on the head. Because I said Blacks have historically been the best athletes, they are clearly better people *rolls eyes* SMH at you ignorant idiots. Go get an education and come back.
Jack Johnson did not throw the fight. If he was blocking the sun to show that he was able to continue, why didn't he get up? Why would he get another title shot if he threw it? And why the hell would he fight for 26 rounds before finally falling?
@AlexExodia It's not racist to say, in general, black athletes are superior to white athletes; because this is true. While there are a few exceptions, boxing certainly isn't one of them. However given this time frame, it's not hard to imagine jack johnson losing, considering the black population available to fight was very shallow and neither fighter was well trained. But don't get ridiculous, no race has dominated the sport like black and hispanic fighters have, particularly black fighters.
@balla4life215 Look up the list of current boxing champions on Wikipedia. Championships are how you measure success. The following champions are all white Europeans: Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Alexander Povetkin, Marco Huck, Krzysztof Włodarczyk, Denis Lebedev, Nathan Cleverly, Károly Balzsay, Brian Magee, Carl Froch, Lucian Bute, Robert Stieglitz, Felix Sturm, Dmitry Pirog, Zaurbek Baysangurov, Viacheslav Senchenko, and Ricky Burns.
@AlexExodia That list is complete bullshit. There's a higher abundance of white fighters today because all the elite black athletes are either in football, basketball, or baseball. Boxing has been on the decline and no longer offers nearly equal appeal as those sports. Back in the golden era of boxing, when the sport was much more respected and there were gyms open across the U.S, black athletes DOMINATED period. Look at all the BEST: Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Liston, Louis, Tyson etc. etc. etc.
@balla4life215 - Take your black dominating ass to a prison channel where the blacks really dominate. Blacks didn't dominate anything until the Irish and Jews educated theirselves and went on to other occupations. Skin pigmentation is not a necessary asset for making a great fighter.
@Davidsondaini - You obviously have trouble comprehending what you read. Any racial comments from me are always replys to some ignorant racial comment. Johnson is one of my favorite fighters of all time and have defended him on youtube consistently.
@whitetornado52 Hmmm where should I begin? That Klitschkos isn't the number 1 p4p fighter, that he isn't a top all time heavyweight (and therefore actually rules very little), that this era of boxing is much weaker than it was in the 60's, that you're clearly white and over sensitive, or how you clearly are not intelligent enough to argue with me so you resort to name calling in pathetic hopes of making me angry? Ahh I can't choose.
@balla4life215 another silly negro that can't accept the Klitschkos. Black Americans are the most racist people on earth. The Klitschkos with their size and skill would be good to dominant in any era. With the fall of the iron curtain black dominance in the heavyweight division is over.
@whitetornado52 Hey whitetornado, U mad bro?? LOL I'm not even going to justify the rest of your nonsense with a response. I'll leave you alone and let you enjoy masturbating to the Klitschkos hahaha
@balla4life215 theres a lot of black n hispanic fighters cuz boxing was always a sport for the poor to get out of poverty as the turn of the century came whites became more privileged n the prevalence of white collar job boomed so there was no need to turn to fighting being a specific color doesnt make u a great fighter hard work n dedication do
@SoundwaveSuperior373 This is complete nonsenese. Blacks weren't even ALLOWED to fight when the sport was created, and were constantly held back throughout it's history. Not only were they at times not even allowed to fight, but even then they where they often still weren't given title shots! Just look at all the TOP fighters and see who's dominant: Ali, Louis, Tyson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, etc. No offense but at least 8/10 best boxers ever are black. No coincidence.
@balla4life215 i think its very much a coincidence as much as how there is so many white hockey players and asian kick boxers sure blacks were held back before but nowadays white people barely even attempts to make money through boxing demographics for anything is just a by product of socioeconomic if ur goin to pull the race card n say oh they r great boxers just cuz they r black then ppl mite as well say oh all the greatest scientist r great because they r white
@SoundwaveSuperior373 Did you just use hockey, a canadian sport, as your counterexample?? lol that's funny. I hate to break it to you but a canadian sport being a majority white isn't that surprising....go figure. Your scientist example is a bit more valid, however I would argue that's more a result of poor educational opportunities for minorities in general in America as opposed to white people being naturally better. And I believe India (not white people) is the top rated country in science...
@balla4life215 actually usa is the number one followed by countries like germany japan china etc india doesn't even come close in science n the socio economics of america has changed whites r now privileged middle class there is no reason 4 them to enter boxing all the fresh young talents r now poor kids from the projects who r tryin to use boxing to break out of poverty
@SoundwaveSuperior373 Whites have always made up the majority of the privileged middle class in this country, i have no idea what your point is. The reason boxing is on the decline is because it currently doesn't have appeal to ANYONE, not just white people. Why box when you can play basketball or football and have a chance to earn more money with less health risks? Boxing simply isn't drawing the elite athletes from ANY race anymore. When it did, blacks dominated, it's a fact just accept it.
@balla4life215 white ppl were poor as hell in the turn of the century the white boxers were all miners dock workers cargo movers traveling freight trains fighting just so they can eat blacks didnt start dominating until the 60s n that was after the marciano era where the american middle class was emerging by that time whites were already started to get better jobs n didnt need to fight boxing was always a poor mans sport
@SoundwaveSuperior373 There have/always will be a plethora of poor white ppl in this country, even now. You're looking for explanations where they don't exist. The reason there were more dominant white fighters early on is because they were the only ones groomed to fight! Guys like Jack Johnson often weren't even given opportunities in fear of "darkening" the division. This discrimination was even used against sugar ray robinson, the best fighter ever, and he fought BEFORE the 60's.
@balla4life215 majority of ppl who enter boxing competitions r poor kids from the hood im just saying race doesnt determine how great u r saying race automatically makes u a great boxer is just racist
@SoundwaveSuperior373 I certainly never said being black made anyone a good fighter automatically, there are a ton of TERRIBLE black fighters today and in history. The point is, the most elite boxers are all black, and I'm not going to ignorantly say that's just a coincidence.
@balla4life215 Well, you look at kickboxing where the top fighters are European and Asian, or you can look at MMA, where the top fighters are American, Brazilian, and Japanese. Now race didn't factor into why they are successful. They were just at the right place at the right time. Same goes for boxing.
@SoundwaveSuperior373 Well boxing and MMA are two very different things, but even if you look at UFC, which is the best of the best as far as Mixed Martial Arts....the best is Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, etc....Black fighters!! Either way I'm not saying there aren't great fighters in other races. There are tons. I'm just saying, the most elite fighters have typically been black.
@balla4life215 You forgot Georges St. Pierre (Defenitly goes above Jones) and Frankie Edgar. Both races have good and bad, but white people seem to have the more success in MMA, despite the single best fighter being black.
mad that johnson claimed a dive in this fight no way would you take a dive in the 26th round
lee1990lee 2 days ago
Round 26.... dang thats a long fight...
MrMooWho 1 week ago
johnson and his racism ran into a BIG WHITE MAN and got his ass kayo'd. muhahahahaha.
AntiFeminaziMale 3 weeks ago
As far as mma goes there really isn't any amateur circuit to compete in. I used to tell guys that they needed to start by competing in grappling tournaments for a while so that they could get comp.experience in a fairly safe environment. This used to weed out most of the fakers who like the idea of competing and eventually fighting mma but disliked the reality of actually training for it. If they couldn't mentally handle the pressure of a grappling tournament even thinking about mma was out.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Johnl1800 You say you laugh now when you think back on how you used to think, "All athletes today are better, the boxers of the past would get destroyed today, why would every sport improve except boxing? etc."
Why is that? The Klitschko's may not be beautiful or well rounded, but I can't see the fighters who were beating them. I think HW got so technical, it's boring. Do you think Ali and Louis could beat them? I think the Klitschko's would be hitting them with jabs all night long.
crowley0312 1 month ago
As far as even trying by turning pro, you can tell right away some guys just don't have it(physically or mentally) and shouldn't bother. In boxing today if you don't have a solid amateur background you'll never make it. The days where you could turn pro at 18 and spend years learning your trade competing in 4, 6, and 8 round preliminary fights are long over since there just aren't enough active boxers or fights being held anymore to go that route.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Johnl1800 "As far as even trying by turning pro, you can tell right away some guys just don't have it(physically or mentally) and shouldn't bother. In boxing today if you don't have a solid amateur background you'll never make it. The days where you could turn pro at 18 and spend years learning your trade competing in 4, 6, and 8 round preliminary fights are long over since there just aren't enough active boxers or fights being held anymore to go that route."
Sergio "Marvilla" Martinez
crowley0312 1 month ago
Multiple titles in each div. makes it too easy for the top guys to avoid fighting each other since the sanctioning bodies won't rate the other title holders. For arguments sake lets say Mann Pac. is the 1 ww champ and Mayweather and Berto fight in a 12 rd elimination fight for the next shot. Do you think that they'll make less money or that the fans will have less interest because some bs title isn't at stake? Fans want to see the best vs. the best, the current system does more harm than good.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Point is, the multiple belts are a good thing for money and fighters. It gives rising stars much more opportunity and gives more main events. And again, it's just good to go after the #1 guy. Donaire beat the #1 Flyweight (Darchinyan) and moved on. He beat the #1 Bantamweight (Montiel) and moved on.
crowley0312 1 month ago
For all u evolutionists... Boxing is man v man, its not a sport played with a ball with multiple players and dozens of plays. Two men in a square ring stripped almost naked with boxing gloves on. Up until about '50 boxing and baseball were the only sports for kids to do.Watch Benny Leonard and Gene Tunney and then tell me that boxing has "evolved" The ONLY thing better today are the cameras.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey "The ONLY thing better today are the cameras."
People don't realize what a big difference that makes. I remember watching old films when I was kid and not being too impressed. Several decades later (and quite a bit more knowledgeable) I had the chance to see some of the same films with the speed corrected and the picture stabilized and cleaned up and it was like night and day. I went from saying "Those guys sucked" to "Wow those guys were really good!"
Johnl1800 1 month ago
I'd have to say Lewis was a much better fighter than Vitaly imo. Lewis fought the better opposition and beat them all. He looked better doing it too. A sluggish Lewis still was able to beat Vitaly at his best. A lot of people claim Vitaly would have won that fight if it weren't stopped on cuts. But watch again and you'll see Vitaly was a shot fighter the last couple rounds of that fight and Lewis was getting better. Vitaly put up more of a fight AFTER the fight was called off than the last rd.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 Better opposition? Who did he fight that was better? Yes, he has Tyson's name, but this was a horribly shallow Tyson. Both Klitschko's would beat him at this point. Wouldn't say Vitali was at his best when he fought Lewis. He took the fight on 8 days notice. He also spent his 20s in kickboxing and was pretty new to pro boxing. Both Vitali and Lennox looked spent. That wasn't a normal cut, after Lennox saw it, he bashed Vitali's eye at every chance he got. Lennox got pretty dirty.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 Are you kidding? Look at Lewis' resume. ANY of the fighters he defended against would have slaughtered the bumbs that Vitaly and Wlad have been facing the past 7 years. New to boxing you say? He'd been fighting proffessional since '96 when he faced Lewis. Who did Lewis fight? Well, who DIDN'T he fight? Briggs (a better, younger Briggs) Mercer, Morrison, Holyfield, Akinwande, Golota, Tua, (a prime Tua) Bruno, Rahman, McCall, Tucker, Razor Ruddock. Where's the comparison?
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 I'm not denying that Lewis fought good fighters, but what makes his fighters better than the Klitschko's? They've had more time in people's mind's and have a better image. That's the main reason why, Lewis' and the Klitschko's opponents are mostly on par. You say his opponents would slaughter Vitali's. That's just stupid. An old "the previous generation would destroy this one's" cliche. Really, what make's 10 year older fighter's better? Technically, newer boxers are better because
crowley0312 1 month ago
@bandit7498 he is. But after Tyson, Lewis was really unactive. During that time, Wladimir was the #1 contender until he fought Sanders. So if Lewis didn't want to fight Wlad, it's hard to say. Right now, Lewis is better than Wladimir. But Steward says we haven't seen Wladimir's potential yet.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 Of course Tyson and Holyfield were better known to the casual fan. That's a given. Won't even discuss that comment. My point was foreign fighters have historically still been able to acheive a wide American audience if they're good enough, and if they're fighting the best out there. Since they won't fight each other it can be said they are both ducking the best out there and they hide behind the fact that they're brothers. There needs to be one heavyweight champion.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 Wouldn't say all foreign fighters can. Mexicans can achieve fame in the US because there are so many Mexican fighters. Most people didn't even know where the Ukraine was before the Klitschko's. They've diffenitly paved the way for other Ukraines, at least.
Technicaly what you say can be said about all champions. Anyways, Wladimir isn't even signed with the WBC. He in't in their rankings. So he's ducking no one. You might as well say everyone who isn't holding ll the belts is
crowley0312 1 month ago
@bandit7498 crap might remain for awhile.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 Historically if you go back 20, 30 years, other weight classes can thrive on creating rivalries between several champs in a weight class, but the heavies cannot. Before Tyson when there were 3 champs, heavyweight boxing was in the slumps, even though Holmes was still active and the real champ. Tyson unified the belts and heavyweight boxing thrived again. If Wlad or Vitaly cared about boxing one of them should retire now OR they should fight.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 disgracing the sport. And again, you most likely have never stepped in a ring. This is a serious sport that people die in. The Klitschko's will never fight eachother outside an exhibition. Nothing wrong with Holmes' era. He, like the Klitschko's, was just a dominante force, so people chose to downsize his opponents. If someone can retain the title 20 times = Must be weak competition. I swear, some boxing "fans" are just plain freaking terrible.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 And to say heavyweights are better now than 10 years ago, please. When Chris Arreola is among the best America has to offer for the big boys then it's a sad day for boxing. By that virtue today's contenders would easily beat out the Golden Era heavies of the late 60s and early 70s. I believe you'll find it very difficult to find supporters on that. Fighting ain't like football or basketball. It's a lot more mentally involved than other sports. They were better back then
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 Arreola's good. He might be in charge if it wasn't for the Klitschko's. And don't come at me with that "Golden Age" shit. I never take anyone serious who calls the 60s-70s Golden Age. They were EXCITING, not nesscisarily the BEST. I don't understand how the sport could climb up, and than suddenly stock market crash. Whoever said HW is "dead" is an asshole. When something's dead, it's gone forever. 98% of people who insult the HW have never seen one modern HW fight :) So this "dead"
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 Wow, you just showed what a punk you are, can't even have a simple debate without resulting to insults. So if that's how you wanna talk, so be it. I never said hw boxing was dead moron. But it's all but irrelevent in the states compared to the other weights today. And as far as rather or not I've fought before, you don't fucking know me chump. You're a 26 yr old punk ass kid who doesn't even know the proper way to wipe his ass yet. Bitch I've forgotten more than u know
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 I was reffering to boxing fans in general when I said Some boxing "fans" are terrible, not you directly. Not sure where else I insulted you, but I apoligize if I did because I didn't mean to.
The "Golden Age" thing gives a very close-minded perspective to fans. What is it about fighters from this specific time that makes them great? Why is it logicaly, phisicaly and mentaly impossible for fighters to come close to them? Will they be the best 100 years later? Probaly not.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 What made that era so special was the willingness of damn near all the fighters of that era to face the other top fighters of their time to prove they were the best. There was something about those guys that was different in the respect that they weren't as afraid to put it all on the line as the heavies, or any weight for that matter, of today are. Not to mention they were 15 round fighters and their conditioning was better back then.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 Umm, ok. See, people are willing to fight other top fighters today though. You know, retaining their title? Just goes to show how overrated the era is. Everyone was a slugger except for Norton and Ali. Again, EXCITING, but not exactly the best. Most fighters train to go 15-30 rounds. Just because they don't have that many rounds doesn't mean they couldn't go that long. But again, you've clearly never been in a ring, so I don't except you to understand.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 Seriously dude, get off my dick. Bitch, I've climbed through the ropes more than you could dream of, but why the fuck would I get up here and talk about that when EVERY fucking moron (like yourself) that gets on here commenting on a boxing video claims to be a boxer. You go ahead and think what the fuck you want dillweed. really, you're in the minority with your thinking and the shit you spew from your cum dumpster is laughable.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 Just as I figured. Stick to your insults.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 You have much to learn kid. Grow up a bit.......
bandit7498 1 month ago
@crowley0312 Look at the guys today. Mostly a bunch of fat asses. Samuel Peter? Areola? Niether of those guys have the conditioning OR the will to lay it all out like Ali or Frazier would have. And as far as heavies goes, the amateur scene is sorely lacking in luster. That's where it all begins. All the good heavyweights today are playing football. It's a lot easier than boxing and they get an education to boot. When I watch a heavyweight fight today I'm nearly bored to tears.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 They build muscle on top of fat. Lots of football players do that, like linemen. If you took an original HW and put him in this era, he'd get pushed and knocked all over the place. Your football theory is false. Football is more popular, but that says nothing about who has better athletes. Most football players couldn't be boxers if they wanted to be. It's completly different. I personally think ALL HWs are boring. But that's a pathetic excuse to deny their talent.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 My point is, yeah, most sports do evolve to the point where the players are better than they were in the past. Boxing has been around much longer than these other sports, and the only thing that's improved is the art of conditioning. But as we can see that doesn't seem to apply to most of our heavyweights today. The finer art of defense isn't taught as dilligently as it once was. And I can't tell you the last time I saw a heavyweight hook off the jab.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 - Good point, but I dont believe the conditioning is any better at all today. The proof is in the pudding and I'm not seeing any great conditioned heavyweights , are you? These nutrionists crack me up, they have the fighter starve hisself down and then put on 17-20 pounds overnite before the fight. Thers so many idiots who think they're boxing experts it makes one want to cry.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey Y'know I don't really believe the conditioning has improved either. My only point was the science behind conditioning has improved. But the truth is those old timers worked so much harder and conditioned themselves for 15 rounds. Today a kid makes it to the top, he lays off for several months out of the year and maybe twice a year he does an 8 week camp. Where as back in the day the men were always in shape, for the most part. Great point about boxing being one on one.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@1899sharkey I don't fall for that crap about how much boxing has evolved. That's just plain dumb. There's an established art to throwing a punch, slipping punches, balance, counterpunching, etc, and how much can be changed within those confines of the sport? Granted over the years there have been a few who stepped outside the box and did things there own way. Take Roy Jones for example. But when their natural abilities fade, what usually happens?
bandit7498 1 month ago
@1899sharkey They usually end up getting bounced around the ring in their later years like a super bouncy ball because they failed to learn proper technique. Jones was awesome in his prime, but his style was such that only a young man could use. Once the reflexes failed him gone was his first line of defense. Where as a fighter like Hopkins, who is a by the book kind of guy, can last longer because he has proper fundamentals. Those fundamentals haven't changed in 100 years.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 - Very little has changed except for the quality of the fighters. It seems to me that if there were an advantage of an era it would be the era that produced hard, tough men just by the society the lived in. Add in it was the premiere sport in the world and you've got a good product. The last straw was cutting to 12 rd. title bouts, the championship rds.(13-15) seperated the men from the boys.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@bandit7498 And by the way, I think it's pretty funny that you completly spazzed out after I made one little comment. It should be pretty clear who is the child hear. Boxing fans, in general, are terrible. Listen at Pacquiao's and Mayweather's fans go at it. Both are good and have earned a spot in the ATGs, but their haters dismiss them completly. It's really sad. Anyone can hop on "The shit the HWs are in nowadays" band wagon. Takes a bigger man to actually watch them fight, not repeat critics.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 - The reason for the golden age is simple.... Participation. Its easy to think todays fight game is healthy because we still see a few fights on t.v. There is a very small fraction of boxing gyms today compared to yesteryear. Its still possible for great fighters to develop today but not as likely as in years gone by. Believe me, our amatuer program has been on life support for years. No good amateurs-no good pros.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@crowley0312 So why don't you just give up since you can't talk to people without insulting them. Fucking moron. Everybody who's anybody agrees guys like Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Quarry, Cleveland Williams, Terrell, Liston, Holmes, Norton, were all a much brighter group of contenders than the shit we have today. I tried talking to your dumb ass nicely, you wouldn't have it. So go suck your mother's dick.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 the Klitschkos would have beaten every fighter you mentioned. Shut up you vile jerk.
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@crowley0312 And please tell me, since when is targeting a cut considered dirty fighting? And who cares if Vitaly got 8 days notice? Makes sense to me that Lewis too only got 8 days notice. lol. A prime Lewis slaughters Vitaly 8 days a week and twice on Sunday before church. Not only that the K brothers REFUSE to unify the titles. I understand not wanting to fight family, but the heavyweight title is bigger and more important to boxing than either of them.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 the sport has become more evolved. Vitali's got Hide, Byrd (A fight he was easily winning), Norris, Donald, Johnson, was supposed to fight Rahmen but recieved a possible-career ending injury, Sanders, Peter, Gomez, Arreola, Briggs, Solis, Adamek, soon Chisora and the list is growing. Who care's if they don't fight? They both agree Wlad would win at this point and he has the Lineal. I don't think people who want that fight realize how serious it is. People die in this sport.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 It's largely because of them that heavyweight boxing has become an after thought in America today. It's not because we don't have a top American contender. It's because we don't have a true world champion. Lewis was the last undisputed champ. And keep in mind when he was fighting I wasn't the biggest Lewis fan. It's only been since the K bros, refused to unify that I started missing Lewis. lol. But facts are facts, he was much better than either of them.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 It's defenitly because we don't have an American champ/contender. I ask adult all the time if they know who Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis are. Most remember Tyson and Holyfield, none knew who Lewis was. Vitali will retire soon and Wladimir will win the BC belt shortly after and hold onto it for years to come. Their goal was to be the first brother to hold all the belts at once and I salute them for achieving that. Hard to say Lewis being better than Wlad is a FACT, even though I think
crowley0312 1 month ago
I love these old fights. The technique is superb and the fights are part of history.
Rockyfan10060 1 month ago
@Rockyfan10060 - Hey Rocky, where you been? Good to see you back.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
Haha, thank you Sharkey. I've been pretty busy, but I'm finally get in back to being on more and more. I was missing it, haha.
Rockyfan10060 1 month ago
The real white man was too much for the brother. Throughout history, it was the white man who beat down the baddest brother. Mike Tyson got spanked by an Irish man.
wtdontplay 1 month ago
"when we think of fighters we think black,"
There used to be many Irish, Italian, and Jewish boxers years ago. So where did they all go? Well when was the last time that you heard of an Irish, Italian, or Jewish ghetto in the US? There's your answer. History has shown that great boxers have come from all races and nationalities from across the globe. No one race has the market cornered on boxing talent, to think otherwise is simply wishful thinking.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Vladimir K is a solid champion. He would have contented at any time in history. However how good he is or not is hard to judge as he's reign has come at perhaps the weakest era in boxing history. Great champions only become great by beating great opponents. Vladimir has not had that luxury. Vitali is at best a mediocre
champion with poor technique.
andrewr62 1 month ago
@andrewr62 Vitali mediocre? You must be on drugs!
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@whitetornado52 Lets'look at his opponents. See any hall of famers? How about first rate oppoents? Oh Lennox Lewis, oops looks like Vitali lost. Oh here's another, Chris Byrd,oops, Vitali lost. Beyond that second raters. His next big name opponent? The great Derick Chisora. Who? Yeah I'm impressed.
andrewr62 1 month ago
@andrewr62 Let's look at what an idiot you are. Byrd and Lewis loses were flukes. Vitali was winning both fights moron. You also conveniently leave out Wlad destroyed Byrd twice. oops wigger jackass. The Klitschkos fight the best out there and never ducked one fighter. George Foreman said Vitali is as good as any of the former champions. Shannon Briggs said Vtiali is the best he ever faced. opps jackass. Learn something about boxing then get back to me.
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@whitetornado52 - lmao... so if you beat Byrd twice you're a great fighter? Even bringing up Briggs shows what a novice you are. The Kbros.... one has a glass jaw the other a glass heart.Reading your assinine comments leads me to the conclusion that you should change your username to ' whitetrash52'. "Foreman said"... " Briggs said" GTFOH
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey the Klitschkos with their size and skill would be good to dominant in any era. Sorry you're too much of a dumb wigger asshole to know it.
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@whitetornado52 - When Briggs said that about Klitchko was he comparing him to a 50 year old Foreman?
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey Briggs also called Vitali harder than Lewis.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 - lol...Briggs was 39 when he lost a 12 rd. dec. to Vitaly, Briggs was 27 when he was k.o.d by Lewis... yep it sure sounds like Vitaly was better than Lewis.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey He had 6 years expernce when he fought Lennox, 18 years when he fought Vitali.
Briggs showed a garnite chin and a ton of heart when he fought Vitali. He simply refused to go down or be stopped. But he took a terrible beating and lost every round, the fight should have been stopped much sooner. That might be the worst beating I've ever seen a boxer take. Briggs collapsed after the fight and was hospitalized with facial fractures and a torn biceps.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 - I respect the K' bros. I guess i'm in the minority in thinking that Vitaly is the better of the two. I just dont trust W's chin against a real good heavy that can bang and willing to pay the price to land one. I wouldn't put Lewis too far ahead of Vitaly at all.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey Most people rate Vitali higher. In an interview, both brother were asked who'd win if they fought. Both agreed that if they fought on their best days, Vitali would win, although if they fought right now, Wladimir would win. Your right about Wlad's chin, but he does a good job protecting it and hasn't been knocked down in over six years. Why wouldn't you put Vitali ahead of Lennox?
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 - Lewis had that suspect jaw too, in light of that I probably would put Vitaly one notch ahead of Lewis. Glass jaws are a real negative with me, they hold up till tested and against other great heavys they would be tested.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey I used to think the same thing about Lewis. But in hindsight I don't really think that anymore. He had plenty of other fights where he got caught pretty good and didn't go down. The two fights he did lose by KO he got caught with a massive shot that could have dropped anyone. No, he didn't have the best chin in heavyweight history. That would go to Ali imo. But he wasn't exactly frail either.
bandit7498 1 month ago
@bandit7498 Lewis has some positives and some negatives. His questionable chin and kinda "big man endurance" is what holds him back imo. I know he wasn't in the 15 round era but when i rate fighters i use that standard. I dont think that he projects to have good 15 round endurance. I am of the opinion that the super heavys dont make our greatest fighters. You are right though, i wouldn't call him frail.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey Wladimir and Lewis were both taught how to protect their jaws by the same trainer, Emanuel Stewart. He's a very great trainer. Tied with Freddie Roach IMO.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 - He is a great trainer but he also taught Tommy Hearns how to protect his jaw. Trainers can only do so much for their fighter. I'm from michigan and was around Steward ( not stewart) before he even turne Hearns and Mickey Goodwin pro waaaay back. He was a very nice guy back then to everybody. His KRONK amateur teams kicked ass. W's chin is a lot more suspect than Lewis'. None of these guys are top ten of all time.
1899sharkey 1 month ago
@1899sharkey Yeah, I know he taught Hearns. He's a great trainer. He was McCall's trainer when he fought Lewis. Lewis lost badly, but Manny could still see his potential and took him under his wing and turned him into the Heavyweight champion of the world. Same thing happend to Wladimir after his first Brewster fight. Steward seems like a great guy and I'd love to meet him someday.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@whitetornado52 stop smoking so much weed man, you are paranoid like mental patient from Dunning, hahahaha
RomanMelnykBro 1 month ago
@whitetornado52 Not talking about Vladimir who I consider a good champion. I have never been impressed with Vitali. So I must be impressed becasue 2nd rater Shannon Briggs says he's the best he fought? Wow I'm so impressed. Until Vitali fights someone of qualifty he's just another champion. Not the among the greatest of all time.
Talk about idiot.
andrewr62 1 month ago
@andrewr62 You just prove that you are a completely new fan to boxing. Saying Lewis and Byrd beat Vitali is like saying Roldan knocked Hagler down. The Klitsckho's are just to good. So good, they can't lose their titles and their opponents are unable to get any fame. Most of their opponents will probably get in the hall of fame someday. Lots of contenders who never won a title (Cause there was only one) get into the hall of fame. Way to pick through them out before their career is done. Bitch.
crowley0312 1 month ago
"All big white men had a reputation for glass jaws."
Since when? I don't know where people come up with this kind of stuff. There's been both white and black heavyweights with great chins (Chuvalo, Ali, ) and glass jaws (Bobick, Patterson). A boxers ethnicity has absolutely no bearing on their ability to take a punch.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
It's all about the hunger for the sport, as a way of climbing out of poverty, or the gaining of a reputation, mostly both. On the most part, the popular sports had winners and contenders who came from a poorer background, that includes all races. As the various peoples had other opportunies, then a lot of sports ebbed and flowed with quality of the person involved. . If the USA could to this day find a great White hope, then it would really grab the publics attention, and boxing would benefit.
frankiehiyo 2 months ago
All big white men had a reputation for glass jaws. No one denies when we think of fighters we think black, but please God black kids will get bitten by the Education Bug. I'd rather have 25 black Judges and Black lawyers than one black champ. So would there Mothers. We like boxing same as we once liked cock fighting, bull baiting, hare coursing and organised dog fights but wasn't society a poor one then? As for the Klitsckos: Pass me some string so G Foreman can fight em both with ONE HAND.
ToTheBallCharles2 2 months ago
Ball For Life makes good sense. In this fight with Willard he was badly matched with a bigger, stronger man and spent 26 rounds trying to beat Willard, He was KO. and denying was a poor bid to retain the public's interest. Willard was a bum, Johnson w train, drank, was a problem, but still a top class eventer. BallforLife: Draws an accurate picture of those times meaning hard white men from mining country. Then black men from ghettos. 1960 on 12 of the all time best who had height and speed.
ToTheBallCharles2 2 months ago
"THE KLITSCHKOS STILL RULE"
The Klitschko's are simply horrible, the fact that they have such impressive records just shows you how awful the heavyweight division is today. To put it in perspective, the both of them would have had a life and death struggle with Gerry Cooney let alone someone who could actually box.
Johnl1800 2 months ago
@Johnl1800 - Thank-You. They are the best of as terrible a heavyweight division as has ever been seen. The best american heavys today wouldn't have made good sparring partners in previous eras.I keep waiting for some poor schmuck fron eastern europe to develop but i'm still waiting. Almost impossible to even develop a great heavy today.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey That's the problem right there. The conditions to create great boxers no longer exist. Olympic boxing is a joke and has been turned into point sparring karate, less pro boxers, fighting less often, spread thin over 17 divisions with 68 world "champions" etc. Guys turn pro, fatten their record against creampuffs, win a title and then go into virtual semi-retirement for the rest of their careers. You can't be great competing once a year vs. second rate opposition.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Not everyone does that though. Some people want all the titles. Other's are super active, like that Thai Flyweight guy.
I think you made a lot of good points on race. But I've got to disagree with you on the Klitschko's. They're easily two of the best Heavyweights of all time. Do you think every fighter was popular when they were active? That their opponent's were all considered world class? No. The HW division could be at it's best. They're bigger and quicker than ever before.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 Technically both Klitschko's are simply horrible. Vitali for example, has terrible footwork he steps with the wrong foot, crosses his feet, and is incapable of stepping in or out behind his punches. When he throws a punch with either hand he drops the other to his hip. He frequently drops his punching hand to his hip after he throws a punch because he's over extending his shoulders beyond his hips which results in follow through. cont.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
Vitali has decent power due to his sheer size but does not properly set his feet or put his hips into his punches. These guys are supposed to be champions yet they cannot competently execute even the most basic of fundamental boxing techniques consistently or correctly. The technical skills in boxing today in general are the worst that I have seen them in the 40 years that I have been following the sport.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
Hw are bigger but quicker hell no. Many of these guys are bloated on steroids/hgh or are just simply fat and could/should be anywhere from 20-50 lighter then they are. Size in and of itself is over rated to an absurd degree. Every other hw fight today looks the same, 2 big lumbering oafs pawing away at each other and falling into endless clinches. A guy like Gerry Cooney (no world beater mind you) would beat anyone that the Klits. bros. have and would be a dominant champ today too.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 you are an idiot.
whitetornado52 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@whitetornado52 "you are an idiot."
Ad hominem- to attack the man who presents an argument rather than the argument itself.
Since you obviously can't adequately address anything that I've posted name calling appears to be about the extent of your argument.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 following boxing for 40 years? Then you must be a complete moron. It's something you are absolutely clueless about.
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@whitetornado52 I notice that aside from name calling that you aren't able to address anything that I posted concerning Vitali poor technical skills. You haven't because you can't because you have no idea what you are talking about or looking at. I doubt that you could coherently articulate even the most basic of boxing tech, if your life depended on it. If you honestly think that Vitali's footwork etc is fundamentally correct then obviously you are the one who is the clueless.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Technical skills don't mean shit. Who cars about his footwork? Vitali's style may not be pretty but it's very effective. The bottom line is winning moron. Vitali is a champion and one of all time greats. Shut up idiot
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@whitetornado52 Again with the name calling because you have nothing else to fall back on. Your behavior is like that of a young child when told that there is no Santa Claus. You are either painfully ignorant or a troll, either way you are obviously not worth responding to.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 I figured you would have nothing else to say. Vitali just wins and you lost. Goodbye dumb ass.
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 You seem determined to downsize the Klitsckho's. No one is 100% perfect at everything, so you attack their footwork, possibly the most worthless factor if you do everything else good. They don't even need it because they are always taller than their opponents. You don't realize how quick some of these big guys are. They are naturaly big men, they train 365 days a year though. Not fat at all. Cooney couldn't compete above Crusierweight today.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 I don't have any problem with them I'm just calling it as I see it. Everything starts from the ground up if your balance and footwork is poor it causes a chain reaction the rest of the way. Their punching mechanics, defense etc. are also equally poor. A great record does not = a great fighter, in this case it's more indicative of the simply awful caliber of the hw today.
Cooney was 6' 6" and his best weight was 225-230lbs. he would have to cut a leg off to make cw.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 See, critics like you focus on the flaws of current fighters and the strenghs of past ones.
Vitali the current fighter: He has terrible defense
Vitali the former fighter: He had a garnite chin.
No on'es perfect, not even Robinson.
Doesn't take a genius to insult their opponents. You call the fighters today bad, really the Klitschko's are just that good that they can humiliate the destroy their opponents easily. Most people who insults todays HWs have never seen them fight,
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "No ones perfect, not even Robinson."
You can nitpick anyone to death if you want to even Robinson. I've seen films of Robinson stepping with the wrong foot, Pep dropping his hands etc. No is perfect 100% of the time. Everyone's mechanics break down when fatigue and or age set in. The difference is that great fighters do things right most of the time, ordinary fighters do things wrong most of the time.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "Most people who insults todays HWs have never seen them fight" I have seen them fight, that's the problem, that's why I and most other people criticize them.
"Klitschko's are just that good"
Even with mediocre technique it's easy to look good against guys who are offering little more resistance than a heavy bag, especially when you also enjoy the size advantage.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "critics like you focus on the flaws of current fighters and the strenghs of past ones."
I'm not some old timer who wants to rant about the "good old days". The NFL teams from the 1960's would be lucky to beat a good college team today. I only wish that today's fighters were better than ever and would have no problem saying so if it were true.
Today you have less boxers fighting less often. There used to be 1 champ for every 600+ pros, today there is 1 for every 60
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 It is true for boxing. Boxing started out as two people trying the punch one another. Naturally, the most heavy people would be the most exciting. But as time went on, fighters got more smart. Smart fighters are pretty rare in the HW division, but the Klitschko's are two of them. It may be a turn off or misleading to see big guys be technical, but that's what winner's do. If there was one champ, EVERYONE would be making a hell of a lot less money.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "It is true for boxing"
Sorry but no. I know where you're coming from though because 30+ years ago I used to say the very same things. "All athletes today are better, the boxers of the past would get destroyed today, why would every sport improve except boxing? etc." I still have the letters that used to write to the local papers (in the dark ages before the internet) and laugh at them when I realize today how little that I knew back then.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Please elaborate.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "If there was one champ, EVERYONE would be making a hell of a lot less money."
I don't buy that for a second. If there was one champion per division then maybe holding a title would actually mean something and a true title fight between the top contenders would be a major event. It's because of the proliferation of titles/weight classes that guys can get by calling themselves "champions" while avoiding fighting the best. What available talent there is is spread thin.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Think about it. Who would want to be a boxer knowing there was only one belt in the world? They're chances of winning it are super thin. If it's an inactive champion, they could spend most of their career in line waiting for a shot. No one would want to be a boxer. Back than, few had the dream of becoming a world champion. They did it for what little money they could make, and if they happend to be good, MAYBE win the world title. Boxing would truly die nowadays if that happend.
crowley0312 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@crowley0312 "Boxing would truly die nowadays if that happend"
Boxing thrived as a sport when there was less titles not more. Part of the reason that it has declined so drastically in popularity from where it was is the proliferation of titles/weight classes. The titles have become so de-valued that they hardly mean anything anymore. The primary reason for their creation and continued existence is to generate sanctioning fees for the alphabet orginizations.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "They're chances of winning it are super thin."
That's the way it should be! If any and everybody who is even halfway decent gets to call themselves a "champion" then whats the point? Does it really mean anything anymore?
The odds of winning an Olympic medal, the Super Bowl, being the very best in the world at anything should be "super thin". Think about how it would ultimately affect other sports if they handed out multiple Lombardi Trophys, gold medals etc.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Not everybody, just 4 people out of millions. Consider who would want to be a boxer. It's low paying if your not at least fighting for the title or in main events. Champions fight eachother all the time to. There's also the Lineal belt, which puts the others to shame. Olympians get paid decently just for representing. Same with pro football players. Those guys make a fucking ton, even the bad teams. All athletes need money. Also, you have not elaborated about your first comment.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "Also, you have not elaborated about your first comment."
Not trying to be a dick here, but I posted so many over the last few days I'm not sure which comment you're referring to
Johnl1800 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Johnl1800 "It is true for boxing"
Sorry but no. I know where you're coming from though because 30+ years ago I used to say the very same things. "All athletes today are better, the boxers of the past would get destroyed today, why would every sport improve except boxing? etc." I still have the letters that used to write to the local papers (in the dark ages before the internet) and laugh at them when I realize today how little that I knew back then.
I replied, "Please elaborate."
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "just 4 people out of millions"
I understand your point but I don't see it that way. In the past when there were more active boxers and less titles and divisions. Depending on the time period there was one champ for every 600 to 1000+ pro boxers. Today with more titles/less boxers there is 1 for every 60. The talent is spread too thin, the best don't/won't fight the best, everyone wants the most money with the least risk, and it's the fans and the sport that suffers as a result.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 There are thousands and thousands in each division. And like I said, there's the lineal title. The lineal title is considered the world title. That's why new champions rising through ranks fight the #1 guy, than move on. Getting all the belts is to time consuming for the lower weights. You'll out grow the weight before that happens. And not every champion takes easy fights. Some go for other champions and hard fights. There's risk-takers and non risk-takers.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "There are thousands and thousands in each division."
Most of these guys are technically "active" because they maybe had one fight a year or two ago and have maybe 10 fights total. Most people don't realize the simple staggering amount of boxing that was being staged years ago. There was a time that New York state alone held more fights in 1 year than are held worldwide in 1 year today. NY state alone had more licensed boxers than are licensed worldwide today also.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Those NY fighters were fighting for pennys. Naturally they all had to fight very often. There's more value in everything now though. No one wants to go back to every boxer in the world except for 8 making pennys. We're more evolved. Clearly Mayweather's pay-per-views records show how much less money is worth, not proof he is the most popular ever. Boxing may have been more popular then, but consider how many people would be willing to get their face bashed for so little.
crowley0312 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@crowley0312 "how many people would be willing to get their face bashed for so little."
Well when I was fighting in mma (1999-2001) we were fighting for almost nothing and they never seemed to have any problem filling a fight card. Even though the pay has increased as the sport has grown in popularity the preliminary guys on most small mma shows are fighting for as little as $100-500. It still isn't uncommon for main event guys to be fighting for as little as $1,000-3,000.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@crowley0312 "It's low paying if your not at least fighting for the title or in main events."
Hell it's always been that way! When I was still running my mma/grappling gym I would get guys who would tell me that they wanted to make mma their "career". I told them the same thing that I heard as a kid when I used to box "If don't have the talent to be a world class fighter just forget it. You'll just end up as a piece of meat for the promoters to use up and discard."
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 True, this is not an easy sport to achieve much in. Also, I don't think you realize how long there has been more than one belt. There has been two belts forever. Most of the past lower division champions only held the BA or BC belts. And out of curiosity, when would you say it becomes clear you have the talent to be a world class fighter?
crowley0312 1 month ago
@crowley0312 It's hard to say since exactly since there are so many factors involved, receiving the proper training, effective management, work ethic, mental toughness and discipline etc. Many a potential champion was ruined by improper handling/matchmaking. Also boxing is unlike other sports in that to really go anywhere you have to have the natural talent which I compare to being able to sing or dance. It's different from raw athleticism.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
I've seen many athletic guys whom were terrible because that lacked the necessary boxing talent, couldn't take a punch, weren't mentally tough etc.. There have been many great boxing champions were not particularly gifted athletes. When you occasionally get guys like Ali and Robinson who were both gifted, athletic, iron willed etc. is when you have something really special.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
Usually a guy gets one good run at the top ten/winning a title but you never know. Sometimes you get a guy that everyone has written off like Jersey Joe Walcott who eventually turns it around. Everybody fights fairly easy opposition on the way up but you'll find out whether or not you have what it takes when you eventually have to up the level of your opposition and start fighting guys who can actually fight back and don't fall down the first time that you hit them.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 Heck, even if it's an active champion, they could wait for years and years. More champions, more opportunities, more prize fights, more boxers, etc.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 might sound crazy, but it's true. Some fans are just terrible. I never claimed their records were great btw. It's sad how some people look for anything they can to downsize fighters.
I do take back what I said about Cooney. He could probably break the top 10. If he fought either Klitschko's, he'd get KO'd in the first few rounds.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 George Forman said Vtiali is as good as any of the former champions. Lennox Lewis said Wlad has good footwork. Apparently nobody sees it like you. Saying their defence is poor is also laughable. I suggest you find another interest. Boxing is something you know absolutley nothing about
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@whitetornado5 Find me one boxing instructional from any era that shows that stepping with the wrong foot, crossing your feet, overextending your shoulders/upper body far out beyond your hips, etc.(things that the Klitschko's do routine from first round to last) is an example of "correct" balance and footwork because that is something that I would like to see.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
@Johnl1800 I like to see fighters that win and the Klitschkos would do so in any era.
whitetornado52 1 month ago
@whitetornado52 Fair enough, everybody likes to see winning fighters, I don't know about the "any era" part though. To show that I can be fair I could see the Klit bros. being a real problem for some of the very small hw of the past due to their ht/reach advantage. Much the same way that Carnera was able to beat the more technical Tommy Loughran. While he was able to outbox him Loughran simply lacked the size/power to keep Primo from ultimately bullying and mauling him around.
Johnl1800 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@whitetornado52 "Boxing is something you know absolutley nothing about"
I've forgotten more about boxing than you will ever know.
"I suggest you find another interest"
I suggest you learn to formulate a coherent argument. Other than Ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority you have nothing to add.
Maybe you should start by picking a book so you have some idea what you are talking about. Might I suggest "Boxing for Dummies" and "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Boxing".
Johnl1800 1 month ago
Comment removed
Davidsondaini 2 months ago
@balla4life215. So wot you saying? Black people are better then white? Bit racist?
wesboss1 3 months ago
@wesboss1 Yup, you hit it right on the head. Because I said Blacks have historically been the best athletes, they are clearly better people *rolls eyes* SMH at you ignorant idiots. Go get an education and come back.
balla4life215 2 months ago
I LOOKED UR VIDEOS AND I KNOW WHY U TALK ABOUT RACES
U ARE SOME NAZI SHIT OR SOME SHIT LIKE DAT
smokinlefthook 3 months ago
Jack Johnson did not throw the fight. If he was blocking the sun to show that he was able to continue, why didn't he get up? Why would he get another title shot if he threw it? And why the hell would he fight for 26 rounds before finally falling?
AlexExodia 3 months ago
Comment removed
AlexExodia 3 months ago
@AlexExodia WHY R U TALKING ABOUT BLACK OR WHITE?
ARE U A FRUSTRATED WHITE PUSSSY?
I TRAIN WITH SOME WHITE GUYS THEY CAN BOX AND THEY HATE KLITCHKOS, WHY? CUZ KLITCHKOS SUCKS
THEY ARE BORING THERE STYLES SUCKS ITS NOT ABOUT BLACK OR WHITE U DUMBASS FAGGOT STOP BEING A FAG
(FORGIV MY ENGLISH)
smokinlefthook 3 months ago
@smokinlefthook notice how these black bigots can't accept the Klitschkos. Poor babies
whitetornado52 2 months ago
@AlexExodia AND I LOVE KLITCHKOS AS HUMAN BEING
THEY ARE SOME REAL GOOD MENS
I JUST DONT LIKE EM AS BOXERS
smokinlefthook 3 months ago
@AlexExodia It's not racist to say, in general, black athletes are superior to white athletes; because this is true. While there are a few exceptions, boxing certainly isn't one of them. However given this time frame, it's not hard to imagine jack johnson losing, considering the black population available to fight was very shallow and neither fighter was well trained. But don't get ridiculous, no race has dominated the sport like black and hispanic fighters have, particularly black fighters.
balla4life215 3 months ago
@balla4life215 Look up the list of current boxing champions on Wikipedia. Championships are how you measure success. The following champions are all white Europeans: Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Alexander Povetkin, Marco Huck, Krzysztof Włodarczyk, Denis Lebedev, Nathan Cleverly, Károly Balzsay, Brian Magee, Carl Froch, Lucian Bute, Robert Stieglitz, Felix Sturm, Dmitry Pirog, Zaurbek Baysangurov, Viacheslav Senchenko, and Ricky Burns.
AlexExodia 3 months ago
@AlexExodia That list is complete bullshit. There's a higher abundance of white fighters today because all the elite black athletes are either in football, basketball, or baseball. Boxing has been on the decline and no longer offers nearly equal appeal as those sports. Back in the golden era of boxing, when the sport was much more respected and there were gyms open across the U.S, black athletes DOMINATED period. Look at all the BEST: Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Liston, Louis, Tyson etc. etc. etc.
balla4life215 3 months ago
@balla4life215 - Take your black dominating ass to a prison channel where the blacks really dominate. Blacks didn't dominate anything until the Irish and Jews educated theirselves and went on to other occupations. Skin pigmentation is not a necessary asset for making a great fighter.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
Comment removed
Davidsondaini 2 months ago
@Davidsondaini - You obviously have trouble comprehending what you read. Any racial comments from me are always replys to some ignorant racial comment. Johnson is one of my favorite fighters of all time and have defended him on youtube consistently.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey Sorry for the misunderstanding then, must be a mix up.
Davidsondaini 2 months ago
@balla4life215 Klitschkos rule all. Too bad bigot.
whitetornado52 2 months ago
@whitetornado52 Hmmm where should I begin? That Klitschkos isn't the number 1 p4p fighter, that he isn't a top all time heavyweight (and therefore actually rules very little), that this era of boxing is much weaker than it was in the 60's, that you're clearly white and over sensitive, or how you clearly are not intelligent enough to argue with me so you resort to name calling in pathetic hopes of making me angry? Ahh I can't choose.
balla4life215 2 months ago
@balla4life215 another silly negro that can't accept the Klitschkos. Black Americans are the most racist people on earth. The Klitschkos with their size and skill would be good to dominant in any era. With the fall of the iron curtain black dominance in the heavyweight division is over.
whitetornado52 2 months ago
@whitetornado52 Hey whitetornado, U mad bro?? LOL I'm not even going to justify the rest of your nonsense with a response. I'll leave you alone and let you enjoy masturbating to the Klitschkos hahaha
balla4life215 2 months ago
@balla4life215 theres a lot of black n hispanic fighters cuz boxing was always a sport for the poor to get out of poverty as the turn of the century came whites became more privileged n the prevalence of white collar job boomed so there was no need to turn to fighting being a specific color doesnt make u a great fighter hard work n dedication do
SoundwaveSuperior373 3 months ago
@SoundwaveSuperior373 This is complete nonsenese. Blacks weren't even ALLOWED to fight when the sport was created, and were constantly held back throughout it's history. Not only were they at times not even allowed to fight, but even then they where they often still weren't given title shots! Just look at all the TOP fighters and see who's dominant: Ali, Louis, Tyson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, etc. No offense but at least 8/10 best boxers ever are black. No coincidence.
balla4life215 3 months ago
@balla4life215 i think its very much a coincidence as much as how there is so many white hockey players and asian kick boxers sure blacks were held back before but nowadays white people barely even attempts to make money through boxing demographics for anything is just a by product of socioeconomic if ur goin to pull the race card n say oh they r great boxers just cuz they r black then ppl mite as well say oh all the greatest scientist r great because they r white
SoundwaveSuperior373 3 months ago
@SoundwaveSuperior373 Did you just use hockey, a canadian sport, as your counterexample?? lol that's funny. I hate to break it to you but a canadian sport being a majority white isn't that surprising....go figure. Your scientist example is a bit more valid, however I would argue that's more a result of poor educational opportunities for minorities in general in America as opposed to white people being naturally better. And I believe India (not white people) is the top rated country in science...
balla4life215 2 months ago
@balla4life215 actually usa is the number one followed by countries like germany japan china etc india doesn't even come close in science n the socio economics of america has changed whites r now privileged middle class there is no reason 4 them to enter boxing all the fresh young talents r now poor kids from the projects who r tryin to use boxing to break out of poverty
SoundwaveSuperior373 2 months ago
@SoundwaveSuperior373 Whites have always made up the majority of the privileged middle class in this country, i have no idea what your point is. The reason boxing is on the decline is because it currently doesn't have appeal to ANYONE, not just white people. Why box when you can play basketball or football and have a chance to earn more money with less health risks? Boxing simply isn't drawing the elite athletes from ANY race anymore. When it did, blacks dominated, it's a fact just accept it.
balla4life215 2 months ago
@balla4life215 white ppl were poor as hell in the turn of the century the white boxers were all miners dock workers cargo movers traveling freight trains fighting just so they can eat blacks didnt start dominating until the 60s n that was after the marciano era where the american middle class was emerging by that time whites were already started to get better jobs n didnt need to fight boxing was always a poor mans sport
SoundwaveSuperior373 2 months ago
Comment removed
Davidsondaini 2 months ago
@SoundwaveSuperior373 There have/always will be a plethora of poor white ppl in this country, even now. You're looking for explanations where they don't exist. The reason there were more dominant white fighters early on is because they were the only ones groomed to fight! Guys like Jack Johnson often weren't even given opportunities in fear of "darkening" the division. This discrimination was even used against sugar ray robinson, the best fighter ever, and he fought BEFORE the 60's.
balla4life215 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@balla4life215 majority of ppl who enter boxing competitions r poor kids from the hood im just saying race doesnt determine how great u r saying race automatically makes u a great boxer is just racist
SoundwaveSuperior373 2 months ago
@SoundwaveSuperior373 I certainly never said being black made anyone a good fighter automatically, there are a ton of TERRIBLE black fighters today and in history. The point is, the most elite boxers are all black, and I'm not going to ignorantly say that's just a coincidence.
balla4life215 1 month ago
@balla4life215 Well, you look at kickboxing where the top fighters are European and Asian, or you can look at MMA, where the top fighters are American, Brazilian, and Japanese. Now race didn't factor into why they are successful. They were just at the right place at the right time. Same goes for boxing.
SoundwaveSuperior373 1 month ago
@SoundwaveSuperior373 Well boxing and MMA are two very different things, but even if you look at UFC, which is the best of the best as far as Mixed Martial Arts....the best is Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, etc....Black fighters!! Either way I'm not saying there aren't great fighters in other races. There are tons. I'm just saying, the most elite fighters have typically been black.
balla4life215 1 month ago
@balla4life215 You forgot Georges St. Pierre (Defenitly goes above Jones) and Frankie Edgar. Both races have good and bad, but white people seem to have the more success in MMA, despite the single best fighter being black.
crowley0312 1 month ago
@balla4life215 what a bigot, a typical black racist. THE KLITSCHKOS STILL RULE HAHA
whitetornado52 2 months ago