The iss ue with Cleveland Williams was that although he had a very good left hand, he held it way too low and was open to the Liston right over the top...but there is no doubt he was a marvelous physical speciman for the time....you can't throw a jab and then drop your hand to your waist...
@harryandsimba Well Vitali Klitschko at full pelt is knackered by round 4. Ali could dance and dance for at least 10.
Ali v Klitschko, Ali would simply dance and jab staying away from Vitali until he wore him out and then he'd score at will and win on points or tire him out so much he'd be able to knock him out. He'd also probaby cut him up quite bad.
Even though Williams was beaten here, you can see that he is a far superior fighter to the one that fought Ali in 1966. Williams had been shot by a highway patrolman prior to fighting Ali.
Here you can see Williams is fast, a great jab and hook, and quite good at catching the jab with his open right hand, not to mention a very hard hitter, as you can see when he wobbles Liston early in the round. A very under-appreciated fighter who is sadly based on his fight with Ali which isnt fair to him.
back in those days the ref were morons- he let the fight go even though the guy was on queer street. listen was cool- he was owned by the mob- trained at the thunderbird in vegas owned by the mob- 2 mafia guys ran boxing -blinkie palermo and frankie carbo-listen got the hot shot in vegas and like many others he went ot the grave with secrets
@mjwiech Probably Klitschkos would not. Ali, Foreman, Frazier, and Liston would have dispatched the Ukrainians within five rounds. Even top contenders like Cleveland Williams, Jerry Quarry, Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle were more than skilled enough to beat those two. Then again, that's just my opinion...
@duprez2: Thanks for your input. You give a very level headed analysis of the facts. (something that is quite often rare when discussing boxing greats). As an aside, I agree entirely with you that Ali really proved his mettle and heart in the "Rumble in the Jungle" - to do this day, I don't understand how he withstood the barrage of body shots etc from the "monster" that Foreman was ... On that balmy night, he (Ali) earned the right to join the legion of boxing legends.
One of my most favorite fights of all time!. It has everything, action, drama, cool headedness under ferocious attack, and sweet, sweet revenge!. For me Sonny will always be one of the G.O.A.Ts - even though he is/was given very little credit/coverage by the general media. Great, great champion - always will be in my books!
@takashijoh Liston knocked him out in the first fight,how did he get revenge?But a great fight,the first one was better though...it lasted a round longer.
@TheGatorfan93 No, you misunderstand me. I meant the revenge that occurs after the ferocious onslaught at 4:55. make no mistake, The "big cat" was a very, very heavy hitter. Liston himself said that by far, Cleveland Williams was the hardest puncher he had ever fought. Liston took a pounding in the first part of the second round and he had to cover up and he even staggered a little. The he bit hard on his gum shield and let hell loose on Williams - thats the "revenge" I was talking about :)
@takashijoh I actually prefer the close 12 round or old 15 round fights.Because you can always go back and maybe see something different.Did this guy win?Did that guy?I gotta watch again.Fights like ali's 3 fights with norton,holmes/norton,leonard/duran l,leonard/hearns ll,holmes/spinks ll as examples.Great momentum switches,dramatic and controversial.
@TheGatorfan93 By "revenge", I am simply using the term as used by Flloyd Patterson, when he referred to boxing as a "revenge sport" - i.e. you hit me now, and "I'mma gonna get you back". I tend to like shorter, action packed fights for two reasons: 1. You get to the conclusion quicker (and possibly, more emphatically), 2). There is less damage likely to be done to either boxer - compared to a long, drawn out battle. For those reasons, I still prefer the second fight to the first
This is a FIGHT!. Gives me shivers just watching it - even after all these years. I hope they earned good money (I doubt it - which is a shame, considering the risks involved). Sonny Liston was one of the best heavy weights of all time - its a shame he never got the credit he deserved. I don't know if Ali could have beaten him when he was in his prime.
@takashijoh Both Sonny and Cleveland were passed their primes when they fought Ali. I think Sonny's two brutal fights against Cleveland really established him as an all time great champion. Ali, incidently, didn't get his just do until he beat a prime Foreman while past his prime.
Notice at the beginning of the second round. Williams was blinking badly. It was rumored that Listens camp put something in the water of appoints that were threatening. This also happened in Ali vs listen 1.
There is a follow-up comment I'd like to make that I think no one will disagree with: the Sonny Liston who fought Ali was not the same fighter who here takes a barrage of punches from one of the hardest hitters of that era and then just moments later crumples his opponent to the mat. The Liston on this video would still have lost to Ali, but I think he would have delivered more punishment to Ali in the process.
I never realized before that Sonny Liston has the same upper body movements as Joe Frazier, with less speed and more force but the styles are identical!
@FijneWIET You're straight up Blind. They have no similarities whatsoever. Frazier crouched kept moving forward, bobbed and weaved, rarely through a left jab or right hand to the head and had a killer left hook that he used almost exclusively. Sonny had a straight up style with a powerful long left jab, followed by a straight right hand to the head. This was how Sonny fought. You need glasses bad!
I could not agree with you. Williams in that diminished capacity fought for the World Heavyweight Title on Nov. 14 1966 at the Houston Asterdome. He was a force. A man with tremendous courage and heart to survive that near death incident and come back beats Ali 3 year layoff. A bullet entering a body of .357 totally changed him and his physical capacity. He lost so much but was a courageous fighter to stand up to the best of Muhammad Ali & keep coming. That is how the Big Cat will be remembered
@MrTClubber Bullets don't do that much damage, only if they exit you, If they stay inside of you, it's no big deal. I have 4 bullets in me and I don't feel any differently. Forget the back aches, the strained neck the aching chest, the throbbing leg, the arthritic hand, nah, bullets don't do anything to you. I'm kidding. Cleveland passed all examine, Ali just whipped his ass that's all.
Williams was shot at point blank range by a policeman, using a .357 magnum - the baddest pistol at that time.
The doctor who operated on him said that he had never seen a physical specimen like Williams. The bullet would have, at least, crippled an ordinary man, but Williams abdominal wall was 3 times thicker than that of an ordinary man !
And, after he recovered from that, he fought Ali !
Liston's prime was robbed of his prime, by being in out of jail in his mid 20's.Remember,he was at least 4 to 5 years older than what he was listed at the time.Ali was at his apex when he fought liston,but liston threw his shoulder out,and the doctors had to stop it.But he had his moments, won the 2nd round,came back and hurt ali in the 3rd(though he still lost the round) won the 4th and 5th.In the 6th you can see liston in pain throwing the jab.The second fight was a dive,its pretty obvious.
@TheGatorfan93 Valid comments, Gator, but Liston was simply outclassed by Ali, who at 22 was already the fastest heavyweight who had yet lived. I question that Sonny won Round 2. He only won 4&5 because Ali was temporarily blind. In 6 Ali began to systematically dismantle him. Though his shoulder injury was real, I think Sonny quit on his stool because he realized that if he continued, Ali's prediction of an 8th round knockout would come true, and it was just more than he could bear.
@Donal111 I beg to disagree. Both the brothers are too big for any of the heavyweights of the last few decades. Forman would have had the best chance. The rest, I don't think so. They are too big, too skilled and too strong. And yes, it would have taken Williams two weeks to land a shot against the K brothers.
@Coachwkr Klitschkos would have beaten either of these guys pretty easily. No one likes to admit it, because heavyweight fights are so boring, but the guys today are just too big for these smaller fighters. The fights suck though. But, Liston is so slow, and so small compared to these modern guys, he take an ugly beating, and quit. He liked to quit.
Williams would probably suffer a first round knockout. He liked to get knocked out. He refused to bring his left up.
@TA152H01 The Klitschko's are too SLOW for these two guys. Mike Tyson would've beaten both Klitschko's on the same night in his prime. Cleveland Williams might be the most underrated heavyweight ever. Tyson and Liston would have been interesting. Tough to call that one. But Ali would beat all of them!
@jabnhook2 You're kidding right? Liston is much slower than Wladimir, and is over half a foot shorter. He's gruesomely slow.
Tyson would also be tiny, but I'd give him a chance because of his speed. Probably Vitali would ass-rape him though, because Tyson doesn't have the punch to knock him out, and he'd runthouse him, and Tyson would enjoy quitting.
Ali couldn't handle big guys with jabs. Liston's was too slow, but he'd have problems with Wladimir.
@TA152H01 No, I'm not kidding. Today's "Fast Food" heavyweights don't match up to the 60's and 70's Champions or most top 10 Contenders. Last names only: Ali..Frazier..Foreman..Lyle..Shavers..Norton..Cooney.. Holmes..Liston..Williams..Bonavena..Witherspoon..I could list more. The men listed had some/or all of the tools necessary to beat the robot-like Klitschko Brothers. YouTube has videos of most of these men. You need to do your homework. At least the K-bros. are in shape. Robots!!
@jabnhook2 Unlike you, I've seen this guys fight when they were fighting, except for Liston.
Cooney? Really? LOL. Foreman is slower than the Klits. Shavers blew donkeys. Norton? Are you serious? He couldn't fight the big boys. Frazier would have been thrown around like a child. His best weight was 205. Lyle sucked balls. He had nothing. Ali was better, but would have trouble because of the styles. Witherspoon? Watch Bonecrusher, crush him.
@TA152H01 the Klitschko's are a little underrated, they can fight and have an awkwardness about them which makes them hard to fight, but both of these guys i think would have beaten them because they would have backed them up and neither Klitschko fights well in reverse. Williams was a little chinny so im less certain about him, but he was fearless, and quite fast with a good jab and hook. Liston I feel would win handily and having an 84 inch reach I feel would be able to reach them.
@jimmyg141 Liston was sooooooo slow, and he had no heart. He'd also look like a child in with a man. He wasn't a big guy, only 6'0". Once he got hit, he'd quit. He couldn't handle a guy that big.
Both Klitschkos look awkward, but they got quick hands, and they're so damn big. They're 250s with very, very low bodyfat. It's not like Ali at 220, which was somewhat fat, or even Liston. These guys are ripped. I just watch Briggs fight Vitali. He is a huge man, but he looked tiny.
@TA152H01 thats bullshit every champion has heart,liston took big hits from cleveland williams in both fights ,,and early in his career fought with a broken jaw ,ur judging his whole career on the ali fight yawn, Ali,not a past it shot briggs,wlad Klitschkos in trouble if were goin to judge him on his defeats,seen him fight in madison square garden,,nearly fell asleep ,people said vital quit against bird,,he agood fighter but he is fighting Dereck Chisora in his nxt fight,says it all
@theirishbloke Actually, a lot of guys don't have a lot of heart. Liston quit twice. That's not heart. Sometimes a guy is so talented, he's never tested. Liston quit when he was really tested, and felt hopeless. Guys like Ali, Leonard, Holmes, Frazier etc... would never quit.
Your last line is purely idiotic. That's like saying Ali wasn't a great fighter because he fought Evangelista. You must know better than to say something like that.
@TA152H01 Dereck Chisora who has lost his last 2fights is another added on to a long list so to compare the Klitschkos in the same breath as Ali, now thats purely idiotic,,there average to say the least compared to Ali .
@theirishbloke Saying the competition makes someone lousy is plain stupid. It just doesn't prove anything one way or another.
It's hard to compare guys from different eras. These guys are so much bigger and stronger than Ali, Ali would look like a child in against them. They're near 250 pounds ripped. Ali couldn't weigh 215 with that type of body fat.
Size makes up for a lot. These guys are huge. Their fights suck, but their conditioning and size create problems
Watching this I can't help thinking, where have heavyweights like this gone? People think bigger is better, but these two weighed in at around 212 lbs and were fast, agressive, skillful and hard hitting, whereas these 250 lb tubs now are like watching paint dry. If Sonny was around now he would wipe the floor with todays heavyweights.
Nutrition and Training IMO. David Tua was 205 in his first fight, yet is 247 against Lewis for the belt. Lennox Lewis was 221 when he started pro, but gained more weight as his career progressed, was 256 in his last bout but still not overweight.
IMO if these 250lbs fighters were around back in the 60s, they would be a lot lighter, sticking to what they should be at the start of their career alll the way through.
@chunkyscotty couldn't agree more. there too big the heavyweights today and alot are not even in shape. i was just thinking "they don't make um like that anymore" hopefully the smaller, lighter heavyweights will come back round one day.
WOW....this must have been a LONG time ago. Ole "Bubba" is the ring card guy..... LOL
I gotta respectfully disagree with you @Kedbuka on Liston throwing that 1st fight w/ Ali. Liston tried his damness to get to Ali but couldn't and then he and his corner cheated w/ the ointment and still couldn't get to him. It's in the records that wasn't the first time he and his corner did that. As a kid i believed the "Phantom punch" theory but after the age of computers,,,,Yeah he threw that fight. IMO
This performance is stunning proof that Liston is one of the top 5 heavyweights of all time. The two fights with Ali were complete jokes. Williams displayed more power here than Ali ever had and Liston took those blows without a flinch. Sonny had not only the most powerful punch of his day, but a great chin. That scary two handed assault from 6:15 to 6:21 says it all. Ali is damn lucky he never faced THIS Liston
@BloozeDaddy76 : Ali did face this Liston, and whipped him conclusively with superior hand and foot speed. This performance by Liston here against Williams is awesome, no question about it. That's why Ali was such a big underdog. But he beat Liston fair and square. He rocked Sonny early and kept beating him to the punch. Watch the fight. Ali was really something special.
@Kedbuka I agree Ali was something special but I think Sonny threw both fights. You can see it especially in the second one, even Ali knew it, hence Ali standing over him shouting at him! I do think Ali would of beaten him anyway when Liston was that old but a prime liston I dont think so. Ali fought Liston 4 years after this fight he didnt face this Liston dude!
@1outlawz : There's some dispute as to Liston's birthdate--he was either 32 or 36 when he fought Ali the first time. Either way, he had just knocked out Floyd Patterson (again) the year before and his skills had not eroded much, if at all, by the time he faced Clay, whose style was perfect for a slow-footed fighter like Sonny who brought the fight to him. I'd still bet on Gaseous Cassius.
@Kedbuka Yeah I hear you man. It was a fight that I think could go either way, as all fights can but I like Liston more. If I was a betting man I would bet Sonny. The one fight I wish we had was Louis vs Ali though, now that would of been great! I give that one to Louis definatly. He would of caught him sooner or later. You can't choose Ali on that one bro or I will hunt you down!
@1outlawz : I should not like to disagree w/you regarding Louis and Ali...so I won't! That made me laugh, brother. And anyway, I love Joe Louis, a gentleman slugger. Ring Mag called him the "most correct puncher of all time." I think that's a most accurate statement. Not only correct, but in his prime, very quick-handed too. Right on, later man.
@Kedbuka Good lad! We agree on something then! I can watch Louis fight for hours and I do. And its about time someone else commented on his hand speed too. Later, take care dude!
I really believe NO MAN ALIVE could out slug a prime Tyson , which are the only tactics Sonny would to fight Mike with . I think Liston's defence would put him in big trouble with Mike , then again Tyson's come forward style could play right in to a puncher like Sonny's hands . But I pick Mike by stoppage maybe 5 to 7 rounds
@delirious44 i am a firm believer that a prime tyson would have beat lennox and holyfield but liston was an animal, he would beat up george when george was young in their sparring sessions, he took cleveland williams hardest shots and didnt blink, i think he would have beat tyson pretty badly even if he was in his prime.
I don't know man , No one even attempted to slug with a prime Tyson , He was beatable if you boxed him BUT TOE TO TOE he was just too quick and Sonny was maybe just to slow for Mike , Don't get me wrong if any one could be tough enough to trade with Mike , Liston would be the man , I give Mike the edge because of his speed and accuracy though . BUT REGARDLESS of who I think would win , that's one fight I would love to have seen
Remember if the Cleveland Williams had come back from a shooting incident that nearly killed him and he managed to come back to earn a title shot against Muhammad Ali what a force he was then to fight Liston. Liston would have know he was the only heavyweight at the time that could handle him. If he was able comeback what a force he would have been against Liston. He would have been man to be counted a real warrior with extreme heart and determination his fight with Liston where legendary
Love liston's style. Seems to have gone out of the game. Not many fighters use the shoulder defensively anymore. Mayweather has has had huge success with it. Liston would be undisputed champ these days.
To deepplay1: Good observation. Liston kept his chin tucked in close to his left shoulder, which made him hard to hit cleanly. He was a pretty nifty boxer but it was his raw, menacing power that got everyone's attention. Until Clay/Ali came along, it didn't seem like anyone could beat him. He was a bad dude. This fight here is a demonstration of it. He walloped the Big 'Cat, who was a feared fighter in his own right.
damn. sonny Liston is a beast. powerful jab and good hooks. could knock you out with his right or his left. or man handle you on the inside. Wide arsenal, and big men.
With big punchers, the length of a fight doesn't reflect it's competitiveness. A 10 or even a 15 round bout can be totally one-sided but these fights between Liston and Williams were very comeptitive. They were decided by Liston's superior ability to take a punch, which makes the seocnd Ali fight all the more obviously a fraud. .
One thing thats on display from Liston is not just his power...but his heart. When Williams stepped up the pressure in the 2nd Liston fought right back. Hagler-like. It wasn't just the power. Liston knew how to get inside and counter effectively. He had boxing skills and the heart of a fighter. This video really helps to show why Liston was feared and gives credence to why everyone was so shocked when that 22 year old kid beat him.
This fight is one of my favorites. I come back to it often. Both of these guys are big, strong, skilled...super good fighters. But Liston was really an animal in there. That was a brutal kayo against the very talented Big Cat. Both of them would demolish all of today's heavyweights. Liston vs. Frazier would've been interesting...I'd pick Joe but that's cuz' he's one of my favorite fighters all-time. Liston though would've had a real shot. He was a bad dude.
I disagree that Liston or Williams would gave beaten Joe Frazier..not enough hand or foot speed for either fighter. Joe would have punished them over 5 or 6 rounds and then taken them out. Neither Williams or Liston would have had the endurance to last long against the relentless pressure Frazier would give them. If you see his fight with Eddie Machen Joe throws as many as 90 punches a round.
Liston would beat Frazier but noas bad as Foreman did. Remember, sonny was a very good boxer---foreman jthrew a lot of wild punches. I say Liston beats Foreman and Tyson also, and most other champions. Too gad he had the upbringing and lifestyle he did. He really wasnt that bad a guy,
don't know about Liston beating Forman...and definitely don't think he'd beat Tyson...Liston was considered big for his time but he only went about 215 at most...Tyson went 215 to 220 and hit REAL hard...Plus had very fast hands which most people forget to consider...I think Tyson would beat Liston
As much as I liked Frazier, the question of style, punching power and size comes into the equation. If you look at what trouble Bonavena gave Frazier, and Liston was a better boxer , I would have to pick Liston.
Both would be interestng fights. Asuming all in their primes----I pick Frazier over Williams. by late KO. I pick Liston over Frazier, if he could get to Joe early. if not, might have to go with Frazier in a 15 round fight. But what a war it would be!
my opinion....Liston TKO's Frazier. Frazier KO's Williams as long as Frazier can avoid the early bombs. After 3 rounds Frazier would chip away and take Williams apart.
sashe44,,good analysis,,,but,,,,,,foreman and liston are different in two areas,,one is that liston was a much better boxer than foreman,,,,examine round one of first clay/liston fight,,,head movement,,bending at the waist,,controlled shuffle,,,and on the inside clay had a an almost impossible time tying up liston in close,,,,,,second,,sonnys arm reach allowed sonny to compete at a distance ,,ie round 3 of first fight,,,clay couldnt escape liston jab even running backwards as fast as he could
Williams looks like a good athlete, tall and chiseled, but Liston looks like a better boxer. I know he's thought of as a puncher but he looks like a more skilled, methodical boxer as well. Liston once said that Williams could hit as hard as he could but couldn't take a punch as well. I believe that but I also think Liston was a better all-around boxer.
Looked to me from this fight that Williams was all left hand. I think if he could have landed a straight right, it would have been a much more competitive fight. Like Foremen, Liston was much more vulnerable to a straight right than a left hook during his career.
sashed44,,,,styles make fights,,,many fighters couldnt deal with clays retreating style and long jab,,liston with his boxing ability,,,,and he was a polished boxer,,,and his extremely long 84 inch reach,,,would be able to reach clay,,as evidenced in third round of their first fight,,he was getting to clay as clay was unable to escape listons long powerful jab,,,,,liston was undertrained,,took clay lightly and faded after five,,remember liston only fought 3 1/2 rounds in 3 yrs,,past prime
Look, a 32 year-old Ali beat a 25 year-old Foreman who certainly hit every bit as hard as Liston. He beat him by standing in front of him and taking his best shots and then KO'd him. So how can anyone say that even a 25 year-old Liston could beat a 25 year old Ali - an Ali that was much harder to hit than when he was 32? Based on this, it is highly improbable that a peak Liston can KO a peak Ali. So if he can't KO him, then he can't beat him, because Ali wins at least a decision every time.
I should have said at the end of my last comment that since Liston can't KO a young Ali, he can't win because Ali's SUPERIOR SPEED AND BOXING SKILL WOULD YIELD AT LEAST A DECISION EVERY TIME.
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liston was an animal,,,,84 inch reach with a bad attitiude,,,,liston fought only 3 rounds in 3 1/2 years prior to clay fight,,,talk about a break for the big mouth clay ,,a rusty aging,,past his prime liston,,,,,who just didnt care anymore,,mob,,women partying,,,that was his undoing,,not that faggot clay
Liston's undoing was that he was totally outclassed by a far superior fighter. No version of Liston EVER beats a 1965 Ali who was faster, more skilled, and had a ton more character and will to win than Liston ever did.
him the greatest of all heavyweights and that is he needed to have focus he lost that in both fights with Liston due to fear. No one can deny those hits could floor anyone. Liston and Williams the greatest slugfest in history. That fight was even handed it was the fact that he got discouraged and that allowed Liston back but he should have continued and that would have made him the winner. Liston was a great fighter as well help Ali to fight these amazing brawlers it would. Ali would have lost
That is correct these heavyweights of that era were around 180lbs to 212lbs because they wanted to maintain speed and excellent conditioning because they knew it would go for a long fight. Many of these champions in there own right. Williams was a heavyweight that had the skills to beat Liston but it was fear look when he had him in trouble. Williams throwing bombs but then got discouraged because Liston took those awesome hits with no problems, Williams lacked one thing that could have made
These guys are quick, with boxing skills and agresssive. Good fights. Today, you see these fat huge monsters going 12 rounds of boring holding and ocassional punching. Size does not translate to punching. Check all the russians, very limited power for their huge size and muscularity and suspicious chins. (Klischko). At the pace we are going they will have to create a Super-Heavyweight Division. I will not pay $49.99 to watch them.
dukejw cleveland williams and sonny liston were the greatest in the period of the late 50's and early 60's the greatest boxers to have laced gloves champions
Sonny was a little quicker with the head movement than he was against Ali. I don't think he could have beaten Ali but he certainly would have gone quite a few rounds
First of all, Ali would have been much more careful than he was with Cooper who was all of 188 lbs when he fought a 21-year old Clay, who was clowning around way too much. I think it was because Cooper was so thin, Clay underestimated his punching power. But even if Liston's hook did reach Ali, was there ever a fighter who recovered better from a punch than Ali? So again, anyone who thinks an orthodox, slow, and predictable fighter like Liston could beat a young Ali is dreaming.
Williams would have beat any heavyweight of this era, Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield just a lean muscle machine so was Liston. Look at them both here lucky for Ali he never fought these warriors of this period. Remember Williams was a piece of art those muscles and toning and condition is the difference for Ali. Williams in his prime was a danger in my view Shavers would loose against Williams
Ali did fight Williams and made him look like a clown in the ring. However in williams defence, Ali was at his peak and virtually impossible to lay a glove on during that period.
This is true. But this was the golden age of boxing when your best athletes wanted to a boxing champ. Now you're best possible heavyweights are playing in the NFL. Could you imagine Julius Peppers or Jevon Kearse trained as a boxer since age 10?
Also williams had lost a kidney after being shot by a cop about two years before fighting Ali.Fighting for a world championship after having a kidney blown out of you is very difficult I am sure.
no way man! it's one less organ that hurts when you get body punched, AND you can use it as an excuse to take a bathroom break in the middle of a fight!
@Chargerchad are you kidding me? Williams just had had 10 feet of intestines removed and had muscle atrophy in his left leg (it was crippled) from being shot by a police officer. He was bascially a paraplegic in the ring. Ali's management ducked Williams before he was crippled because they knew Ali would have gotten stomped.
@Chargerchad Williams wasn't really at his peak by then. He was 33 years old and had been boxing for 14 years. You can see here Williams is a bit of a nervous fighter, it's said he didn't want to leave his dressing room when he fought Ali.
Williams and Liston were past it in 1965/1966. Ali was really tested by Foreman and Frazier in the 70s and showed incredible courage, punch resistance , skill etc.
Williams Vs Liston was the a battle between the best 2 1959 heavyweights - similar to Ali Foreman in 1974..
Cus D'amanto did not want Floy Patterson to go near Williams or Liston.
Liston was a destroyer very strong powerful jab, hook+ thudding right. He was probably the best heavyweight in the world from around 1959/60 up untill he fought Ali. If an opponent stood in front of him+ exchanged blows they were likely to get knocked out in within 3 rounds as happened to Cleveland Williams here+ Floyd Patterson.
Peak Ali beats Liston because Liston did not like clever hit+ move boxers (see fight v Eddie Machen on Youtube) + Ali was the best hit+ move heavyweight ever..
Huh? Liston only had the title for about a year and 5 months before he met Ali He won the title from Floyd, defended it once from him and then lost to Ali, and that was in 64'
My comment was Lennox was "strongest" not "greatest". I reckon he would be far too big and strong for Marciano and Dempsey and should be included. By the way - I like the way your list has Liston at 3. Liston deserves a lot more credit than most give him.
i think there werepeople stronger than lennox, including jim jeffries and george foreman and many hit harder. I think that my list is fair with rocky and dempsey in that place, if not dempsey a man who beat him, gene tunney was a great fighter or lennox as he did beat alot of good fighters. I just think if Lennox had faced tyson when yson was 21 tyson would be that bit too explosive, maybe lewis would have his size to provail but i dont think so, hard decision
Liston was a great fighter who did most of his best work BEFORE he was champion which is why he doesn't get the kind of credit he disserves. His championship reign was dysmal.
Why do people always talk shit......like in his prime this one would of beaten that one or if he was taller/shorter or what ever....judge people by the fight who ever wins wins....if there from 2 different decays or centuries know one knows who would have one DAM
Two awsome punchers who were long denied a shot at the world title by Patterson. By the time Clay/Ali came on the scene they were both past their best.
TClubber, you mention Jim Jeffries as the #1 HWT of all time. Surely you jest, The man though strong won his title from a MIDGET in Bob Fitzsimmons, he weighed 154lbs. And i might add Jeffries had 20 fights to his entire career, who the hell he ever beat t? A worn out over the hill Corbett? Or some some fireman from across the road? GET REAL, He couldn't carry Ali's jockstrap. Most of the guys you rate are not anything near the fighters you make them.Louis and Dempsey being the exceptions.
It's funny how some seem to think because a fighter goes 20-60 rounds that therefore they would beat a fighter that had to go the 15 round title distance. What they fail to mention is fighters like Jeffries, Johnson, Sullivan etc, threw very little punches per round. As a matter of fact those 20-60 round fights were dowmright BORING. Who the hell wants to see hwts throw 5 or 6 punches a round and who the hell thinks fighting at a snails pace was something to behold? BULLCHIT!!!
Top Heavyweights - 1) Muhammad Ali 2) Joe Louis 3) Sonny Liston 4) George Foreman 5) Joe Frazier 6) Larry Holmes 7) Mike Tyson 8) Jack Johnson 9) Rocky Marciano 10) Jack Dempsey
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Top heavyweights in this order 1) Jim Jefferies 2) Jack Johnson 3) John l Sullivan 4) Joe Louis 5) Jack Dempsey 6) Muhammad Ali 7) Rocky Marciano 8) Sonny Liston 9) George Foreman 10) Joe Frazier
Opinions are a beautiful thing...and you have some pretty strong ones about boxing. But I don't see how you could possibly think Nos. 1 and 3 could have beaten Muhammad Ali. He was six-three, two hundred and twenty pounds, fast, strong, smart, courageous, took a great shot--that is, if you could hit him--and could deliver a sting right back. Only Louis and Johnson rate w/him. The others? Puh-leeeeese.
Let me say something Ali was great in skills took a punch as proven later in his career but your argument does not stand as you must remember these guys were the toughest and strongest boxers in the world. They went 60 rounds they just had awesome staminer. They would just wear him down and they would go for a long time. Remember Jim Jefferies and Jack Johnson were great machines there training consisted not just Gyn work they had awesome training outside which consisted of lifting heavy weights
and walking over long distances on hills. These men of that era were tanks for there size. I agree with your attempt with Ali but remember Cleveland Williams came back after a shooting incident to fight him when he was meant to have his title shot in 1964 when he was number 2 contender. He was an awesome machine of a specimen. Ali feard him and delayed that bout. You can see in this bout with Sonny Liston that he had great reach and speed he would have got to Ali eventually.
Ali said that Williams showed skill and strength but did not posess the ability as he was past his prime. Watch the Ali bout Ali never used his footwork like that with Foreman or with Shavers or Frazier. Eventhough by the time he fought them he was coming back from a 3 1/2 year layoff which had an affect on his speed and reflexes. But he would always move from Williams even in the corner showing not just respect for punching power but the presence of the man made Ali fear him.
Williams had more courage than Ali. Nearly died on operating table from three bullets lodged in his kidney, lost over half his body weight and died nearly three times over period three operations to save him. Plus he not able to catch Ali as he had nerve damage causing his left leg to twich and was also shorter than his right. So he came back after all that to fight Ali. Ali would not go through all that to come back. Williams would have lost to Liston but was great in courage and determination
Ali in the 60's fought people that were not ranked for the title, Cleveland Williams at 33 three shots to the stomach lost a kidney small intestines and nerve damage caused his left leg to wobble. Now he might have been knocked down by Ali four times but remember he had courage and was a tough customer. Liston knew it and thats why he destroyed him early because he probably knew he had a chance in the early rounds to win. He always got up when knocked down.
The iss ue with Cleveland Williams was that although he had a very good left hand, he held it way too low and was open to the Liston right over the top...but there is no doubt he was a marvelous physical speciman for the time....you can't throw a jab and then drop your hand to your waist...
kinneyshoe 3 weeks ago
Some people on here are thinking that none of the heavies of the past could beat the
Klitchkos.That's possibly true of Vitali,but Wladimir has been stopped three times,something
that people seem to forget.
harryandsimba 1 month ago
@harryandsimba Well Vitali Klitschko at full pelt is knackered by round 4. Ali could dance and dance for at least 10.
Ali v Klitschko, Ali would simply dance and jab staying away from Vitali until he wore him out and then he'd score at will and win on points or tire him out so much he'd be able to knock him out. He'd also probaby cut him up quite bad.
Bucketheadhead 1 month ago
Sonny was in good shape here unlike 4 years later in both Ali fights where he looked bloated.
genericgeorge 3 months ago
Even though Williams was beaten here, you can see that he is a far superior fighter to the one that fought Ali in 1966. Williams had been shot by a highway patrolman prior to fighting Ali.
Here you can see Williams is fast, a great jab and hook, and quite good at catching the jab with his open right hand, not to mention a very hard hitter, as you can see when he wobbles Liston early in the round. A very under-appreciated fighter who is sadly based on his fight with Ali which isnt fair to him.
jimmyg141 3 months ago
Too similar to Mike Tyson Vs Marvis Frazier Part 2.
youtube.com/watch?v=yxIFXgVO9Qc
watch it!
TheMakintosh5 4 months ago
back in those days the ref were morons- he let the fight go even though the guy was on queer street. listen was cool- he was owned by the mob- trained at the thunderbird in vegas owned by the mob- 2 mafia guys ran boxing -blinkie palermo and frankie carbo-listen got the hot shot in vegas and like many others he went ot the grave with secrets
larrywheels 6 months ago
This is actually a real fight. Fun to watch.....
theskeptic2010 7 months ago
Nobody fights like this anymore. No heavyweights anyway. If either of these guys were around today they'd smoke out the entire division.
zenmachinefilms 8 months ago 4
Terrible defense by Williams. Left himself too open too many times when winding up for punches that proved ineffectual anyway.
howard385 9 months ago
I couldn't believe he got up after the first knock down...what an awesome fight .
EBTerriers 9 months ago
Probably Klitschkos would kill most of the champions of 60's and 70's.
mjwiech 10 months ago
@mjwiech Probably Klitschkos would not. Ali, Foreman, Frazier, and Liston would have dispatched the Ukrainians within five rounds. Even top contenders like Cleveland Williams, Jerry Quarry, Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle were more than skilled enough to beat those two. Then again, that's just my opinion...
Kedbuka 10 months ago 4
@mjwiech ...Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.....your funny.
ProperStuff 6 months ago
@duprez2: Thanks for your input. You give a very level headed analysis of the facts. (something that is quite often rare when discussing boxing greats). As an aside, I agree entirely with you that Ali really proved his mettle and heart in the "Rumble in the Jungle" - to do this day, I don't understand how he withstood the barrage of body shots etc from the "monster" that Foreman was ... On that balmy night, he (Ali) earned the right to join the legion of boxing legends.
takashijoh 10 months ago
Sonny's the man! Either of these guys in their prime could finish BOTH the Klitschko's in 1 round..at the same time
rokmin 10 months ago
One of my most favorite fights of all time!. It has everything, action, drama, cool headedness under ferocious attack, and sweet, sweet revenge!. For me Sonny will always be one of the G.O.A.Ts - even though he is/was given very little credit/coverage by the general media. Great, great champion - always will be in my books!
takashijoh 11 months ago
@takashijoh Liston knocked him out in the first fight,how did he get revenge?But a great fight,the first one was better though...it lasted a round longer.
TheGatorfan93 10 months ago
@TheGatorfan93 No, you misunderstand me. I meant the revenge that occurs after the ferocious onslaught at 4:55. make no mistake, The "big cat" was a very, very heavy hitter. Liston himself said that by far, Cleveland Williams was the hardest puncher he had ever fought. Liston took a pounding in the first part of the second round and he had to cover up and he even staggered a little. The he bit hard on his gum shield and let hell loose on Williams - thats the "revenge" I was talking about :)
takashijoh 10 months ago
@takashijoh I actually prefer the close 12 round or old 15 round fights.Because you can always go back and maybe see something different.Did this guy win?Did that guy?I gotta watch again.Fights like ali's 3 fights with norton,holmes/norton,leonard/duran l,leonard/hearns ll,holmes/spinks ll as examples.Great momentum switches,dramatic and controversial.
TheGatorfan93 10 months ago
@TheGatorfan93 By "revenge", I am simply using the term as used by Flloyd Patterson, when he referred to boxing as a "revenge sport" - i.e. you hit me now, and "I'mma gonna get you back". I tend to like shorter, action packed fights for two reasons: 1. You get to the conclusion quicker (and possibly, more emphatically), 2). There is less damage likely to be done to either boxer - compared to a long, drawn out battle. For those reasons, I still prefer the second fight to the first
takashijoh 10 months ago
mazing all the neg klitscho remarks and all the praise for these two guys
finetubs 1 year ago
This is a FIGHT!. Gives me shivers just watching it - even after all these years. I hope they earned good money (I doubt it - which is a shame, considering the risks involved). Sonny Liston was one of the best heavy weights of all time - its a shame he never got the credit he deserved. I don't know if Ali could have beaten him when he was in his prime.
takashijoh 1 year ago
@takashijoh Both Sonny and Cleveland were passed their primes when they fought Ali. I think Sonny's two brutal fights against Cleveland really established him as an all time great champion. Ali, incidently, didn't get his just do until he beat a prime Foreman while past his prime.
duprez2 10 months ago
Notice at the beginning of the second round. Williams was blinking badly. It was rumored that Listens camp put something in the water of appoints that were threatening. This also happened in Ali vs listen 1.
parrisht 1 year ago
There is a follow-up comment I'd like to make that I think no one will disagree with: the Sonny Liston who fought Ali was not the same fighter who here takes a barrage of punches from one of the hardest hitters of that era and then just moments later crumples his opponent to the mat. The Liston on this video would still have lost to Ali, but I think he would have delivered more punishment to Ali in the process.
MISHA1119 1 year ago
I never realized before that Sonny Liston has the same upper body movements as Joe Frazier, with less speed and more force but the styles are identical!
FijneWIET 1 year ago
@FijneWIET You're straight up Blind. They have no similarities whatsoever. Frazier crouched kept moving forward, bobbed and weaved, rarely through a left jab or right hand to the head and had a killer left hook that he used almost exclusively. Sonny had a straight up style with a powerful long left jab, followed by a straight right hand to the head. This was how Sonny fought. You need glasses bad!
bangitslo 11 months ago
@bangitslo Actually I do need new glasses :)
But I still see the similarities I described 3 months ago,
I mentioned the upper body movements, not the punches they throw.
FijneWIET 11 months ago
@FijneWIET There are exactly NO similarities between Liston and Frazier except one...Ferocity.
jabnhook2 3 months ago
make no mistake about it, Cleveland Williams was NEVER in the same class as Ali.
Maybe a prime Williams would have put up a better showing against Ali that night in Houston, but he still would have been dominated nonetheless.
sashe44 1 year ago
I could not agree with you. Williams in that diminished capacity fought for the World Heavyweight Title on Nov. 14 1966 at the Houston Asterdome. He was a force. A man with tremendous courage and heart to survive that near death incident and come back beats Ali 3 year layoff. A bullet entering a body of .357 totally changed him and his physical capacity. He lost so much but was a courageous fighter to stand up to the best of Muhammad Ali & keep coming. That is how the Big Cat will be remembered
MrTClubber 1 year ago
@MrTClubber Bullets don't do that much damage, only if they exit you, If they stay inside of you, it's no big deal. I have 4 bullets in me and I don't feel any differently. Forget the back aches, the strained neck the aching chest, the throbbing leg, the arthritic hand, nah, bullets don't do anything to you. I'm kidding. Cleveland passed all examine, Ali just whipped his ass that's all.
bangitslo 11 months ago
Williams was shot at point blank range by a policeman, using a .357 magnum - the baddest pistol at that time.
The doctor who operated on him said that he had never seen a physical specimen like Williams. The bullet would have, at least, crippled an ordinary man, but Williams abdominal wall was 3 times thicker than that of an ordinary man !
And, after he recovered from that, he fought Ali !
JSavic 1 year ago
Liston said that no man ever punched him harder than The Big Cat !
JSavic 1 year ago
@JSavic and he sparred with foreman, thats saying summin isn't it ;)
MrBumboclart 1 year ago
Liston's prime was robbed of his prime, by being in out of jail in his mid 20's.Remember,he was at least 4 to 5 years older than what he was listed at the time.Ali was at his apex when he fought liston,but liston threw his shoulder out,and the doctors had to stop it.But he had his moments, won the 2nd round,came back and hurt ali in the 3rd(though he still lost the round) won the 4th and 5th.In the 6th you can see liston in pain throwing the jab.The second fight was a dive,its pretty obvious.
TheGatorfan93 1 year ago
@TheGatorfan93 Ali hadn't reached his peak when he fought Liston.
bugstrut 1 year ago
@TheGatorfan93 Valid comments, Gator, but Liston was simply outclassed by Ali, who at 22 was already the fastest heavyweight who had yet lived. I question that Sonny won Round 2. He only won 4&5 because Ali was temporarily blind. In 6 Ali began to systematically dismantle him. Though his shoulder injury was real, I think Sonny quit on his stool because he realized that if he continued, Ali's prediction of an 8th round knockout would come true, and it was just more than he could bear.
MISHA1119 1 year ago
If a prime Cleveland Williams was around today, he would KO both Klitschkos within 2 weeks.
Donal111 1 year ago 21
@Donal111 lol
eslubin 1 year ago
@Donal111 I beg to disagree. Both the brothers are too big for any of the heavyweights of the last few decades. Forman would have had the best chance. The rest, I don't think so. They are too big, too skilled and too strong. And yes, it would have taken Williams two weeks to land a shot against the K brothers.
Coachwkr 5 months ago
@Coachwkr Liston had a 84" reach, hit as hard as Foreman, had better skills, stamina, chin.
carmodifire 5 months ago
@Coachwkr Klitschkos would have beaten either of these guys pretty easily. No one likes to admit it, because heavyweight fights are so boring, but the guys today are just too big for these smaller fighters. The fights suck though. But, Liston is so slow, and so small compared to these modern guys, he take an ugly beating, and quit. He liked to quit.
Williams would probably suffer a first round knockout. He liked to get knocked out. He refused to bring his left up.
TA152H01 5 months ago
@TA152H01 The Klitschko's are too SLOW for these two guys. Mike Tyson would've beaten both Klitschko's on the same night in his prime. Cleveland Williams might be the most underrated heavyweight ever. Tyson and Liston would have been interesting. Tough to call that one. But Ali would beat all of them!
jabnhook2 3 months ago
@jabnhook2 You're kidding right? Liston is much slower than Wladimir, and is over half a foot shorter. He's gruesomely slow.
Tyson would also be tiny, but I'd give him a chance because of his speed. Probably Vitali would ass-rape him though, because Tyson doesn't have the punch to knock him out, and he'd runthouse him, and Tyson would enjoy quitting.
Ali couldn't handle big guys with jabs. Liston's was too slow, but he'd have problems with Wladimir.
TA152H01 3 months ago
@TA152H01 No, I'm not kidding. Today's "Fast Food" heavyweights don't match up to the 60's and 70's Champions or most top 10 Contenders. Last names only: Ali..Frazier..Foreman..Lyle..Shavers..Norton..Cooney.. Holmes..Liston..Williams..Bonavena..Witherspoon..I could list more. The men listed had some/or all of the tools necessary to beat the robot-like Klitschko Brothers. YouTube has videos of most of these men. You need to do your homework. At least the K-bros. are in shape. Robots!!
jabnhook2 3 months ago
@jabnhook2 Unlike you, I've seen this guys fight when they were fighting, except for Liston.
Cooney? Really? LOL. Foreman is slower than the Klits. Shavers blew donkeys. Norton? Are you serious? He couldn't fight the big boys. Frazier would have been thrown around like a child. His best weight was 205. Lyle sucked balls. He had nothing. Ali was better, but would have trouble because of the styles. Witherspoon? Watch Bonecrusher, crush him.
Holmes, I agree. He'd beat them.
TA152H01 3 months ago
@TA152H01 the Klitschko's are a little underrated, they can fight and have an awkwardness about them which makes them hard to fight, but both of these guys i think would have beaten them because they would have backed them up and neither Klitschko fights well in reverse. Williams was a little chinny so im less certain about him, but he was fearless, and quite fast with a good jab and hook. Liston I feel would win handily and having an 84 inch reach I feel would be able to reach them.
jimmyg141 3 months ago
@jimmyg141 Liston was sooooooo slow, and he had no heart. He'd also look like a child in with a man. He wasn't a big guy, only 6'0". Once he got hit, he'd quit. He couldn't handle a guy that big.
Both Klitschkos look awkward, but they got quick hands, and they're so damn big. They're 250s with very, very low bodyfat. It's not like Ali at 220, which was somewhat fat, or even Liston. These guys are ripped. I just watch Briggs fight Vitali. He is a huge man, but he looked tiny.
TA152H01 3 months ago
@TA152H01 thats bullshit every champion has heart,liston took big hits from cleveland williams in both fights ,,and early in his career fought with a broken jaw ,ur judging his whole career on the ali fight yawn, Ali,not a past it shot briggs,wlad Klitschkos in trouble if were goin to judge him on his defeats,seen him fight in madison square garden,,nearly fell asleep ,people said vital quit against bird,,he agood fighter but he is fighting Dereck Chisora in his nxt fight,says it all
theirishbloke 2 months ago
@theirishbloke Actually, a lot of guys don't have a lot of heart. Liston quit twice. That's not heart. Sometimes a guy is so talented, he's never tested. Liston quit when he was really tested, and felt hopeless. Guys like Ali, Leonard, Holmes, Frazier etc... would never quit.
Your last line is purely idiotic. That's like saying Ali wasn't a great fighter because he fought Evangelista. You must know better than to say something like that.
TA152H01 2 months ago
@TA152H01 Dereck Chisora who has lost his last 2fights is another added on to a long list so to compare the Klitschkos in the same breath as Ali, now thats purely idiotic,,there average to say the least compared to Ali .
theirishbloke 2 months ago
@theirishbloke Saying the competition makes someone lousy is plain stupid. It just doesn't prove anything one way or another.
It's hard to compare guys from different eras. These guys are so much bigger and stronger than Ali, Ali would look like a child in against them. They're near 250 pounds ripped. Ali couldn't weigh 215 with that type of body fat.
Size makes up for a lot. These guys are huge. Their fights suck, but their conditioning and size create problems
TA152H01 2 months ago
@Coachwkr i disagree,Ali would be any boxer of any time,no matter how big they were
Cappacino1000 4 months ago
Watching this I can't help thinking, where have heavyweights like this gone? People think bigger is better, but these two weighed in at around 212 lbs and were fast, agressive, skillful and hard hitting, whereas these 250 lb tubs now are like watching paint dry. If Sonny was around now he would wipe the floor with todays heavyweights.
chunkyscotty 1 year ago 15
@chunkyscotty
Nutrition and Training IMO. David Tua was 205 in his first fight, yet is 247 against Lewis for the belt. Lennox Lewis was 221 when he started pro, but gained more weight as his career progressed, was 256 in his last bout but still not overweight.
IMO if these 250lbs fighters were around back in the 60s, they would be a lot lighter, sticking to what they should be at the start of their career alll the way through.
Donal111 1 year ago
@chunkyscotty
Man I couldn't agree with you more!
rokmin 1 year ago
Comment removed
thamostgangsta12 6 months ago
@chunkyscotty couldn't agree more. there too big the heavyweights today and alot are not even in shape. i was just thinking "they don't make um like that anymore" hopefully the smaller, lighter heavyweights will come back round one day.
ayresy89 3 months ago
WOW....this must have been a LONG time ago. Ole "Bubba" is the ring card guy..... LOL
I gotta respectfully disagree with you @Kedbuka on Liston throwing that 1st fight w/ Ali. Liston tried his damness to get to Ali but couldn't and then he and his corner cheated w/ the ointment and still couldn't get to him. It's in the records that wasn't the first time he and his corner did that. As a kid i believed the "Phantom punch" theory but after the age of computers,,,,Yeah he threw that fight. IMO
gbrown4x4 1 year ago
Liston was tough. Too bad people only remember him for his fixed fights with Ali.
cmerc25 1 year ago
Very true, I think he was past his prime vs Ali. Put a prime Liston in there against Ali and he's got some trouble.
TommyGun7111 1 year ago
@cmerc25 the fights with ali were not fixed.liston bailed because he knew he could not handle him.
reg5381 1 year ago
I hate this. If you get up before the count of 10, you should have to continue. It's like, ok I got up I'm all tough but the fight's over.
Robstailey 1 year ago
This performance is stunning proof that Liston is one of the top 5 heavyweights of all time. The two fights with Ali were complete jokes. Williams displayed more power here than Ali ever had and Liston took those blows without a flinch. Sonny had not only the most powerful punch of his day, but a great chin. That scary two handed assault from 6:15 to 6:21 says it all. Ali is damn lucky he never faced THIS Liston
BloozeDaddy76 1 year ago
@BloozeDaddy76 : Ali did face this Liston, and whipped him conclusively with superior hand and foot speed. This performance by Liston here against Williams is awesome, no question about it. That's why Ali was such a big underdog. But he beat Liston fair and square. He rocked Sonny early and kept beating him to the punch. Watch the fight. Ali was really something special.
Kedbuka 1 year ago
@Kedbuka I agree Ali was something special but I think Sonny threw both fights. You can see it especially in the second one, even Ali knew it, hence Ali standing over him shouting at him! I do think Ali would of beaten him anyway when Liston was that old but a prime liston I dont think so. Ali fought Liston 4 years after this fight he didnt face this Liston dude!
1outlawz 1 year ago
@1outlawz : There's some dispute as to Liston's birthdate--he was either 32 or 36 when he fought Ali the first time. Either way, he had just knocked out Floyd Patterson (again) the year before and his skills had not eroded much, if at all, by the time he faced Clay, whose style was perfect for a slow-footed fighter like Sonny who brought the fight to him. I'd still bet on Gaseous Cassius.
Kedbuka 1 year ago
@Kedbuka Yeah I hear you man. It was a fight that I think could go either way, as all fights can but I like Liston more. If I was a betting man I would bet Sonny. The one fight I wish we had was Louis vs Ali though, now that would of been great! I give that one to Louis definatly. He would of caught him sooner or later. You can't choose Ali on that one bro or I will hunt you down!
1outlawz 1 year ago
@1outlawz : I should not like to disagree w/you regarding Louis and Ali...so I won't! That made me laugh, brother. And anyway, I love Joe Louis, a gentleman slugger. Ring Mag called him the "most correct puncher of all time." I think that's a most accurate statement. Not only correct, but in his prime, very quick-handed too. Right on, later man.
Kedbuka 1 year ago
@Kedbuka Good lad! We agree on something then! I can watch Louis fight for hours and I do. And its about time someone else commented on his hand speed too. Later, take care dude!
1outlawz 1 year ago
I meant in terms of style.
crawhip7 1 year ago
Cleveland sort of resembled Max Baer, he could have been the next Baer of his era, had he beat Liston i.e.
crawhip7 1 year ago
C. Williams is your 'typical' all round boxer.....you can spot him anywhere in a crowd.
crawhip7 1 year ago
Did sonny win both fights
IkaikaLocS 1 year ago
@IkaikaLocS Yes
Nickcat5 1 year ago
I really believe NO MAN ALIVE could out slug a prime Tyson , which are the only tactics Sonny would to fight Mike with . I think Liston's defence would put him in big trouble with Mike , then again Tyson's come forward style could play right in to a puncher like Sonny's hands . But I pick Mike by stoppage maybe 5 to 7 rounds
delirious44 2 years ago
@delirious44 i am a firm believer that a prime tyson would have beat lennox and holyfield but liston was an animal, he would beat up george when george was young in their sparring sessions, he took cleveland williams hardest shots and didnt blink, i think he would have beat tyson pretty badly even if he was in his prime.
thecrazyoftheinsane 2 years ago
I don't know man , No one even attempted to slug with a prime Tyson , He was beatable if you boxed him BUT TOE TO TOE he was just too quick and Sonny was maybe just to slow for Mike , Don't get me wrong if any one could be tough enough to trade with Mike , Liston would be the man , I give Mike the edge because of his speed and accuracy though . BUT REGARDLESS of who I think would win , that's one fight I would love to have seen
delirious44 2 years ago
@thecrazyoftheinsane George actually said he did pretty good against Sonny and that's when his minders thought that he could go somewhere.
capablemachine 1 year ago
Remember if the Cleveland Williams had come back from a shooting incident that nearly killed him and he managed to come back to earn a title shot against Muhammad Ali what a force he was then to fight Liston. Liston would have know he was the only heavyweight at the time that could handle him. If he was able comeback what a force he would have been against Liston. He would have been man to be counted a real warrior with extreme heart and determination his fight with Liston where legendary
MrTClubber 2 years ago
Love liston's style. Seems to have gone out of the game. Not many fighters use the shoulder defensively anymore. Mayweather has has had huge success with it. Liston would be undisputed champ these days.
deepplay1 2 years ago
To deepplay1: Good observation. Liston kept his chin tucked in close to his left shoulder, which made him hard to hit cleanly. He was a pretty nifty boxer but it was his raw, menacing power that got everyone's attention. Until Clay/Ali came along, it didn't seem like anyone could beat him. He was a bad dude. This fight here is a demonstration of it. He walloped the Big 'Cat, who was a feared fighter in his own right.
Kedbuka 1 year ago
damn. sonny Liston is a beast. powerful jab and good hooks. could knock you out with his right or his left. or man handle you on the inside. Wide arsenal, and big men.
one of my favs.
TommyGun7111 2 years ago
With big punchers, the length of a fight doesn't reflect it's competitiveness. A 10 or even a 15 round bout can be totally one-sided but these fights between Liston and Williams were very comeptitive. They were decided by Liston's superior ability to take a punch, which makes the seocnd Ali fight all the more obviously a fraud. .
44032 2 years ago
@44032 yeh but he got hos ass whuped in the 1st fight and he knew he couldnt beat him the 2nd time round
745bobman 2 years ago
Agree---totally
loyaldude10 2 years ago
liston had a good jab and that would give any fighter like tyson, foreman problem do know who win but i must say liston jab was a weapon
SLIMZD 2 years ago
One thing thats on display from Liston is not just his power...but his heart. When Williams stepped up the pressure in the 2nd Liston fought right back. Hagler-like. It wasn't just the power. Liston knew how to get inside and counter effectively. He had boxing skills and the heart of a fighter. This video really helps to show why Liston was feared and gives credence to why everyone was so shocked when that 22 year old kid beat him.
ReeseMac 2 years ago
This fight is one of my favorites. I come back to it often. Both of these guys are big, strong, skilled...super good fighters. But Liston was really an animal in there. That was a brutal kayo against the very talented Big Cat. Both of them would demolish all of today's heavyweights. Liston vs. Frazier would've been interesting...I'd pick Joe but that's cuz' he's one of my favorite fighters all-time. Liston though would've had a real shot. He was a bad dude.
Kedbuka 2 years ago
I disagree that Liston or Williams would gave beaten Joe Frazier..not enough hand or foot speed for either fighter. Joe would have punished them over 5 or 6 rounds and then taken them out. Neither Williams or Liston would have had the endurance to last long against the relentless pressure Frazier would give them. If you see his fight with Eddie Machen Joe throws as many as 90 punches a round.
kinneyshoe 2 years ago
I'm wondering how Sonny Liston would have done against Joe Frazier. Do you think he would have done the same as Foreman did to Frazier?
Its a pretty good question for Cleveland Williams vs Frazier too.
RonnieLeeDuck 2 years ago
Liston would beat Frazier but noas bad as Foreman did. Remember, sonny was a very good boxer---foreman jthrew a lot of wild punches. I say Liston beats Foreman and Tyson also, and most other champions. Too gad he had the upbringing and lifestyle he did. He really wasnt that bad a guy,
loyaldude10 2 years ago
@loyaldude10
Yeah he was a product of his upbringing. The way a child is brought up affects the decisions he makes as a Man!
MikeTysonEatsKids 2 years ago
don't know about Liston beating Forman...and definitely don't think he'd beat Tyson...Liston was considered big for his time but he only went about 215 at most...Tyson went 215 to 220 and hit REAL hard...Plus had very fast hands which most people forget to consider...I think Tyson would beat Liston
sonwamac 2 years ago
As much as I liked Frazier, the question of style, punching power and size comes into the equation. If you look at what trouble Bonavena gave Frazier, and Liston was a better boxer , I would have to pick Liston.
odeonpacific 2 years ago
Both would be interestng fights. Asuming all in their primes----I pick Frazier over Williams. by late KO. I pick Liston over Frazier, if he could get to Joe early. if not, might have to go with Frazier in a 15 round fight. But what a war it would be!
loyaldude10 2 years ago
my opinion....Liston TKO's Frazier. Frazier KO's Williams as long as Frazier can avoid the early bombs. After 3 rounds Frazier would chip away and take Williams apart.
ReeseMac 2 years ago
It must have been weird for Cleveland Williams to be a legitimately great heavy weight but to be most famous for getting destroyed by Liston and Ali.
RonnieLeeDuck 2 years ago
I think a Williams in his prime would have given Ali a heck of a fright, not the fighter that faced him in the 60s.
odeonpacific 2 years ago
Maybe, but Ali would definitely not have underestimated him. Even when Ali did face him in 66' he apparently had some genuine fear of him.
RonnieLeeDuck 2 years ago
sashe44,,good analysis,,,but,,,,,,foreman and liston are different in two areas,,one is that liston was a much better boxer than foreman,,,,examine round one of first clay/liston fight,,,head movement,,bending at the waist,,controlled shuffle,,,and on the inside clay had a an almost impossible time tying up liston in close,,,,,,second,,sonnys arm reach allowed sonny to compete at a distance ,,ie round 3 of first fight,,,clay couldnt escape liston jab even running backwards as fast as he could
nastylefthook1 2 years ago
Williams looks like a good athlete, tall and chiseled, but Liston looks like a better boxer. I know he's thought of as a puncher but he looks like a more skilled, methodical boxer as well. Liston once said that Williams could hit as hard as he could but couldn't take a punch as well. I believe that but I also think Liston was a better all-around boxer.
Peterh588 2 years ago
Looked to me from this fight that Williams was all left hand. I think if he could have landed a straight right, it would have been a much more competitive fight. Like Foremen, Liston was much more vulnerable to a straight right than a left hook during his career.
sashe44 2 years ago
sashed44,,,,styles make fights,,,many fighters couldnt deal with clays retreating style and long jab,,liston with his boxing ability,,,,and he was a polished boxer,,,and his extremely long 84 inch reach,,,would be able to reach clay,,as evidenced in third round of their first fight,,he was getting to clay as clay was unable to escape listons long powerful jab,,,,,liston was undertrained,,took clay lightly and faded after five,,remember liston only fought 3 1/2 rounds in 3 yrs,,past prime
nastylefthook1 2 years ago
Look, a 32 year-old Ali beat a 25 year-old Foreman who certainly hit every bit as hard as Liston. He beat him by standing in front of him and taking his best shots and then KO'd him. So how can anyone say that even a 25 year-old Liston could beat a 25 year old Ali - an Ali that was much harder to hit than when he was 32? Based on this, it is highly improbable that a peak Liston can KO a peak Ali. So if he can't KO him, then he can't beat him, because Ali wins at least a decision every time.
sashe44 2 years ago
I should have said at the end of my last comment that since Liston can't KO a young Ali, he can't win because Ali's SUPERIOR SPEED AND BOXING SKILL WOULD YIELD AT LEAST A DECISION EVERY TIME.
sashe44 2 years ago
3:40
she's not very good looking
Donal111 2 years ago
Only the greatest could beat Liston !
truthhitmanisback 2 years ago
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liston was an animal,,,,84 inch reach with a bad attitiude,,,,liston fought only 3 rounds in 3 1/2 years prior to clay fight,,,talk about a break for the big mouth clay ,,a rusty aging,,past his prime liston,,,,,who just didnt care anymore,,mob,,women partying,,,that was his undoing,,not that faggot clay
nastylefthook1 2 years ago
Liston's undoing was that he was totally outclassed by a far superior fighter. No version of Liston EVER beats a 1965 Ali who was faster, more skilled, and had a ton more character and will to win than Liston ever did.
sashe44 2 years ago
outclasssed by a far superior fighter
yeah,who was 22,while liston was in his mid 30's...let me catch my breath
TheGatorfan93 2 years ago
@TheGatorfan93 MID 30'S IS OLD? ARE U CRAZY?
ronmatthews 2 years ago
him the greatest of all heavyweights and that is he needed to have focus he lost that in both fights with Liston due to fear. No one can deny those hits could floor anyone. Liston and Williams the greatest slugfest in history. That fight was even handed it was the fact that he got discouraged and that allowed Liston back but he should have continued and that would have made him the winner. Liston was a great fighter as well help Ali to fight these amazing brawlers it would. Ali would have lost
MrTClubber 2 years ago
That is correct these heavyweights of that era were around 180lbs to 212lbs because they wanted to maintain speed and excellent conditioning because they knew it would go for a long fight. Many of these champions in there own right. Williams was a heavyweight that had the skills to beat Liston but it was fear look when he had him in trouble. Williams throwing bombs but then got discouraged because Liston took those awesome hits with no problems, Williams lacked one thing that could have made
MrTClubber 2 years ago
sonny had the bigest fests in boxing
souflondon1 2 years ago
These guys are quick, with boxing skills and agresssive. Good fights. Today, you see these fat huge monsters going 12 rounds of boring holding and ocassional punching. Size does not translate to punching. Check all the russians, very limited power for their huge size and muscularity and suspicious chins. (Klischko). At the pace we are going they will have to create a Super-Heavyweight Division. I will not pay $49.99 to watch them.
KleePietro 2 years ago 21
Agreed, well-stated.
Kedbuka 2 years ago
@KleePietro ---totally agree w/ ur comments
loyaldude10 11 months ago
dukejw cleveland williams and sonny liston were the greatest in the period of the late 50's and early 60's the greatest boxers to have laced gloves champions
MrTClubber 2 years ago
i rate floyd patterson but i fink willims wood of beaten floyd 4 da title easy
MRGKING 2 years ago
Liston wing end of his career, said that none of those who had met him stronger to hit Cleveland Williams
gius78g 2 years ago
Sonny was a little quicker with the head movement than he was against Ali. I don't think he could have beaten Ali but he certainly would have gone quite a few rounds
TermiteAssassin1 2 years ago
No way.The 1959 Liston knocks out 1965 Ali.Cooper knocked Ali down.
74sodapop 2 years ago
haha a lucky punch...that is a foolish statement brother...59 listen couldnt beat a 66-67 ali
jaqua524 2 years ago
Always open to debate.Henry Cooper hit him 6 to 8 times with that left hook.A 1959 Liston left hook,big trouble for Clay.
74sodapop 2 years ago
Noone beats 65-67 Ali. That Ali greatest ever. You're right.
iamtman1 2 years ago
First of all, Ali would have been much more careful than he was with Cooper who was all of 188 lbs when he fought a 21-year old Clay, who was clowning around way too much. I think it was because Cooper was so thin, Clay underestimated his punching power. But even if Liston's hook did reach Ali, was there ever a fighter who recovered better from a punch than Ali? So again, anyone who thinks an orthodox, slow, and predictable fighter like Liston could beat a young Ali is dreaming.
sashe44 2 years ago
Williams would have beat any heavyweight of this era, Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield just a lean muscle machine so was Liston. Look at them both here lucky for Ali he never fought these warriors of this period. Remember Williams was a piece of art those muscles and toning and condition is the difference for Ali. Williams in his prime was a danger in my view Shavers would loose against Williams
MrTClubber 2 years ago
Ali did fight Williams and made him look like a clown in the ring. However in williams defence, Ali was at his peak and virtually impossible to lay a glove on during that period.
Chargerchad 2 years ago 2
Exactly.
Same with Ernie Terrell and others.
Liston in his prime was awesome but nobody really knew his age.
Those guys were much better fighters than the over-muscled and muscle-bound clowns today.
gwilymrj 2 years ago 2
This is true. But this was the golden age of boxing when your best athletes wanted to a boxing champ. Now you're best possible heavyweights are playing in the NFL. Could you imagine Julius Peppers or Jevon Kearse trained as a boxer since age 10?
RedDeezy 2 years ago
Also williams had lost a kidney after being shot by a cop about two years before fighting Ali.Fighting for a world championship after having a kidney blown out of you is very difficult I am sure.
xxdonaldqxx 2 years ago 2
@xxdonaldqxx
no way man! it's one less organ that hurts when you get body punched, AND you can use it as an excuse to take a bathroom break in the middle of a fight!
Robstailey 1 year ago
@Chargerchad are you kidding me? Williams just had had 10 feet of intestines removed and had muscle atrophy in his left leg (it was crippled) from being shot by a police officer. He was bascially a paraplegic in the ring. Ali's management ducked Williams before he was crippled because they knew Ali would have gotten stomped.
thecrazyoftheinsane 1 year ago
ali didnt duck anyone
MRGKING 1 year ago
@Chargerchad Williams wasn't really at his peak by then. He was 33 years old and had been boxing for 14 years. You can see here Williams is a bit of a nervous fighter, it's said he didn't want to leave his dressing room when he fought Ali.
capablemachine 1 year ago
Great fights!
agutinoff 2 years ago
Sony looked not too bad back here. Looked nothing like this with Ali I can see why they all were backing Liston up the the Ali-Liston match.
mjok2004 2 years ago
i wonder if it would have made a difference for Cat if he had his les that day he fought Ali everyone has their opinions but I think not
Automatic25 2 years ago
My guess Ali and a peak Liston would be close.
Williams and Liston were past it in 1965/1966. Ali was really tested by Foreman and Frazier in the 70s and showed incredible courage, punch resistance , skill etc.
Williams Vs Liston was the a battle between the best 2 1959 heavyweights - similar to Ali Foreman in 1974..
Cus D'amanto did not want Floy Patterson to go near Williams or Liston.
hogarthman 2 years ago
Liston was a destroyer very strong powerful jab, hook+ thudding right. He was probably the best heavyweight in the world from around 1959/60 up untill he fought Ali. If an opponent stood in front of him+ exchanged blows they were likely to get knocked out in within 3 rounds as happened to Cleveland Williams here+ Floyd Patterson.
Peak Ali beats Liston because Liston did not like clever hit+ move boxers (see fight v Eddie Machen on Youtube) + Ali was the best hit+ move heavyweight ever..
07091102 2 years ago 3
Yes but don't forget Ali was still past his prime when he fought Foreman
SDSen 2 years ago 2
Huh? Liston only had the title for about a year and 5 months before he met Ali He won the title from Floyd, defended it once from him and then lost to Ali, and that was in 64'
periechontology 2 years ago
Boxinglad123.... Rocky Marciano 185 LBs better than Lennox Lewis strongest ever heavyweight - get real... !!
Liston Williams what power what courage wow...!
hogarthman 2 years ago
lennox lewis greatest ? are you joking ? lennox aint the best
Boxinglad123 2 years ago
My comment was Lennox was "strongest" not "greatest". I reckon he would be far too big and strong for Marciano and Dempsey and should be included. By the way - I like the way your list has Liston at 3. Liston deserves a lot more credit than most give him.
hogarthman 2 years ago
i think there werepeople stronger than lennox, including jim jeffries and george foreman and many hit harder. I think that my list is fair with rocky and dempsey in that place, if not dempsey a man who beat him, gene tunney was a great fighter or lennox as he did beat alot of good fighters. I just think if Lennox had faced tyson when yson was 21 tyson would be that bit too explosive, maybe lewis would have his size to provail but i dont think so, hard decision
Boxinglad123 2 years ago
Foreman was stronger than Lewis. Holyfield found old George stronger than Len.
pugilistofpower 2 years ago 2
Liston was a great fighter who did most of his best work BEFORE he was champion which is why he doesn't get the kind of credit he disserves. His championship reign was dysmal.
TermiteAssassin1 2 years ago 5
Liston was awesome one of the most ducked fighters
Boxinglad123 2 years ago 2
Why do people always talk shit......like in his prime this one would of beaten that one or if he was taller/shorter or what ever....judge people by the fight who ever wins wins....if there from 2 different decays or centuries know one knows who would have one DAM
hallmark18 2 years ago
Two awsome punchers who were long denied a shot at the world title by Patterson. By the time Clay/Ali came on the scene they were both past their best.
jerry12jackson 2 years ago
TClubber, you mention Jim Jeffries as the #1 HWT of all time. Surely you jest, The man though strong won his title from a MIDGET in Bob Fitzsimmons, he weighed 154lbs. And i might add Jeffries had 20 fights to his entire career, who the hell he ever beat t? A worn out over the hill Corbett? Or some some fireman from across the road? GET REAL, He couldn't carry Ali's jockstrap. Most of the guys you rate are not anything near the fighters you make them.Louis and Dempsey being the exceptions.
Deagledrumzz 2 years ago
It's funny how some seem to think because a fighter goes 20-60 rounds that therefore they would beat a fighter that had to go the 15 round title distance. What they fail to mention is fighters like Jeffries, Johnson, Sullivan etc, threw very little punches per round. As a matter of fact those 20-60 round fights were dowmright BORING. Who the hell wants to see hwts throw 5 or 6 punches a round and who the hell thinks fighting at a snails pace was something to behold? BULLCHIT!!!
Deagledrumzz 2 years ago
Boxinglad123 2 years ago
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MrTClubber 3 years ago
Opinions are a beautiful thing...and you have some pretty strong ones about boxing. But I don't see how you could possibly think Nos. 1 and 3 could have beaten Muhammad Ali. He was six-three, two hundred and twenty pounds, fast, strong, smart, courageous, took a great shot--that is, if you could hit him--and could deliver a sting right back. Only Louis and Johnson rate w/him. The others? Puh-leeeeese.
Kedbuka 3 years ago
Let me say something Ali was great in skills took a punch as proven later in his career but your argument does not stand as you must remember these guys were the toughest and strongest boxers in the world. They went 60 rounds they just had awesome staminer. They would just wear him down and they would go for a long time. Remember Jim Jefferies and Jack Johnson were great machines there training consisted not just Gyn work they had awesome training outside which consisted of lifting heavy weights
MrTClubber 3 years ago
and walking over long distances on hills. These men of that era were tanks for there size. I agree with your attempt with Ali but remember Cleveland Williams came back after a shooting incident to fight him when he was meant to have his title shot in 1964 when he was number 2 contender. He was an awesome machine of a specimen. Ali feard him and delayed that bout. You can see in this bout with Sonny Liston that he had great reach and speed he would have got to Ali eventually.
MrTClubber 3 years ago
Ali said that Williams showed skill and strength but did not posess the ability as he was past his prime. Watch the Ali bout Ali never used his footwork like that with Foreman or with Shavers or Frazier. Eventhough by the time he fought them he was coming back from a 3 1/2 year layoff which had an affect on his speed and reflexes. But he would always move from Williams even in the corner showing not just respect for punching power but the presence of the man made Ali fear him.
MrTClubber 3 years ago
Williams had more courage than Ali. Nearly died on operating table from three bullets lodged in his kidney, lost over half his body weight and died nearly three times over period three operations to save him. Plus he not able to catch Ali as he had nerve damage causing his left leg to twich and was also shorter than his right. So he came back after all that to fight Ali. Ali would not go through all that to come back. Williams would have lost to Liston but was great in courage and determination
MrTClubber 3 years ago
haha this is the kind of list nat fleischer would've come up with.can't see how you can rate any fighter on hearsay and a few grainy film clips.
duskejw 2 years ago
Ali in the 60's fought people that were not ranked for the title, Cleveland Williams at 33 three shots to the stomach lost a kidney small intestines and nerve damage caused his left leg to wobble. Now he might have been knocked down by Ali four times but remember he had courage and was a tough customer. Liston knew it and thats why he destroyed him early because he probably knew he had a chance in the early rounds to win. He always got up when knocked down.
MrTClubber 3 years ago