How to write the book of mormon

[buzzsaw82003]

As you may know, the answer to the real "The Challenge" that the LDS church put out in the late 1970's and early 80's is James MacPherson and the "Ossian Chronicles". If you look at the parallels between Joseph Smith and MacPherson, they are striking. Both wrote at an early age, translated plates that he dug up in Scotland etc. MacPherson had the chance to admit his story before he died. Smith didn't.

[CTR831]

Perhaps they didn't as there was so much persecution. Without hand means without authority. I know the Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints is true. You were a member, now you spend a great portion of your time trying to tare it down like Alma the younger. It is true that those who once belonged to it can no longer leave it alone.

[testskriftene]

If the church is NOT true, would you like to know?

[CTR831]

I am sure you have a lot of reason why you think the church is not true. I testify that it is true. I prayed to know.

[testskriftene]

But would you like to know? Yes/no answer is best

[CTR831]

I dont ask man, I ask God.

[testskriftene]

thats ok. But would you know?

[Burningupbunny]

If the cruch isn't true, prove it. Oh, wait you can't, cuz it IS true. Duh!

[testskriftene]

Would you know?

[testskriftene]

Its ok that you dont want to know from man, but God. But do you want to know if the church is not true if it was not?

[FC275]

CTR831 said:

"I know the Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints is true."

how can a false church be true?

how can a false prophet be true?

Joe Smith made up the BoM, if not, show us the museums filled with BoM relics? we have museums filled with Mayan, Aztec, NA, where are the BoM?

he had his chance, but now that the JS Papyri were found, clear evidence that the BoA is false, he no know Egyptian

he can't talk like an Egyptian,

he can't dance like an Egyptian

end of story, JS is a fruad

[CTR831]

A man or woman must be born of the water and of the Spirit. I have been born again through the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are saved by grace after all we can do including sacred Temple ordinances. When the temple veil was rent after the Saviour departed for the spirit world, it was not the end of temple worship.

[testskriftene]

How was it for you, to become born again? Do you really think you have true faith in Jesus as you think you must do much extra work in ordered to be saved? I would say that is not trusting Jesus to save you..

[CTR831]

Faith without works is dead.

[testskriftene]

Definitely. But it does not save anyone. People can be saved by GRAE trough faith. Faith produces works. Its like a duck naturally quaks. Christians have been born again, become new creatures... therefore, works come naturally...

[CTR831]

Truly the Saviour is the only means whereby man may be saved. We will be judged 'according' to the knowledge we have. Just as baptism is essential so it is with temple ordinances performed by correct authority. Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple...

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

[testskriftene]

apostles witnessed to jews in temple.... they did not worship or do anything in the temple...

[CTR831]

You didn't write the Bible. I know it is true.

I also Know the Book of Mormon is Scripture.

[testskriftene]

Have you been born again trough faith in Jesus? If you die tonight, would you live with God?

[DETHKLOK94110]

mathew 24:23

[HiveRadical]

This video uses a 'fools gold' version that tries to mimic the appearance of Nibley's points. But it both distorts the reason for pointing out various requisites AND it gives falsehoods or misrepresentations. It's patently dishonest. I find it funny that those same people who get on Smith for not meeting their bar for being 'honest' also do not themselves meet the bar they set for Joseph Smith. Hypocrites.

[grnmessiah]

Hive--

What in this video is inaccurate? Joseph couldn't have been taught by his father, who worked as a school teacher, certainly.

Neither could he have been taught by his brother, the school superintendent, or his mother the school teacher.

The best explanation of Nephi's steel bow from LDS sources is "mistranslation", does that mean that someone reading characters with translations underneath out of a hat, by the gift and power of God, could make that mistranslation?

[grnmessiah]

Are you claiming that there is a bottomless well of archeological evidence for the wars of the Nephites and their Breastplates, Shoulder platse, head plates, swords, etc?

Nephi had a steel bow 1000 years before the advent of spring steel (the type of steel that bows can be made out of); don't you find that interesting?

[grnmessiah]

Wouldn't that be God's fault?

[HiveRadical]

Do you know the speed at which present understanding of components of long past ages can change? How fragile current claims, like the time of the advent of 'spring steel' can change?

[grnmessiah]

Is that the argument from there's an extremely small chance that we don't know when the earliest process to produce spring steel came about, so the Book of Mormon is true?

[HiveRadical]

No.

It's the argument that assessing probability for the truth or untruth of current perceptions is impossible because we don't have access to everything left from the past AND not everything from the past is evident or derivable from what is, or could be, made available. So the claims

[HiveRadical]

of the Book of Mormon regarding steel, and other items, are not disproved. The formulation of your statement is classic because it distorts this, you try and set us as giving some things as proof for our view when we are presenting them merely in defense of the plausibility of our claims, not of the truth of them.

[grnmessiah]

Alright, I'll give a parallel--let's assume that you say that the dodo is extinct, and I counter with "You can't prove that the dodo is extinct".

Would it be reasonable to argue that the Dodo is not extinct? I cannot prove that God does not exist unless I examine every molecule of the universe at the same instant.

Am I reasonably sure that God does not exist, even though I don't have all knowledge? YES!

Am I more sure that Mormonism is false, though I don't have access to all history? YES!

[HiveRadical]

And this is stable and reasonable why? a few decades back for a scientist to say that there were extra dimensions was laughable. They could use the same argumentation. Yet now about half of Physicists graduating from Universities with degrees in physics are focusing their careers on a theory that asserts at least 11 of them. How is that stance more reasonable? Bertrand's teapotesque claims are simply not comparable because they remove the context of the issue of God.

[grnmessiah]

You are arguing from the stance that you know a lot about Quantum physics? Aren't you the one who was arguing that the earth had a 6000 year temporal existence?

[HiveRadical]

I wasn't arguing a 6000 year existence for the earth, fallen man on earth, yes, earth itself, no.

[grnmessiah]

Are you claiming that nothing died before Adam fell 6000 years ago and Quantum principles in radiometric dating are accurate?

You are an enigma--you are trying to prove your points by saying that we don't fully understand quantum physics while denying what quantum physics has proven beyond reasonable doubt.

[grnmessiah]

You misunderstand my argument. You are arguing that archeology continues to uncover evidence and that the fact that no evidence exists at present is of no consequence.

I am relating your assertion that it's true because we don't have all evidence to prove it absolutely false is roughly equal to the argument that the dodo is not extinct because we cannot be everywhere on the planet at the same time to absolutely prove that there isn't a dodo hiding somewhere.

[grnmessiah]

Archeology isn't quite the same as Quantum-Physics; Quantum Physics is a developing science--it wasn't really started until the late 1800's. Every year there are big archeological finds, but I am willing to bet anything that they will never find a city like Zerehemla.

How many cities had over 1 million inhabitants and walls at least 20' high?

Likewise, if someone came up with steel to make a bow with, I doubt that they wouldn't be asked to make another.

[grnmessiah]

I believe that the multidimension hypothesis was proposed in the early 20's by multiple leading quantum-physicists; there weren't many Quantum Physicists who doubted the parallel universe hypothesis.

Still, we've been digging in the ground for time en memoriam and have failed to find anything, while Quantum physics wasn't even theory until the 1890's.

[HiveRadical]

The world of physics viewed those who proposed multiple dimensions, up until just a few decades back, as crackpots. Either that or you have NOVA with physicists spouting lies about the state of physics over the past century.

[grnmessiah]

NOVA! Grand! I've got several books on introductory quantum physics, I think that it was 1921 when Einstein suddenly understood the parallel universe hypothesis while crossing the road and was so amazed by what had dawned on him that he stopped crossing the intersection and stood as if in a trance.

He was by no means the first to propose it. It wasn't an extremely unpopular theory.

Nova isn't college level--it's for stupid people who prefer watching TV to reading books.

[HiveRadical]

There's a difference between believing in parallel universes and believing in 11 dimensions. But only stupid people who get their information from reading AND watching AND listening AND other media that are stupid enough to learn something from anything that's not in print form or that hasn't passed through a college bookstore.

[grnmessiah]

If there are multiple accounts that argue against a television program designed for the dim, from the physicists themselves, and from modern physicists, which would you be more inclined to agree with?

Diaries by Physicists or television announcers saying what they believe that the physicists thought?

[grnmessiah]

Parallel universes have all but been proven. Which prominent physicist didn't come around to believing in higher dimensions of space, in the early days?

Why did you even bring up the whole quantum-physics thing, oh genius who believes that nothing that was on earth died before 6000 years ago?

[grnmessiah]

I could use the argument 'we don't know that Joseph Smith didn't just make up the book of Mormon and recite it from memory?', and it would be equally valid.

[HiveRadical]

Because you are assuming that we are presenting things as proof of our position rather than proof of the plausibility of our position.

[grnmessiah]

So Joseph Smith, son of two parents who taught grades 1-12 in a one room schoolhouse, couldn't have done it any other way?

What of the plausibility that Sidney Rigdon stole Solomon Spaulding's (Old 'it came to pass', as he was known) second manuscript from the publishing company?

There's plenty of evidence for that from before Hurlburt.

[omiolo]

"In one sense, Mormonism began with a book." This, in turn, "...spawned a prolific amount of published material expounding and defending the early doctrines and history of the movement.""

[grnmessiah]

Nibley wrote quite a bit about the Two facsimiles that were discovered.

You should look it up. What would you do if your precious Pearl of Great Price were just a funeral ceremony of Hor?

[omiolo]

"What would you do if your precious Pearl of Great Price were just a funeral ceremony of Hor? "

so you are one of those people who think the PGP is the book of breathings?

[grnmessiah]

Nibley verified it.

Can you bring forth any evidence that it isn't?

Is it logical to believe that it isn't?

[omiolo]

"Nibley verified it."

No, he verified that the PGP wasn't the book of breathings. Which we all ready knew. The book of breathings is something else.

"Can you bring forth any evidence that it isn't?"

I can, but will I? of course not! Which is fine because we went over the proof in a class at byu. But we were asked not to share it with others. but I love to hear the contrary from ANTImormons.

[grnmessiah]

So you took a class at YBU that was so farcical that they told you not to tell anyone else about it? That was quality education there, let me tell you.

[omiolo]

"That was quality education there, let me tell you."

for some reason your evaluation of my education means very little.

[grnmessiah]

Did you take Biochemistry at BYU or some other university?

Was a class on the POGP required for a biochem major, or do you just love to learn useless falsehoods?

[omiolo]

"Did you take Biochemistry at BYU or some other university?"

some other university

"Was a class on the POGP required for a biochem major, or do you just love to learn useless falsehoods?"

actually the class was how to look smarter than a high school graduate

[grnmessiah]

What was your major at YBU?

[grnmessiah]

Did you switch your major to biochem from physics after the cold fusion thing tanked?

[omiolo]

"Did you switch your major to biochem from physics after the cold fusion thing tanked?"

actually I wanted to switch my major to physics during the debacle and work for Jones like many of my friends were since Jones was saying that the U of U cold fusion was a fraud. More of a rivalry thing.

[grnmessiah]

Umm, YBU is the one on the record as faking the research.

[omiolo]

kind of stupid video?

are we that desperate?

[grnmessiah]

Yes, yes you are.

Joseph Smith, an uneducated farmhand could recite chapters of the bible from memory, word for word, but he certainly couldn't have got the words out of the hat by any other means.

Interestingly, his book has remarkable similarity to Solomon Spaulding's Manuscript Found, which Sidney Rigdon was accused of stealing from the publishing company.

[omiolo]

"his book has remarkable similarity to Solomon Spaulding's Manuscript Found"

are you sure that isn't Manuscript Lost....you ANTImormons can't keep your stories straight.

[grnmessiah]

Manuscript Found--look it up. It is the second manuscript that was produced by Solomon Spaulding (Old "It Came To Pass").

He wrote two manuscripts Manuscript found and manuscript story. These were on two different paper sizes, according to eyewitnesses, so we can be relatively sure that they are two manuscripts (unless you could put words in a notebook that is positively identified as pocketbook size and a4).

[omiolo]

"Manuscript Found--look it up. It is the second manuscript that was produced by Solomon Spaulding (Old "It Came To Pass")."

does anyone have a copy of this manuscript or is it filed away with Michael Quinn's general conference talks?

[grnmessiah]

They have a copy of manuscript story--do you have a copy of the papyrus that Joseph Smith originally translated the Pearl of Great Price from?

Do you have the Gold Plates?

Do you think that they were buried alongside the kinderhook plates?

[omiolo]

"They have a copy of manuscript story"

you can't keep changing the story..we are discussing manuscript found. FOCUS!!

[grnmessiah]

The only copy is on record as being stolen from the typesetter by Sidney Rigdon, so no there is no copy.

[omiolo]

"so no there is no copy."

I assume you know that there are many holes in these stories.

Even Fawn Brodie who dismissed next to nothing dismissed these conspiracies.

[omiolo]

"do you have a copy of the papyrus that Joseph Smith originally translated the Pearl of Great Price from?"

all we have is some of the fascimilies.

good job though..most ANTImormons think we have the papyrus JS used to translate the PGP.

You are smarter than most of your cohorts.

[grnmessiah]

Actually, they were found. Look it up. Two of the facsimiles have been discovered.

"on Nov. 27, 1967, the Mormon-owned Deseret News announced that the "collection of papyrus manuscripts, long believed to have been destroyed in the Chicago fire of 1871, was presented to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints here Monday by the Metropolitan Museum of Art.""

[omiolo]

"Actually, they were found. Look it up"

did you NOT read my comments?

[omiolo]

"Do you think that they were buried alongside the kinderhook plates?"

the kinderhook plates...what a mess. If anyone could sift through the stories on both sides about these plates and come up with the truth. I think they should be translated.

[grnmessiah]

They did find them; there was an Ensign article on it.

The plates turned out to be what the people who sold them to him later claimed that they were; characters that they had etched into brass plates.

"I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found"--Joseph Smith.

[omiolo]

"They did find them; there was an Ensign article on it."

if I remember right it was a great article

"The plates turned out to be what the people who sold them to him later claimed that they were; characters that they had etched into brass plates."

a somewhat good fraud, yes

"of the person with whom they were found"--Joseph Smith."

shouldn't that be "---William Clayton" ???

[grnmessiah]

Now you are going off on the scribes, eh?

Did you ever see the version of the first vision that Joseph Smith wrote? Did you know that the version you currently believe was taken down by a scribe? Scribes are not very trustworthy; when the scribe wrote it down, the event took place 4 years earlier, in another town . . . for some reason you believe the version that a scribe took down--was Joseph lying in the version that he wrote down?

[omiolo]

"Did you ever see the version of the first vision that Joseph Smith wrote?"

since you ANTImormons have JS writing so many first visions. Why don't you specifically link me to the specific first vision version you are writing about?

[grnmessiah]

There's only one version that is in Joseph Smith's own hand--you'll note that he rarely wrote anything down; he usually had scribes write for him.

The current version was taken down by a scribe, I only know of one version that he wrote in his own hand.

[grnmessiah]

Should the title page of the 1830 Book of Mormon have said "Oliver Cowdery, Author and Proprietor" rather than "Joseph Smith, Author and Proprietor"?

[grnmessiah]

Well . . . You just try to explain the salamander that told Joseph Smith not to take the plates, then as Joseph tried to take the plates became a man and knocked him down!

You can't--there must have been divine influence.