LARRY HURTADO How did Jesus become a God

[LogosTheos]

(Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the God of Israel, pp.191)

[MaxGravitas]

Its blasphemous to say Jesus is Yahweh come in the flesh. Yahweh is the father, the only 'true God' as Jesus said. Jesus was monotheistic, calling his father 'my god' and telling others after his resurrection that the father was their God, not himself. Yahweh, the god of the Israelites was Jesus' God, the head of Jesus 1 Cor 11:3. OT scriptures that were applied to Jesus in the NT were only done to show Jesus was the true reflection and agent of Yahweh, God the father, no that Jesus was Yahweh.

[LogosTheos]

@MaxGravitas, "OT scriptures that were applied to Jesus in the NT were only done to show Jesus was the true reflection and agent of Yahweh, God the father, no that Jesus was Yahweh"

This is a low grade explanation brother. For example Richard Bauckham notes that allusions to the OT in Pauline Christology function as either "monotheistic assertions in themselves or relate to a fairly monotheistic assertion in the fairly immediate context".. Joel 2:32 to Acts 2:21, Rom 10:9-13 is a clear app

[comdragon90]

u all should build greenhouse building over farmland to grow more crops....

[brucefetter]

Dr Thompson's God of the Gospel of John is fantastic in this regard. Really worth reading in conjunction with Hurtado. Both show ably that Jesus as God was not some new thing, but an outflow of Jewish Christology, high from the start.

[855842]

The bible Numbers 23:19 (New International Version)

19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.

Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

[855842]

John 5:19 (New International Version) 19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself

God is all power all knowing all wise...jesus cant do anything without gods will

[agnostaxian]

How did Jesus become a God? easy, his disciples and Jesus himself claimed that he was the presence of God on earth.

[betlamed]

"It would have been a breach of monotheism, and I can't imagine that Paul would have done it" - argument from ignorance.

"I don't think that it should be called a breach of monotheism, because Paul and other christian jews insisted that it isn't." - Argument from authority.

In summary, a breach of logic.

[danydidaskos]

he's gonna be my professor this summer at Regent College, BC

an good question to ask?

[OhStylo]

Three steps to become a GOD: 1.st - Be either true of heart or have the darkest soul of all of mankind. 2.ndly - Believe whatever you wan't to, but BELIEVE it, and find others that do the same, gather them around you. 3.rdly - Your body has to die for your soul to to ascend; if lucky, you might be resurrected in your bodily form, but risks are that (if there are) other gods will destroy you, lest you might be able to claim their domains. But well, Q 'd f*ck 'em all up.

[betlamed]

The guy has never heard of Q...

[danydidaskos]

@betlamed Q does not exist! is not data! is an possible explanation of the relationship betwen the gospels

[betlamed]

@danydidaskos Atoms don't exist either, they're just the best explanation we have for certain phenomena.

Q is not "a possbile explanation", but the best explanation we have for the relationships between the gospels.

So if you want to say anything relevant in the area of NT history, you either assume Q's existence, or you come up with a better explanation - and show how it's better.

[danydidaskos]

@betlamed My friend, we are talking about history

and text and documents. We have never found a single document that contains only Q

and there are some scholars that argue about the existence of Q. For example profesor Rikk Watts (Phd Cambridge) who is an specialist in Gospel of Mark. Q is not data, because we do not have Q!!!!

is a figment of the imagination of biblical scholars.

Finally, we'll never know for sure. Actually I agree with you that can be the best explanation, but is not data.

[betlamed]

@danydidaskos Yes sure - if you have a better explanation, you are welcome to come forward with it. If not, the rational way is still to assume Q's existence. Hurtado doesn't present any valid arguments against the current mainstream historical model (which indeed does assume Q). How does he explain the absence of Jesus' divinity in Mark? "Veneration" and "speaking in his name" does not assume divinity at all.

[danydidaskos]

@betlamed

Well, actually in the book

Isaiah's New Exodus in Mark

Dr Rikk Watts made a very good case for the high christology in Mark

This thesis was grade as excellent even by Martin Hengel, emeritus Professor of New Testament and Early Judaism at the University of Tübingen

if you can, take a look!

blessings

[wedge2006]

@betlamed I've always find it fascinating that some of these "scholars", like Robert Price, as more certain of the existence of Q than Jesus himself. lol

[betlamed]

@wedge2006 Q is purely hypothetical, but it's the best explanation for the given data we have. Jesus' existence doesn't necessarily explain all that much.

[danydidaskos]

@betlamed I'm reading is book, about this subject and he took 30 pag to talk about Q. And he also does it in his lectures, I'm studying this course with him now

[ihatesigninsalot]

Ok, first of all Jesus isn't a God (I'd like to point out that the capital G in God is actually capatalized because that is a name) and in John he states that the father and I are one because of the Holy Spirit, Jesus has the Holy Spirit in him, God's holy Spirit. So no, Jesus did not become a God, or god. And niether did he become a god. One other thing is the fact that a strong evidence this guy uses is that we sing hyms in honor of Jesus, therfore he must be a god. What we call him is ireleva

[TaSwavo]

Very interesting. The last sentence sums it up.

"a manifestation and vehicle of the One True God"

That's not an incarnation.

I love the book by 'Jimmy Dunn' (as Hurtado calls him) I read and perhaps now I will read some Hurtado too :)

[JohnnyCeley]

He mentions the early Christians baptizing in Jesus' name. Why do the vast majority of Christians not do that anymore?

[daughterofZion06]

Jesus IS God. He clearly stated so several times, such as in John 17 when He prayed that all believers would be one as He and the Father are One. Speaking of which, He prayed that we would be one "so the world may believe" that the Father sent Him! I wonder how many more people would be rejoicing in eternal life right now if we would stop arguing over empty words and be united in our common love of Christ?

[ProfessorDolan]

Even if not ultimately persuaded by Hurtado, one should take him seriously. He's been the leading figure in exploring this question for years, and what he says cannot be dismissed out of hand.

[Paulkazey1]

@djbehemoth

Mark Chapter 6 has Jesus "Passing by" like a 'ghost" walking on the water. This is clearly a reference to Yahweh "passing by" Moses in the septuagint (the same word in Greek is used) Exodus 33. In Job God is seen as walking on the water. Also, Jesus says in Mark 6: 50 "Ego Eimi" which taken with the references to 'Passing By" and "Walking on Water" is a clear theophany. Yahweh has visited his people.

[Paulkazey1]

@djbehemoth Maurice Casey is welcome to his position. However, I prefer Paul barnett's "Paul, Missionary of Jesus: After Jesus, Vol. 2." Martin Hengel and Peter Stuhlmacher of Tubingen University all affirm it is most likely that Saul who became Paul (and who instigated Stephen's death) was a student of Gamaliel and a Pharisee. If people want to ignore historical documents in the name of Post Modernist revisionism that is up to them.

[Paulkazey1]

Mark Chapter 1 says it all. The prophecy introducing John the Batist ministry speaks of "Adonai" (Yahweh) coming. We have the Trinitarian revelation at Jesus baptism, Father's proclomation, the son being baptised and the descent of the Spirit. Try seeing the wood for the trees.......... please!! Mark is regarded as the earliest Gospel too!

[Paulkazey1]

Your take on Dunn that he claims that "early Johanninne Christians are pagan Jesus worshipping polytheists" is so misguided. Try reading Dunn's book rather than the dust jacket.

[Paulkazey1]

Read the New Testament. Paul was a converted Pharisee and honoured Jesus as God's Son and divine. Read Daniel 7.

[bandaidmafia]

The work of James Dunn is masterly, Hurtado is not even close to his level. Modern scholarship doesn't even remotely support this apologist masquerading as a historical scholar. For real expertise read Dunn, Raymond Brown, John Meier etc.

[Paulkazey1]

It is clear that Paul was a believer in a divine Son. Daniel 7 has a divine being ushered into God's throne. The seeds of orthodox Christology is present in the Old Testament let alkone the New.

[benadam74]

Christians worshipped [proskuneo] Jesus as Lord Messiah; but there's an exclusive "sacred worship" [latreuo] rendered to the "only true God" [Jn 17.3].

[LehisLibrary]

The word "origin" is misspelled in second 24.

[benadam74]

Jesus was clearly functioning in an unprecedented way?? "...our fathers were all under b the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and ALL WERE BAPTIZED INTO MOSES..." 1Cor 10; "you [Moses] shall be God to him [Aaron]...And the LORD [YHWH] said to Moses, See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet." Ex 4.16; 7.1