Two Concepts Of Liberty

[LikeAGlassAsterisk]

Mill's conception of liberty is positive not negative albeit individualist. The key distinction between positive and negative liberty lies not in whether you will be forced to be free, but whether freedom requires a certain internal state. One can defend a positive conception of freedom without defending tyranny. Most people just are afraid that if they grant that a person with a certain ethical outlook, or with certain desires is unfree, that this leads to the temptation of state tyranny.

[Pittounikos]

Its weird that Tony Blair wrote a letter to Isaiah Berlin asking his permission for socialism.

Its weird because in Isaiah Berlins brilliant biography of Karl Marx, Berlin tells the story of the early Russian revolutionaries writing a letter to Karl Marx asking his permission for socialism! I wander if Berlin spotted the irony?

[Noobwarriking]

well make a video about it

that is news to me

and why are you leaving this comment all over videos with the topic of positive and negative freedom

[Pittounikos]

Hello, yes its true. Marx ruled that societies must first pass through the capitalist mode of production before flowering into socialism. Russia was still at the feudal level back then. So the Russians wrote Marx a letter asking his permission to leapfrog capitalism and go straight to socialism. (Marx said yes).

I'm not sure I posted the comment all over . Ill check. Sometimes we forget wer we'v been when the musics 2 loud. I hope this helps.

[BrytaPlanka]

Hah, interesting. I didnt think of negativ freedom like that before, but it sounds logical that its a dilemma there... I will remember this.

[GrowthSpiral]

its interestign that people forget that Berlin takes this concept partially from Erich Fromm - Escape From Freedom

[Noobwarriking]

is that interesting?

why?

[GrowthSpiral]

@Noobwarriking no need for the sarcasm - its just that Fromm spoke of parallel thoughts in 1941.

[Noobwarriking]

well is that to show off your intellectual chops or do you have a relevant point?

i mean obviously you are telling me this because i did not mention him and that is because i do not know much of him but does this mentioning have any bearing on the discussion?

so again: why is it interesting?

[GrowthSpiral]

@Noobwarriking no not at all - i guess its interesting to me alone! :) just thought it would be "interesting to bring up" - basically Fromm posited "freedom to" and freedom from" in his book mentioned above, id ont have the book handy to look deeper

[Noobwarriking]

well ok

i just thought you were stabbing at me

i obviously mistook your remark

sorry

i think if i find a little bit of time in my christmas-schedule i will look the book up on the net

[GrowthSpiral]

@Noobwarriking nah not at all - i just am big fan of fromm and recall reading the parallels - i honestly have to read berlin's essay i have his book on my shelf - just havent' done it and came across your vid from veritas response :)

[mavaddat]

Noobwar, I didn't get why you assume that a political and social transformation would require "positive liberty" (forcing people) to be brought about. You seem to just ask "isn't it true that...?" without actually providing an argument. Can you clarify? Thanks!

[Noobwarriking]

i think i made it a bit clearer in the answervideo i just made so check that out

[mavaddat]

Thanks. Will do.

[VeritasEtLibertas82]

Thank you for sending this to me, it's an excellent question -- I will reply soon.

[Noobwarriking]

i am looking forward to it