@Belmar Thank you for pointing out that there is evidence that chiropractic manipulation does work whether you or anyone else does it. Chiro however is recognised as a high velocity low amplitude thrust in a specific direction. However this is a long lever nonspecific thrust if you knew anything and is actually Osteopathic. There is evidence to prove that is effective too. If you knew anything, when medicine and physio told the world manipulation didn't work we were developing the skills.
Ah the party adjustment as I call it, alot of flack from chiros in the comments yet they would perform the same move, only more often standing if cornered at a party by a patient needing a quick fix. Issue I have is that thousands to millions of people will now try these moves ... is that your purpose to be a how to video? skip the Dr and just go to youtube instead? I'm debating if I want to do this with skill set & adjustments. But these videos do rack up the views, has it helped the practice?
I used to do this manipulation to my friends when I was in high school. The range of motion is increased but where did the range come from? It probably came from a region that was already moving normally. A quick cavitation anywhere will increase rom as you move the joint through it's "paraphysical zone" the ligaments stretch momentarily but will return to the normal zone for protection of the nervous system. It is imperative for the adjustment to be where the patient needs it, you need to
Thanks for sharing your educational video and accept my apologizes for the criticism from chiropractic fans. I'm a Doctor of Chiropractic and have performed this type of regional mobilization technique myself. It's effective for certain patients. Thanks again.
I don't understand why people here are saying "this adjustment sucks, use chiro!". That's like me seeing a video about Pyramid Power and saying "NO YOU IDIOT, SPHERES HAVE THE REAL NATURAL HEALING POWER". Snake Oil is Snake Oil. Unless we're talking about using Indigo-colored rings that harnesses Compassion to heal someone, that's legit. Green Lantern does NOT lie. Indigo = Compassion = Healing.
I couldn't agree more... there is no skill or science behind this "manipulation". What is the thought process behind it? I could easily teach my 13 year old nephew to do such a thing without even being trained it. Chiropractors are more specific, more highly trained, get better results, and even have more research backing them up as if that mattered. The chiropractic adjustment is far superior to this manipulation.
@MrCoyne44 "Chiropractors are more specific, more highly trained, get better results, and even have more research backing them up as if that mattered." Care to share any of this so called research. You will find that most of the research showing the benefits of thoracic manipulation has been done by physical therapists. Furthermore, the research proving the effectiveness of thoracic manipulation used the exact procedure in this video. So there is science behind this manipulation.
@I agree with what you say here, however, I have to wonder whether creating artificial looseness (cavitation causing increased volume and separation of joint surfaces) makes sense if one can move one's neck through a complete ROM and remove the obstruction w/out causing cavitation (ala Brian Mulligan, PT)
I'd like to see this research too, as the only thing I see done by chiros are case studies. PTs are the ones doing the higher quality research on this stuff, and the evidence provided supports manipulation for acute pain with targeted exercises to the cervical/thoracic region done by PTs. And the research out there shows manipulations are 'specific' anyways, no matter how specific you may think they are. You target a manipulation at T2-3, odds are you will also manipulate T1-2 and T3-4.
@MrCoyne44 Specificity is often required with many manipulative techniques, however what is often lacking is "integration" and manipulative treatment which re-segmentalises reflexley isolated structures to the whole unit is often what produces beneficial change to the organism. An isolated reductionist thrust technique is often just that. Isolated and .... reductionist. Any technique which produces change providing it is not dangerous or painful (and therefore a potential irritant ) is useful.
@b8njy Most manips intended for 'perceived' fixated joints, end up transmitting the force through the path of least resistance which leads toward joints which are already mobile. Pain can modulate, but it doesn't change the perceived fixated joint; but then again, in some instances, it just might not matter. Many Chiro's actually agree with this thought.
@MrCoyne44 Specificity is often required with many manipulative techniques, however what is often lacking is "integration" and manipulative treatment which re-segmentalises reflexley isolated structures to the whole unit is often what produces beneficial change to the organism. An isolated reductionist thrust technique is often just that. Isolated and .... reductionist. Any technique which produces change providing it is not dangerous or painful (and therefore a potential irritant ) is useful.
@MrCoyne44 Specificity is often required with many manipulative techniques, however what is often lacking is "integration" and manipulative treatment which re-segmentalises reflexley isolated structures to the whole unit is often what produces beneficial change to the organism. An isolated reductionist thrust technique is often just that. Isolated and .... reductionist. Any technique which produces change providing it is not dangerous or painful (and therefore a potential irritant ) is useful.
Thoracic spine manipulation for the management of patients with neck pain: a randomized clinical trial. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2009 Jan;39(1):20-7.
González-Iglesias J, Fernández-de-las-Peñas C, Cleland JA, Gutiérrez-Vega Mdel R.
search pubmed for "thoracic spine manipulation neck pain"
There is a lot of high quality research on manipulations being produced by physical therapists.
Nice and simple regarding the demonstration and explanation. Anyone trained or credentialed in education will recognize that. Thanks for sharing. Wow, there are a lot of people with some issues here. I am a doctor of PT with 20 years of manual therapy experience. Manipulation is a shared procedure across many disciplines...actually Indian barbers and Turkish bath attendants use manipulation more often than all of us put together! Ha!
@GTPTms Thank you. Looks like you understand what I was trying to accomplish with this video. You are correct. No single profession "owns" manipulation.
@BelmarPT ...You are welcome. Look what you started, Ha! The PT-Chiro Jihad. Puleeze! I love the practice of manipulation, although eclectic, I utilize more osteopathic manipulation as I really like the precision of multiple levers, operator body position, etc. PT's trained in these aspects of manip tend to be very adept at addressing the junctional zones. Regardless, manipulation is just one facet (ha!) of many in addressing pain restoring function. Keep up the good work!
@GTPTms I have to say your correct. Manipulation is an art form and not everyone practicing it is an artist. It all comes down the the belief system of the practitioner and their desire to learn, apply the treatment and hone their skills. The only reason most D.O.'s are not proficient at it is because they stopped doing it. As a matter of fact, manipulation is now an elective at most osteopathic colleges.
Actually not quite. Physical therapy is 4 years of undergraduate followed by a three year doctoral program (DPT). Which is the exact same education required for chiropractors. Physical Therapists also have far more extensive training in musculoskeletal intervention and do not rely solely on manipulation and spinal alignment to alleviate temporary radicular or localized symptoms. PTs also have training in imaging and are proficient in every HVLAT technique that a chiro is.
I think only chiros should manipulate. ...They are "doctors" and go to college for 7 years. Physical therapists on the other hand only go to college for 7 years and shouldn't be allowed to manipulate because are obviosly not as educated as chiros
So you just said they both receive 7 years of education and they both are doctoral degrees. Way to contradict yourself. PT's are highly trained in both neuromuscular and musculoskeletal modalities and are more than qualified to manipulate. Also, unlike chiros, they focus heavily on strenghening and exercising to cure the problem instead of having to be adjusted on a monthly basis. You are a dumbass and should refrain from posting because it just shows everyone how much of an idiot you are.
@neilbot556 PT are quite simply glorified personal trainers!! How much education does it take to think 'i have a ACL knee injury' therefore .............strengthen the muscles around it-hams,quads, gastroc, adductors!!!! personal trainers are quite capable of coming to the same conclusion!!SIMPLES
haha glorified personal trainers huh? i'd slug u right in the cock. u do not know half as much as a PT...more importantly, u dont have the ability to examine, evaluate, diagnose, and treat so u can take ur personal training degree and shove it up ur tight little asshole
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. It would be insulting enough to call us glorified "athletic trainers" yet alone personal trainers. Personal trainers don't have a clue how to work with pathologic musculoskeletal problems. Except for only a few, they can't even perform strengthening and conditioning properly. I always see personal trainers in gym's doing the same workout with a 20 year old as they do a 50 year old. Guess what, the 50 year old ends up in PT.
Are you people idiots? That is called sarcasm. I'm sick and tired of hearing chiro's call themselves doctors all the time when PTs have just as much education and are probably "safer" manipulators. Obviously though not all PT's are all that intelligent either....may Neilbot should go to chiropractic school.
@kevinharriet12 Reuter et a J Neurol2006l. reported 36 cases of vertebral artery dissection seen within three years in 13 neurological centres.41 On admission, 30 of these patients had neurological deficits; on discharge this figure had decreased to 18. Spinal manipulation had been administered by orthopaedic surgeons (50%), physiotherapists (14%), chiropractors (11%) or other health-care professionals. I
@shaxyr Considering the VAST number of cervical manips chiropractic vs the rest of the healthcare profession perform I reckon chiro trained is better.
Physical therapists, who have manual therapy certification are instructed in safer and more localized manipulation, one segment at a time. Chiro's often use quick rotational multisegment techniques that a risky but time efficient. Research the trainin of both before you judge. You have your opinion because there is one thing chiros do better than any other medical profession, MARKET themselves.
kevin: Get your facts straight. First off, it is not the duration of the training that should be front and centre of any debate, but the evidence that supports the intervention (ie spinal manipulation). Second, it should be based in sound science, not some whacked out philosophy of "vitalism" and "subluxation", neither of which have any scientific basis in this domain. Finally, the length of schooling is comparable, so don't worry about that part. Be more concerned that it is evidence-based.
Also most state practice acts for chiropractic make it illegal for PT's to use manips, even though PT's use safer and more specific manips. Trust me, the APTA's argument that our manipulations are not chiropractic techniques does not hold up in court. Its frustrating, I'm a Maitland Certified Orthopedic Manual Therapist, and I can't use the manipulations a paid to learn. Research the failed attempts to fight for manips by PT's. They were slammed with fines for each treatment, losing in court.
I like your enthusiasm. But don't let things mislead you. Direct access doesn't mean anything if the insurances aren't on board. I work in Florida and there is direct access, but most insurances require a doctor referral for reimbursement.
most of the time pt are not doing any special other than to waste patient time and rob insurance. most insurance will pay between 20 and 30 visits. that work out to about 1.5 to 2 months. that is what pts base their treatment plans on. they give up on their patients as soon as the insurance ran out. because pts charges some rediculously high fee for doing nothing, patients are afraid to come back. that is why patient don't go to pt on a regular basis.
people have to go back to a chiropractor because they don't take care of themself like you want them to. abnormal synovial fluid shift and meniscoid entrapement will happen know matter what you do. the fluid shift and entrapment can be prolong indefinitely. there is no preventing that or telling if it is happening until the pain get unbearable. some people like to get manipulated to keep from suffering. that is why people have to go back to get manipulated.
Yes but the T/S is very commonly restricted in multiple segments and is safe to manipulate in a non-specific technique. I prefer supine or prone techniques rather than the one above. The supine "pistol" manipulation is the only one that will isolate to one segment.
Your statements are based on ignorance and false propaganda. Your criticism is that "chiro's make patients come back many times?" Have you even stepped foot inside the typical PT clinic? Talk about extensive, redundant, wasteful visits! You're just a student, and have practically no knowledge of clinical reality. Check back in 5 years when you get some experience under your belt.
I have experience and he/she is correct. I work in therapy and I see patients who get well and move on with their lives. They don't come back every month for an "adjustment". If you have to keep coming back, how is that fixing anything????
Redundant, wasteful visits? PT's use manual therapy and progression of an exercise program to transition to self management of symptoms. Chiro's do set up patients for long term repeat visits. That would be why most continuing education for chiro's is practice building and marketing that largely emphasizes selling the patient on continuing with treatment even when asymptomatic.
Manual therapy is teached in many university's master degree after the bachelor in physical therapy. A physical therapy may also learn it in many private courses that takes name from their developer: Maitland, Mulligan, Kalterborn ecc... Of course a PT may study ostheopathy as a second bachelor degree. I have to say that in italy ostheopathy is not teached in university nor chiropractice because of the lack of evidences (EBM, evidence based medicine).
As a Doctor of Chiropractic, I can assure you that chiropractors do more than adjust/manupulation of the spine. For the past 13 years I have helped patient with progressive exercise to stabilize thier joints, I've helped patients regain balance and posture with neuromuscluar re-education, and diagnosed serious life-threatening conditions which were missed by Primary care providers and specialist. That's alot more than finding and fixing subluxations.
So basically you've started doing what PT's have done for decades. That is an obvious trend in chiropractic I've seen lately. Lots of signs now say ___ Chiropractic AND REHABILITATION. If subluxations and nerve flow were the answer, why the change?
None of the techniques I've been taught or use come from PT (as far as I know). I do believe that sometimes a regional (adjustment) manipulation rather than a specific segment is beneficial especially in the thoracic region.
As far as Chiropractic and rehabilitation, I don't think it is a new concept. We were tested on rehab in chiropractic college and on our national boards. In fact if you look at photos of BJ Palmers Clinic at Palmer College in the 30's-40's he had a complete rehab facility.
I never stated the subluxation and nerve flow were the answer. I believe chiropractic is important in helping normalized neurological function but certainly isn't the only modality that will help. I do alot of NCV/EMG testing and VNG for vertigo and balance. When I find a problem out of my scope or needing co-care I refer to a Doctor of P.T. and we have a good working relationship.
I am 23 years old and I'm in my 5th and final year of sports physiotherapy in Europe. After this year I would like to travel and maybe combine studying with working somewhere outside of europe.
If you should make the choice at the age of 23 with a degree in sports physiotherapy, would you chose to continue with
a) manual therapy
b) chiropractic scholing
or c) osteopathy
I don't really know what to expect from either one of them, osteopathy and manual therapy are taught in Belgium, chiro isn't
you have a wrong idea about those professions generally. Osteopathie was taught in Europe mostly as a technique not as profession (week-end seminar). Osteopathie in the States is a very structured profession with specialization full time hospital right, drug prescription right. Chiropractic is the same structured profession without drug prescription and less hospital right. Manual therapy is taught to some physical therapist the same as it was in France/Belgium in Week-end seminar;
This could be a beneficial relationship however many chiropractors do this but deem the PT as the "exercise person." Most PT's are very well skilled with manual therapy and would expect to utilize this skill set.
Spoken like a true "guru" that thinks a technique applied to the spine is a cure and is needed over and over again.
Do your research and realize that most of the quality studies that have been done on manipulation were done by PTs - Flynn, Childs, Fritz, Whitman, etc.
Manipulation is standard curriculum in physical therapy school, yearlong manual therapy courses (not weekend courses as you inaccurately suggest), fellowships and residency. Again, you are inaccurate.
I used this procedure with my wife who often experiences neck pain and it worked beautifully to loosen a persistent crick in her neck. It was well demonstrated and not abrupt so I didn't feel like I was in danger of hurting her which I sometimes worry about as I'm 190 lbs and she's 60 lbs lighter. Thank you.
Come on guys, where is your professionalism? We, and I include myself, an osteopath, are all health professionals. Regarding evidence, in fact there is little evidence in all disciplines, including medicine, physiotherapy, chiropractic, and and least of all osteopathy. A little bit of respect would go a long way in this discussion.
Thanks for your comment. We created this video for our blog as a demonstration for patients. Technical aspects were purposely left out in order to avoid confusion. I understand that as a chiropractor you are biased towards your profession but we've found that the evidence provided at the bottom of our post shows that physical therapists achieve great results with the procedures demonstrated. You can read the post at belmarpt[dot]com: Click on the Blog link & search for Thoracic Manipulation.
I'd strongly disagree. Physical therapists not only are trained to manipulate patients but also can are trained to match the right treatment with the condition. Chiro - it's always manipulation and based on a false ideology that your spine is out of alignment.
PT's will never be as proficient as chiros in spinal adjusting. PT's take elective and post-graduate courses (usually just a few hours) to learn manipulation, whereas chiros spend years training in a variety of specific techniques, unlike the slipshod procedure shown in the vid. And Chiropractic is not based on "spinal alignment," there is no such thing in a dynamic biological system. You also need a doctor's referral before you can treat, so a chiro is clearly the superior choice.
I'm a PT and agree and disagree. I think chiro's are more proficient with manips because you simply use them more often, but you are not better trained. I'm a certified manual therapist and trained extensively with Mulligan and Maitland techniques that are more specific that chiro manipulations. The problem is the utlilization of manips and a panacea for everything by chiro's. PT's manip (when legally allowed) to restore joint motion, not cure the sniffles.
I'm a PT as well working towards my manual therapy certification (coming from the the top manual PT school in the nation) and I agree that we are better trained and more specific than DC's with manipulations. Realize also that the philosophy of Chiropractic is based on bullshit. Some DC's are good people, some even know their anatomy and biomechanics, but my impression of them is just greedy, money-hungry people.
I agree. I have no beef with chiro's who treat musculoskeletal pathology - spine segment problems, discogenic pain, dural pain, nerve root impingement etc. But the subluxation and nerve flow theories I don't buy. Look up the website "chirotalk." It's a chiro blog most of whom came to the realization that they were duped in chiro school.
Chiro isn't the better choice solely due to the rationale behind you're technique. Correcting a subluxation, realignment. I'm not sure why you state chiro isn't based on spinal alignment, that is the core of what chiropractic is founded upon.
Physical therapists match the treatment to patients needs based on the current best evidence, not a one size fits all shake and bake chiropractic approach. That makes PT clearly the superior choice.
The subluxation "dogma" is the cornerstone of chiropractic and alive and well on your American Chiropractic Association website do a search for it.
i agree with webrehab. while chiropractic education may consist of more extensive manipulative concentration, physical therapists are more rounded and can approach a patient's treatment from not only aspects of joint mobility but also dynamic stability (through progressive resistive exercises). ultimately think about it, when was the last time you entered a chiropractors office and saw patient's working on strengthening core stabilizers.
imo manipulation is a portion of appropriate treatment, not the end all be all. in order to effectively treat, one must consider every aspect of function.
@Belmar Thank you for pointing out that there is evidence that chiropractic manipulation does work whether you or anyone else does it. Chiro however is recognised as a high velocity low amplitude thrust in a specific direction. However this is a long lever nonspecific thrust if you knew anything and is actually Osteopathic. There is evidence to prove that is effective too. If you knew anything, when medicine and physio told the world manipulation didn't work we were developing the skills.
shaxyr 1 week ago
Funny how you pieces of shit bash chiropractic then use manipulation in practice. Fucking jokes.
Triviaguy99 2 weeks ago
So this is where Payton Manning has been all season.
mdnickens01 2 months ago
Back cracker give me your money move waste of time and a con
nastymonsters2 3 months ago
Ah the party adjustment as I call it, alot of flack from chiros in the comments yet they would perform the same move, only more often standing if cornered at a party by a patient needing a quick fix. Issue I have is that thousands to millions of people will now try these moves ... is that your purpose to be a how to video? skip the Dr and just go to youtube instead? I'm debating if I want to do this with skill set & adjustments. But these videos do rack up the views, has it helped the practice?
Alohadr 4 months ago
I used to do this manipulation to my friends when I was in high school. The range of motion is increased but where did the range come from? It probably came from a region that was already moving normally. A quick cavitation anywhere will increase rom as you move the joint through it's "paraphysical zone" the ligaments stretch momentarily but will return to the normal zone for protection of the nervous system. It is imperative for the adjustment to be where the patient needs it, you need to
jmanc909 4 months ago
Thanks for sharing your educational video and accept my apologizes for the criticism from chiropractic fans. I'm a Doctor of Chiropractic and have performed this type of regional mobilization technique myself. It's effective for certain patients. Thanks again.
tahoedc1969 4 months ago
I don't understand why people here are saying "this adjustment sucks, use chiro!". That's like me seeing a video about Pyramid Power and saying "NO YOU IDIOT, SPHERES HAVE THE REAL NATURAL HEALING POWER". Snake Oil is Snake Oil. Unless we're talking about using Indigo-colored rings that harnesses Compassion to heal someone, that's legit. Green Lantern does NOT lie. Indigo = Compassion = Healing.
chriscumbag 7 months ago
a Nelson manipulation... ELBOWS together!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SchallierDieter 7 months ago
ohhhh , I need that!
slimES104block 8 months ago
my latest journal club presentation.. about thoracic manipulation and it show many benefits
marzosmith 1 year ago
Isn't that the dude from Forgeting Sarah Marshal?
knight398 1 year ago
I couldn't agree more... there is no skill or science behind this "manipulation". What is the thought process behind it? I could easily teach my 13 year old nephew to do such a thing without even being trained it. Chiropractors are more specific, more highly trained, get better results, and even have more research backing them up as if that mattered. The chiropractic adjustment is far superior to this manipulation.
MrCoyne44 1 year ago
@MrCoyne44 "Chiropractors are more specific, more highly trained, get better results, and even have more research backing them up as if that mattered." Care to share any of this so called research. You will find that most of the research showing the benefits of thoracic manipulation has been done by physical therapists. Furthermore, the research proving the effectiveness of thoracic manipulation used the exact procedure in this video. So there is science behind this manipulation.
BelmarPT 1 year ago 12
@BelmarPT Very true. The Cleland 2005 research proved that thoracic spine manipulation was effective for neck pain. That's 1-0 for PT!
charlespiette 8 months ago
@I agree with what you say here, however, I have to wonder whether creating artificial looseness (cavitation causing increased volume and separation of joint surfaces) makes sense if one can move one's neck through a complete ROM and remove the obstruction w/out causing cavitation (ala Brian Mulligan, PT)
ProPTRehab 5 months ago
I'd like to see this research too, as the only thing I see done by chiros are case studies. PTs are the ones doing the higher quality research on this stuff, and the evidence provided supports manipulation for acute pain with targeted exercises to the cervical/thoracic region done by PTs. And the research out there shows manipulations are 'specific' anyways, no matter how specific you may think they are. You target a manipulation at T2-3, odds are you will also manipulate T1-2 and T3-4.
trodeghero 11 months ago
@MrCoyne44 Specificity is often required with many manipulative techniques, however what is often lacking is "integration" and manipulative treatment which re-segmentalises reflexley isolated structures to the whole unit is often what produces beneficial change to the organism. An isolated reductionist thrust technique is often just that. Isolated and .... reductionist. Any technique which produces change providing it is not dangerous or painful (and therefore a potential irritant ) is useful.
b8njy 10 months ago
@b8njy Most manips intended for 'perceived' fixated joints, end up transmitting the force through the path of least resistance which leads toward joints which are already mobile. Pain can modulate, but it doesn't change the perceived fixated joint; but then again, in some instances, it just might not matter. Many Chiro's actually agree with this thought.
ProPTRehab 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MrCoyne44 Specificity is often required with many manipulative techniques, however what is often lacking is "integration" and manipulative treatment which re-segmentalises reflexley isolated structures to the whole unit is often what produces beneficial change to the organism. An isolated reductionist thrust technique is often just that. Isolated and .... reductionist. Any technique which produces change providing it is not dangerous or painful (and therefore a potential irritant ) is useful.
b8njy 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MrCoyne44 Specificity is often required with many manipulative techniques, however what is often lacking is "integration" and manipulative treatment which re-segmentalises reflexley isolated structures to the whole unit is often what produces beneficial change to the organism. An isolated reductionist thrust technique is often just that. Isolated and .... reductionist. Any technique which produces change providing it is not dangerous or painful (and therefore a potential irritant ) is useful.
b8njy 10 months ago
@MrCoyne44
I think the research you are looking for is:
Thoracic spine manipulation for the management of patients with neck pain: a randomized clinical trial. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2009 Jan;39(1):20-7.
González-Iglesias J, Fernández-de-las-Peñas C, Cleland JA, Gutiérrez-Vega Mdel R.
search pubmed for "thoracic spine manipulation neck pain"
There is a lot of high quality research on manipulations being produced by physical therapists.
LeBauerPT 9 months ago
Nice and simple regarding the demonstration and explanation. Anyone trained or credentialed in education will recognize that. Thanks for sharing. Wow, there are a lot of people with some issues here. I am a doctor of PT with 20 years of manual therapy experience. Manipulation is a shared procedure across many disciplines...actually Indian barbers and Turkish bath attendants use manipulation more often than all of us put together! Ha!
GTPTms 1 year ago 4
@GTPTms Thank you. Looks like you understand what I was trying to accomplish with this video. You are correct. No single profession "owns" manipulation.
BelmarPT 1 year ago 6
@BelmarPT ...You are welcome. Look what you started, Ha! The PT-Chiro Jihad. Puleeze! I love the practice of manipulation, although eclectic, I utilize more osteopathic manipulation as I really like the precision of multiple levers, operator body position, etc. PT's trained in these aspects of manip tend to be very adept at addressing the junctional zones. Regardless, manipulation is just one facet (ha!) of many in addressing pain restoring function. Keep up the good work!
wbaskin 1 year ago
@GTPTms I have to say your correct. Manipulation is an art form and not everyone practicing it is an artist. It all comes down the the belief system of the practitioner and their desire to learn, apply the treatment and hone their skills. The only reason most D.O.'s are not proficient at it is because they stopped doing it. As a matter of fact, manipulation is now an elective at most osteopathic colleges.
mg200442000 1 year ago
Is there a stitich of evidence for the benefit of this, aside from testimonials?
ospreylookout 1 year ago
Actually not quite. Physical therapy is 4 years of undergraduate followed by a three year doctoral program (DPT). Which is the exact same education required for chiropractors. Physical Therapists also have far more extensive training in musculoskeletal intervention and do not rely solely on manipulation and spinal alignment to alleviate temporary radicular or localized symptoms. PTs also have training in imaging and are proficient in every HVLAT technique that a chiro is.
Dorlan78 2 years ago
I think only chiros should manipulate. ...They are "doctors" and go to college for 7 years. Physical therapists on the other hand only go to college for 7 years and shouldn't be allowed to manipulate because are obviosly not as educated as chiros
kevinharriet12 2 years ago
So you just said they both receive 7 years of education and they both are doctoral degrees. Way to contradict yourself. PT's are highly trained in both neuromuscular and musculoskeletal modalities and are more than qualified to manipulate. Also, unlike chiros, they focus heavily on strenghening and exercising to cure the problem instead of having to be adjusted on a monthly basis. You are a dumbass and should refrain from posting because it just shows everyone how much of an idiot you are.
neilbot556 2 years ago
@neilbot556 PT are quite simply glorified personal trainers!! How much education does it take to think 'i have a ACL knee injury' therefore .............strengthen the muscles around it-hams,quads, gastroc, adductors!!!! personal trainers are quite capable of coming to the same conclusion!!SIMPLES
royburt 2 years ago
haha glorified personal trainers huh? i'd slug u right in the cock. u do not know half as much as a PT...more importantly, u dont have the ability to examine, evaluate, diagnose, and treat so u can take ur personal training degree and shove it up ur tight little asshole
closetmonsterjesse 2 years ago
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. It would be insulting enough to call us glorified "athletic trainers" yet alone personal trainers. Personal trainers don't have a clue how to work with pathologic musculoskeletal problems. Except for only a few, they can't even perform strengthening and conditioning properly. I always see personal trainers in gym's doing the same workout with a 20 year old as they do a 50 year old. Guess what, the 50 year old ends up in PT.
bisesik 2 years ago
Are you people idiots? That is called sarcasm. I'm sick and tired of hearing chiro's call themselves doctors all the time when PTs have just as much education and are probably "safer" manipulators. Obviously though not all PT's are all that intelligent either....may Neilbot should go to chiropractic school.
kevinharriet12 1 year ago
@kevinharriet12 Reuter et a J Neurol2006l. reported 36 cases of vertebral artery dissection seen within three years in 13 neurological centres.41 On admission, 30 of these patients had neurological deficits; on discharge this figure had decreased to 18. Spinal manipulation had been administered by orthopaedic surgeons (50%), physiotherapists (14%), chiropractors (11%) or other health-care professionals. I
shaxyr 1 week ago
@shaxyr Considering the VAST number of cervical manips chiropractic vs the rest of the healthcare profession perform I reckon chiro trained is better.
shaxyr 1 week ago
kevin, ur obviously a dumb fuck to think like that
closetmonsterjesse 2 years ago
Physical therapists, who have manual therapy certification are instructed in safer and more localized manipulation, one segment at a time. Chiro's often use quick rotational multisegment techniques that a risky but time efficient. Research the trainin of both before you judge. You have your opinion because there is one thing chiros do better than any other medical profession, MARKET themselves.
bisesik 2 years ago
kevin: Get your facts straight. First off, it is not the duration of the training that should be front and centre of any debate, but the evidence that supports the intervention (ie spinal manipulation). Second, it should be based in sound science, not some whacked out philosophy of "vitalism" and "subluxation", neither of which have any scientific basis in this domain. Finally, the length of schooling is comparable, so don't worry about that part. Be more concerned that it is evidence-based.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
please see above
kevinharriet12 1 year ago
Don't agree with this style of Manipulation..it MAY help with range of motion,,but it isn't going to help restore proper fuction in the long run.
Shadofx 2 years ago
Also most state practice acts for chiropractic make it illegal for PT's to use manips, even though PT's use safer and more specific manips. Trust me, the APTA's argument that our manipulations are not chiropractic techniques does not hold up in court. Its frustrating, I'm a Maitland Certified Orthopedic Manual Therapist, and I can't use the manipulations a paid to learn. Research the failed attempts to fight for manips by PT's. They were slammed with fines for each treatment, losing in court.
bisesik 2 years ago
I like your enthusiasm. But don't let things mislead you. Direct access doesn't mean anything if the insurances aren't on board. I work in Florida and there is direct access, but most insurances require a doctor referral for reimbursement.
bisesik 2 years ago
most of the time pt are not doing any special other than to waste patient time and rob insurance. most insurance will pay between 20 and 30 visits. that work out to about 1.5 to 2 months. that is what pts base their treatment plans on. they give up on their patients as soon as the insurance ran out. because pts charges some rediculously high fee for doing nothing, patients are afraid to come back. that is why patient don't go to pt on a regular basis.
wreckeclipse 2 years ago
You sound like you had a bad experience at one place. You shouldn't generalize about all.
bisesik 2 years ago
people have to go back to a chiropractor because they don't take care of themself like you want them to. abnormal synovial fluid shift and meniscoid entrapement will happen know matter what you do. the fluid shift and entrapment can be prolong indefinitely. there is no preventing that or telling if it is happening until the pain get unbearable. some people like to get manipulated to keep from suffering. that is why people have to go back to get manipulated.
wreckeclipse 2 years ago
Arent supine manipulations of the thoracic spine more specific?
padreco91 2 years ago
Yes but the T/S is very commonly restricted in multiple segments and is safe to manipulate in a non-specific technique. I prefer supine or prone techniques rather than the one above. The supine "pistol" manipulation is the only one that will isolate to one segment.
bisesik 2 years ago
Your statements are based on ignorance and false propaganda. Your criticism is that "chiro's make patients come back many times?" Have you even stepped foot inside the typical PT clinic? Talk about extensive, redundant, wasteful visits! You're just a student, and have practically no knowledge of clinical reality. Check back in 5 years when you get some experience under your belt.
rtldc02 2 years ago
I have experience and he/she is correct. I work in therapy and I see patients who get well and move on with their lives. They don't come back every month for an "adjustment". If you have to keep coming back, how is that fixing anything????
MsMisha81 2 years ago
Agreed. I see patients who also see chiropractors. They always say, I love my chiropractor, I've been seeing him 5 years...
bisesik 2 years ago
Redundant, wasteful visits? PT's use manual therapy and progression of an exercise program to transition to self management of symptoms. Chiro's do set up patients for long term repeat visits. That would be why most continuing education for chiro's is practice building and marketing that largely emphasizes selling the patient on continuing with treatment even when asymptomatic.
bisesik 2 years ago
Manual therapy is teached in many university's master degree after the bachelor in physical therapy. A physical therapy may also learn it in many private courses that takes name from their developer: Maitland, Mulligan, Kalterborn ecc... Of course a PT may study ostheopathy as a second bachelor degree. I have to say that in italy ostheopathy is not teached in university nor chiropractice because of the lack of evidences (EBM, evidence based medicine).
ciuck 2 years ago
As a Doctor of Chiropractic, I can assure you that chiropractors do more than adjust/manupulation of the spine. For the past 13 years I have helped patient with progressive exercise to stabilize thier joints, I've helped patients regain balance and posture with neuromuscluar re-education, and diagnosed serious life-threatening conditions which were missed by Primary care providers and specialist. That's alot more than finding and fixing subluxations.
drseledge 2 years ago
So basically you've started doing what PT's have done for decades. That is an obvious trend in chiropractic I've seen lately. Lots of signs now say ___ Chiropractic AND REHABILITATION. If subluxations and nerve flow were the answer, why the change?
bisesik 2 years ago
None of the techniques I've been taught or use come from PT (as far as I know). I do believe that sometimes a regional (adjustment) manipulation rather than a specific segment is beneficial especially in the thoracic region.
As far as Chiropractic and rehabilitation, I don't think it is a new concept. We were tested on rehab in chiropractic college and on our national boards. In fact if you look at photos of BJ Palmers Clinic at Palmer College in the 30's-40's he had a complete rehab facility.
drseledge 2 years ago
I never stated the subluxation and nerve flow were the answer. I believe chiropractic is important in helping normalized neurological function but certainly isn't the only modality that will help. I do alot of NCV/EMG testing and VNG for vertigo and balance. When I find a problem out of my scope or needing co-care I refer to a Doctor of P.T. and we have a good working relationship.
drseledge 2 years ago
As a chiropractor, I would like to see more joint curricular activities with PT in order learn and progress from each others
docurehab 2 years ago 2
I am 23 years old and I'm in my 5th and final year of sports physiotherapy in Europe. After this year I would like to travel and maybe combine studying with working somewhere outside of europe.
If you should make the choice at the age of 23 with a degree in sports physiotherapy, would you chose to continue with
a) manual therapy
b) chiropractic scholing
or c) osteopathy
I don't really know what to expect from either one of them, osteopathy and manual therapy are taught in Belgium, chiro isn't
foreverguga 2 years ago
you have a wrong idea about those professions generally. Osteopathie was taught in Europe mostly as a technique not as profession (week-end seminar). Osteopathie in the States is a very structured profession with specialization full time hospital right, drug prescription right. Chiropractic is the same structured profession without drug prescription and less hospital right. Manual therapy is taught to some physical therapist the same as it was in France/Belgium in Week-end seminar;
docurehab 2 years ago
This could be a beneficial relationship however many chiropractors do this but deem the PT as the "exercise person." Most PT's are very well skilled with manual therapy and would expect to utilize this skill set.
bisesik 2 years ago
Spoken like a true "guru" that thinks a technique applied to the spine is a cure and is needed over and over again.
Do your research and realize that most of the quality studies that have been done on manipulation were done by PTs - Flynn, Childs, Fritz, Whitman, etc.
Manipulation is standard curriculum in physical therapy school, yearlong manual therapy courses (not weekend courses as you inaccurately suggest), fellowships and residency. Again, you are inaccurate.
webrehab 2 years ago
I used this procedure with my wife who often experiences neck pain and it worked beautifully to loosen a persistent crick in her neck. It was well demonstrated and not abrupt so I didn't feel like I was in danger of hurting her which I sometimes worry about as I'm 190 lbs and she's 60 lbs lighter. Thank you.
tomjgray 2 years ago
Thanks Tom. I am glad you had good results with this. Just be aware that these procedures are best performed by a qualified professional.
BelmarPT 2 years ago
@tomjgray
Come on guys, where is your professionalism? We, and I include myself, an osteopath, are all health professionals. Regarding evidence, in fact there is little evidence in all disciplines, including medicine, physiotherapy, chiropractic, and and least of all osteopathy. A little bit of respect would go a long way in this discussion.
gratitudeful 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Both the analysis and manipulation are pretty crude and non-specific. A chiropractor is much better suited for this kind of procedure.
rtldc02 2 years ago
Thanks for your comment. We created this video for our blog as a demonstration for patients. Technical aspects were purposely left out in order to avoid confusion. I understand that as a chiropractor you are biased towards your profession but we've found that the evidence provided at the bottom of our post shows that physical therapists achieve great results with the procedures demonstrated. You can read the post at belmarpt[dot]com: Click on the Blog link & search for Thoracic Manipulation.
BelmarPT 2 years ago
I'd strongly disagree. Physical therapists not only are trained to manipulate patients but also can are trained to match the right treatment with the condition. Chiro - it's always manipulation and based on a false ideology that your spine is out of alignment.
webrehab 2 years ago
PT's will never be as proficient as chiros in spinal adjusting. PT's take elective and post-graduate courses (usually just a few hours) to learn manipulation, whereas chiros spend years training in a variety of specific techniques, unlike the slipshod procedure shown in the vid. And Chiropractic is not based on "spinal alignment," there is no such thing in a dynamic biological system. You also need a doctor's referral before you can treat, so a chiro is clearly the superior choice.
rtldc02 2 years ago
I'm a PT and agree and disagree. I think chiro's are more proficient with manips because you simply use them more often, but you are not better trained. I'm a certified manual therapist and trained extensively with Mulligan and Maitland techniques that are more specific that chiro manipulations. The problem is the utlilization of manips and a panacea for everything by chiro's. PT's manip (when legally allowed) to restore joint motion, not cure the sniffles.
bisesik 2 years ago
I'm a PT as well working towards my manual therapy certification (coming from the the top manual PT school in the nation) and I agree that we are better trained and more specific than DC's with manipulations. Realize also that the philosophy of Chiropractic is based on bullshit. Some DC's are good people, some even know their anatomy and biomechanics, but my impression of them is just greedy, money-hungry people.
closetmonsterjesse 2 years ago
I agree. I have no beef with chiro's who treat musculoskeletal pathology - spine segment problems, discogenic pain, dural pain, nerve root impingement etc. But the subluxation and nerve flow theories I don't buy. Look up the website "chirotalk." It's a chiro blog most of whom came to the realization that they were duped in chiro school.
bisesik 2 years ago
Chiro isn't the better choice solely due to the rationale behind you're technique. Correcting a subluxation, realignment. I'm not sure why you state chiro isn't based on spinal alignment, that is the core of what chiropractic is founded upon.
bisesik 2 years ago
Physical therapists match the treatment to patients needs based on the current best evidence, not a one size fits all shake and bake chiropractic approach. That makes PT clearly the superior choice.
The subluxation "dogma" is the cornerstone of chiropractic and alive and well on your American Chiropractic Association website do a search for it.
webrehab 2 years ago 2
i agree with webrehab. while chiropractic education may consist of more extensive manipulative concentration, physical therapists are more rounded and can approach a patient's treatment from not only aspects of joint mobility but also dynamic stability (through progressive resistive exercises). ultimately think about it, when was the last time you entered a chiropractors office and saw patient's working on strengthening core stabilizers.
shyrDOM 2 years ago 2
imo manipulation is a portion of appropriate treatment, not the end all be all. in order to effectively treat, one must consider every aspect of function.
shyrDOM 2 years ago