XNA Roundup #18 Trino , Karnn Age , Halfbrick Echoes

[Roundy210]

my tech teacher beta tested Trino!

[matthewdoucette]

Spam is always a touchy subject. Someone flagged my previous post as spam. I wanted to clarify it was not meant as spam, and, since I was talking about the video content, it is not spam. Critical feedback on the ad format will help us and the XNA Roundup show. If there's something that could have been done better, let us know. We were the guinea pigs, and we're just looking for feedback, not trying to plug our game in a video that already plugs our game. Apologies to anyone who was offended!

[arrogancy]

Karnn Age can't be 200 points; it's to big of a game (games over 50 megs can't be 200). We ran into the problem with Angry Barry as well, where we wanted to make it 200, but couldn't. I don't think it's entirely fair to mention price in a semi-negative format when it's out of a devs control. Other than that, great episode, I love halfbrick, but the reviews have convinced me to check out the other two games.

[matthewdoucette]

@arrogancy: good point, but ultimately the gamer doesn't care. it happened with us, too. what would have been duality 1 was over 50MB so we had to jump to a 400 points. but in doing so, we had to extend the game, to what was planned to be duality 2, to make it worth the 400 points. it's not completely out of the developers control in that sense, but i do understand your point: no matter what, these games can never sell for 200 points. (and maybe in 6 months time we would want that price.)

[arrogancy]

I think it would only be fair to get the word out that everyone can't price their games at 200 points. If a reviewer said "I would have liked a 200 price point this, but the developer put too much content in it to reach that price point" it would actually have a positive affect on the consumer as opposed to just saying "I wish it was 200," which has a negative effect. It would help to get the word out about how it works for us.

[matthewdoucette]

You are right, it would certainly help if the gamers knew.

[nicktheduderino]

At some point Karnn age's developer made a decision to either accept that his game would go over the 50 mb threshold or rework the game so that it would go under. I don't accept your premise that the price is out of the dev's control. In OUR publishing workflow, Roundup videos have to be under 100 mb, this episode would have been over that limit if I didn't adjust my compression settings, yes this is over simplifying the matter but content creators must formulate their product 2 meet guidelines.

[arrogancy]

Well, you aren't going to fit anything much beyond a casual game under 50 megs unless you make everything low resolution/lack music/or take huge cuts that this generation doesn't expect in their games. I just want to make sure people realize what we're working with here - if they want 200 point games, then they want smaller, casual games, or games without the graphical and sound quality they're used to. 50 megs is fine for a puzzler or a Geo Wars type game, but once you get into other genres...

[nrXic]

I understand your point, but I do agree that Karnage could have probably been tweaked to fit under the limit with minimal sacrifices. There are so many tried and tested techniques out there, esp for 2D games. I'd have to agree also with the review, sometimes 200pt games of this quality are insta-buys, and so I think sometimes the effort is worth it. Then again, you'd have to sell twice the # of games to make the same revenue...

[TheBilly]

See, now you're just going into the realm of Unwarranted Self-Importance, writing off everything besides your little Smash TV clone as "just a casual game". 50MB is a lot more than it looks like. (2D) XBLCG games so far aren't so amazingly rich with content that they can't fit under 50MB. Yes, CD quality music is 1MB per minute and 2D HD graphics require somewhat large files for each image, but it's still a gross exaggeration to say that everything in that size range is just a little casual game

[arrogancy]

I made a little Smash TV clone? Hahah, when did this happen?

[matthewdoucette]

I've been made aware that Karnage looks like a copy of Smash TV (which I have never seen nor played). TheBilly was assuming you were the developer of Karnage... which is not the case! ;)

[JDoucette]

Duality ZF's compressed music is over 50 MB. The background graphics are too. In-game characters cannot use full compression (it ruins the alpha). Some 2D games cannot fit in 50 MB. A much smaller version of Duality ZF (1 of the 6 game modes) would fit. The entire game? Not unless you want pixelated crap with 8-bit sound. It's the dev's choice. The gamer doesn't care, just as they don't care about XNA's optimization issues (which needs lots of work to resolve to get the intense action you see).

[matthewdoucette]

Ultimately, the gamer doesn't care. It's cool to throw out the facts in these podcasts (I think). But that just makes the podcast cooler, and doesn't change the bottom line.

[Karnndmin]

I'm the developper of Karnn Age and i have to agree with Nick on the pricing. The reason it was priced 400 msPoints was because i was mostly targetting the hardcore players, and there's tons of replay value in the difficulty levels for those who put the time to learn the ropes.

Problem is that few people are interested in digging that deep into the game at this price/content amount. We`re currently working on a 200msPoints version that will have only 6 songs and no sun intro to get to 50mb.

[Karnndmin]

I meant only 3 songs, not 6.

If you`ve played the full game, you can suggest me your 3 favorite ones. I`m currently considering having Classic Fish song for all classic levels, Atomic Spider song for all atomic levels, and Train boss song for all bosses.

[TheBilly]

I'm an skilled programmer and I am aware of the XNA policies, including pricing. It doesn't change a thing. I'm not gonna give you more money just because your game is a certain filesize. It all depends on whether your game is worth the price. It has nothing to do with whether I understand the constraints you're under. The fact is that the consumer evaluates your game in this manner, and on the contrary it would be unfair NOT to raise this point. If it bothers you that much, pare it down

[arrogancy]

Well, Mr, Skilled programmer, consumers have been complaining that more XNA games have not been like Braid, Castle Crashers, or Dishwasher, and at the same time, want those games to be 200 points when people make them, which might not happen if reviewers mentioned that pricing is determined by the assets you put in the game. Which was my point, that point needs to be stated because there is a general ignorance about it.

[SabreXT]

Aren't Braid, CC and Dishwasher to big to fit on XNA/community games at all?

[BlackSpiderWolf]

Halfbrick Echoes looks like a'lot of fun..Somthing new and interesting.

Great show nick.

[nicktheduderino]

Thanks!

[codeg1234]

It's the attention to detail that make your videos great. Video quality and editing are always top notch.

The spinning controller was a really nice touch :-)

[nicktheduderino]

Thanks codeg, appreciate that, makes all the hard work worthwhile when someone sees the stuff your doing and the value you're trying to add.

Thanks so much for your feedback!

--nick

[phdfour]

Nice reviews. I like this format better than the bite sized reviews for sure.

[nicktheduderino]

Cool, glad it worked for you, my new approach is just give each game the space it needs, seems like that is what everyone wants anyway.

Thanks for watching!

--nick

[CAl3vara]

Are you planning on reviewing Clover soon? Seems to be a lot of fun.

[nicktheduderino]

It's on my "pile of shame," might be in next week's episode. Have you played it past the trial?

[jigsawhc]

Trino and Halfbrick Echoes are both a lot of fun. I've not had a chance to try Karnn Age yet, but I'll check it out.

[nicktheduderino]

Def. worth a look. thanks for watching jigsawhc!

[matthewdoucette]

three great xblcg games...

[nicktheduderino]

totally

[matthewdoucette]

Trino looks great. This just motivated me to try it out.

[TledgEs]

Great episode man, i agree it was a long one but thats what made it awesome.

Very happy to see you liked trino and Karrnage i played both and was suprised at how fun karrnage was, and bolown away by trino. Sucks i only got 40 msp

[nicktheduderino]

Cool! That does suck, bad time to be without spacebucks, lot of good stuff dropping all of a sudden. Thanks for the comment!

[TledgEs]

There certainly is ALOT of stuff dropping on community games, i believe in a recent week 14 games came out and since then id say over 20, trino is definatly a standout on community games for me now, along with Zp2k9

The other stuff... well theres definatley been a burst in 3D and a wider assortment of games,

that one 3d shooter was decent,

i wish the creator made a quake game for the CG that wouldve been duhBallz,

he had the engine for it, but damnit all if he didnt find bugs more interesting

[richardhutnik]

Trino looks like it is in the family that Quantum is in. Talking retro arcade here.

[nicktheduderino]

Found a wiki on quantum, but no video, the screen shot looks similar, was it fun? Nice catch!

[richardhutnik]

Quantum was controlled by trackball and always left a trail behind. People would find it frustrating actually. There is a running gag among retro coin-op collectors about it. It is very rare, but stands out unique. I would say Trino likely refines the concept further. Another game that uses the lasso for capturing concept is Nights on the Saturn (and likely Wii).

[nicktheduderino]

Awesome, thanks again for all the info Richard.

[richardhutnik]

Welcome. Here to help :-). I am at a wall trying to get through the excess of games I have (like Raiden Fighters Aces, and waiting on Duality), so I have to pass on Trino. If a game grabs me the way "Miner: Dig Deep" did (I found your reviews looking for info on it, BTW) then I will look into getting that. Trino is good though.

[dnop]

nice nice episode. long XD

[nicktheduderino]

Thanks dnop, got too keeps my peoples happy.