William Lane Craig vs Theodore Drange (HQ) 5/11

[REDRAGON12345]

Its always interesting to see how little atheist know about orthodox Christianity or even the Bible itself.

[aschaevitz]

@3superdogs @Saibomb

rebuttal

1. it is assumed that god is all loving of the life he created. loving beings prevent evil if it is their power. god is all powerful. therefore, he would have prevented evil, if he existed.

2. If god is all powerful, he could have done whatever he wanted. therefore, he could have given the idea to all humans that he existed.

3. you say it is impossible to have a timeless universe, yet a god can be timeless and defy that infinity is nonexistent. wut?

[MrLittleOrno]

Maybe God can't make you love Him but He can send you to Hell if you don't. Would you want God as a role-model for your children?

[AgeOfReasonXXI]

"Certainly there's NO 'BEFORE' prior to the beginning of time, that would be SELF-CONTRADICTORY, but the Universe does come into existence in the sense that it comes to exist at t=0, and it did not exist BEFORE that!"

Billy LAME Craig, you can't even utter a single sentence without contradicting yourself, can you? what a fucking moron.

[setmedic]

From whom is god supposedly saving us from? Himself? The idea that god would through such pain staking effort and billions of years of evolution just to put us on this planet to test us is ridiculous. And the idea that unless we believe the most absurd bullshit, we won't be saved. Please......

[6thwing]

@setmedic No, silly, he's saving us from ourselves. And the "pain staking effort and billions of years" argument you have is invalid. God is both Timeless and Omnipotent. Time is irrelevent to God -- it means nothing. Billions of years and fractions of nanoseconds are one in the same to him, nothing. God is all-powerful. Pain-staking effort means nothing to Him. Picking up a sheet of paper and crafting the Universe are one in the same to him.

The problem that exists is because of Volition.

[AgeOfReasonXXI]

@6thwing "No, silly, he's saving us from ourselves"

I guess if a person is psychopath or a sociopath that argument would make sense. But I'm not one, so I don't need to be "saved from myself". If you need to be saved from yourself, fine, just don't be so presumptuous as to think that everyone is like you. Those who are healthy don't need a doctor, you know, only those who are sick. I don't need your doctor, nor his message/cure. save it for yourself, Christian

[wachnathan]

Ya atheists have the burden of proof? lol William i would like to know how you think you know what a deity would want or do you seem to put words in the mouth of your god which indicates to me that your being is made up because you theists always assume to know what this being thinks. The bible tells you that god has two personallities from the old and new testament so which one is it a good god or a jealous indicative god sence theists seem to know.

[AgeOfReasonXXI]

Craig just can't stop spewing fallacies and contradicting himself: "certainly there was no BEFORE prior to the beginning of time--that would be SELF-CONTRADICTORY, but the Universe does come into existence in the sense that it comes to exist at t=0, and did not exist BEFORE that!"

Craig is either a total idiot or the most unprincipled theologian out there.

[JKwingsfan]

@AgeOfReasonXXI Actually, Craig is a well-respected philosopher of time; it's one of his areas of expertise.

[AgeOfReasonXXI]

@JKwingsfan so? it doesn't follow that in making his case for God as a first cause he's not constanly contradicting himself (see my previous post) or speaking just plain nonsense: like God having a freely chosen timeless determination(!!) to create the Universe.

it's hard to know whether he's just a moron or a profoundly dishonest and unprincipled person, i.e. full of shit. my guess is the latter. another liar for Jesus

[AgeOfReasonXXI]

it's just sad that a person can be so mentally and morally handicapped as to think that God's purpose for humans, if he existed, would be to believe in him and be saved! so actions are irrelevant! the test is: can you believe in Him based on zero evidence! and your credulity will be rewared! evil and suffering are alright as long as they fulfill that end. Craig is a good example of how monotheism can rot the human brain and waste one's whole life with delusions. wishful thinking at it's worst

[HonestTechnoAtheist]

Craig fails trying to refute the argument from evil because evil and suffering can just as much let people know that he does not exist.

[ohconservativeme]

@HonestTechnoAtheist

your argument goes in circles. going with your logic, you know that God doesnt exist because he lets suffering happen and he lets sufffering happen because he doesnt exist and doesnt exist because he lets suffering happen...

[HonestTechnoAtheist]

@ohconservativeme I know nothing more circular then theistic logic. The fact is that a loving god would try and reduce or fully stop suffering. Not to stop free will of course, but t take care of the side effects of suffering. A circular argument from theists goes like this: we exist because god made us and god made us so we exist.

[ohconservativeme]

@HonestTechnoAtheist

"I know nothing more circular then theistic logic.", "A circular argument from theists goes like this: we exist because..."1)I nor Mr. Craig said that. 2) so you don't deny that your argument was circular, you just told me what circular logic is, and you had to make one up. "The fact is..."-oh, you know something about God that I don't? "...god would try and reduce or fully stop suffering... Not to stop free will. That entire sentence is a paradox.

[HonestTechnoAtheist]

@ohconservativeme I never said that you or Craig said that, but other theists have. Reducing suffering would in no way affect free will. For example to solve the problem of starving people everywhere, all he has to do is magically create food for them. Same with people who lose loved ones. Just ressurect them. If you want to say that that would take away free will please consider that he already did those things in scripture. Didn't it take away free will then? He even appeared to people.

[wachnathan]

Well the human senses favors the atheists thats better then what Dr. Craig lays out if we can't see it or feel it or sense it then there you go the atheist wins. This debate is about proving that god is real not giving good reasons to think there is one which in my mind Dr. Craig still fails at because he can't define what he is trying to prove anyways. Think about it Dr. Craig didn't prove a god he just gives reasons to think there is something behind it all but thats not what this is about.

[drumrnva]

So...something is "not feasible" for God?

[justin10292000]

@drumrnva No, what Dr. Craig means is that God is not engaging in a violation of the Law of Noncontradiction.  MAKING someone FREELY choose something is like a square circle: it does not exist.

[drumrnva]

@justin10292000 Well, does it not follow that if one is truly free, then that freedom can't have been granted or given by anyone/anything? Freedom IS. The only way that freedom cannot be is if it is taken. If freedom is said to be "given", then it isn't really freedom. Saying one is free is not a declaration of some change in one's state. It's an affirmation of what is.

[justin10292000]

@drumrnva Freedom is of many types. Finite, human freedom is always given. No human is *truly free* in the ultimate sense. E.g., when your child gets to be a certain age, you GIVE him or her freedom to do certain things. Only the Creator, God, has freedom in the absolute, non-given sense. God is I AM, the noncontingent Being who possesses ultimate Being and thus necessarily noncontingent Freedom. Humans are contingent creatures, and hence humanlevel freedom is always contingent.

[drumrnva]

@justin10292000 Well, in truth the child always has the ability and the will to do whatever he/she wants. Hopefully the adults will teach the child perspective and understanding of the consequences of acts of will, but unless you bind and gag a child they are essentially free. As I said before, freedom IS, unless it's taken away. "Humans are contingent creatures"? What does that mean? Contingent on what?

[justin10292000]

@drumrnva No, a child is NOT absolutely free to do whatever he/wants. If not limited by parents, the child is limited by something else, always: society, conscience, laws, brute force of others, etc etc. Humans are contingent creatures because first we are contingent on God for our very existence and continuing existence, and we are dependent on others for our earthly life, our upbringing, our values. So *freedom IS* in the absolute sense is applicable only to God, the noncontingent Being.

[drumrnva]

@justin10292000 I'm sorry- I know I'm not going to change any minds. I just cannot see where the supernatural is necessary. In a way I agree with Craig in his other clips when he says that existence has no objective meaning without god. Except that I fall to the side that says "That's right. Life is without meaning UNLESS we ascribe meaning to it." It's up to you and me to make it matter. The rest of the universe won't notice our puny little 70 years(if we're lucky) one way or the other.

[justin10292000]

@drumrnva Thank you for you thoughtful, calm, considerate answer. What you are espousing is existentialism, as I know you are aware. Have a great day! :)

[CecilTheSeaMonster]

@justin10292000 So sad to see u revert to your old ways so shortly after u said: "You are right, and I have been praying a lot about this lately…. I am going through a lot right now and my stress and frustration seem to be coming out in this way. I am sorry and it is probably better if I just stop commenting for a while." Shame on you. What example are u setting for your son Jason? Your comments will forever be on the internet for him to see when he’s older.

[justin10292000]

@CecilTheSeaMonster yawn.

[theonlyway2truth]

Dr.Craig was truly blessed by our lord Jesus Christ...

[jdquarg]

It's to make the assumption that we are sinners and salvation is only threw Christ. It excludes the Romans had built various land and sea networks. In addition to the extended use of Greek in the intellectual circles and improved writing materials help to carry the Gospel message. Personal salvation is based upon spreading of the message which is the incentive. Judaism is based on the mother so growth is hindered. Judaism then did not seek or want converts.

[Saibomb]

craig owns

[3superdogs]

very well put by Craig