Robert Rector on the Cost of Low-Skill Immigrants

[wheelinthesky300]

You folks realize that the illegals coming from Mexico are not engineers, scientists, or tech workers.

They are in fact Indian peasants,

many of whom are illiterate, most of whom have no education.

It makes NO SENSE for the USA to import and Amnesty 20 million destitute peasants, who often produce like 6 or muchachos per family, and the burden on the U.S. taxpayer is ENORMOUS.

[1217jesss]

@wheelinthesky300 Imigrants PRODUCE. They are found where the most production is needed in the country. Well fare is for the lazy Americans that refuse to produce and that is why there is a demand for immigrants in America. you know whats the biggest burden to tax payers though? its our government which taxes the hell out of you to cover the lost bets in wall street. The white shoe boy thugz in Wall street will rob the payers in the trillions while an exploited indian boy picks your crops .

[1217jesss]

@wheelinthesky300 by the way indians are from india and mexican natives are native to this continent. key word 'NATIVE'

[Postpinkdude]

that rector guy is funny he had a tupay and a fake mustash on lol!

[1217jesss]

LOU DOBBS just loves spreading the disease of hatred and bigotry which infects only the narrow weak minded. He leads a disilusioned portion of america which is victime of a government which currently concedes to elite corporate criminals whose policies are to get richer and burden the rest of America with their greedy corrupt ideologies. The most convenient scape GOAT for their concieved turmult is the actuall presence that made them richer, The hard working immigrants in the country.

[derner22]

You are what Karl Marx used to call the "useful idiot" for the big capital. With your high-minded internationalism, you provide the moral excuse for the big business to get the cheapest labor from all over the globe and to push down the wages of the legal domestic labor, thus enriching themselves on their backs...

[wheelinthesky300]

@1217jesss Calling illegal immigrants "hard working" will not win them Amnesty.

The vast majority of Amercians want them deported.

They can work hard in their countries of origin when they get back there.

[CrazyGuyFromDaBay]

go back to russia LOL

[DEPORTALLILLEGALS]

Time to learn from Eisenhower. He did it then and we can do it today.

[DackBev]

What's wrong with driving down wages in certain fields by illegal immigration? If the immigrants are the ones filling those jobs what does it matter? It just means that the Americans will transfer to higher paying jobs.

[pcjunkie48]

Transfer to what high paying jobs you twit;;;those jobs already went to India

[scientastic]

A lot of Americans don't have the education to transfer to higher paying jobs, for various reasons. It would be ideal if they could, but if they could, why wouldn't they regardless of whether illegal immigrants come to take their place?

The reality is that low-skill Americans' wages have been going DOWN because they have to compete with so many immigrants.

[DackBev]

Then that's an incentive for those Americans to increase their skills. Basically what you're arguing for is mediocrity. I think it's good that people are put where they have to compete to increase their incomes. This is what advances technology and betters civilization.

[scientastic]

No one is arguing for mediocrity. You are arguing from an academic point of view which is totally detached from reality. Look around you. Or maybe, don't, because you probably live in a nice neighborhood where you don't see the poverty and problems of the lower and lower-middle class. The reality on the ground is that it is hard for people to get ahead (get an education, etc.) when their wages are not even enough to support their family.

[DackBev]

The more that wages can be driven down by competition in labor, the more profit businesses can make. That's good the economy. With higher profits, there is more investment, and more job creation. No problem. Don't fear competition.

[scientastic]

What you really mean is, exploiting workers is good for business. Good for business = good for the economy. Good for the economy = good for everyone including the workers that are being exploited. Riiiight.

[DackBev]

scientastic, you're not thinking through the rest of the economics. The more jobs that are created, the higher that wages have to be bidded up in order attract people to those jobs. There is a balance between supply and demand, which sets the price of labor, that there is no need to interfere with.

[scientastic]

Don't insult my intelligence. I know about economics. It is the illegals which are interfering with our domestic labor market. The "interference" /you/ are talking about... is called ENFORCING THE LAW.

[DackBev]

scientastic, whether the law is enforced or not, it has the same effect. Legal immigrants increase the supply of labor which lowers the price of labor. Make up your mind. Is your argument based on economics or law?

[scientastic]

Both. First of all, law is the basis for a sound and fair economy. Second, as a historical fact, in the mid 1900's we had low immigration. During that time, the labor shortage forced investment into techniques that boosted productivity. A cheap labor supply would have preempted much of the productivity gains we saw during that time.

[DackBev]

scientastic, that make no economic sense. Productivity gains are the result of increased profits which allow development of new technologies. Do you even understand what "productivity gains" mean? It means an increase in output per labor hour. It mean less labor can produce more than what more labor could produce yesterday.

[DackBev]

And those jobs which pay the lowest are those in decreasing demand, which will eventually be eliminated entirely. Technology cannot progress unless you allow wages in jobs to sink to zero, which frees up resources to apply to other industries and fill new kinds of jobs. And the faster that technology progresses the more productive each our of labor becomes, due to technological innovations, and therefore the less work it takes to survive.

[scientastic]

What naivete. Jobs that pay the lowest will not necessarily be eliminated entirely. In fact, they may be prevented from elimination by the availability of cheap labor! Think through your own stupid economics!  "Allow wages to sink to zero..." that never happens. Often, high wages push technology far more than low wages do, in several ways. Go educate yourself.

[DackBev]

It's not true that wages in some jobs don't sink to zero as technology progress. In other words, certain jobs don't exist anymore. There is no one willing to pay for anyone to do them because there's no need for them.

[scientastic]

And how exactly does that have anything to do with immigration? Are you arguing that the jobs immigrants do should be eliminated? Get your arguments straight.

[DackBev]

scientastic, no, i'm not arguing the legal or illegal immigration should be prohibited. I'm arguing that competition in labor is good.

[DackBev]

scientastic, I left a word out of my message. I meant It's not true that wages in some jobs DO sink to zero as technology progress. In other words, certain jobs don't exist anymore. There is no one willing to pay for anyone to do them because there's no need for them. It's called the process of creative destruction.

[scientastic]

Certainly such a process exists. Things become obsolete as progress is made. What exactly does this have to do with immigration, again? The supply of cheap labor sometimes slows this creative process, in fact!

[DackBev]

scientastic, what creative destruction has to do with cheap labor is it allows greater business profits, which enable business expansion into other areas that consumers demand. The more expensive labor is, the less economic expansion. Cheaper input = greater output.

[scientastic]

You're blathering econ 101. What about externalities? What about how illegal labor is basically subsidized by the American people whose jobs are being displaced by it? Look around, you are not seeing the magnitude of the disaster that is illegal immigration. It is exploitation, it is subsidized UNFAIR competition to the American worker.

[DackBev]

scientastic, "unfair competition" is an oxymoron. Protectionism is the only thing that could be construed as "unfair." So what if Americans lose their jobs to immigrants? If they are wealthy enough to afford to turn down a job because the pay is too low, what's the problem?

[scientastic]

Saying "unfair competition" is an oxymoron is idiotic. When legal workers have to pay more taxes, and employers have to pay taxes and healthcare on their behalf, while illegals do not and get $3 in services for every $1 they pay in taxes, if that's not unfair competition, then let me race you with a ball and chain around your foot.

[scientastic]

HA. "Wealthy enough to turn down a job." You clearly live in some kind of elite bubble isolated from the problems in our poorer neighborhoods. Unless you want American workers to live in the third-world conditions that illegals put up with, you should be ashamed of uttering such words.

[DackBev]

scientastic, There is no reason to think that immigration-caused competition in labor doesn't cause American workers to live in third-world conditions. It raises the standard of living. It makes living less pricey, due to higher business profits, which lead to technological innovation.

[scientastic]

Low wages do make certain products and services cheaper, raising quality of life... FOR THOSE THAT CAN AFFORD THEM. For those who cannot, USUALLY THE ONES PROVIDING THEM, their quality of life deteriorates. You end up with a widening gap between rich and poor, as we are seeing today. The middle class is getting squeezed out.

[DackBev]

scientastic, nonsense. No matter how low the wages are that someone gets, that's better than no wages at all and not having a job. Anyone who accepts lower wages than the next guy is doing so because he has more to gain by accepting lower wages. In other words, he's poorer so is in more need of the money.

[scientastic]

So, bringing it back to immigration... if we have no immigrants, are you implying we would have no jobs? What you seem to be arguing for is completely open borders. If we let everyone come here that wanted to, the only jobs will be A) ones that require high skills, and pay well to those few that have them, or B) jobs that do not require high skills, which pay third-world-level wages. You will have an upper skilled class like an aristocracy, and a lower servant class. It is already happening.

[DackBev]

scientastic, how many times do i have to tell you I'm against open borders? I'm simply pointing out that opposition to open borders based on the fact that it will introduce more competition in labor is not an economically-sound reason. That would be good for the economy. I oppose open borders for reasons that don't have anything to do with economics.

[scientastic]

OK, fine I get it, sorry, you are against open borders. Every argument you raise seems to be in favor of them.

[DackBev]

scientastic, now you're just asserting consequences without any kind of reasoning. By what economic chain of reasoning would allowing anyone to come into the U.S causes the scenario you claim? Also, should your state close its borders to immigrant from other U.S. states for economic reasons?

[scientastic]

This is what is astounding about you open-border advocates. You equate national borders with state borders, and make legality and illegality the same. I am a believer in a laissez-faire approach to the economy, but I also believe that economics is not the only concern we should be looking at in terms of our immigration policy.

[scientastic]

If I have to state the obvious, fine. It should be obvious that an oversupply of workers in the low-skill labor market will cause wages to go down. When a large segment of the population lacking the skills to move into the next higher bracket gets their wages depressed like this, it only makes it harder for them to live a middle class life, much less get the education to get there.

[scientastic]

Also I am not against allowing immigrants in at all. First, they should be legal, and second, they should be let in on a merit-based system, vs. a system based on extended family relations. Finally, economically speaking, their numbers should be low enough that they do not depress the wages of a significant portion of the American workforce.

[DackBev]

Depressing wages is good when it's caused by competition among laborers. It causes businesses to be more profitable. This causes more investment, leading to new technologies, which creates jobs in different industries while jobs in the old industries fade out. It simply speeds up the process of creative destruction and makes each labor hour more productive. We all benefit from the rise in the standard of living.

[scientastic]

Tell the low-wage workers that we are all benefiting from the rise in the standard of living.

[scientastic]

You are wrong to say that depressing wages "makes each labor hour more productive." It is in fact the exact opposite. When labor is cheap, there is no incentive to invest in raising productivity. When labor is short, there is more incentive to invest capital in improving productivity.

[DackBev]

scientastic, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that the result of technological progress is increasing productivity. That is, each labor hour produces more. One hour of labor buys more today than it did, say 100 years ago. The faster the turnover of creative destruction, the faster this happens, and it losers the labor cost of living for everyone.

[scientastic]

You are right in saying technological progress increases productivity. LOWER WAGES DOES NOT NECESSARILY DO THE SAME THING! Don't confuse the two. In fact, lower wages often discourages technological progress, because it is cheaper just to hire more bodies than to invest in new technology!  This is the key part you are missing!!!

[DackBev]

scientastic, no, because if everyone has access to cheap labor then everyone has that same advantage. In order to compete for customers, and therefore increase profits, they have to find other ways to cut costs.

[scientastic]

If those who are being paid cheaply have access to cheap labor, they are NOT better off than if they were paid better but had to pay a little extra for some of the services which they may use. I am beginning to think you are trolling me.

[scientastic]

In a closed domestic market, such as we find in many service jobs filled by low-wage workers, you cannot export the work.  If you have the same market conditions (i.e. higher wages) for everyone in a particular industry, they will compete evenly on other things. It is when some are paying less (under the table, and illegally) that those who pay legally start clamoring for cheaper legal labor to compete with those who unfairly exploit illegals.

[scientastic]

So in other words, you say "if everyone has access to cheap labor then everyone has that same advantage."  In the same way, if everyone has to pay the same legal, higher wage, the competition is fair and no particular entity has an advantage. The presence and exploitation of illegals is what gives some a competitive advantage AT THE EXPENSE OF THOSE HIRING LEGALLY. And at the expense of legal, just wages.

[DackBev]

I don't know what you mean by "exploiting illegals." If you pay someone for doing a job, you're not exploitating, regardless of what the wage is. They're better off being paid than not being paid at all, therefore they're not being exploited.

[scientastic]

They are being exploited because they are being paid less than they should be if they were legal, and their illegality is being taken advantage of to create an unfair market advantage.

[DackBev]

scientastic, they're being paid "less than they should be if they were legal"? You mean because of minimum wage laws? Minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They just make the economy less efficient and keep the most unskilled people from getting a job.

[scientastic]

Let's take your idea to its logical extreme. Let's import as many low-skilled workers as will come. Due to market forces, they will keep coming until there are so many of them that they depress the wages almost to the level of their home countries. At that point, the incentive for them to come stops. But at those wages, we will have entire neighborhoods of people living at third-world standards, in our cities. And we will be very crowded.

[DackBev]

You're to the "extreme" argument is not an economic one, so I'm not interested in it.

[scientastic]

It shows the societal effect of pursuing an economics-only approach.

[scientastic]

Also, it shows that economically, your argument is wrong because you say everyone will be better off. In fact, that is false. Those who were already here, working in low-wage jobs, are now forced into a third-world existence through no choice of their own.

[DackBev]

scientastic, no they wouldnt be "forced into a third-world existence." They would move on to other jobs which would be created due through investement of the increased business profits.

[scientastic]

Explain how they can do this, if 1) business profits are squeezed by the competition from everyone else who uses cheap labor, and 2) those making cheap wages do not have the resources to train for other jobs?

[DackBev]

scientastic, your statement "business profits are squeezed by the competition from everyone else who uses cheap labor" doesn't make sense. If a company's labor costs are reduced then its profits are automatically increased. It is able to sell their goods at the same price with for less cost. That means more profit.

[DackBev]

scientastic, even if you assumed that they did not have the resources to train for other jobs, then they would simply move to new jobs that don't require high skills. Note that population keeps increasing yet job creation always keeps pace with population in the long term. The same thing happens whether it's increased population from births or immigration.

[DackBev]

In other words, though it lowers nominal wages, it raises real wages. That is, though you are paid less units of payment, each unit of payment will buy more tommorow than it did previously.

[scientastic]

Yes, "a rising tide floats all boats." Which is true. But there are several ways to make the "tide" rise. The wrong way is by sinking a few ships (lower the wages of some certain people, making everyone else's real wage increase come at their expense). The right way is to increase productivity through technology.

[scientastic]

Just today you said you were not advocating illegal immigration. What about your words, "What's wrong with driving down wages... by illegal immigration?" Illegals are subsidized by the American taxpayer, as businesses don't pay their taxes or health care costs, etc. This is not fair competition. Legal immigration is a totally different issue.

[DackBev]

scientastic, I'm not advocating illegal OR legal immigration. I'm advocating immigration in general. I'm arguing that competition in labor from immigration is good.

[scientastic]

Problem 1: You don't make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration. Problem 2: You want open borders, which is a recipe for ethnic disaster. We need time to assimilate those already here before too many more come. If we don't assimilate them, we will go the way of the Balkans, or Quebec in Canada.

[DackBev]

scientastic, I never said I wanted open borders. I want controlled immigration, otherwise there would be more people than jobs and you would shanty towns. What I have a problem with is being opposed to immigration because it lowers wages. The economic reasoning for that is bad.

[scientastic]

Illegal immigration is one issue. Legal immigration is another. Don't play down the difference. At least, join the vast majority of the American people in standing against illegal immigration.

[DackBev]

scientastic, I don't care whether the immigration is illegal or legal, as long as too many don't immigrate, because there would be too many jobs than people, and it would turn into a Brazil full of shanty towns. Illegal immigration is good as long as not too many get across the border.

[scientastic]

"Illegal immigration is good as long as not too many get across the border." 1. It's still illegal. 2. Too many ARE getting across the border! Have you toured some of the poorer areas of the country? We don't yet have shanty town conditions, but it's not far off!

[scientastic]

"I don't care whether the immigration is illegal or legal, as long as too many don't immigrate"... well, welcome to reality. You realize that it IS all about the NUMBERS. Go to NumbersUSA dot org slash Video and see why immigration has to be brought under control. Our system is broken, we don't have an intelligent immigration policy designed to benefit America, and although some immigration is good, too much is not.

[DackBev]

scientastic, I don't care about the legal issues. I'm arguing economics only. Competition in labor is good, not bad.

[scientastic]

Well, most of this debate is about legality. A separate debate can be had about the numbers of legal immigrants we should let in.  Competition is good... to a certain degree. Once it starts destroying a decent standard of living, it is no longer good. Seek the balance in everything. We are not machines made to produce at peak efficiency with no thought to our humanity.

[htownlithium]

Did anyone just see LD on 60min.? He is arrogant and narcassistic...his show is not always accurate yet he stands by his word regardless even when proven wrong. And he's now parading his mexamer wife ow that the he's got latin org. boycotting him. He contradicts himself 2much

[RaymondoEvans]

Attrition

Is the only way to deal with illegal immigrants, by going after the corporations or employers for hiring them and putting them out of business for hiring the illegal person here in the US? The company I work for got raided ten years ago but I see the ID's used and can tell that some that they hire are using forged ID's.