This Means War (5/6)

[felkajamine]

@dko9873 then you want a world without civilization.

[armarjaleo]

I will do whatever it takes to keep Monsanto from patenting genetically altered cannabis seeds!!!! No way are they contaminating my crop!!!

[SmileNow2]

@armarjaleo

The weed is stronger than their herbicide :)

[caseyforever]

@dko9873

dude, DUDE. there is room in between people who exaggerated global warming and it not existing. such bullshit. humans are effecting some intense global climate change... warming cooling contrasting etc... it's different in different places. we're fucking shit up. yes some stuff is happening on it's own but people running around finding comfort is saying "doesn't exist" or is "so not true" are REALLY doing more harm than they mean to.

[Tinfoilhatlady]

what a great series

[adduummyy]

But u r murdering with global pollutants. If the salmon die then kill 1000s of species that rely onthem including aboriginal americans. 1 human life is enuf but who cares when millions die, 1 starved baby or embryo is a drop in the bucket. Oh the trees turn gases into oxygen! How dum r we?

[zpunter]

He really has a hard on for salmon.

[stett99]

" i dont give a shit about writing books " made me smile

[SexyThyme]

I think whatever it takes is turning off this damned computer, and probably never turning it on again.

[stett99]

silence kid your a tool. start thinking

[spitfireatme]

I keep seeing a lot of negative comments on these Jensen videos. I gotta say, I love the guy, but I also struggle with the same questions myself - why don't I take bigger risks rather than just write about things, talk about it. We all have the brains, just not the brawn. I'm glad that he's talking about a lot of important stuff, but I would like to see more action - even small actions, although maybe he's doing that and I don't already know about it.

[fourplusseven]

He will only make matters worse with his rhetoric & holier-than-thou standpoint.

US imperialism is *already ending*. (Pick up a history book Derrick.)

4:14 -- answer: very little. A few more unabombers who don't understand how to make a difference. This is the cry from the heart of a man with no brains.

Don't let him impress you! Read Rob Hopkins and John Michael Greer -- learn about reality. What Jensen wants, he will not attain. He's an angry dreamer, not a man of wisdom.

[antiflagtuzo]

@fourplusseven and you believe your history book? why?

american imperialism is alive and well

[fourplusseven]

@antiflagtuzo Yes US Imperialism is alive for the moment, but it can't survive when the US can no longer pay for it. Give it a decade. Look at what is happening in Greece now -- that is the future for industrialism. As for history -- read Oswald Spengler. Ignore easy conspiracies; there are forces on this planet a lot bigger than human beings, and we're about to run into them in a big way. This is about reality, not Jensen's paranoid unabomber fantasies. Read the authors I mentioned. Read them!

[AbattoirDream]

@antiflagtuzo lol american imperialism isnt even american, its british.

dont you know your history?

[KrishnaConscious]

hope is also an idea of fate. if you think our fate is set, your wrong. we have the ability to make choices and take actions.

[lethalintention]

i would not murder to stop global warming but rather try to teach others and you cant do what ever to stop it because are government has bio weapons and they just can kill you and us to make it better for them! fuck you lol and from the looks of n.w.o your wish just may come true but to bad you wont be around to enjoy it

[terr547]

Hell yes!! We need to just do it!

[silencekid999]

I just realized that this guy is a giant douche.

[clone0001]

You said it, I didn't. ;)

[enlightenment4human]

Alot of people think that it's the environmentalists that are always the radical ones, but If two hundred species are going extinct a day, and the extinction has been increased a thousand times because of what we are doing to the planet...How come that isn't considered RADICAL?!!! People don't realize that it's not just about other species, it's about the fact that we ourselves will be in danger!

[upstart1776]

1:50 : " I don't advocate violence, but I don't advocate non-violence"

very cagey, Mr. Jensen, but why not advocate violence? If you consider yourself a revolutionary and you are committed to your cause, you should step over the line. The real revolutionaries in 1776 did, and they had nothing compared to the luxury of your mommie's farm you enjoy. You're a liar and you're a fraud....but that's what the radical religion of environmentalism really is.

[argusmoon]

Most of us do try end destruction of the landbase using our gifts, and it isn't enough. "Whatever it takes" to end the destruction means not using our gifts but doing more. Yet, we don't want to get killed while attempting to preserve our source. So we choose dying slowly by letting our source. It IS an endgame.

[Maskuerade]

"Homo sapiens lived sustainably for hundreds of thousands of years without civilization? Hunting and gathering? Hunting a bore with a sharp stick while the woman stays at the cave pregnant and sewing cloths to stay warm? You dont call that civilization?"

I agree there

[Maskuerade]

i'm not going against dereck here, but i just wanted to add how he mentions a quote from tomas jefferson about the fighting between his troops and american indians.. I don't think there were american indians here yet unless brought over as a slave.. but i'm pretty sure they were african americans that were 90% of the slaves.... so they weren't getting people from india. I think you meant american NATIVES/native americans/.

[dvurmin]

hey billy fuckhead...how old are you?

you fucking lame! kill yourself!

[billy56081]

I bet this faggot has silent farts. WHat a fucking retard. Has his balls been cut off? He has such a pussy voice. I hope he gets the AIDS.

[creten69]

we want to be entertained,educated,sexually fullfilled,to eat whatever we want,to sleep well,not to stress,to be healthy,to die in our sleep,peacefully.

[ndizindoto]

This dude is bi-polar.

[LostFREEDOM]

smart man

[nbm34]

What is the name of this marvelous young man.

I have never heard anything as profound and as well presented on the common need we all have to listen seriously to what he is telloing us.

Has he a tube site????

[back2nrml]

Wow Nbm34.

HA he a Tube Site?

lol WOW.

His name Is Derrick Mother fuckin Jensen. Go look at the info dip shit.

[welostone7]

he seems little overbord.

[chasingabee76]

you seem deaf, dumb and blind

[welostone7]

the real problem is when people use knowledge to be superior.

[Ackdacka]

i love salmon too!! when explorers discovered British Columbia there was so much salmon they could cross rivers on their backs.

[dankeroner]

please do something then man your a great writer but u need to lead a revolution

[sacredthornapple]

Lets be realistic, Peak Everything is coming. Lets take the advise of this sane man and save SOMETHING for our seventh generation.

[Schmoogee]

I want to shoot down some flying hamburgers. That's what I want.

[Schmoogee]

Eatpeople. Really. I mean that. It's eco-friendly and will help decrease the population. I know it sounds "wrong" or "bad" or just plain "evil" to some, but it's more humane than war and famine. It will eventually happen. It's just a matter of time.

[smkymcnugget420]

shut the fuck up, your an idiot!

[Christinecedar]

Thank you Derrick.

I am going to do what ever it takes.

[loftyflight]

COrrect ZZest. Control, anger & hype are like myths. Awareness is ok & others are making strides. Anger creates adrenaline some need it to exist. Books are o.k. but action speaks louder than worDs.

[nicolatwo]

But we still need democracy. Democracy and government are the only things, even faulty (because of bad humans), which keep corporate slavery under control. So let's not throw the kid with the bath tub away.

[iaeruo]

nicolatwo...

'democracy' is what we need, but we don't have deomcracy. we have a dictatorship of the elite.

'democracy' depends on 'the public,' and 'the public' is a modern invention. one can trace the creation of newspapers and leaflets creating 'the public' during the Enlightenment, straight into the hyper-technological era creating 'the consumer' during High Modernism.

Life in the simulacrum is Democracy equated with the freedom of consumer choice, and therefore a myth.

[zezt]

so i have been deeply interested in mythologies. the stories we tell, get told etc.

this is why the power elite spend so fukin much on continuous creation of myths

cut that off for one! cut their story off

[zezt]

love your honesty, and insight, it inspires thinking with freedom. I mean part of me would want to nuke these ecocidal genocidal maniac psychos totally out of existence. But then I wonder about the mindset. where did it come from. what would happen if i became like them who DO that now?

[donovonc]

Revolution baby!!

[olejor]

Most people don't care now - why should they care in the future? The only way imho is to make it too expensive to buy s*** you don't need! And that will never happen because most people are greedy. Make soyabeans, chocolate, coffee, bananas - not to mention lumber from the rainforest to expensive for anyone to buy and _then_ they will care.. not before I'm afraid

[olejor]

if not greedy - then attached - to all the things they don't really need..

[pennilesscripple]

so...

we can stop being so attached to the things we don't really need. one at a time. what other people do, we can't predict. we can do it in our own lives, though, and trust that our example will spread, just as they became attached to things they don't really need through collective agreements about 'need'. :)

[Cl3ver]

This isn't for the overthrow of the government. This is to prepare for the collapse of every government. Of the idea of money. Of the idea of everything civilization has become associated with(See Disease, Destruction, Genocide, Hatred, Corruption, Greed). All My Hero's killed Cowboys.

[blampow]

Well, I agree preparation is good, come what may re: apocalypse. I like technology though: if civ. has to collapse, it would be nice if it got to the point of supplying us all with self-replicating nanofactories, solar panels, broadband electricity, a flexible, bottom-up internet, etc, before it went. If it transitioned into something better instead of forcibly regressing to something, frankly, worse.

[Cl3ver]

We need people to see this, see that the crash will happen and it won't be sunshine lollipops and easy living. It will be back to the way man and woman should live. Not in fear of the earth, not in fear of each other, not in fear of the panopticon. You need to get ready.

[Cl3ver]

The problem is that people are so dependant on this culture of death that when it finally collapses then those whose lives were supported by civilization will end because of no self-sufficiency(which doesn't exist in civilization anyway).

[nicolatwo]

Derrick, I want exactly what you want. I find it important that we get the right people elected, too. Yes, every person has to contribute to helping the environment. Buy a Prius, or a solar car, use solar panels, buy alternative products that did not/do not harm others, be an activist, I don't believe in using violence, because violence gets us nowhere, violence just puts me in jail, I need to be here to help.

[blampow]

"Derrick, I want exactly what you want."

No, seriously, you really don't. Go read up on this guy: google him.

[nicolatwo]

For blampow: I did already in January. And I talked to Derrick. We want the same. He is just more courageous then me. And of course I don't use force.

[blampow]

Seriously? You want conscientious people in power in the US. He wants to overthrow civilisation.

Where's the overlap?

[nicolatwo]

We probably all want the same outcome. Maybe some people want a dictation. I don't know. But I absolutely want us people to build autark communities which are not feeding the corporate power structure. Some communities are already starting their own fruit and vegetable trading by growing their own food in their little yards and they share their food or trade it for other materials. Those are beginnings of independence. So is solar energy in self sufficient eco homes.

[Cl3ver]

Ok.

So, here's a better take on it. I myself do not believe that we can take civilization down... But we can all agree that civilization is going to crash on its own anyway. Well the radical idea is to recruit. To get people to understand this. When that crash comes there will be chaos, there will be more chaos, more destruction and more death then ever before.

[veganstanger]

nicolatwo, do you even realize how extraordinarily destructive those so-called "green" solutions you espouse are? There's no such thing as a consumer product that doesn't harm others. To echo blampow: no seriously, you really don't. Maybe read one of his books?

[nicolatwo]

Hello Rebecca, I like your channel. Thank you for supporting activism. But why would you possibly say that green solutions are destructive? Please explain. There are thousands of consumer products that are 100% safe for the environment, animals and people. There are safe corporations: Weleda, Whole Foods Market, Solar Living, Cooperations, just to name a few. It's those corporations that actually make all the difference in the world, more than laws and incentives. Because they offer solutions.

[blampow]

Nicolatwo:

Listen:

Carefully:

These people - pro Jensen - are *nothing like you*.  At all.

And you seem to know *nothing whatsoever* about Jensen or what he stands for. It's ridiculous. I'm sorry.

[blampow]

Nicolatwo: rereading my post, it seems rude, and I'm sorry about that. But ... you just don't seem to get how far out "anarchoprimitivism" is.

They're against the *division of labour*.

They're against the *importation of goods*.

They're *nothing at all like you*. At all, at all.

[nicolatwo]

For blampow: I have met Derrick one time at the library at his book signing event. He cares about the environment and animals, which is great. He also is involved with work to save wild life sanctuaries and forests. I like him a lot. I do not hate him. He may hate me though, or at least look down on me, just like you do, but that does not deter me to admire him. But, big but, I do not agree with all of what he is saying. Is that so wrong? Why can't we people be individual thinkers?

[nicolatwo]

For blampow part 2: Your statement that he or his followers are nothing like me is wrong. I am for the little person. I am fighting for justice and I am a very devoted activist for the environment, the animals, and those humans who are left out in our society. I am strongly for governmental minimum wage control with high wages for the workers. I am against WTO. I am even stronger for strengthening the local economy and I am mainly for living locally and self sustainably.

[nicolatwo]

Thank you Derrick. I admire your courage. I wish I could be more courageous.

[Cl3ver]

This is about making sure we have a home, and our children have a home and their children have a home and I'm not talking about the homes we live in now.

I am talking about a home where we don't have to worry about drinking water from a river.

This is about not paying this horribly violent and masochistic civilization to EXIST.

[blampow]

I'm aware Jensen's aims are more radical than I've made them out to be. I showed that even an understated version of them is ridiculous because attacking them in their monumental, full absurdity is almost impossible: to define them is to refute them, unless we stick with campaign slogans like you have.

[Cl3ver]

Oh and blam, wake up and listen. He is not saying this is only taking down America's government and their power. This is a global fight. This isn't about just America, this is about civilization as a whole.

This is a global fight.

This is about continuing the existence of human and non-human life.

[Cl3ver]

Blam, you're the definition of the scientific/marketing strategy of trying to sound professional to sell bull-shit. Civilization is NOT part of human life... Civilization is the destroyer of human life. Humans have been brain washed and bludgeoned into accepting and believing that civilization is the way to go.

[blampow]

Weeell ... thanks for calling me professional (I'm just a few years older than you, obviously not getting paid for this), but my point - though sadly well stated - stands: find me documented instances of people choosing non-civilisation over civilisation. You know what the number one most requested show on the Australian aboriginal people's TV network is? Seinfeld.

[pennilesscripple]

there were hundreds of cases of people leaving civilization to go live in native american tribal societies during the early years of the u.s. they wouldn't return to civilization even when their families pleaded with them. the only time native americans left tribes to live in civilization was when they were forced, and then they tried as hard as they could to get back home.

[blampow]

Good point, pc: and yet, native american tribal societies probably were more established than the early US: also, the people who made up the early US were rugged individualist types who took the risk of moving to the new world - not a random population sample, there was a filter there that recruited novelty seekers.

I'll grant your second point, but would point out that natives absolutely like the *products* of civilisation, i.e. cars/guns etc. See also: cargo cults.

[pennilesscripple]

yes they like the products of civilization, blampow, because they know nothing else. if they knew the benefits of living in true community, they'd trade in the false comforts of all of those products in a heartbeat. the only reason they reach for those products in the first place is because they are scared and lonely.

[blampow]

Well ... I don't think heating in winter, or cooked food, or dependable food supplies, are mutually exclusive to friendship/family, do you?

And I'm not following your "they know nothing else" line. The cargo cults, for instance, were made of tribal people briefly given civ. goods, and then abandoned: they tried to make the planes come back by making ceremonial landing strips out of plants, etc...

[pennilesscripple]

heat and cooked food and dependable food supplies are all sustainable, and i don't see them as exclusive to friendship/family

what i meant by 'they know nothing else' is that people in our society haven't experienced true connection and true community...they may long for it, as it is something all humans long for, but they don't think it is possible. so they do as they have been trained...they use consumer goods as a substitute for connection

[blampow]

Jensen opposes land cultivation, division of labor, and certainly any mode of winter heating above "campfire" (i.e. gas, electric). But I should have thought of better examples, like hunting rifles, metal carving tools (totem poles only got bigger than walking sticks with european metal tool technology).

[blampow]

I'm not sure we're agreed on the terms we disagree about - I dislike pollution, prozac culture, modern pop culture etc, enough to put me nearish the far end of a bell curve with you and other anarchoprimitivists. I don't think our civ. will continue as it has for much longer: it's only been 100 years since people widely moved off family farms.

[blampow]

Encased in a cultural bubble of "service sector" employment (might as well be the "handjob sector", since it's incestuous amongst the recipients of imported goods, and never touches a foot on the "ground" of manufacturing), the average voter has no differential impact on the direction of world events beyond vividly demonstrating democracy's limitations. Sure, north american culture is a blind, retarded, destructive giant. But that's not *civilisation* per se.

[iaeruo]

amen.

[blampow]

I'd say there are three future options, probably in our lifetimes: apocalypse/Mad Maxish meltdown (anarchoprimitivism wants to lube this up, but basically promotes it), totalitarian paranoid-schizophrenic scifi dystopia (Kim Jong Il, thumbprint scanners, implanted tracking chips), or technology so advanced it seems like magic.

[blampow]

Quadriplegics can move cursors around on a screen with neural implants. Light has been slowed to a crawl (not sure if it was stopped).

[blampow]

"Quadriplegics can move cursors around on a screen with neural implants. Light has been slowed to a crawl (not sure if it was stopped)."

To clarify: this has already happened.

[blampow]

We, as a species, are on the verge of making this planet genuinely *comfortable* for advanced intelligence, culture, development of faculties beyond the basic animal contingent: the best case scenario of APism is foraging for roots and berries (no, it's not *even* farms, it's hunter/gatherer) in a depleted second hand paleolithic, with some 90% of all people now alive dying.

That would suck.

[blampow]

If you think that's inevitable, and just want to psych yourself up for the catastrophe,

A. If you're wrong, you wasted your time.

B. If you actively promoted it, you were on the wrong side.

But, mostly, it's so shitty that it doesn't seem worth wasting time on. We, as a species, came out of the savannah with a dream of becoming more than just another ape.

For most of recorded history, flying was a metaphor for an unattainable dream: now it's a boring inconvenience.

[blampow]

By "not wasting time on", I mean that if civ. were brought down, people wouldn't sigh in relief and clump in bands of hunter/gatherers: they'd fight like hell over remaining resources as the system gradually crashed, probably nuking the entire planet in the process. Even if civ. came down, APism would just be another political group, probably not with much more "electability" than it has now.

[iaeruo]

if civ. fell we would enter a failing medieval modernism- a new dark age.

as resources get more scarce there is going to be more regimentation and more fascism. the current dominionists are scramblig for more regimentation. in america we are perched headlong into the total soceity - orwell and huxley's nightmarish vision.

what can the individual do? the only way to save humanity, 'the human' in us, as the human is consumed by the technological is an intense cotemplation of being.

[nicolatwo]

Hello, Thank you for your responses. I agree with you on one point: that our democracy is not really a democracy. Not in the original greek meaning at least. The reason for this is that the public who votes is brainwashed by TV, radio and internet. Only a small percentage of the population is able to see through the propaganda from the right.

[nicolatwo]

You talk about regimentation. The corporate right wants to get rid of it so they can pollute, destroy and exploit. That is my night mare. Not the regimentation from the government. I care about the planet and the animals.

[iaeruo]

i fear the corporate right as well. i fear what they are going to do in the future, since they are combining their corporate fascism with right-wing fundamentalist christianity, paramilitary guns for hire (black-water) and fema is making camps all over the US. i know i am not alone when i say this is a horrible scenerio.

[nicolatwo]

No, you are not alone. I sometimes feel like I am though. Derrick Jensen's books are great books about the history of US exploitation. But I don't agree with him about helping to end civilization. I don't want us to die a gruesome death.

[nicolatwo]

The only way we might be able to change the mind set of the general population is by being an example. That is the only chance to create a new paradigm or fad. But a good fad. Since people like fads so much. It can only be a peaceful movement. Not one of physical resistance. One biggy in this whole brainwash terror is the anti Clinton propaganda. Too many fall for it. It is false what they accuse the Clintons of. The media mislead and distort. The conspiracy books are also in it for profit.

[or0n]

You'd rather die a pathetic, useless pacifist

[nicolatwo]

For orOn: I am not useless. Sorry that you see me as useless. I do a lot for this planet and the animals.

[nicolatwo]

For orOn: Have you ever heard of Mahatma Gandhi? He changed the world with pacifism and he was not useless.

[dusteroo]

"But I don't agree with him about helping to end civilization. I don't want us to die a gruesome death."

Ending civilization is the opposite of ending humanity. Civilization IS the problem for humanity . That's the fundamental point of his anti-civ angle.

If we could (re)learn how to coexist, in harmony, with all each other and in hamony with the natural world around us, that would be the goal achieved. And sustaining that goal would be a test of the collective spirit of humanity.

[nicolatwo]

For dusteroo: I disagree with you. Civilization is not the problem. Lack of proper information is the problem. Even those people without the conscience among us can be taught to behave peacefully. Europe does not have these severe problems we have here in the USA, because they teach right conduct. The US mafia has taken that out of our schools by teaching the Christian dogma and fads instead of love and peace.

[dusteroo]

well either way, our civilization is beyond the point of no return. It has turned into a monster from it's success of failure. Europe does have many things that are problematic as well.

But it's like we've allowed our technology to surpass humanity. Humanity just isn't physically, biologically, spiritually, nor philosophically evolved enough to handle our technological progression...

[dusteroo]

Our technology goes against everything divine. I say that with spirituality and science at balance in mind. And of course, Americans are like babies with toys given to them without understanding of the purpose, but honestly ever since the most basic forms of industrialisation, that began humanity's moderate decline. But you just don't understand my approach about civilization being the problem. It really is. Trust me. 

We can't debate here and draw a conclusion at a *snap* of a finger.

[blampow]

dusteroo: "But it's like we've allowed our technology to surpass humanity. Humanity just isn't physically, biologically, spiritually, nor philosophically evolved enough to handle our technological progression..."

Okay, I'll buy that. So why not evolve ourselves, instead of backpedaling? And if you're going to give up and lose ground, why not nuke the whole planet and get back to something really safe and sustainable - mold and cockroaches?

[nicolatwo]

For dusteroo: I agree with you about humans not being ready for the responsibilities of our current technology. That is absolutely true. Most people, or the vast majority of people are not capable of handling life the right way, not even for themselves. But that's why we desperately need good government and not less government. But of course the current governments, which consist of people, which are just a sample of our population, don't work properly.

[nicolatwo]

For dusteroo part 2: Derrick, I think we might end up in another tribal system whether we like it or not. But I don't voluntarily want to go there. That's why I do anything I can to avoid this situation in the future. And I wish others would do the same.

[dusteroo]

(2)I don't think it's a matter of going back to tribalism, or the cliché stone-age setting.. [though we both agree that's highly possible after the success-bubble pops]. It's simply a matter of making living far simpler. Simple living = more freedom.

[dusteroo]

Well, when you mention "...the vast majority of people are not capable of handling life the right way", that's the part where I say we're at an incredibly pivotal point in world history ~ this is a matter of "survival of the fittest". If they can't live sustainably, responsibly, or self-reliantly, they've failed life's first and most fundamental test. It will get worse before it gets better from now on.

Good gov. over less gov ? Perhaps the ideas of 1776 couldn't be more appropriate now..

[nicolatwo]

For dusteroo: Derrick, I admire you. You are a fantastic writer and you care. But you have to agree that the only way we can force society and corporate control to change is by not being their consumers any longer. Peaceful resistance is the only way. Unless we have to directly defend ourselves. I admire the ALF, but their approach is causing the masses to see activists as terrorists. It is not helping education and the world's peace message.

[nicolatwo]

For dusteroo part 2: If corporate dictation would invade my home or my friend's homes then we have the right to defend ourselves physically. That's when we are in a state of civil war and anarchy. It would be horror and I am terrified of it. What are the ideas of 1776?

[nicolatwo]

For dusteroo part 3: I agree with you on everything else of course. Maybe you see the future. But you did not vote for Hillary and made the future you saw come true. We must start to live as responsible consumers, every one of us. Then we can say: "At least I have done what was necessary even if the rest of the population did not help". All we have is to start with us caring people. Then, later, can we judge others for their passiveness.

[dusteroo]

"But you did not vote for Hillary and made the future you saw come true. "

That's one of the most vulnerable, naive comments I've heard in too long.

So sad I cannot even stamp an LOL on your forehead.

There's so much about politics and government you evidently aren't aware of, i could address every level of your ignorance on all that for weeks...>

[dusteroo]

<...You have to be a fool to think Hillary is any different from any other frontrunners; let alone, think the elections are as real as pro wrestling or NASCAR.

There's just too much more to it; you're either aware or not of how far under the propaganda spell you are, it's caused you to not realize which political cause you're feeding: socialism(and what form?). I just wish you knew some things outside of the knowledge that influences your opinions. Things just aren't as they appear...

[nicolatwo]

Freedom of consumer choice falls into the same category as voting for a politician. Everything is being marketed and pushed on the public by peer pressure techniques which have been studied and tested before applied to make sure people will fall for it.

[nicolatwo]

Only a small percentage of the population is able to buy things that are in harmony with the planet. Yes, we need to contemplate about our existence and figure out how to live without destroying everything else around us. Self sustainable living utilizing the sun, wind and geothermal energy is the only way to get out of the dictation, corruption, poverty, and pollution.

[iaeruo]

nicolatwo...freedom of consumer choice does fall into the same category of voting for a politician. i think M. McLuhan said something like "at the speed of light politicans turn into charismatic images.'

they are sold just like a pair of jeans or a toothbrush. we are buying a product, an image.

[iaeruo]

when i speak of regimentation i speak of the regimentation of thinking. one doesn't have to see goosestepping on the capital to notice the goosestepping of group-thinking. just like you said when there is a "voting public who is brainwashed by TV, radio ect.." there is a regimentation of thought.

the state of consciousness on the planet is what worries me.

[blampow]

Anyway. I get what you're saying. I respect Jensen's theories - that's why I disagree so strongly, I see their quality - and think he's genuinely seen two of my three future prospects - paranoid-schizophrenic-validat­ing scifi nightmare dystopia versus Mad Max postapocalypse crash - and he's trying, in good faith, to soften the ground for the crash.

[blampow]

I don't think he has much of a view of the *good* apocalypse - the idea that the (so far) 5000+ year long rising water level of human capability could lift us out of the well of our animal struggle for life, graduating us to another level of existence.

[blampow]

Some examples: Robert Heinlein's bittersweet "Childhood's End", the somewhat metaphysical omega-point thinking of Teilhard de Chardin, the more nuts-and-bolts, loonily-optimistic kurzweilai (google that, can't link), or, hey, Buckminster Fuller. You quoted him.

[blampow]

I think I sort of get your point about bullshit (though properly defined, BS *is* the marketing strategy, not the content thereof): we probably agree on more than it seems, and probably have the same ideals: thing is, I don't think Jensen's ideals will *work*: it's not that I disagree with the spirit of them.

[blampow]

Thomas de Zengotita coined the "Justin's Helmet Principle" to explain ugly, tasteless behaviour adopted on a provably beneficial, case-by-case basis: kids nowadays have big ugly bike helmets. You can scoff at the coddling, until your own kid gets a brain injury. So you get a helmet. It's the same with civ.: it's all Noble Savage Ideals until your mom gets an infected wound or your wife dies in childbirth.

[blampow]

So, yeah: if you don't think civ. is part of human life, find documented instances of the benefits of pre/non-civilisation. The records are hazy, conveniently. Chief Seattle's famous environmental speech was a fake, written for a screenplay: Shepard Krech's "The Ecological Indian" exposes other myths about using every part of the buffalo (chase them off a cliff, eat only the tongues).

[blampow]

If my thesis that civ. is part of life *could* be disproven (but, to my knowledge, hasn't), my other thesis - that it's easy to attribute all problems to a hazily defined complex of behaviours with no clear alternative - stands.

[veganstanger]

blampow, what in the hell are you talking about, civ is a part of life? Here, I'll disprove you in two sentences. Ready?

1) Homo sapiens lived sustainably for hundreds of thousands of years without civilization.

2) Civilization has existed for less than 10,000 years, and it has and continues to destroy the planet, drive countless species extinct, and make it unlivable for future generations of life.

[blampow]

Stanger, what in the hell are you talking about, sex is a part of life? Here, I'll disprove you in two sentences. Ready?

1) Stanger lived innocently for 12 years without sexual thoughts.

2) Stanger's puberty has existed for less than X years, and it has and continues to cause acne, drive countless socks into the laundry, and make his search history uncomfortable for his parents.

[blampow]

Good point, though - I had to rethink what I meant by "part" and (human)"life".

What I should have said was that people living without "civilisation" (defined by Jensen as human settlements of such size that resources need to be imported) either haven't thought of it or don't have the resources to pull it off.

[blampow]

And, really, wanting to reverse 10,000 years of history ("all" of history) is just silly. At best, Jensen's psychologically prepping us for civ's self-induced fall: at worst, he's a stoner living on his mom's farm who illustrates his points about coercion with anecdotes about sitting on the curb outside walmart, and sells books of interesting but ultimately abstract sociohistorical debate club wankery as romantic adolescent fashion statements.

[jellypoopoo]

Homo sapiens lived sustainably for hundreds of thousands of years without civilization? Hunting and gathering? Hunting a bore with a sharp stick while the woman stays at the cave pregnant and sewing cloths to stay warm? You dont call that civilization?

[jamie0476]

there will allways be evil , hes just saying witch side he is on . its the first step into the fight.

[blampow]

I'm not saying his criticisms, taken individually, aren't valid: I'm saying they're as irrelevant as statistics on the connection between eyes and domestic violence. I suspect there is a strong correlation: the flaw is in assuming eyes are the separate, optional cause of the problem, must eventually be gotten rid of, and in the meantime we should *keep our own eyes* solely to help us blind as many other people as possible, as a provisional measure.

[mcbaldan]

It is true that 7 billion people cannot live off hunting/gathering on a life-drained planet. Derrick Jensen does not say we should start hunting/gathering. It's not "going back" but rather thawing the ice and "moving forward" that he advocates. Of course there are alternatives to this system.

[blampow]

"Derrick Jensen does not say we should start hunting/gathering."

I think Jensen wants to dismantle all civilisation since the division of labour, which would be at least back to the tribal level. Correct me if I'm wrong.

People tend to project their own ideals onto him, but he's ... he's pretty far out there. I think you and I are closer in opinion to each other than to him.

[mcbaldan]

Derrick Jensen says he wants to dismantle civilization. For him, civilization is a way of life based on the growth of cities. Also according to him, a city is a settlement which requires the importation of resources (is not self-sufficient or sustainable). Keep in mind there is a difference between exchanging voluntary trade and forceful theft. I think his ideology is pretty clear. If you think all this has nothing to do with anarcho-primitivism, you can call it whatever you want.

[blampow]

Fair enough - you know about his aims already. Still seems solidly regressive and involving massive, 80%+ human population dieoff to me.

My line about forceful deprivation, if that's what you're referring to, meant that Jensen's aims would involve stopping people from engaging in any activity requiring importation - forever. He's approvingly made reference to inuit societies taking troublemakers out on icefloes and setting them adrift.

I said this *was* anarchoprimitivism.

[blampow]

If you're saying "importation of resources is okay if based on voluntary trade and not forceful theft", I doubt he'd agree, but admit I'm not sure.

And ... I reiterate my dismissal of AP as a collegiate fashion statement. I mean ... the barest knowledge of real-world human psychology should show this is not workable. Did I mention Jensen lives on his mom's farm?

[blampow]

Nothing wrong with that in theory, it's just an example of how he's not basing this ... stuff on a hard life as a marine sargeant, or nightclub owner, or whatever. You blow up dams and dismantle factories in one country, it gets taken over. You simultaneously disable them worldwide, once somebody starts one up again when you're not looking, you're their slaves. Remember that Simpsons treehouse of horror episode with the aliens taking over earth with a pointy stick after we burned our weapons?

[blampow]

These aren't workable, relevant plans, and the "system" he complains about - civilisation, as developed over the last 5000 years - is as much a part of humans as hands. Asking what a person's threshold is to get rid of either is a question that obscures its assumption: that hands/civ. are separate from people, forever preventable, and that an alternative is possible.

[mcbaldan]

There is a difference between an addiction and a natural phenomenon. Humans created heroin. Is Does that make it natural for humans to use it? Is it bad or unnatural for a heroin addict to try to get back to a life without heroin?

[blampow]

"There is a difference between an addiction and a natural phenomenon."

Meh. I guess. I suppose my argument would be that people exposed to civ's benefits tend to go for them - look at cargo cults, where tribal types would assemble landing gears for planes and radio towers out of bamboo, using their sacred mystical tribal pre-civilised untainted insight to religiously pray, in oneness with nature, for more food drops.

[blampow]

I guess my point is, you can try to draw a line between what most people *will* do, given opportunity (enjoy civ's benefits), and what we theoretically might "naturally" do (um, reject civ), but there's no hard-and-fast line where you can legitimately deprive them of their stuff by force, on the grounds that they're too greedy.

You can say Hitler and Stalin both had arms, and most serial killers had arms, and arms are involved in most fights, so let's cut off arms ...

[blampow]

Meh. Anarchoprimitivism is a collegiate pseudo-intellectual fashion statement (picture a well-fed suburban guy straining himself trying to look soulful while dressed in bumper stickers decrying cruelty), not a viable world policy.

[blampow]

You need to consume to be a competitive global power: you need to be a competitive global power to enforce your edicts. Collapse the US govt, and unless you can defend against them, China/India take over the "landbase": they're less environmentally friendly. Get rid of dams? Help nature?

[nicolatwo]

For blampow: Nobody said that we need to collapse the US government. The US government does not have to consist of corporations as it currently exists of. It can very well consist of people with consciences.

[blampow]

"Nobody said that we need to collapse the US government."

Do you know *anything* about Jensen? nocompromise dot org/issues/26jensen dot html

Jensen: "I want to bring down civilization...It is really clear that for the past 6000 years, civilization has been killing the planet. I'm on the planet's side."

Jesus, do some research before saying what "nobody" says.

[nicolatwo]

For blampow: My statement was just in response to your comment, not in response to what Jensen is talking about. Let's please keep the tone friendly. You obviously don't know me. I am on the side of the planet.

[blampow]

Fair enough, sorry if that came off harsh. But my point stands: Jensen wants to bring us back to a prehistorical state, before cities and division of labour: with that aim in mind, collapsing the US govt is barely worth mentioning. Your stance seems to be "moderate green party", having nothing to do with Jensen's "maybe I'll blow up a dam today (almost a quote)" style political activism.  Are you just trying to keep his more radical views under the radar?

[blampow]

You can't respond to a comment without taking into consideration what that comment was about, in this case Jensen's views.

[moonuni]

this guy is on to it, i hope the silence does not speck volumes.