Why is there such a huge gap between uke and tori? Tori needs to establish control before it is possible to apply sankyo and that involves getting tori's centre as close as possible to uke's centre. If sankyo is attempted like this uke can stand up before sankyo can be applied.
@ketsan tori has the arm bar in full extension before applying sankyo... if uke tries to get up it just helps tori apply sankyo because the next movement for sankyo is upward... its just more of the harmony and blending of aikido that is missing in so many of the hard styles of aikido and in my opinion degrades it to just wrestling and limits its effectiveness...
@matthewexpert My point is that uke shouldn't have been down long enough for sankyo to be applied. There's no control on uke, you can even see this in the way that uke practically stands back up. Why bring him down to let him get back up to then bring him down again?
@ketsan that's how sankyo works... by taking out the slack in the arm by jamming it upwards so you want the attacker to stand up as you spin around, just makes less work for you... remember in aikido you aren't "doing" anything to someone like you keep saying (why bring him down)... he brings him self down... then you let him get up while you apply sankyo... all riding the wave of his energy as you relax and extend...
@matthewexpert When I'm uke I don't bring myself down. If I'm doing it, tori isn't, tori may as well not be there. Tori's energy (ki) should be joining (ai) and so controling uke's. That's not happening here. Uke is free to do as they please, in other words they're free to fight back.
@ketsan that just means you aren't attacking honestly, which is a huge problem... because in aikido practice both sides know the technique.ex: i cant get an honest attack in my dojo for example.an honest attacker will fall on his face or butt when aikido is applied.but if you punch then stop then of course no aikido will happen because you stopped your attack, there is no threat.and if you want to fight back then another aikido technique is used, feel free to fight back until you are too tired
@matthewexpert WTF? No, honest Aikido will put someone on their butt regardless of the attack or even absence of an attack. You should be able to harmonise with a person under all conditions.
This is a problem I have with doshuites, excellent ukemi, shit technique that relies on insanely overexhaggerated attacks. An honest shomen uchi stops dead at chudan with uke in good solid posture ready to attack again, not falling into a technique so that tori can throw him.
@ketsan read what you are writing... you are saying that you can put someone on their butt even if they dont attack you. read it again. then again. then again. keep reading it until you realize that you are talking about creating war out of peace.
@matthewexpert Oh I know the implications of what I'm saying; I'm making a technical statement not an ethical one. I can harmonise with anyone in any situation.
Then again I don't see conflict as being bad or good, it just is. It's an Aikido thing you look past the dualistic world and into the real one.
@matthewexpert Get your bokken out, do sankyo. See how far away from your bokken you can get. See how far from your centre your hands are, see how far away from your power your hands are. Now I'm off training!
@ketsan Moriteru Ueshiba is the leader of all of aikido world wide... do you really think in martial arts where the family tradition communicates all kinds of secret inner teachings that o'sensei's son is doing it all wrong? remember the more muscle you put in your aikido the more easily i'll counter and resist you and "bring you down".
@matthewexpert Who said anything about muscle? I'm talking about positioning. Remember when O-Sensei said that mans power only operates in a certain distance from his body, Doshu is well outside of that distance. Uke's centre and tori's centre need to be as close as possible and in this instance there is too much distance between them.
@ketsan i've never met o'sensei or read where he said that... but in the videos of osensei that i see he has considerable more distance (and the same distance as shown in this video of his grandson) between him and his attackers than ive seen many american based aikido teachers advise:
need proof: youtube.com/watch?v=B7Cfpay1X2c
now compare how o'sensei does it to how 99% of aikido practitioners do it...
who do you emulate? o'sensei or someone else? luckily we have his videos.
it is a shomenuchi - hard to tell from "real speed" but if you look at the slow motion you can clearly see how Uke manages to strike before Doshu reaches his arm
Why is there such a huge gap between uke and tori? Tori needs to establish control before it is possible to apply sankyo and that involves getting tori's centre as close as possible to uke's centre. If sankyo is attempted like this uke can stand up before sankyo can be applied.
ketsan 1 year ago
@ketsan tori has the arm bar in full extension before applying sankyo... if uke tries to get up it just helps tori apply sankyo because the next movement for sankyo is upward... its just more of the harmony and blending of aikido that is missing in so many of the hard styles of aikido and in my opinion degrades it to just wrestling and limits its effectiveness...
matthewexpert 1 year ago
@matthewexpert My point is that uke shouldn't have been down long enough for sankyo to be applied. There's no control on uke, you can even see this in the way that uke practically stands back up. Why bring him down to let him get back up to then bring him down again?
ketsan 1 year ago
@ketsan that's how sankyo works... by taking out the slack in the arm by jamming it upwards so you want the attacker to stand up as you spin around, just makes less work for you... remember in aikido you aren't "doing" anything to someone like you keep saying (why bring him down)... he brings him self down... then you let him get up while you apply sankyo... all riding the wave of his energy as you relax and extend...
matthewexpert 1 year ago
@matthewexpert When I'm uke I don't bring myself down. If I'm doing it, tori isn't, tori may as well not be there. Tori's energy (ki) should be joining (ai) and so controling uke's. That's not happening here. Uke is free to do as they please, in other words they're free to fight back.
ketsan 1 year ago
@ketsan that just means you aren't attacking honestly, which is a huge problem... because in aikido practice both sides know the technique.ex: i cant get an honest attack in my dojo for example.an honest attacker will fall on his face or butt when aikido is applied.but if you punch then stop then of course no aikido will happen because you stopped your attack, there is no threat.and if you want to fight back then another aikido technique is used, feel free to fight back until you are too tired
matthewexpert 1 year ago
@matthewexpert WTF? No, honest Aikido will put someone on their butt regardless of the attack or even absence of an attack. You should be able to harmonise with a person under all conditions.
This is a problem I have with doshuites, excellent ukemi, shit technique that relies on insanely overexhaggerated attacks. An honest shomen uchi stops dead at chudan with uke in good solid posture ready to attack again, not falling into a technique so that tori can throw him.
Anyway. I'm off to train.
ketsan 1 year ago
@ketsan read what you are writing... you are saying that you can put someone on their butt even if they dont attack you. read it again. then again. then again. keep reading it until you realize that you are talking about creating war out of peace.
if no one is attacking you then there is peace.
matthewexpert 1 year ago
@matthewexpert Oh I know the implications of what I'm saying; I'm making a technical statement not an ethical one. I can harmonise with anyone in any situation.
Then again I don't see conflict as being bad or good, it just is. It's an Aikido thing you look past the dualistic world and into the real one.
ketsan 1 year ago
@matthewexpert Get your bokken out, do sankyo. See how far away from your bokken you can get. See how far from your centre your hands are, see how far away from your power your hands are. Now I'm off training!
ketsan 1 year ago
@ketsan Moriteru Ueshiba is the leader of all of aikido world wide... do you really think in martial arts where the family tradition communicates all kinds of secret inner teachings that o'sensei's son is doing it all wrong? remember the more muscle you put in your aikido the more easily i'll counter and resist you and "bring you down".
matthewexpert 1 year ago
@matthewexpert Who said anything about muscle? I'm talking about positioning. Remember when O-Sensei said that mans power only operates in a certain distance from his body, Doshu is well outside of that distance. Uke's centre and tori's centre need to be as close as possible and in this instance there is too much distance between them.
ketsan 1 year ago
@ketsan i've never met o'sensei or read where he said that... but in the videos of osensei that i see he has considerable more distance (and the same distance as shown in this video of his grandson) between him and his attackers than ive seen many american based aikido teachers advise:
need proof: youtube.com/watch?v=B7Cfpay1X2c
now compare how o'sensei does it to how 99% of aikido practitioners do it...
who do you emulate? o'sensei or someone else? luckily we have his videos.
matthewexpert 1 year ago
sankio
hondenman333 1 year ago
sankio
hondenman333 1 year ago
why is it not shomenuchi but shomen ate
Aur0rah 4 years ago
it is a shomenuchi - hard to tell from "real speed" but if you look at the slow motion you can clearly see how Uke manages to strike before Doshu reaches his arm
patrik79a 2 years ago