EXPERIMENTAL Rotary Internal Combustion Engines

[yontopapa]

Felicito a todos quienes han estado construyendo estos motores. Si analizamos profundamente el sistema de pistón y cilindro, seguramente llegaremos a la conclusión de que se ha seguido usando porque deja jugosas ganancias a la industria automotriz mundial; pero no por ser lo más eficiente y conveniente para combatir el cambio climático. Les recomiendo vean: The Best Rotary Engine, how it works que es otro intento eficiente de Motor Rotativo.

[maxneu]

In terms of power per litre of displacement, how does this compare with conventional engines of similar size?

[meadowbrook11]

dats awesome

[RevanantGod]

wow thats quite

[Electrorod1]

A stationary blade compressor has an

outer roller on the rotor itself. if you look

at the design, it's a  bit better, I'm sure you'll agree. Also, if you make the seals

like a spring loaded brake calliper, with inner and outer sets, with lube in between, fed thru the axel, and pumped

by the blade, you'd have a very long lasting

seal, that works better. The oil comes

from between the eccentric and the outter

roller, and returned and cooled, in a closed loop fashion.

[Electrorod1]

Did you know that this was once a steam engine. Over a hundred years ago. It had

seal problems that robbed it's efficiency.

As a compressor, it is used widely in the

AC/Refridgeration field. It is known as a

Statioary Blade Compressor, a rotary vane is altogether a different one.

[FiasaPower]

How much power can it produce ?

[RotaryICEman]

A couple of horsepower with fresh seals.

[RotaryICEman]

I continue to get allot of requests for blueprints & more detailed information. Note that it's all posted on the "Open_RotaryEngine" Yahoo! group. There are hundreds of files there including: sketches, code, schematics, pictures, commentary, etc.

[1kera]

I like model 23 because it has 2 vanes per rotor, looks like it's getting 2 combustion per revolution. Are you going to install second set of vanes on Model 32?

[RotaryICEman]

I used to think that multiple vanes per rotor would be better. Turns out that from an efficiency point of view, a single vane can be more efficient. Yes, 2 vanes produces 2 combustions per revolution (with twice as many seals), but the combustions are half the capacity of a single vane approach, so it washes out. Multiple vanes (or pistons) can help an engine to run smoother, but my models barely vibrate at all.

[1kera]

Thanx for reply. Can't wait to see the next model

[RotaryICEman]

NOTICE: I've finally posted a paper on the theory of operation, and a proposed powerplant application. It's a first draft, and it's incomplete, but it's a start. It's up on the Yahoo! group. I always try to reply to all the messages that I receive, but note that it may take me a week, or more to do so, so please be patient. Thanks for all your comments, and feedback.

[Whipit8rapture]

nice work!

[speedtroller]

I still have my Rotary Vee that will blow this thing away with 9 moving parts. Wanna see a video of it?

[RotaryICEman]

If you have videos of your engine, you should definitely put them up on YouTube. There are many people like myself that would enjoy seeing them, and learning from them. If you have any relevant documents, or photos, that you would like to share, you're welcome to post them on our 'Open_RotaryEngine' Yahoo! group.

[superfunnyman123]

what are you using for a spark plug timer?

[RotaryICEman]

I've tried a variety of spark systems. Traditional magnetos & distributors, high voltage power supplies, etc. The current method is basically a custom designed electronic ignition system. An optical shaft encoder generates the timing for the spark plugs & all other engine events. I originally developed it for Model 23. The drawings are up on the Yahoo! group: 'Open_RotaryEngine'.

[ozykiss]

I find it interesting why you are using a dipper gate valve to seal it.

Surely the inertia of this peice would render it useless at higher speeds ?

I am wondering why you did not use an oval rotor in it's place ?

Garret

[RotaryICEman]

I'm not really sure what a 'dipper gate valve' is, or to which design you're referring to. The latest models use a reed valve in the transfer port; it has virtually no mass. They run at only a few KRPM. I've experimented with various rotor shapes, but non circular shapes are difficult for me machine & get a good finish, and they didn't seem to offer any particular advantage. There's still allot of work to be done, and allot of discoveries to be made.

[IHARTPIE]

RotaryICEman congrats on your designs, would this work with a magneto kind of like a Briggs or A Tecumseh mini bike engine.

Keep us posted.

[RotaryICEman]

I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't work. On your first attempt, it would be easier for you if you run with 2-stroke fuel because you'll get better compression, even if your seals are not perfect. After the bugs are worked out, you can migrate to dry operation if you want. See the Yahoo! group: 'Open_RotaryEngine' for additional details.

[hudsonitalia]

what if you ran this engine on hho gas by means of a water fuel cell or used water injection with a more powerfull spark plug

curcut to ignite the water vapor? have you heard of the firestorm spark plug?

[RotaryICEman]

There are certainly many fuel options, but I haven't spent allot of time on that because I have so many engine design issues to resolve. Hydrogen is a very promising long-term fuel. I'm inexperienced regarding HHO, but if it can be successfully used in piston engines, then it would work on this design as well. Water injection cycles can reclaim wasted energy from inefficient designs, but as efficiency increases there is less residual heat energy available to be reclaimed.

[monkyspanker]

Great work, I'd love to know more so I've signed up to your group. Hope to build one too soon. Thanks :)

[horseguy1]

so with this new engine you are making a hit and miss type engine? sort of.....and keep up the good work!

if you can could you post some more running videos?

[RotaryICEman]

Yes, sort of, except that the 'miss' cycles (when the vanes are held out) occur very efficiently since there are no pumping action losses; no input suction, no compression losses, and no exhaust cycle. It's like if a clutch mechanism disconnected the key parasitic loads. Only friction losses due to the seals & bearings remain. In piston ICEs, even if you could hold all the valves open, it would only suppress compression losses, but pumping & other losses would remain (continued).

[RotaryICEman]

(continued) Such low losses during 'miss' cycles (including the absence of valvetrains, linkages, etc.) means that the engine could be efficiently coupled directly, in-line with an electric motor/generator/load assembly (next-gen Hybrid-Electric). Every power stroke could be requested on an individual basis, as needed & any number of extra stages (cylinders) can be added & used as needed; it's all about efficiency. Visit the YAHOO! group: 'Open_RotaryEngine' for more information.

[slowcreep]

i wonder have you ever tried to build a bigger prototype???....put it in a compact vehicle that grosses not more than 2800lbs!!!!....who knows.....you may become the new GM!!!!!XDXDXDXD

[RotaryICEman]

With my meager resources, I think that if I had attempted to build full scale models, I would still be working on Model 01. Even my small models take me about a year (in my spare time) to design, build & test. Sometimes after all that work on a new design, I discover that I attempted to violate a law of physics & I have to start over!

[RotaryICEman]

NOTICE: I finally started posting the sketches, pictures, schematics, source code, etc on the Yahoo! Group: 'Open_RotaryEngine'. I have hundreds of files to post, so it'll take me a while to finish it. Please read my commentary there BEFORE attempting to build your own engine, or before submitting any questions. Have fun. -Dave

[speedtroller]

That is NOT what I ahve heard. Fill me in 231-238-7388

[speedtroller]

Look at the number of parts - that is making me sick compared to the Rotary Vee concept. This may be viable but not usable - YOU find out for yourself.

[beachguync]

actually I have about 30 of them

since he was my dad I have all of the prototypes he built

[beachguync]

If you know Robert what is his sons name?

[speedtroller]

Well it not Greg Lifschultz is it?

[beachguync]

no

try again

[beachguync]

I have known robert about 33 years and helped build the first engines there in snyder. I was there from the start

[speedtroller]

Yah well he is in prison. Do you own a ROTARY VEE? I didn't think so, I have one - actually I have two that run GREAT.

[speedtroller]

The powers that be should tell you to shut the heck up..... as they have to me and everybody else that knows about the Rotary Vee.

[RotaryICEman]

Check my channel page & other videos for status updates.

[speedtroller]

ioc55 - I think if you login and go to your account and then click on send message. Then you can click on General Messages - THere should be one from me in your General Messages. Try that and we'll talk.

[speedtroller]

The Sullivan Rotary Vee is in Synder, OK. Oh I also went to Chicago in the early 1990's and I saw the engine run in person. But the guy wouldn't let me take pictures. It was AWESOME. It was also displayed and run at the Oshkosh Air Show at some point in the late 80's early 90's. Now the marketing guy in Chicago won't let see it until I sign a letter of non-disclosure. But that meant that I could never talk about it again. So I said no and I didn't get to see what is happening with it now.

[ioc55]

I personally know Robert Sullivan. Can you tell me your name? I have alot of personal knowledge about this engine. I have a direct line to Robert Sullivan and can ask him anything I want at anytime.

[speedtroller]

I sent you a message with my email address because I didn't want to post it on YouTube.

If you click on your account you should be able to read the message and we will talk through email instead of through posted comments. I hid all the parts that Robert Sullivan gave me and I am getting the video that I have on VHS and such put on DVD. See if you can find the message that I sent. If you know robert sullivan you know he had an airplane inside the shop area where the Rotary Vee parts are sitting

[dantheman1998]

If you are having sealing problems why not use a hybrid oil system using graphite also. Why dont you want to use oil? for simplicity or becuase it will effect effiecny?

[RotaryICEman]

I feel that 'better mousetraps' succeed when they're significantly better (prefferably on several fronts). Small incremental changes are just not enough. The seal problems aren't principally due to my use of graphite. I avoid oil due to efficiency, emissions & simplicity. I've tested 2-stroke fuels (which contains oil) & others run their test models this way, but this solution would never make it out of the research lab. Diesel or vegetable oil operation might be the one exception.

[dantheman1998]

Is there a website or wiki? Its opensource right? You have any plans to download? Please make more vids! i want to see moar! Maybe some explinations and reasons why you took a particular design path.

[RotaryICEman]

These are all very valid and popular questions. I get allot of complaints on the lack of other info. Yes, it's open source; I'm holding nothing back. There's no wiki, or drawings & my only defense is lack of time. I'm not retired, or independently wealthy, so progress is slow. However, this hasn't kept many determined individuals from making them using nothing more than the videos, my commentary & some Q&A. I hoped that some of them would help by sharing their work, but (continued)

[RotaryICEman]

(continued) this hasn't occurred yet. I'm currently working on Model 34. I've lost allot of time on fixtures, seal experiments & equipment modifications. I'll probably produce another video once I complete it, but it'll take a while. In the mean time, I may produce an interim video with construction tips, etc. There's more commentary in my channel & other vids.

[rearwheelslider]

Theres a reason why rotarys arent being used. They dont last, and they burn oil. Did i mention how un efficient they are?

[RotaryICEman]

Such a broad & general statement regarding ALL rotary ICEs can only come from someone truly ignorant & naive.

[speedtroller]

I have a Sullivan Rotary Vee non reciprocating engine that would blow your mind. I got it from the inventor Robert Sullivan in Snyder OK. Google the Texas A&M SAE Paper. HAHA - I have one that he gave me before it went TOP SECRET. They are using them on nuclear submarines for power generation. It is THE BEST.

[ioc55]

When and where did you get the engine from Robert Sullivan? WHich model do you have?

[speedtroller]

I read about the it in an avaiation magazine in 1986. I was in Dallas in '98 and I called him. I drove to his shop in Sullivan OK and he showwed me everything. I went back a few days later with a video camera and we talked for a while and he gave me parts for a Rotary Vee. Some were protoype and I have one engine bank. He said it was enough to figure out how to build a Rotary Vee. I do not have a complete engine but I have video of a complete engine. I have video of it running from late 1980's.

[speedtroller]

Check my latest comment on this subject.

[borbor122]

GO DAVE ! this looks like something i want to invest in ;D

[RotaryICEman]

Thanks. I do this for fun, so I have no investment opportunities for you. I'm sure that there are plenty of others out there working on this that would gladly take your money.

[borbor122]

I'll just say it again AWSOME ENGINE !

[tpvalley]

It has a power stroke it says, now I'm even more baffled!

You are a genius sir! either that or it is in fact whitchcraft and the engines dont really work; its a magic spell I say!!! lol.

Really good idea though!

[TheRooster602]

Hi dave:

Awesome engine!

check the animated gif at the bottom of this page: engineair dot com dot au forwardslash development dot htm

He uses 6 reciprocating vanes.

allabest

Roo

[RotaryICEman]

Interesting. There seems no end to the number of rotary vane ICE design variations. Some seem better than others but even the simplest most elegant design suffers from at lest 2 key problems: lubrication & sealing corners (which is very difficult). Graphite can address lubricity but a dry dynamic seal (without a liquid boundary layer) must be fitted to within a few 10ths which aggravates thermal expansion effects. It's all doable but it requires allot of time & experimentation.

[TheRooster602]

Strangely enough DiPietro says the air engine has no seals (I didn't follow the explanation) or lubrication because it uses an air bearing. No thermal expansion because it runs on air.

[RedFathom]

you know if you used a planetary gear system with a model 23 compressor you could get 2 compression cycles per 1 combustor revolution.

why did you go choose a single vane system over the double?

[RotaryICEman]

There are many design possibilities & I've investigated quite a few of them. Many still remain to be explored & others are also working on it. I dismissed gears & complex shapes because I can't make them & they require lubrication. My goal is for a very efficient & simple design. Multiple vanes increases power density but not efficiency.

[nanocrete]

Thats too easy. Where are all the parts? ;p when are u making a fullsize version to power a auto? Nice job!

[RotaryICEman]

Thank you. There's still allot of research to be done & it's far easier to do it on small models. I'm also limited by the capacity of my small desktop machining equipment as well as time & $. It takes me ~1 year to make one of these in my spare time. Imagine how long it would take me to make a larger one. Fortunately, others have joined this program & are independently working on it. Some have far more resources than me & they have much more ambitious goals.

[mozon1967]

That is great engineering! Well done!

Have you tried running it on hydroxy gas(browns gas, HHO, oxyhydrogen). It's gas from the electrolysis of water ( water fuel cell). The cells are very easy to make and there are several advantages: the engine would run cooler, water vapor is the only exhaust and since the flame speed is so much faster than gasoline you can retard the spark timming.

Many poeple are making home made water fuel cells. Please let me know if you try it, if you haven't yet.

[RotaryICEman]

Thank you. I've run tests using a variety of fuels. I haven't tried HHO yet (others may have) but I would like to. The design is versatile enough to run on just about anything combustable. Right now, characterizing & improving Model 32 is my highest priority. There's allot of work to do & I only have so much time. There are others independently experimenting with these designs & I'm hoping that they'll share their work as I have. -Dave

[samoht1977]

This is art. Really. Art + passion. Gorgeous!

[xXxmidgexXx]

Mazda RX-8 Has a similar engine.Its called Wankle.

[RotaryICEman]

I just posted a new video on the latest design.

[Triple88a]

so tempting to stick your finger in there isnt it? :) Preatty cool

[Aeryk333]

Very cool! Thank you.

[Tattmemore]

That is a fantastic youtube video...very interesting and alot of food for thought. As a motorcycle enthusiast i've some experience with the norton rotary engines...but never actually seen the internal combustion cycle through a lexan screen...brilliant...well done.

[dieguinio2007]

GREAT video and nice work!

[flatthump]

Are you cooling this bad boy?

[RotaryICEman]

No, none are cooled. After ~10 minutes they're too hot to touch. They stabilize @ ~150 Deg C. The large (~20:1) expansion ratio produces cooler, quieter (no muffler required) exhaust gases. Graphite withstands very high temps while running bone dry (without any lubrication). I'm machining fins on the newest design only to help protect the sealed bearings. As efficiency improves, less energy will be dissipated as waste heat. -Dave

[mungoesmad]

It's a variation on the wankel engine with twice as many moving parts. the big problem with the wankel engine was rotor tip wear, this wear has now been compounded by adding, "vanes", that will in my estimation, wear rapidly. this is a over complicated wankel engine.

[RotaryICEman]

Thanks for your feedback; it all helps. Wankels are known for their simplicity & high power density, not efficiency. A more efficient design would surely be forgiven for having more parts (V-8's have 100's & we keep making them). Independent compression & large expansion ratios along with modulating the vane engagement improves efficiency, gang-up, & throttling. Vane tip wear replenishes itself (like brushes in an electric motor). These designs are long shots, but we have to try. -Dave

[nrowland56]

That things has a really neat sound to it & I like your clear side covers! Nice job on the machining.

[SnowyAstra]

Fantastic stuff, excellent engineering, i like how responsive it is aswell :-) Nice one

[jphdg]

That is unreal!

Have you rated its shaft output power?

Reliability, what sort of life would be expected from the graphite valves?

[RotaryICEman]

The latest model generates ~150 Watts on the dynamometer. This is about 1/10 of what I'd like to see. Improving the seals & the transfer ports is part of the solution. I'm very happy with the wear characteristics of the Graphite components. Some models have accumulated over 100 million revolutions (most of it NOT under fire) with few problems. -Dave