catholicism is not christian!catholicism is an extension of the roman empire,mitraism,paganism,sun worship,satanism disguise of christianity!waste of time talking or listening to brainwashed catholic apologists that dont even know their own history.
Does william ever answer a direct question without saying" I dont understand the question" ~~ or back tracking and saying" I never said that "
I listened to him calling the Dividing Line & Dr White first off asked him to demonstrate what another RC apologist could not do it a debate with him ~ william simply avoided the question & continued to change the topic & spoke over Dr white all the time ~ Dr White destroyed him on his show ~ & even had to mute him to get a point across ~ some apologist
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is dead, or "sleeping" (as our Lord puts it many times), and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. Where in scripture is the phrase "mother of God" ????? You look with reverence on Mary when you should be glorifying God for the work He accomplished in her.
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is "sleeping" (as our Lord puts it many times), and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. Where in scripture is the phrase "mother of God" ????? You look with reverence on Mary when you should be glorifying God for the work He accomplished in her.
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is "sleeping" (as our Lord puts it many times), and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. You are praying to a dead person that CANNOT HEAR YOU!!! Where in scripture is the phrase "mother of God" ?????
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is "sleeping" (as our Lord puts it many times), and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. You are praying to a dead person that CANNOT HEAR YOU!!!
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is sleeping and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. You are praying to a dead person that CANNOT HEAR YOU!!!
@loveYehoshua Matthew 22:32 says "I am the God of the dead not the living" we see in Mark 9:4 that Moses and Elijah appeared to the apostles and were next to Jesus. I thought they were dead? Dead in the body, not the soul. Hebrews 12:1 says "we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses." the saints in Heaven are the saints in Heaven. Also, Mary is righteous so her prayers availeth much(james5:16) so it is good to ask her to pray for us.
Mary full of grace is nowhere in the bible. Who taught you greek? Look in John 1:16, THAT is divine grace. Mary is not mentioned to being full of grace anywhere in the bible. Secondly, "Hail" in the 1611 King james bible is a 17th century greeting, not a form of angelic veneration lol.
Thirdly Mary herself gave a SIN OFFERING in Luke 2:24 as was custom in Leviticus 12:6-8. She is conceived with original sin (Gal 4:4). I can post way more. but yes you guys worship her. venerate. same thing.
@BindingMazzaroth To be fair, Jesus himself was also baptized, and he was not a sinner. Mary could have given the offering out of humility or tradition.
No, the Bible doesn't. Neither does it condemn it. What of it ? It is ahistorical to expect a first century body of documents to satisfy the questions that arise for later orthodoxies; Catholicism & Calvinism both have roots in the various forms of first-century Christian discipleship, but neither of them is identical with first-century Christianity; partly because first-century Christianity was not itself unified. To expect the NT to be judge of later questions is ridiculous.
what do all the cats have to say about the prophecies of Fatima ? How can you deny the eucharist when hosts (pieces of bread) HAVE BLED HUMAN BLOOD AND TURNED INTO HUMAN HEART TISSUS ... they will live in incest their entire lives and deny GOD while they say they serve hiim .. I guess that guy named Jesus was right when he said FEW ARE SAVED ... owned
No human is worthy of any amount of veneration or worship because we are all sinners (Psalm 14:3, Romans 3:23); we are to worship God and serve Him only (Matthew 4:10); and God will not give His Glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11).
After listening to this debate ~ I conclude that Turretinfan destroyed Williams arguments.
Its clear that this Marian dogma alone is of fantasy origin, and is of no consequence in order to come to Christ and get Saved, its more of a hindrance to Salvation rather than a help.
Its interesting also the word Veneration can also be interchanged with the word Worship, and we are only to worship God.
I can clearly see that Catholicism is lacking and operates on false hopes and fantasy doctrines.
If worship means the honour fitting God alone, & respect means an inferior honour such as creatures may receive because of their relation to God - IOW, a form of respect - then there is no difference between your position and the Catholic one. The only difference between honouring a servant of God on earth, & the same person once in heaven, is the "location". A Saint in heaven or on earth - Mary, say - is nothing w/o Christ .
it's amazing that you want to be proud to speak Greek and think that Rome is the Church of God when if you actually did your history then you'd know that Greek and Rome whether the big ones in following Zeus the god of all creation in their eyes and to know that Iesous is a form of saying son of Zeus. To know the facts of your own religions history would do you much good unless yo know the truth and still spread lies.
Jesus was 100%man and 100% God.God the Son is eternal,where as their was a beginning to Jesus the man,this making Mary the mother of Jesus,instead of the mother of God.
Malechi Martin,a R.C.C.EXOCIST,has been qouted as saying that Satan is protected by the R.C.C.He is dead now,but told of Homosexual acts being preformed during Satanic rituals in the Vatican.He wrote many books about the R.C.C,but he put them is fiction form,he also was interveiwed by Coast to Coast radio.
When it is says of Mary that all will call her blessed,it does mean we are to venerated her,we are to agree that yes,Mary was blessed by God.Just like if you said all people will call me luckey because I won a million dollars. Like man,that guy was luckey everyone says he was luckey.
It all boils down to human reason...the Bible does NOT teach veneration of Mary...Mary's 'fiat' indeed! What about Noah's fiat? If he hadn't 'consented' the human race would have ended!
True, BUT the difference is the Trinity is reasonably inferred, not a stretch at all, as is the deity of Christ. The veneration of Mary and the papacy miserably fail in this area.
I don`t think so How can God become man how can this three persons be ONE at the same time? It is a Mistery of Faith, you and I believe it because we have FAITH. Same about what we believe about Mary. Veneration of Mary DOESN`T mean She is God, or we ADORE HER, it is a higher respect for the woman who gave birth the SON OF MAN; She gave Birth to God (JESUS).
All what we believe about Mary, comes in the Bible from the Genesis til Revelation
read the original scriptures, have a degree in the bible, learn to speak and understand greek, if you do that, you would testify that the veneration of Mary is taught in the Bible :)
Mary was just a human being like everyone else. to deny she was in need of Gods salvation is to deny the message of the gospel IE - "Justification by faith alone". Thank the Lord that He came to redeem us including his earthly mother Mary.
I envy Mary in as much as she spent much of her life with the Lord and in this sence she is blessed. however It is Jesus and Jesus alone who redeemed us and it is on him we should put the TOTALITY of our trust. The bible clearly forbids worsip of others!
Why should we venerate Mary just because she was blessed by God? I'm blessed by God, does that mean we should venerate me?
What GNRHeretic refuses to admit is that Luke 1:48 is a statement of fact, and not a command to offer prayers to her. What the heretic wont admit is that when Mary said all generations will call her blessed, she wasn't commanding people to offer prayers to her and give her special attention at church.
1st Kings 2:19 "Bath-sheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand"
Matt 20:23 "Jesus said.....to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father."
The problem with this line of reasoning (Mary is Queen Mother, Peter is Prime Minister Eliakim) is that the NT NEVER affirms this. Numerous much-less-significant details (the amount of money Jesus was betrayed for?) are referenced but not the 'blessed mother' nor the 'holy father'? Come on, now!
Are you an exegete to say NT never affirms this? probably you just know nothing in reading the Bible.. ask first before you oppose :P i pity you catholicexodus
Mary is "blessed" because of who God is -- not because of who Mary is. Of course she is blessed -- because of God's pleasure in choosing her, and not other reason inherent in Mary. Mary's role is no doubt very significant, because God CHOOSE her for that role. Notice the Magi do not venerate Mary -- nor is veneration of Mary repeated elsewhere in the NT: "On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him." --Matthew 2:10-12
The commandments say honor your mother and father. Jesus said Mary was are mother. Therefore we must honor his and our mother. Its basic logic lol! Awesome comment!
Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of his children, and his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a truly divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother in a personal sense.
"John 19:26-27 "When Jesus therefore saw His mother & the disciple standing by, whom He loved, He said to His mother, 'Woman, behold your son!' Then said He to the disciple, 'Behold your mother!' And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home."
How do come to the conclusion that Jesus gave Mary to all of his children in these 2 verses & how do you know that Jesus' words in this particular case were "truly divine purpose" - mother of all?
This is what you are tell me but it is not what is in the verses. There is not even a hint that John is an "example" of all believers!
In another instance in Mat. 16:19 Jesus said to Peter "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven...." Should we conclude that Peter was an example of every follower of Jesus to have the keys of heaven?
I believe that Bible interpretes Bible, can you give us reference on these two instances?
William did an excellent job and totally won this debate. Personally i find Turritan's comments on Mary being "unimportant" ect. to be totally offensive, his use of Hebrews 7 to justify his denial of Mary as Mother of God is also laughable since it is clear that what the author is saying is that Christ had no finite beginning that he always existed and that Melchizedek was made to be a type of Christ by having an unknown ancestry. TFan totally missed the mark here.
What we are commanded to keep is the Holy Tradition. sola scriptura is nowhere to be found in the Bible,but keeping the Holy Tradition IS! The reason why the Bible does not say that it is the only authority is because whatever we do we must INTERPRET. So ur "authority" is the mind then. To truly understand, we MUST have the CORRECT interpretations! If we do not..we get what we see today,20,000+sects who all interpret things differently and the non denom moral relativism in reaction to that.
1) Daniel was forced to be there, which BTW is a government house, NOT a temple.
2) The respect showed by Paul is part of the formal language to the authorities, who we are commanded to respect (Ro. 13:1). It's different from showing respect to a false religion (blasphemy).
3) The ark's images fulfil an ornamental role, and the jews were not bowing before the images, but before the presence of God. Catholics images are worshiped like Astart or Baal were.
4) self lacerations are not biblical, but pagan. This is just what Baal's priests did. Fasting, on the other hand, is a way of worshipping God by defeating carnal appetites, not hurting oneself.
It's amazing how catholics legitimize pagan practices by the name of "holy tradition". They twist Scripture to justify what is unjustifiable.
That's wrong Alex, Christ Himself justifies these things. Christ said they will wear hairshirts,ashes and fast if they would have known. It is truly blasphemous to accuse the Holy Orthodox Church, that Christ founded, of paganism. Christ also commmands us to Fast and to partake of the Eucharist at the Holy Orthodox Church.
The Orthodox Church is the only CHURCH that still fasts.
Christ didn't found Roman Catholic Church, the latter is a human invention, and has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Worshipping Mary and the saints, to mix christian doctrine with other religions, the papacy, the priesthood and almost every doctrine of Roman Catholic Church have been departed from biblical truth.
Alex, why don't you understand that I am not Roman Catholic? I am ORTHODOX.
When someone doesn't know the difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholic it is proof that they haven't studied the History of the Church and do not know about what they speak.
I'm sorry, I thought that you was using the word "orthodox" meaning "according to historical or traditional truth". I use to debate with catholics (in spanish) and they hold similar statements, I'm very sorry. Of course I know the difference.
Anyway, if both denominations think to have the real tradition, Why then are they different in some aspects? Why, if there's only one holy tradition, and both come from the same period, are they different?
They don't come from the same period. The Roman Catholic Church officially began after they left the Orthodox Church in 11th century. It is a historical fact that they altered the Creed to include Filiouque. Roman Catholics admit to this.Even secular scholars are aware the Orthodox Church is the original and unchanged Church.Later the RC adopted a "seed of faith that changes" doctrine yet Orthodox held the Faith. We are DRASTICALLY different.Our entire view of Salvation is completely different.
If the Roman Catholic Church was not founded by Christ? then what's d name of its founder? you said its a human invention? you just show your poor knowledge of History.. the moment you attack us, is already the fulfillment of the prophecy of Christ, that his follewers, "will be hated " (MT24:9) exactly, the same you people are doing by hating the Catholic Church
The orginal Catholic Church was just called the universal church, the church, or catholic church. It wasn't called the Roman Catholic Church becuase it was centered around Christ, and not the bishop of Rome.
You're right that scripture says Chritians will be hated, thats why Rome kept on persecuting the church during the inquisitions.
Yes I know what Catholic means, and I know Ignatious coined the word "Catholic." But the point I was trying to make is that just becuase it has the word Catholic, doesn't mean its the same Catholic Church thats centered around Rome. Yes the Catholic Church was persecuted by the Romans, but the Catholic Church back then was more like the evangelical churches are now. The Roman Catholic Church evolved over a long period of time, through hundreds of years oftraditions being exalted over scripture.
Congratulations you have just revived the Heresy of Nestorianism. This was condemned by a Holy Synod of the Church(as of the Holy Synods that canonized the Bible). He who believes the Virgin Mary only birthed Christ's human nature is ANAMETHA.
Nestorianism is a dangerous heresy. You're destroying the perfect union of the divine and human natures in Christ and sabotaging the fullness of the Incarnation and, by extension, the salvation of humanity!
You mistake when you believe that the synods canonized the Bible. The Bible was canonized by the Holy Spirit of God through the church practice. There were many canonized books lists that were made centuries before the synods. The latter only confirmed what the church had been stating since centuries. How do you explain that Tertullian speaks about Old and New Testament in the II and III centuries, that is far before the synods which you pointed out?
Holy Synods are the way the Holy Spirit showed us how to know doctrine. Read Acts 15 re 1st Holy Synod. Yes we did have many lists..many included the Epistles of St Clement,Shepherd of Hermes and Didache etc. The Orthodox Church canonized the Bible in response to a heretic and bc it did not disagree w the Holy Tradition and the Liturgy. What we are commanded to keep is the Holy Tradition. sola scriptura is nowhere to be found in Bible but keeping the Holy Tradition is! BTW Tertullian was heretic
I never saw Jesus legitimizing himself in "Holy Tradition". Rather, he always based his ministry in Scriptures. The Bible is full of warnings about false teachers who twist SCRIPTURE, not "Holy Tradition". Sola Scriptura is what the Bible teaches... tradition is valid only if it submits itself to the Bible, which is not the case in Roman Catholic Church, where the tradition arises itself above the Bible.
Actually, tradition is rebuked by Christ in Matthew 15.
First read 2 Thess 2:15! The word for Holy Tradition is PARADOSIS(means that which is passed down exactly as it was received). Christ condemned traditions of MEN and COMMANDED us to hold the Holy Tradition passed down from God! (2 Thess 2:15).Read 1st Corinth11:2 "I praise you brethren, that you remember me in all things and hold fast to the traditions [paradoseis] just as I delivered [paredoka,] them to you" and 11:23 "I received from the Lord that which I delivered [paredoka] to you"!
St Jude says it is"the Faith once delivered [paradotheise] unto the saints" (Jude 3). Its source is Christ, it was delivered personally by Him to the Apostles through all that He said and did, which if it all were all written down, "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written" (John 21:25). The Apostles delivered this knowldge to the entire Church, and the Church, being the repository of this treasure thus became "the pillar and ground of the Truth" (I Timothy 3:15).
The same verse (2 Tes. 2:15) means that the teaches (paradóseis) are the equal in their oral and written version ("whether by word of mouth or by letter from us"), that is to say, what the apostle taught them orally, he taught them likewise by epistle.
The verses which you quoted doesn't endorse a parallel teaching to the Scriptures (like Roman Catholic's ones). They simply say that what the apostles received, they delivered (paradóseis, taught) to church.
The Bible NEVER contradicts the Holy Tradition! The Bible never says it is all that was taught,in fact it says the opposite.There are many things that Christ did that the whole world could not contain it all if written down.You see, the Holy Tradition is ONLY thing taught..it encompasses the CORRECT interpretations! If you do not believe there are CORRECT interpretations then you have fallen prey to the RELATIVISTIC TRUTH of the non denom, who believe that ALL interpretations are equally true.
I actually believe there is one correct interpretation, but it is not the Roman Catholic one, that's sure. I never have said that there is no correct interpretation, that's false.
And actually, there are things which Jesus did that were not written, but these teachings are not precisely what you name "holy tradition". The latter is an accumulation of pagan practices mixed with some biblical verses out of context.
To "samthed": Word "παραδόσεις" means literally "deliveries", and your translation "tradition" comes from the latin "traditio", which means likewise "delivery". Now, the connotation which you give to "traditio" or "delivery" is quite different from the original one. To translate it "tradition" is a Roman Catholic trick to legitimize its twisted practices named "holy tradition".
Tradition came before the bible. the first book of the biblewas written around 60 AD. 30 years after the ascencion of Christ. where did the Christians based themselves during those 30 years? it is according to Apostles Tradition!!!! Paul said, "..maintain the traditions even as i delivered them to you" (1 Cor 11:2)
"Mknew...", it's clear that the apostles held a tradition, but it taught the same that the Scriptures! It wasn't a parallel teaching. The apostles captured the content of that tradition in their writings. What the quoted verses mean is that the church must keep the teachings delivered (paradóseis), not a tradition which is different from Scripture. It had nothing to do with what you name now "Holy tradition". That's a human invention, mixed with pagan beliefs.
By the way, you must be careful with sabelianism or patripassianism. If we take your statement seriously, we must conclude that in the cross not only was Jesus dying, but the Father and the Holy Spirit also.
yah! that is right! but that does not prove Mary really sinned. does having a Savior implies you sinned? Lets take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences.
(2) Forgive me I am not trying to be rude to you, but all I see in your posts is a lot of dodging, whilst the clear cut Scripture is not taken literally, and is instead, being replaced with assumptions about Mary's "sinless" nature before and after the birth of Christ. (Cont...)
(3) If you believe Mary could have said "I have not sinned." Then wouldn't this mean God is a liar? Scripture says if we claim to not have sinned we slander God as a liar. If Mary could claim to not have sinned then God is a liar. So which is it? Is God a liar? Or did Mary sin? "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."-1 John 1:10
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"-Romans 3:23 (Cont...)
(4) I can see why you think God made Mary sinless in the limited scenario you just posted, although, I don't get why you believe Mary was sinless and childless (see-Psalm 69:8), even after the birth of Christ. God is powerful enough to preserve Jesus' sinless nature in the womb without making Mary sinless. I don't know why that option should be thrown out by just the mere claim that there's only one way God the Father could have preserved Jesus' sinless nature. (Cont...)
5) "does having a Savior implies you sinned?"-MKnewmedia1
No, having Jesus as our Savior implies we sinned. He died on the cross for our sins, hence why we call Jesus our Savior. BTW, Adam is the perfect representative of the human race. We all sinned through Adam. Original sin is our sin, it's not something unfairly forced upon us. Adam fell and we ALL fell in him (Romans 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 45).
(6) "Lets take the second citation first"-MKnewmedia1
Well, I didn't see any Scripture citations coming from you backing the claims you made about Mary being born without original sin. Instead you made unsubstantiated claims and when others cited verses, you dodged the issue. If that's the way you're going to play ball, then I don't know if it's going to be fruitful conversing with you.
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The Orthodox Church does not hold a dogma that the Blessed Virgin did not sin. We do NOT hold a dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The reason why we don't is because we do not hold your HERETICAL view of Original Sin. You believe that we are responsible for Adams sin. That is not true. Ancestral Sin is the True teaching.Original Sin was based on a mistranslation of Scripture. You protestants are so confused, you believe God is SADISTIC and needs to be satisfied and you dont understand Salvation
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Oh droplets, how i pity you,. u just show how ignorant you are especially when it comes to GREEK manuscripts.. regarding PS 69:8. u just have to read the whole psalm 69. in verse 5. it says, "o God, you know my FOLLY, the WRONG things i have done" if It was Jesus, does it mean Jesus Sinned? oh my God. what a blasphemer.
Mary did not say " i have not sinned" so the verse you are saying (1 Jn1:10) does not fit at all. in the same way as Jesus, never said explicitly, "I AM GOD" your reasoning is a fallacy. howeverm the Bible also, never said, "MARY DID SIN"
Do not show your ignorance about the ancient Scriptures. Luke 1:28 says , "Hail, FULL OF GRACE" Mary therefore is Filled with grace. now. if Mary is full of grace, how will it prove she is sinless? Romans 6:14 says, "For SIN will have no dominion over you, ... for you are under GRACE" if a graced person cannot be dominated by sin. how much more would be MARY? who is FULL OF GRACE??
again, don't show a faulty knowledge of the scriptures. what u cited. Romans 3:23states " all sinned" if you will just look on the Original Scriptures, the greek word "pas" is used for the word "all" which means, "majority" take an example. Romans 15:14 says, "..you, my brothers..filled with all knowledge" in this part, "ALL" certainly does not mean every single one. If it did, the Romans, who had all knowledge, would have had the knowledge of God! did your pastor taught you that?
Even if this means ALL, nothing is 100% out of the possibilities for God. It's called a miracle. SHE certainly is a miracle any way you look at her. She is our spiritual mother. If not for her we'd never have known Jesus. The highest compliment you can give someone is to compliment his mother. Our Lord will not be too pleased with anyone who speaks ill of His mother.
You also state "If not for her we'd never have known Jesus." I have a problem with the implication of that statement. You see, it was no act or virtue of Mary that caused Jesus to be concieved or born. Therefore, it would be more appropriate to say that "Without God choosing to use Mary as his vessel, we may not have known Jesus". God has chosen many people for many purposes. But one does not say of, for example, the prophet Daniel, "Without Daniel, we'd never have known these prophecies."
The sin of Adam IS to be born OUT of the Grace of God, but just has God said by the Angel to Mary, "FULL OF GRACE" "Kejaritomen". So Mary, because she was going to be the Mother of our Lord Jesus, was born IN the Grace of God, not OUT of the Grace (sin of Adam) Can God DO that ? YES He can, HE is Allpowerfull, He is God.
Is that a Big deal for protestantism ?How can be? It´s a Big deal for satan because he hates THE WOMAN (MARY) Gen 3, and Rev 12.
Just curious, please tell me why did Jesus say there was none good but God in Mark 10:18. According to this verse Mary must be God for your claims to be true.
Also if Mary was sinless because she was born w/Grace, wouldn't that also mean I'm sinless. The bible says salvation was given to me before the world began (Titus 1:2). And if salvation was given to me before the world began, then wouldn't that mean I was born w/Grace. And if I was born w/Grace, wouldn't that mean I'm sinless?
2.) Titus 1:2 doesn´t say salvation was given to you, doesn´t say you were born w/Grace, It says God promised eternal life before the world began.Don´t twist it
3.) Bible YES says Mary is Full of Grace, Blessed among women.
4.) Bible says we are ALL born IN sin,(sin of Adam) that means OUT of Grace, not the case of Mary because she is FULL of Grace because God WANTED, not my problem neither yours, it is God desition.
The fact that she got blessed doesn't mean she was sinless and that we should offfer her prayers and special attention. Eternal life is salvation in reguards to titus 1:2. Again if God promised me Grace b/4 I was born, wouldn't that mean I'm sinless? Full of Grace doesn't mean sinless, Grace is unmerrited favor (Rom 11:6), therefore God didn't choose her based on anything she did. Full of Grace means that God chose her to give birth to the Christ, not that she was sinless.
That the problem with you regarding Mary. You says things that WE DON¨T BELIEVE.
WE DON¨T BELIEVE that Mary is sinless because of her own merits, or because something She Did. That´s not catholic doctrine. SHE IS SINLESS ONLY BECAUSE OF JESUSCRHIST´S MERITS. All Grace in us and in Mary is because of Jesus´s merits on the Cross,, to say what you say is to twist our doctrine about Mary.
The fact that she was blessed and Full of Grace are just the Expresion of God´s will to her.
God make her sinless because of THE FACT that God himself took flesh of her flesh, doesn´t say this FACT also anything to you? GOD became man and got in her womb, The one who created the whole and big Universe, GOT IN Mary´s womb.. SHE CANNOT BE ANY WOMAN,,sorry !!
If you compare God with Mary it is because YOUR God is too small, we can´t compare God with Mary, HE is unmeasurable, too big
YOu yourself is claimeing that the bible is explicit that Jesus is the only one without sin. NOW TELL ME!!! WHAT VERSE OF THE BIBLE PROVE YOUR CLAIM, THAT JESUS IS THE "ONLY ONE" WITHOUT SIN???
Excuse me.. understand first before you make a comment!! HAVE YOU READ MY WHOLE COMMENT!! I KNOW!! JESUS DID NOT SIN!! I KNOW THAT EVEN YOU WON'T SAY AT ALL. what i am just clarifying, is that , littleredbird(one of those who made a comment) states that mary sinned BECAUSE SHE FELT SAD. thus, I AM EMPHASIZING WHAT HE SAID. "DOes being sad MEANS you sinned?" as what he said? if that is so, therefore Jesus also sinned because he once felt sad, (JUST ASSUMING HIS CONCEPT) GOT IT?
JESUS DID NOT SIN. Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." EVERYONE ELSE IS A SINNER IN NEED OF A SAVIOR, INCLUDING MARY. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Wow, that's some strong delusion. (2 Thessalonians 2: 1-13)
1 John 1:8-10 says: 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
you're too fundamentalistic, Then if i am going to accept your "Concept" then tell me rather, "what kind of sin does a mongoloid does?" in every aspect, there are always exception in the Bible. Jesus himself is a True Man. does it mean, Jesus being a man also sinned? ofcourse not!!! if the new adam did not sin, it is appropriate to say, Mary the New Eve did not Sin.
MK, you are really good at divertings issues. We are discussing Mary not mongoloids! Mary was neither a mongoloid nor a baby, Jesus made the exception of Children himself! Mary was a normal sound person, but still a daughter of Adam.
why did those living creatures are REPEATING THE SAME PRAYERS ALL THE TIME? another fact i noticed, is that, you told me, if "She" (Mary) had no sin, she had NO REASON TO BE SAD.?? what an unbiblical attack you did!! does it mean BEING SAD already makes one having sin? then why WOULD JESUS WEPT OVER JERUSALEM? (LUKE 19:41) does it mean Jesus had sinned??
Mary was the mother of Jesus. She is NOT holy!!! She is just like you are me. She is a person! As the ten commandments say, thou shalt have NO other gods before me. and the secount commandment, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.... Meaning do NOT worship her! Worship ONLY GOD!!! Please rememeber there are TEN commandmends, not nine with the last turned into two. The secount cammandment is offten taken out by Catholics. Very sad.
There is really nothing to debate.Of course veneration of Mary is taught in the Bible. The Holy Spirit prophecied through Elizabeth that "all generations shall call thee Blessed"! If anything it shows that protestants who deny this are not considered the generations of the Church. Second point: The Mother of God interceded for all of us when at the wedding in Cana she implored Him and He said His time is not yet come but then listened to her intercession and He changed the water into wine!
Mary was blessed because she had the honor to be the earthly mother of our saviour, anyone can be blessed but that doesnt mean we are to be venerated. The biblical definition of church is not a theocratic organization, whose leader is person who claim to be infallible, dressed in royal clothes. The word church comes from the greek ekklesia, it means assembly, a group of people followers of Christ. Jesus said: because where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them..
Not in the name of the saints or Mary. Mary did not intercede for all humanity at Canan, she never implored to Jesus for a miracle, she merely stated: there is no wine
How did she not intercede for humanity? Because you say so? The fact is she interceded for humanity and Christ listened to her.With that said there is nothing left to debate.unless you do not believe the Bible(which the Orthodox Church canonized BTW). I'm sure youre aware that the Apostles commanded us to practice intercessory prayer for one another and it was Christ Himself that said He is the God of the Living and not the Dead.Saints are alive and intercede for us.Its incense before the Throne
little red birdy: i really pity you, as a matter of fact, what you are telling me areall unbiblical!! you are speaking without citing even a single verse from the Bible!! now, before i let my self answer you, give me your email!! and wait!! you say Catholics repeat SAME PRAYERS ALL THE TIME. Pls. Don't blame us! were just following what is done in Heaven!! very clear, the bible states, "the four living creatures..DAY AND NIGHT THEY NEVER CEASE TO SAY. Holyholy holy" (REv 4:8) now answer me.
Bill. Don't take the meaning having been graced out of context. Since I also acepted Christ as my savior, I also have been graced. Grace comes from the Lord and it is freely givin.Mary was in fact the mother of Jesus Christ, the man. Not the Son of God, who lowered himself to save. John 8: 57-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
william proved his point early on and i think its ufnny how turretin tried to keep changing subjects. william won hands down. you should see hsi update on this to see how confused turretfinfan was. can't wait for the marian dogmas to be debated
"I think his declaration that Mary shouldn't be called "The Mother of God" is boarderline heresy." Glorthac
He would do well to read Calvinist theologian Dr. Charles Hodge on the subject. Hodge proves decisively that it is proper to do so. She is not the mother of Christ's deity of course but Christ is both God and Man in one person. You can refer to Him by either nature. He can be called God or man.
Hence it is proper to call Mary the mother of God refering to the Jesus Christ the godman.
she is the mother (as in, womb) of Christ, not the Father. therefore, she should not be called 'Mother of God'. although Christ is one with the Father, she did not generate/form the Father in her womb. to imply she did so is to venerate her above the Almighty.
anyway, you can call her whatever you like, she can't hear you, Christ is the only interceder.
Thanks bro! Couldn't have said it better myself. Also, we are not worshipping Mary or even addressing her. Of course she couldn't hear us even if we were. Paul, Peter, Abraham, none of the dead hear us. God bless.
You are not worshipping or even addressing Mary? An average Catholic talks to Mary more than will ever talk to God! Churches are built in her honour, statues of every kind are placed in places of honour in Basilicas & nomaly above statues of the dead Jesus on the cross! Prayers are offered to her & in her Litugy & in Glories of Mary all sorts of titles including that of the saviour are given to her! Does that not concern you that it amounts of worship? Veneration actually means worship!
No veneration does not mean worship. Study harder open your mind learn the Truth. If it does.. then explain Acts 19,why didthey rub handkerchiefs on the apostle and were healed.Was it the handkerchief that they honored that healed them or was it Christ? That is veneration.There are many instances of Christ working thru objects in the Bible,for instance, by touching Elisha's holy relics, a dead man was resurrected,1 year after Elisha had died.Was it Elisha's dead body that he thanked? Veneration
Just open your dictionary, dear! Where on earth do you get the idea that people were "honouring" handkerchiefs? The bible is very clear on what happened in the Book of Acts 19 and why!!! There is no of Paul veneration there. God's miracles are not veneration even in the case of Elisha.
The problem is protestants do not understand what veneration means. Tell me when you touch the apostle with a napkin and touch someone with it and they are healed..who healed them? Who do you honor and thank?Is it the miraculous object, the apostle, or Christ?It is Christ.That is veneration.BTW I'm not Roman catholic I'm ORTHODOX.We have a deeper understanding of the faith as we see God everywhere and venerate Him there. Thanks.
What? Do you mean you have a different meaning of veneration? Where in the Scriptures does God commands to "venerate" saints? For heavens sake, I have seen many a miracle but I have never "venerated" those God chose to make the miracles, is that so difficult to understand? IT IS ONLY GOD TO BE THANKED AND WORSHIPPED!
How are so Sure!! that an average Catholic talks to Mary than ever talk to God? then explain me: Why catholics always pray "Through Christ our Lord?" come on!! show me your references from the bible!! and i'll show you your wrong!!
I have been around that fake Church for quite a time. People "pray" the rosary more than any other prayer. Actually when a catholic does not chant the rosary, that catholic does not know how to pray!!!! They bless in the name of Mary, swear in the name of Mary, etc. Why bury your head in the sand, just look around.
How true it is , that Liars are "sons of the Devil" (John 8:44) LIKE YOU BULYABLIVE. in what time, what place, what context, HAVE YOU HEARD THAT WE CATHOLICS BLESS IN THE NAME OF MARY??? WHERE?? YOURE SUCH A BIG LIAR!! JUST LIKE YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL!!! PROVE ME WHEN! AND WHERE IT HAPPENED!! if that is so? THEN WHY WOULD CATHOLIC PRIESTS ALWAYS ENDS OUR MASS BY BLESSING US IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT? WHY WILL A CATHOLIC PRIEST BLESS US LIKE THAT? IF WE USE MARY'S NAME? LIAR!!
oh really? how i pity you. you dont really know the Bible. i quote some passage of the bible (Not from my neighbor) i read JOHN 7:17, "If anyone is to do God's will, he will know whether the TEACHING is from God" what Jesus is emphasizing, is the "teaching" (And not a quote from a neighbor) why did Jesus said this,? as Paul testified, "For there must be FACTIONS among you.." (1 Cor 11:19)
Funny that you are now appeal to the Bible which you don't even believe in!
Where does Jesus teach that to reach Him one should pass through His mother?
How do you confirm that the teachings such as Purgatory, confessing to priests, Mary mediatrix, Immaculately conceived, assumed into heaven come from God?
Where do you get papacy in the God's word?
Where do get the teaching that Mary was sinless?
Factions among you indeed! Yet no other Church boasts of "oneness" than Yours!!!
See? it is clear, that in th True Church there are some Factions!! (which may include your neighbor's knowledge) now, the question is, IN WHAT OFFICIAL TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH says that we must be bless in the name of Mary? give me at least a NAME of a Catholic Priest who blesses in the name of Mary!! that you may be justified. PLS READ THE SCRIPTURES. AND QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE (NOT FROM ONE'S NEIGHBOR)
It is actually simple, just by watching a person's real priorities. When Pope JPII was shot, while in ambulance, he was NOT praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus, over & over he was saying "Mary, my mother"! The rosary - 50 hails marys is the heart of catholic prayers in families!
and so? i cant see anything wrong with what Pope JP2 ? get your bible and tell me wat specific verse did he contradicted? i rily rily pity you!! you are just, but an another fulfillment of wat is written "These People blashpheme all that THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND" (JUDE 10)
MK, I am not suprised that you don't see "anything wrong" with your beloved Pope replaced God Almighty with Mary.
2 Cor. 4:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not less the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them."
And so are you, it is clear when the bible said, "These epeople blaspheme all that they do not understand" (Jude 1:10) take a little logic (if you have a common sense) whenever you look towards a painting of da vinci and u began to be amazed at it, will you praise the PAINTING ITSELF? or Da Vinci? definitely, if we praise (or call) Mary, we simply Praise God Himself who is the Creator of Mary.
Deut. 4:15 "Take you therefore good head to yourself; for you saw no manner of form on the day that the Lord spoke to you in Horebe out of the mists of the fire, less you corrupt yourselves and make you a graven image, the similitute of any figure, the likeness of male or female."
Ex. 20:4 "You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of anthing that IS IN HEAVEN above or is in the earth beneath,... You sha
catholicism is not christian!catholicism is an extension of the roman empire,mitraism,paganism,sun worship,satanism disguise of christianity!waste of time talking or listening to brainwashed catholic apologists that dont even know their own history.
antivatican1 1 month ago
Does william ever answer a direct question without saying" I dont understand the question" ~~ or back tracking and saying" I never said that "
I listened to him calling the Dividing Line & Dr White first off asked him to demonstrate what another RC apologist could not do it a debate with him ~ william simply avoided the question & continued to change the topic & spoke over Dr white all the time ~ Dr White destroyed him on his show ~ & even had to mute him to get a point across ~ some apologist
glizag 6 months ago
Albrecht's use of terms is equivocal and he constantly relies on such fallacies as "begging the question" and special pleading.
eric2768 8 months ago
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is dead, or "sleeping" (as our Lord puts it many times), and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. Where in scripture is the phrase "mother of God" ????? You look with reverence on Mary when you should be glorifying God for the work He accomplished in her.
loveYehoshua 10 months ago
@loveYehoshua I personally would say she is alive with Christ, but we play to Christ, not Mary!
Itrytotestify 10 months ago
@loveYehoshua The fact remains: God could have chosen to descend from heaven already in the flesh, yet he chose to be born through Mary.
Hitononasubi 9 months ago
@Hitononasubi GOD couldn't not. Not if he was to be made the Son of Man and not if he wished to "be tempted in every way we are tempted"...
nicodemous52 8 months ago
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is "sleeping" (as our Lord puts it many times), and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. Where in scripture is the phrase "mother of God" ????? You look with reverence on Mary when you should be glorifying God for the work He accomplished in her.
loveYehoshua 10 months ago
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is "sleeping" (as our Lord puts it many times), and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. You are praying to a dead person that CANNOT HEAR YOU!!! Where in scripture is the phrase "mother of God" ?????
loveYehoshua 10 months ago
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is "sleeping" (as our Lord puts it many times), and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. You are praying to a dead person that CANNOT HEAR YOU!!!
loveYehoshua 10 months ago
Mary is a dead sinner. Christians are to pray to God ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Period. When you pray to a dead sinner, you have taken your eyes off of God. Mary is sleeping and awaiting the ressurection just like all the rest of the dead saints in Christ. You are praying to a dead person that CANNOT HEAR YOU!!!
loveYehoshua 10 months ago
@loveYehoshua Matthew 22:32 says "I am the God of the dead not the living" we see in Mark 9:4 that Moses and Elijah appeared to the apostles and were next to Jesus. I thought they were dead? Dead in the body, not the soul. Hebrews 12:1 says "we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses." the saints in Heaven are the saints in Heaven. Also, Mary is righteous so her prayers availeth much(james5:16) so it is good to ask her to pray for us.
dis00612 8 months ago
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8Gerrardinho 1 year ago
Mary full of grace is nowhere in the bible. Who taught you greek? Look in John 1:16, THAT is divine grace. Mary is not mentioned to being full of grace anywhere in the bible. Secondly, "Hail" in the 1611 King james bible is a 17th century greeting, not a form of angelic veneration lol.
Thirdly Mary herself gave a SIN OFFERING in Luke 2:24 as was custom in Leviticus 12:6-8. She is conceived with original sin (Gal 4:4). I can post way more. but yes you guys worship her. venerate. same thing.
BindingMazzaroth 1 year ago
@BindingMazzaroth To be fair, Jesus himself was also baptized, and he was not a sinner. Mary could have given the offering out of humility or tradition.
7dolor 1 year ago
William stood his ground, both debaters brought good objections and defenses. nobody really "owned" anybody
bolatluver29 1 year ago
No, the Bible doesn't. Neither does it condemn it. What of it ? It is ahistorical to expect a first century body of documents to satisfy the questions that arise for later orthodoxies; Catholicism & Calvinism both have roots in the various forms of first-century Christian discipleship, but neither of them is identical with first-century Christianity; partly because first-century Christianity was not itself unified. To expect the NT to be judge of later questions is ridiculous.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 year ago
what do all the cats have to say about the prophecies of Fatima ? How can you deny the eucharist when hosts (pieces of bread) HAVE BLED HUMAN BLOOD AND TURNED INTO HUMAN HEART TISSUS ... they will live in incest their entire lives and deny GOD while they say they serve hiim .. I guess that guy named Jesus was right when he said FEW ARE SAVED ... owned
PerfectCharity 1 year ago
No human is worthy of any amount of veneration or worship because we are all sinners (Psalm 14:3, Romans 3:23); we are to worship God and serve Him only (Matthew 4:10); and God will not give His Glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11).
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
After listening to this debate ~ I conclude that Turretinfan destroyed Williams arguments.
Its clear that this Marian dogma alone is of fantasy origin, and is of no consequence in order to come to Christ and get Saved, its more of a hindrance to Salvation rather than a help.
Its interesting also the word Veneration can also be interchanged with the word Worship, and we are only to worship God.
I can clearly see that Catholicism is lacking and operates on false hopes and fantasy doctrines.
glizag 1 year ago
Man Turretinfan owned that guy.
patrckhh20 1 year ago
No person should be worshipping Mary. Only God gets worship. Mary does deserve respect.
DrStevenz 2 years ago 2
@DrStevenz
If worship means the honour fitting God alone, & respect means an inferior honour such as creatures may receive because of their relation to God - IOW, a form of respect - then there is no difference between your position and the Catholic one. The only difference between honouring a servant of God on earth, & the same person once in heaven, is the "location". A Saint in heaven or on earth - Mary, say - is nothing w/o Christ .
The words matter less than what's meant by them.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 year ago
@DrStevenz nobody here asserted that she does
bolatluver29 1 year ago
it says honer your mother and father not eveyones should we honer hitlers mother and father no . i do honer her but not worship her
beingther 2 years ago
it's amazing that you want to be proud to speak Greek and think that Rome is the Church of God when if you actually did your history then you'd know that Greek and Rome whether the big ones in following Zeus the god of all creation in their eyes and to know that Iesous is a form of saying son of Zeus. To know the facts of your own religions history would do you much good unless yo know the truth and still spread lies.
anonymousnamealso 2 years ago
Its Mary Mary Mary ~ Jesus is the Saviour not Mary wakey wakey
glizag 2 years ago
Jesus was 100%man and 100% God.God the Son is eternal,where as their was a beginning to Jesus the man,this making Mary the mother of Jesus,instead of the mother of God.
CBALLEN 2 years ago
Malechi Martin,a R.C.C.EXOCIST,has been qouted as saying that Satan is protected by the R.C.C.He is dead now,but told of Homosexual acts being preformed during Satanic rituals in the Vatican.He wrote many books about the R.C.C,but he put them is fiction form,he also was interveiwed by Coast to Coast radio.
CBALLEN 2 years ago
When it is says of Mary that all will call her blessed,it does mean we are to venerated her,we are to agree that yes,Mary was blessed by God.Just like if you said all people will call me luckey because I won a million dollars. Like man,that guy was luckey everyone says he was luckey.
CBALLEN 2 years ago
It all boils down to human reason...the Bible does NOT teach veneration of Mary...Mary's 'fiat' indeed! What about Noah's fiat? If he hadn't 'consented' the human race would have ended!
catholicexodus 2 years ago
Where does the Bible says GOD IS TRINITY ??? It doesn`t right?,, But you and I know.. IT IS BIBLICLA,,
Blesses
mjmenjivar 2 years ago
True, BUT the difference is the Trinity is reasonably inferred, not a stretch at all, as is the deity of Christ. The veneration of Mary and the papacy miserably fail in this area.
catholicexodus 2 years ago
"reasonably inferred"?
I don`t think so How can God become man how can this three persons be ONE at the same time? It is a Mistery of Faith, you and I believe it because we have FAITH. Same about what we believe about Mary. Veneration of Mary DOESN`T mean She is God, or we ADORE HER, it is a higher respect for the woman who gave birth the SON OF MAN; She gave Birth to God (JESUS).
All what we believe about Mary, comes in the Bible from the Genesis til Revelation
A COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING !!
mjmenjivar 2 years ago 2
The Bible TEACH the veneration of Mary!! :)
tambuyaat 2 years ago
The Bible teaches the veneration of Mary...in spite of the fact that no one says it and no one does it...quite a feat!
catholicexodus 2 years ago 2
read the original scriptures, have a degree in the bible, learn to speak and understand greek, if you do that, you would testify that the veneration of Mary is taught in the Bible :)
tambuyaat 2 years ago
Mary was just a human being like everyone else. to deny she was in need of Gods salvation is to deny the message of the gospel IE - "Justification by faith alone". Thank the Lord that He came to redeem us including his earthly mother Mary.
I envy Mary in as much as she spent much of her life with the Lord and in this sence she is blessed. however It is Jesus and Jesus alone who redeemed us and it is on him we should put the TOTALITY of our trust. The bible clearly forbids worsip of others!
BlueSkiesYonder 2 years ago
If I was debating GNR head ~ I would ask him this Qestion.
Q. If you contend that we are to give honour to Mary, what form should this honour take in actuality.
I would be interested to hear the responses to this question.
glizag 2 years ago
Why should we venerate Mary just because she was blessed by God? I'm blessed by God, does that mean we should venerate me?
What GNRHeretic refuses to admit is that Luke 1:48 is a statement of fact, and not a command to offer prayers to her. What the heretic wont admit is that when Mary said all generations will call her blessed, she wasn't commanding people to offer prayers to her and give her special attention at church.
CASSMAN777 2 years ago
Bible also says that the King of Israel had a Mother, right ?
Do you know that the Bible says the Mother´s King of Israel is sitting in a Throne at the right hand of the King?
Do you know that Paul said everything of Israel´s old covenant becomes REAL for us in the NEW covenant ???
mjmenjivar 2 years ago
Where in the bible does it say this?
CASSMAN777 2 years ago
1st Kings 2:19 "Bath-sheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand"
Matt 20:23 "Jesus said.....to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father."
mjmenjivar 2 years ago
The problem with this line of reasoning (Mary is Queen Mother, Peter is Prime Minister Eliakim) is that the NT NEVER affirms this. Numerous much-less-significant details (the amount of money Jesus was betrayed for?) are referenced but not the 'blessed mother' nor the 'holy father'? Come on, now!
catholicexodus 2 years ago
Are you an exegete to say NT never affirms this? probably you just know nothing in reading the Bible.. ask first before you oppose :P i pity you catholicexodus
tambuyaat 2 years ago
Mary is "blessed" because of who God is -- not because of who Mary is. Of course she is blessed -- because of God's pleasure in choosing her, and not other reason inherent in Mary. Mary's role is no doubt very significant, because God CHOOSE her for that role. Notice the Magi do not venerate Mary -- nor is veneration of Mary repeated elsewhere in the NT: "On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him." --Matthew 2:10-12
dancarollo 2 years ago
Mary had a minor role?! She only gave flesh to the Son of God. I mean, that's no big deal or anything. /sarcasm
wintersdemise 2 years ago
The commandments say honor your mother and father. Jesus said Mary was are mother. Therefore we must honor his and our mother. Its basic logic lol! Awesome comment!
RockyBalboa211 2 years ago
Really? When did Jesus say Mary is your mother?
bulyabalive 2 years ago
Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of his children, and his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a truly divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother in a personal sense.
RockyBalboa211 2 years ago
We simply examine the Scripture:
"John 19:26-27 "When Jesus therefore saw His mother & the disciple standing by, whom He loved, He said to His mother, 'Woman, behold your son!' Then said He to the disciple, 'Behold your mother!' And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home."
How do come to the conclusion that Jesus gave Mary to all of his children in these 2 verses & how do you know that Jesus' words in this particular case were "truly divine purpose" - mother of all?
bulyabalive 2 years ago
Jesus was stateing that to all his people John was an example on how everyone should take her as a mother into their own homes.
RockyBalboa211 2 years ago
This is what you are tell me but it is not what is in the verses. There is not even a hint that John is an "example" of all believers!
In another instance in Mat. 16:19 Jesus said to Peter "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven...." Should we conclude that Peter was an example of every follower of Jesus to have the keys of heaven?
I believe that Bible interpretes Bible, can you give us reference on these two instances?
bulyabalive 2 years ago
William did an excellent job and totally won this debate. Personally i find Turritan's comments on Mary being "unimportant" ect. to be totally offensive, his use of Hebrews 7 to justify his denial of Mary as Mother of God is also laughable since it is clear that what the author is saying is that Christ had no finite beginning that he always existed and that Melchizedek was made to be a type of Christ by having an unknown ancestry. TFan totally missed the mark here.
OneTrueChurch 2 years ago
What we are commanded to keep is the Holy Tradition. sola scriptura is nowhere to be found in the Bible,but keeping the Holy Tradition IS! The reason why the Bible does not say that it is the only authority is because whatever we do we must INTERPRET. So ur "authority" is the mind then. To truly understand, we MUST have the CORRECT interpretations! If we do not..we get what we see today,20,000+sects who all interpret things differently and the non denom moral relativism in reaction to that.
samthed 2 years ago
With regard to the sects, I want to know the list of them, if you may show it.
I agree with you, we must have the correct interpretation, but the latter can't contradict the very text!
If we read the Bible we'll never find a justification for the twisted beliefs and practices in Roman Catholic Church today!
The Pope attending to mosques, kissing the Coran; bowing before an image of Mary? People hurting themselves to obtain favours from a dead person?
Where are such outrages in the Bible?
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
1) Pope attending Mosque? wats wrong? Daniel (Man of God) remained at Nebuchadnezzar's court (Pagan)
DAniel 2:49
2) kissing koran? dats a sign of respect. Paul onced called Festus, a non-christian as "excellent' (ACTS 25:25)
3) bowing before an image? Jews worship before the ARK, this ark consists of 2 cherubim images (1 chr. 16:4)
4) People hurting themselves? so wat? wen DAvid repent, he hurt himself "by Fasting" (2 Sam12:16)
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
To Mknew... in response to:
1) Daniel was forced to be there, which BTW is a government house, NOT a temple.
2) The respect showed by Paul is part of the formal language to the authorities, who we are commanded to respect (Ro. 13:1). It's different from showing respect to a false religion (blasphemy).
3) The ark's images fulfil an ornamental role, and the jews were not bowing before the images, but before the presence of God. Catholics images are worshiped like Astart or Baal were.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
It continues...
4) self lacerations are not biblical, but pagan. This is just what Baal's priests did. Fasting, on the other hand, is a way of worshipping God by defeating carnal appetites, not hurting oneself.
It's amazing how catholics legitimize pagan practices by the name of "holy tradition". They twist Scripture to justify what is unjustifiable.
Please, stop it, really.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
That's wrong Alex, Christ Himself justifies these things. Christ said they will wear hairshirts,ashes and fast if they would have known. It is truly blasphemous to accuse the Holy Orthodox Church, that Christ founded, of paganism. Christ also commmands us to Fast and to partake of the Eucharist at the Holy Orthodox Church.
The Orthodox Church is the only CHURCH that still fasts.
samthed 2 years ago
Christ didn't found Roman Catholic Church, the latter is a human invention, and has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Worshipping Mary and the saints, to mix christian doctrine with other religions, the papacy, the priesthood and almost every doctrine of Roman Catholic Church have been departed from biblical truth.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
Alex, why don't you understand that I am not Roman Catholic? I am ORTHODOX.
When someone doesn't know the difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholic it is proof that they haven't studied the History of the Church and do not know about what they speak.
samthed 2 years ago
I'm sorry, I thought that you was using the word "orthodox" meaning "according to historical or traditional truth". I use to debate with catholics (in spanish) and they hold similar statements, I'm very sorry. Of course I know the difference.
Anyway, if both denominations think to have the real tradition, Why then are they different in some aspects? Why, if there's only one holy tradition, and both come from the same period, are they different?
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
They don't come from the same period. The Roman Catholic Church officially began after they left the Orthodox Church in 11th century. It is a historical fact that they altered the Creed to include Filiouque. Roman Catholics admit to this.Even secular scholars are aware the Orthodox Church is the original and unchanged Church.Later the RC adopted a "seed of faith that changes" doctrine yet Orthodox held the Faith. We are DRASTICALLY different.Our entire view of Salvation is completely different.
samthed 2 years ago
If the Roman Catholic Church was not founded by Christ? then what's d name of its founder? you said its a human invention? you just show your poor knowledge of History.. the moment you attack us, is already the fulfillment of the prophecy of Christ, that his follewers, "will be hated " (MT24:9) exactly, the same you people are doing by hating the Catholic Church
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
The orginal Catholic Church was just called the universal church, the church, or catholic church. It wasn't called the Roman Catholic Church becuase it was centered around Christ, and not the bishop of Rome.
You're right that scripture says Chritians will be hated, thats why Rome kept on persecuting the church during the inquisitions.
CASSMAN777 2 years ago
For your knowledge "Catholic" means "Universal".
St Ingacious Loyola called the Church "Catholic" in the 1st century
Rome persecuted the Catholic Church for 3 centuries until Constatine said no more and they stop persecuting them
You have not Idea of what the Inquisition is, and you just believe the twisted history that AntiCrist has invented about it
The Church is NOT called "roman" you just say it despectively, it is called "Catholic Church" "Universal Church"
Read History
mjmenjivar 2 years ago
Yes I know what Catholic means, and I know Ignatious coined the word "Catholic." But the point I was trying to make is that just becuase it has the word Catholic, doesn't mean its the same Catholic Church thats centered around Rome. Yes the Catholic Church was persecuted by the Romans, but the Catholic Church back then was more like the evangelical churches are now. The Roman Catholic Church evolved over a long period of time, through hundreds of years oftraditions being exalted over scripture.
CASSMAN777 2 years ago
Popes HAVE called the hideous apostate church 'Roman'. Perhaps not Roman Catholic Church but definitely Roman (also the pontiff is called Roman)
catholicexodus 2 years ago
To be called Roman is something to be proud of.. moreover, Paul testified, those who are in the Church of ROME are God's beloved ones :P (Romans 1:7)
tambuyaat 2 years ago 2
AgApE010:
Congratulations you have just revived the Heresy of Nestorianism. This was condemned by a Holy Synod of the Church(as of the Holy Synods that canonized the Bible). He who believes the Virgin Mary only birthed Christ's human nature is ANAMETHA.
Nestorianism is a dangerous heresy. You're destroying the perfect union of the divine and human natures in Christ and sabotaging the fullness of the Incarnation and, by extension, the salvation of humanity!
samthed 2 years ago
You mistake when you believe that the synods canonized the Bible. The Bible was canonized by the Holy Spirit of God through the church practice. There were many canonized books lists that were made centuries before the synods. The latter only confirmed what the church had been stating since centuries. How do you explain that Tertullian speaks about Old and New Testament in the II and III centuries, that is far before the synods which you pointed out?
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
Holy Synods are the way the Holy Spirit showed us how to know doctrine. Read Acts 15 re 1st Holy Synod. Yes we did have many lists..many included the Epistles of St Clement,Shepherd of Hermes and Didache etc. The Orthodox Church canonized the Bible in response to a heretic and bc it did not disagree w the Holy Tradition and the Liturgy. What we are commanded to keep is the Holy Tradition. sola scriptura is nowhere to be found in Bible but keeping the Holy Tradition is! BTW Tertullian was heretic
samthed 2 years ago
I never saw Jesus legitimizing himself in "Holy Tradition". Rather, he always based his ministry in Scriptures. The Bible is full of warnings about false teachers who twist SCRIPTURE, not "Holy Tradition". Sola Scriptura is what the Bible teaches... tradition is valid only if it submits itself to the Bible, which is not the case in Roman Catholic Church, where the tradition arises itself above the Bible.
Actually, tradition is rebuked by Christ in Matthew 15.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
First read 2 Thess 2:15! The word for Holy Tradition is PARADOSIS(means that which is passed down exactly as it was received). Christ condemned traditions of MEN and COMMANDED us to hold the Holy Tradition passed down from God! (2 Thess 2:15).Read 1st Corinth11:2 "I praise you brethren, that you remember me in all things and hold fast to the traditions [paradoseis] just as I delivered [paredoka,] them to you" and 11:23 "I received from the Lord that which I delivered [paredoka] to you"!
samthed 2 years ago
St Jude says it is"the Faith once delivered [paradotheise] unto the saints" (Jude 3). Its source is Christ, it was delivered personally by Him to the Apostles through all that He said and did, which if it all were all written down, "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written" (John 21:25). The Apostles delivered this knowldge to the entire Church, and the Church, being the repository of this treasure thus became "the pillar and ground of the Truth" (I Timothy 3:15).
samthed 2 years ago
The same verse (2 Tes. 2:15) means that the teaches (paradóseis) are the equal in their oral and written version ("whether by word of mouth or by letter from us"), that is to say, what the apostle taught them orally, he taught them likewise by epistle.
The verses which you quoted doesn't endorse a parallel teaching to the Scriptures (like Roman Catholic's ones). They simply say that what the apostles received, they delivered (paradóseis, taught) to church.
Stop twisting Scriptures, please.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
The Bible NEVER contradicts the Holy Tradition! The Bible never says it is all that was taught,in fact it says the opposite.There are many things that Christ did that the whole world could not contain it all if written down.You see, the Holy Tradition is ONLY thing taught..it encompasses the CORRECT interpretations! If you do not believe there are CORRECT interpretations then you have fallen prey to the RELATIVISTIC TRUTH of the non denom, who believe that ALL interpretations are equally true.
samthed 2 years ago
I actually believe there is one correct interpretation, but it is not the Roman Catholic one, that's sure. I never have said that there is no correct interpretation, that's false.
And actually, there are things which Jesus did that were not written, but these teachings are not precisely what you name "holy tradition". The latter is an accumulation of pagan practices mixed with some biblical verses out of context.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
To "samthed": Word "παραδόσεις" means literally "deliveries", and your translation "tradition" comes from the latin "traditio", which means likewise "delivery". Now, the connotation which you give to "traditio" or "delivery" is quite different from the original one. To translate it "tradition" is a Roman Catholic trick to legitimize its twisted practices named "holy tradition".
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
Tradition came before the bible. the first book of the biblewas written around 60 AD. 30 years after the ascencion of Christ. where did the Christians based themselves during those 30 years? it is according to Apostles Tradition!!!! Paul said, "..maintain the traditions even as i delivered them to you" (1 Cor 11:2)
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
"Mknew...", it's clear that the apostles held a tradition, but it taught the same that the Scriptures! It wasn't a parallel teaching. The apostles captured the content of that tradition in their writings. What the quoted verses mean is that the church must keep the teachings delivered (paradóseis), not a tradition which is different from Scripture. It had nothing to do with what you name now "Holy tradition". That's a human invention, mixed with pagan beliefs.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
Comment removed
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
By the way, you must be careful with sabelianism or patripassianism. If we take your statement seriously, we must conclude that in the cross not only was Jesus dying, but the Father and the Holy Spirit also.
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
"Are you really sure that Mary sinned? "-MKnewmedia1
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What was Jesus saving Mary from when she called Jesus her Saviour in Luke 1:47?
"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."-Luke 1:47
Droplets77 2 years ago 2
yah! that is right! but that does not prove Mary really sinned. does having a Savior implies you sinned? Lets take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences.
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
(2) Forgive me I am not trying to be rude to you, but all I see in your posts is a lot of dodging, whilst the clear cut Scripture is not taken literally, and is instead, being replaced with assumptions about Mary's "sinless" nature before and after the birth of Christ. (Cont...)
Droplets77 2 years ago
(3) If you believe Mary could have said "I have not sinned." Then wouldn't this mean God is a liar? Scripture says if we claim to not have sinned we slander God as a liar. If Mary could claim to not have sinned then God is a liar. So which is it? Is God a liar? Or did Mary sin? "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."-1 John 1:10
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"-Romans 3:23 (Cont...)
Droplets77 2 years ago
(4) I can see why you think God made Mary sinless in the limited scenario you just posted, although, I don't get why you believe Mary was sinless and childless (see-Psalm 69:8), even after the birth of Christ. God is powerful enough to preserve Jesus' sinless nature in the womb without making Mary sinless. I don't know why that option should be thrown out by just the mere claim that there's only one way God the Father could have preserved Jesus' sinless nature. (Cont...)
Droplets77 2 years ago
5) "does having a Savior implies you sinned?"-MKnewmedia1
No, having Jesus as our Savior implies we sinned. He died on the cross for our sins, hence why we call Jesus our Savior. BTW, Adam is the perfect representative of the human race. We all sinned through Adam. Original sin is our sin, it's not something unfairly forced upon us. Adam fell and we ALL fell in him (Romans 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 45).
Droplets77 2 years ago
(6) "Lets take the second citation first"-MKnewmedia1
Well, I didn't see any Scripture citations coming from you backing the claims you made about Mary being born without original sin. Instead you made unsubstantiated claims and when others cited verses, you dodged the issue. If that's the way you're going to play ball, then I don't know if it's going to be fruitful conversing with you.
Droplets77 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The Orthodox Church does not hold a dogma that the Blessed Virgin did not sin. We do NOT hold a dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The reason why we don't is because we do not hold your HERETICAL view of Original Sin. You believe that we are responsible for Adams sin. That is not true. Ancestral Sin is the True teaching.Original Sin was based on a mistranslation of Scripture. You protestants are so confused, you believe God is SADISTIC and needs to be satisfied and you dont understand Salvation
samthed 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Oh droplets, how i pity you,. u just show how ignorant you are especially when it comes to GREEK manuscripts.. regarding PS 69:8. u just have to read the whole psalm 69. in verse 5. it says, "o God, you know my FOLLY, the WRONG things i have done" if It was Jesus, does it mean Jesus Sinned? oh my God. what a blasphemer.
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Mary did not say " i have not sinned" so the verse you are saying (1 Jn1:10) does not fit at all. in the same way as Jesus, never said explicitly, "I AM GOD" your reasoning is a fallacy. howeverm the Bible also, never said, "MARY DID SIN"
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Do not show your ignorance about the ancient Scriptures. Luke 1:28 says , "Hail, FULL OF GRACE" Mary therefore is Filled with grace. now. if Mary is full of grace, how will it prove she is sinless? Romans 6:14 says, "For SIN will have no dominion over you, ... for you are under GRACE" if a graced person cannot be dominated by sin. how much more would be MARY? who is FULL OF GRACE??
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
again, don't show a faulty knowledge of the scriptures. what u cited. Romans 3:23states " all sinned" if you will just look on the Original Scriptures, the greek word "pas" is used for the word "all" which means, "majority" take an example. Romans 15:14 says, "..you, my brothers..filled with all knowledge" in this part, "ALL" certainly does not mean every single one. If it did, the Romans, who had all knowledge, would have had the knowledge of God! did your pastor taught you that?
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
"Romans 3:23states "all sinned""
Even if this means ALL, nothing is 100% out of the possibilities for God. It's called a miracle. SHE certainly is a miracle any way you look at her. She is our spiritual mother. If not for her we'd never have known Jesus. The highest compliment you can give someone is to compliment his mother. Our Lord will not be too pleased with anyone who speaks ill of His mother.
MaximusArurealius 2 years ago
You also state "If not for her we'd never have known Jesus." I have a problem with the implication of that statement. You see, it was no act or virtue of Mary that caused Jesus to be concieved or born. Therefore, it would be more appropriate to say that "Without God choosing to use Mary as his vessel, we may not have known Jesus". God has chosen many people for many purposes. But one does not say of, for example, the prophet Daniel, "Without Daniel, we'd never have known these prophecies."
jdw99 2 years ago
Theologian you are not.
MaximusArurealius 2 years ago
Context determines what "all' means. Look at Romans 5 (sin passing on all of Adam's descendants)
youneedhim777 2 years ago
"All sinned" means Jesus also sin? nop
The sin of Adam IS to be born OUT of the Grace of God, but just has God said by the Angel to Mary, "FULL OF GRACE" "Kejaritomen". So Mary, because she was going to be the Mother of our Lord Jesus, was born IN the Grace of God, not OUT of the Grace (sin of Adam) Can God DO that ? YES He can, HE is Allpowerfull, He is God.
Is that a Big deal for protestantism ?How can be? It´s a Big deal for satan because he hates THE WOMAN (MARY) Gen 3, and Rev 12.
mjmenjivar 2 years ago
Just curious, please tell me why did Jesus say there was none good but God in Mark 10:18. According to this verse Mary must be God for your claims to be true.
Also if Mary was sinless because she was born w/Grace, wouldn't that also mean I'm sinless. The bible says salvation was given to me before the world began (Titus 1:2). And if salvation was given to me before the world began, then wouldn't that mean I was born w/Grace. And if I was born w/Grace, wouldn't that mean I'm sinless?
CASSMAN777 2 years ago
1.) Mary is BLESSED among women.God said.
2.) Titus 1:2 doesn´t say salvation was given to you, doesn´t say you were born w/Grace, It says God promised eternal life before the world began.Don´t twist it
3.) Bible YES says Mary is Full of Grace, Blessed among women.
4.) Bible says we are ALL born IN sin,(sin of Adam) that means OUT of Grace, not the case of Mary because she is FULL of Grace because God WANTED, not my problem neither yours, it is God desition.
mjmenjivar 2 years ago
The fact that she got blessed doesn't mean she was sinless and that we should offfer her prayers and special attention. Eternal life is salvation in reguards to titus 1:2. Again if God promised me Grace b/4 I was born, wouldn't that mean I'm sinless? Full of Grace doesn't mean sinless, Grace is unmerrited favor (Rom 11:6), therefore God didn't choose her based on anything she did. Full of Grace means that God chose her to give birth to the Christ, not that she was sinless.
CASSMAN777 2 years ago
That the problem with you regarding Mary. You says things that WE DON¨T BELIEVE.
WE DON¨T BELIEVE that Mary is sinless because of her own merits, or because something She Did. That´s not catholic doctrine. SHE IS SINLESS ONLY BECAUSE OF JESUSCRHIST´S MERITS. All Grace in us and in Mary is because of Jesus´s merits on the Cross,, to say what you say is to twist our doctrine about Mary.
mjmenjivar 2 years ago
The fact that she was blessed and Full of Grace are just the Expresion of God´s will to her.
God make her sinless because of THE FACT that God himself took flesh of her flesh, doesn´t say this FACT also anything to you? GOD became man and got in her womb, The one who created the whole and big Universe, GOT IN Mary´s womb.. SHE CANNOT BE ANY WOMAN,,sorry !!
If you compare God with Mary it is because YOUR God is too small, we can´t compare God with Mary, HE is unmeasurable, too big
mjmenjivar 2 years ago
Mary was the first christian if u think about it
gweems828 2 years ago
YOu yourself is claimeing that the bible is explicit that Jesus is the only one without sin. NOW TELL ME!!! WHAT VERSE OF THE BIBLE PROVE YOUR CLAIM, THAT JESUS IS THE "ONLY ONE" WITHOUT SIN???
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Comment removed
PonyGirl4Jesus 2 years ago
Jesus is God, there for He can NOT sin and DID NOT sin!! I'll find a verse(s) to prove it to you...
PonyGirl4Jesus 2 years ago 2
Excuse me.. understand first before you make a comment!! HAVE YOU READ MY WHOLE COMMENT!! I KNOW!! JESUS DID NOT SIN!! I KNOW THAT EVEN YOU WON'T SAY AT ALL. what i am just clarifying, is that , littleredbird(one of those who made a comment) states that mary sinned BECAUSE SHE FELT SAD. thus, I AM EMPHASIZING WHAT HE SAID. "DOes being sad MEANS you sinned?" as what he said? if that is so, therefore Jesus also sinned because he once felt sad, (JUST ASSUMING HIS CONCEPT) GOT IT?
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
JESUS DID NOT SIN. Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." EVERYONE ELSE IS A SINNER IN NEED OF A SAVIOR, INCLUDING MARY. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
lisareynolds64 2 years ago
oHW REALLY? everyone else is a sinner? did you know there are classes of human beings who never sinned?
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Wow, that's some strong delusion. (2 Thessalonians 2: 1-13)
1 John 1:8-10 says: 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
lisareynolds64 2 years ago
Eccl. 7:20 "For there is not a just man upon earth, that does good, & Sins not."
Rom:3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
bulyabalive 2 years ago 2
you're too fundamentalistic, Then if i am going to accept your "Concept" then tell me rather, "what kind of sin does a mongoloid does?" in every aspect, there are always exception in the Bible. Jesus himself is a True Man. does it mean, Jesus being a man also sinned? ofcourse not!!! if the new adam did not sin, it is appropriate to say, Mary the New Eve did not Sin.
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
MK, you are really good at divertings issues. We are discussing Mary not mongoloids! Mary was neither a mongoloid nor a baby, Jesus made the exception of Children himself! Mary was a normal sound person, but still a daughter of Adam.
bulyabalive 2 years ago 2
why did those living creatures are REPEATING THE SAME PRAYERS ALL THE TIME? another fact i noticed, is that, you told me, if "She" (Mary) had no sin, she had NO REASON TO BE SAD.?? what an unbiblical attack you did!! does it mean BEING SAD already makes one having sin? then why WOULD JESUS WEPT OVER JERUSALEM? (LUKE 19:41) does it mean Jesus had sinned??
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
if she had no sin she had no reason to be sad when jesus died. Jesus did not need to even come to earth to save her from Hell.
if this is true why does the bible not even give much attention to Mary?
that's just more Catholic hersey. It is almost as bad as baby babptism, purgatory and the selling of indulgences.
littleredbirdy 2 years ago
Are you rally sure that Mary sinned? go on!! and show me in what passage of the Bible does it prove!
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Mary was a person who sinned, and that's all that needs to be said.
littleredbirdy 2 years ago
Are you really sure that Mary sinned? biblically? go on!!! and i'll be able to show your wrongs!!!
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
I don't need to go on. The Bible is explicit when it states that Jesus was the only one without sin throughout his life.
littleredbirdy 2 years ago
Mary was the mother of Jesus. She is NOT holy!!! She is just like you are me. She is a person! As the ten commandments say, thou shalt have NO other gods before me. and the secount commandment, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.... Meaning do NOT worship her! Worship ONLY GOD!!! Please rememeber there are TEN commandmends, not nine with the last turned into two. The secount cammandment is offten taken out by Catholics. Very sad.
PonyGirl4Jesus 2 years ago
Mary plays only ONE role, and that is the earthly mother of Jesus of Nazareth.
Gabeedmann 2 years ago
There is really nothing to debate.Of course veneration of Mary is taught in the Bible. The Holy Spirit prophecied through Elizabeth that "all generations shall call thee Blessed"! If anything it shows that protestants who deny this are not considered the generations of the Church. Second point: The Mother of God interceded for all of us when at the wedding in Cana she implored Him and He said His time is not yet come but then listened to her intercession and He changed the water into wine!
samthed 2 years ago
Mary was blessed because she had the honor to be the earthly mother of our saviour, anyone can be blessed but that doesnt mean we are to be venerated. The biblical definition of church is not a theocratic organization, whose leader is person who claim to be infallible, dressed in royal clothes. The word church comes from the greek ekklesia, it means assembly, a group of people followers of Christ. Jesus said: because where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them..
grone97 2 years ago
James was his brother, does that mean he should have been special, too?
littleredbirdy 2 years ago
Not in the name of the saints or Mary. Mary did not intercede for all humanity at Canan, she never implored to Jesus for a miracle, she merely stated: there is no wine
grone97 2 years ago
How did she not intercede for humanity? Because you say so? The fact is she interceded for humanity and Christ listened to her.With that said there is nothing left to debate.unless you do not believe the Bible(which the Orthodox Church canonized BTW). I'm sure youre aware that the Apostles commanded us to practice intercessory prayer for one another and it was Christ Himself that said He is the God of the Living and not the Dead.Saints are alive and intercede for us.Its incense before the Throne
samthed 2 years ago
God listened to a person!? Right..
littleredbirdy 2 years ago
Saints have not been resurrected yet. Scripture makes it very clear they are asleep.
littleredbirdy 2 years ago
little red birdy: i really pity you, as a matter of fact, what you are telling me areall unbiblical!! you are speaking without citing even a single verse from the Bible!! now, before i let my self answer you, give me your email!! and wait!! you say Catholics repeat SAME PRAYERS ALL THE TIME. Pls. Don't blame us! were just following what is done in Heaven!! very clear, the bible states, "the four living creatures..DAY AND NIGHT THEY NEVER CEASE TO SAY. Holyholy holy" (REv 4:8) now answer me.
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
I've briefly debated gnrhead via PM. He's soft.
Gabeedmann 2 years ago
Colos 3:17
& whatever you DO IN WORD or DEED, DO ALL in the NAME of the Lord JESUS, GIVING thanks to GOD the Father THROUGH HIM.
Sorry I didn't read or saw Mary name in their (lol)
carbin15 2 years ago 2
Bill. Don't take the meaning having been graced out of context. Since I also acepted Christ as my savior, I also have been graced. Grace comes from the Lord and it is freely givin.Mary was in fact the mother of Jesus Christ, the man. Not the Son of God, who lowered himself to save. John 8: 57-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
A wolf in sheeps clothing
Deesrickchevrolet 2 years ago
5*/Fav
William Albrecht got owned by Turretinfan.
Roman Catholics are blasphemers while maintaining their Mary cult.
Tradition is obviously more important than Truth among Roman Catholics.....
JESUS IS LORD!!
IchtusDeogloria 2 years ago
william proved his point early on and i think its ufnny how turretin tried to keep changing subjects. william won hands down. you should see hsi update on this to see how confused turretfinfan was. can't wait for the marian dogmas to be debated
stinkybonjour 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Wow, TertullianFan. I think his declaration that Mary shouldn't be called "The Mother of God" is boarderline heresy.
Doesn't he know that the 3rd Ecumenical Council formally affirmed that name in part to declare Nestorius a heretic.
Glorthac 2 years ago
"I think his declaration that Mary shouldn't be called "The Mother of God" is boarderline heresy." Glorthac
He would do well to read Calvinist theologian Dr. Charles Hodge on the subject. Hodge proves decisively that it is proper to do so. She is not the mother of Christ's deity of course but Christ is both God and Man in one person. You can refer to Him by either nature. He can be called God or man.
Hence it is proper to call Mary the mother of God refering to the Jesus Christ the godman.
Blogrich55 2 years ago
she is the mother (as in, womb) of Christ, not the Father. therefore, she should not be called 'Mother of God'. although Christ is one with the Father, she did not generate/form the Father in her womb. to imply she did so is to venerate her above the Almighty.
anyway, you can call her whatever you like, she can't hear you, Christ is the only interceder.
carolannej 2 years ago
Are you a Patripassionist? Because neither I nor Blogrich believe that Mary formed the Father in her womb.
And no, calling her the mother of God is not veneration, it is a mere declaration of the fact.
Glorthac 2 years ago
Thanks bro! Couldn't have said it better myself. Also, we are not worshipping Mary or even addressing her. Of course she couldn't hear us even if we were. Paul, Peter, Abraham, none of the dead hear us. God bless.
Blogrich55 2 years ago
You are not worshipping or even addressing Mary? An average Catholic talks to Mary more than will ever talk to God! Churches are built in her honour, statues of every kind are placed in places of honour in Basilicas & nomaly above statues of the dead Jesus on the cross! Prayers are offered to her & in her Litugy & in Glories of Mary all sorts of titles including that of the saviour are given to her! Does that not concern you that it amounts of worship? Veneration actually means worship!
bulyabalive 2 years ago
No veneration does not mean worship. Study harder open your mind learn the Truth. If it does.. then explain Acts 19,why didthey rub handkerchiefs on the apostle and were healed.Was it the handkerchief that they honored that healed them or was it Christ? That is veneration.There are many instances of Christ working thru objects in the Bible,for instance, by touching Elisha's holy relics, a dead man was resurrected,1 year after Elisha had died.Was it Elisha's dead body that he thanked? Veneration
samthed 2 years ago
Why should we venerate someone who was born in sin?
littleredbirdy 2 years ago
Just open your dictionary, dear! Where on earth do you get the idea that people were "honouring" handkerchiefs? The bible is very clear on what happened in the Book of Acts 19 and why!!! There is no of Paul veneration there. God's miracles are not veneration even in the case of Elisha.
bulyabalive 2 years ago
The problem is protestants do not understand what veneration means. Tell me when you touch the apostle with a napkin and touch someone with it and they are healed..who healed them? Who do you honor and thank?Is it the miraculous object, the apostle, or Christ?It is Christ.That is veneration.BTW I'm not Roman catholic I'm ORTHODOX.We have a deeper understanding of the faith as we see God everywhere and venerate Him there. Thanks.
samthed 2 years ago
What? Do you mean you have a different meaning of veneration? Where in the Scriptures does God commands to "venerate" saints? For heavens sake, I have seen many a miracle but I have never "venerated" those God chose to make the miracles, is that so difficult to understand? IT IS ONLY GOD TO BE THANKED AND WORSHIPPED!
bulyabalive 2 years ago 3
How are so Sure!! that an average Catholic talks to Mary than ever talk to God? then explain me: Why catholics always pray "Through Christ our Lord?" come on!! show me your references from the bible!! and i'll show you your wrong!!
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Show me a biblical passage which expresses this intersession heresey.
Catholics also repeat THE SAME PRAYERS ALL THE TIME.
littleredbirdy 2 years ago
I have been around that fake Church for quite a time. People "pray" the rosary more than any other prayer. Actually when a catholic does not chant the rosary, that catholic does not know how to pray!!!! They bless in the name of Mary, swear in the name of Mary, etc. Why bury your head in the sand, just look around.
bulyabalive 2 years ago
How true it is , that Liars are "sons of the Devil" (John 8:44) LIKE YOU BULYABLIVE. in what time, what place, what context, HAVE YOU HEARD THAT WE CATHOLICS BLESS IN THE NAME OF MARY??? WHERE?? YOURE SUCH A BIG LIAR!! JUST LIKE YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL!!! PROVE ME WHEN! AND WHERE IT HAPPENED!! if that is so? THEN WHY WOULD CATHOLIC PRIESTS ALWAYS ENDS OUR MASS BY BLESSING US IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT? WHY WILL A CATHOLIC PRIEST BLESS US LIKE THAT? IF WE USE MARY'S NAME? LIAR!!
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Ah, O.K. I quote, my neighbour some years ago to her daughter who is going to wed "My the Blessed Mother keep you and bless you"!
bulyabalive 2 years ago
oh really? how i pity you. you dont really know the Bible. i quote some passage of the bible (Not from my neighbor) i read JOHN 7:17, "If anyone is to do God's will, he will know whether the TEACHING is from God" what Jesus is emphasizing, is the "teaching" (And not a quote from a neighbor) why did Jesus said this,? as Paul testified, "For there must be FACTIONS among you.." (1 Cor 11:19)
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Funny that you are now appeal to the Bible which you don't even believe in!
Where does Jesus teach that to reach Him one should pass through His mother?
How do you confirm that the teachings such as Purgatory, confessing to priests, Mary mediatrix, Immaculately conceived, assumed into heaven come from God?
Where do you get papacy in the God's word?
Where do get the teaching that Mary was sinless?
Factions among you indeed! Yet no other Church boasts of "oneness" than Yours!!!
bulyabalive 2 years ago
See? it is clear, that in th True Church there are some Factions!! (which may include your neighbor's knowledge) now, the question is, IN WHAT OFFICIAL TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH says that we must be bless in the name of Mary? give me at least a NAME of a Catholic Priest who blesses in the name of Mary!! that you may be justified. PLS READ THE SCRIPTURES. AND QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE (NOT FROM ONE'S NEIGHBOR)
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
It is actually simple, just by watching a person's real priorities. When Pope JPII was shot, while in ambulance, he was NOT praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus, over & over he was saying "Mary, my mother"! The rosary - 50 hails marys is the heart of catholic prayers in families!
You are not set to admit truth but just to argue.
bulyabalive 2 years ago
and so? i cant see anything wrong with what Pope JP2 ? get your bible and tell me wat specific verse did he contradicted? i rily rily pity you!! you are just, but an another fulfillment of wat is written "These People blashpheme all that THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND" (JUDE 10)
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
MK, I am not suprised that you don't see "anything wrong" with your beloved Pope replaced God Almighty with Mary.
2 Cor. 4:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not less the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them."
bulyabalive 2 years ago
And so are you, it is clear when the bible said, "These epeople blaspheme all that they do not understand" (Jude 1:10) take a little logic (if you have a common sense) whenever you look towards a painting of da vinci and u began to be amazed at it, will you praise the PAINTING ITSELF? or Da Vinci? definitely, if we praise (or call) Mary, we simply Praise God Himself who is the Creator of Mary.
MKnewmedia1 2 years ago
Deut. 4:15 "Take you therefore good head to yourself; for you saw no manner of form on the day that the Lord spoke to you in Horebe out of the mists of the fire, less you corrupt yourselves and make you a graven image, the similitute of any figure, the likeness of male or female."
Ex. 20:4 "You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of anthing that IS IN HEAVEN above or is in the earth beneath,... You sha