They tell us market won't work in healthcare

[trillian1964]

Simple question, simple answer: Consumer electronics are getting cheaper and better due to huge amount of automation. The work with people is highly dependent on the work of people. That's why theese services have much less potential in productivity. Measuring health care with methods of i.e car building is cruelty against sick people, the weakest members of our society. Go ask a person who is suffering cancer and doesn't get his drugs paid by the insurance due to saving money.

[RyderSpearmann]

Capitalism has created the miracle of healthcare. American scientists and labs earn more Nobel prizes for medicine than ALL OTHER NATIONS COMBINED, so the continued advancement of medicine is essentially and American phenomenon... capitalism at work.

Capitalism always works better than any other system known. That is the simple and plain record of it. Even the "poor" in capitalist nations have riches unknown to the poor of other systems.

[FastlaneProductions1]

I'm not sure if you're talking about health care owned by real business men, or National Healthcare. National Healthcare doesn't provide money for anyone except the politicians (no one deserving of America's money). We already have strong running health care business in the states. if you're talking about regular health care, I agree.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

@FastlaneProductions1 Until yesterday, healthcare in the US was a market, although perversely distorted and burdened by humongous government intervention - regulation, mandates, etc. I was referring to that market.

[kajmobile]

what magical market process enables some avg working stiff to be able to pay for the equivalent of a brand spanking new rolls royce? and do it right after he quits his job?

there obviously is none.

the market works by saying when u earn $30k/yr u cant buy rolls royces or medical procedures that cost as much. and that is immoral

the goal of the economy is not market purity, it is production! the market is a tool and not the goal

[hylo1111]

to reduce the cost of healthcare: Stop the hypocondriacs, stop the nonesense law suits, open up compitition between states, open up compitition between countries that creates a true free market, give additional tax breaks to insurance companies that donate coverage to the less fortunate(and actually prove this with transparaty) then you would have universal health care

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

Amen

[WorldTravelDude]

Every developed nation in the world has long experienced and experimented with "free market" health care and they all have come to the same conclusion. Free market in health care is an illusion.

Fiercely market oriented nation like Japan (which does NOT have govt run health insurance program or govt run health care delivery program) has strong control over how much patients can be charged for particular treatment or procedure.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

So does Japan have price controls in healthcare? Or what do they have?

To say "nations have come to conclusions" is abjectly inaccurate. Nations don't come to conclusions. Politicians undertake political actions. Voters buy promises from politicians (or not). Politicians lie to get more control and keep it for as long as they can. That's what happens.

Also, if market fails in healthcare and not in other industries, why do you think that is?

[WorldTravelDude]

All Japanese are covered by private Insurance providers and are NOT allowed to make profit by law. The govt sets prices for each medical procedure to the smallest detail. Every 2 years the health care providers and the Japanese govt negotiate price. Holland has somewhat similar system.

German system (out of which US employer provided health care system was designed) also has similarly strong price negotiating power with the state governments in Germany.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

So if the gov't (1) does not allow profits and (2) sets the prices, how is it not state controlled?

[WorldTravelDude]

Health care and profit are two conflicting interests. If profit motive is allowed to take hold you will end up with US style health care system. According to most health economists it's not even a system. It is a market.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

Not sure I follow. Healthcare and profits are conflicting interests? So, why are profits not harming the abundance generated by any other vitally important industries - such as food, clothing, shelter, etc.??

We eat far more frequently (most of us) than we go to the doctor. Many of us go years without a visit to the doctor, yet can't go more than a few days without food, clothes or shelter. Why do profits not create a fatal conflict in those industries?

Please be consistent in your reasoning.

[WorldTravelDude]

There is a heavy involvement of US govt in food industry as well. Ever heard about billions of dollars of FARM SUBSIDY given to farmers each year by the US govt ? That's 16 billion $ a year. That is almost equal to sale price of all narcotics from Mexico sold in the US.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

That was not what I asked. Subsidies (which I, btw, consider wrong) do not mean absence of profits.

If profits are indeed incompatible with providing vital goods and services to the public, why is it not universally incompatible but only creates this "conflict" in healthcare??

[WorldTravelDude]

I find this "free market" almost non existent. Take for example oil and gas ( which is one of the most inflectional factor in price of any goods and services) is almost entirely controlled by very few oil producing nations or OIL CARTEL. Cartel of any kind is very contrary to principles ''free market" since cartel means monopoly.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

You are still not answering my question. You have stated a position on the dysfunctional role of profits in healthcare, and I am asking why you think this dysfunctional role is limited to healthcare. You are talking about cartels. (?!???) Can you simply explain your view of profits and their role in other industries?

I agree with you, truly free markets are hard to find, if they do exist. Govt intervention and regulation is pervasive and excessive. I consider it a bad thing.

[WorldTravelDude]

It's becomes dysfunctional in for-profit health care because how would a for-profit health care enterprise survive if people remain healthy and did not have to use their services (or have to use very little). So the way to keep the business running is by absolutely no emphasis on disease or illness prevention on top of doing unnecessary tests so more tests they do more money they can get paid. Both add a huge cost to the patients and the system.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

You have again avoided answering the question WHY this market dysfunction is unique to health

Let's follow your reasoning further: If it were more profitable to render services badly so they become repeated, everyone would be doing it all the time, and over time we would see crappier and crappier goods & services at ever increasing prices across the board. Empirically we know this is not true. Why do you think?

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

I won't even comment on the assertion you are making implicitly that doctors work to make us sicker, as do drug companies, because it is more profitable. If that were the case, since the US has a for-profit healthcare system, general health, life expectancy, disease survival rates, etc. would deteriorate over time - but empirically this is not the case.

Do you recognize this discrepancy between your theory and the empirical reality? Maybe there is something wrong with your theory on profits?

[WorldTravelDude]

I DIDN'T mean doctors would intentionally work make people sick so that they can keep the flow of patients. What I meant was for example in Holland its private non-profit insurers own gyms. If members participate in gym program the members gets discount in insurance premium. It will not help keep docs busy but it will surely help insurance company form sending its members to docs (which it has to pay) less often because its members participated in program at its gyms. Prevention is much cheaper

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

Wait a second. If prevention is cheaper, then these profit hungry insurance companies would be all over prevention, right??? Because that would result in them paying out less claims, and keeping more of what policy holders pay in in premiums.

So before you were saying that there is no profit in prevention, but now you say prevention is cheaper. Which is it? :)

[WorldTravelDude]

I have NO clue why profit driven insurance companies in the US have not adopted wellness programs for its members. I dont understand their business model. I guess because they face NO serious legal or financial consequences for dropping its members when its time to pay out for treatments.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

What a nice way to resolve a contradiction - just make a sweeping statement about an entire industry and say "done".

Health insurance is probably the most regulated industry in the country. Yet you believe that companies face NO CONSEQUENCES for what is essentially breach of contract?!? Wouldn't that be a little unlikely?

Whenever you encounter a contradiction, check your premises.

[WorldTravelDude]

I guess one way to keep health insurance companies profitable is by picking only the healthy ones so anyone with less than desirable health stats be weeded out like the new born from Colorado who was denied application because the newborn was "too overweight" based on company's guideline.

Or by denying treatment after doing extensive research on health history and finding really absurd excuses like not reporting "ACNE" which happened to women who appeared before US Congress.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

You know, this has been a good exchange, yet you keep avoiding my central question:

IF PROFITS ARE INCOMPATIBLE WITH SUCCESS IN HEALTHCARE, WHY ARE THEY NOT INCOMPATIBLE WITH SUCCESS IN EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY AND HAVE IN FACT BROUGHT ABOUT TREMENDOUS INNOVATION AND PROSPERITY?

You will believe whatever you want to believe (for example that profits are the devil), but you need to be aware when you are avoiding a question because the answer may not quite fit with your belief.

Be well.

[WorldTravelDude]

My final thoughts.

I'm fortunate NOT be a US citizen. I dont have to deal with such an arcane system.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

Yeah, thank goodness Canada's system is so straightforward, cheap and efficient!

I wonder why both Canadian citizens and (especially) politicians keep coming to the US to get treatment, and are quite happy to pay out of pocket to do so.

But anyway.... I intend to try and stay healthy regardless, and hope you do too! :)

[WorldTravelDude]

Canada does NOT bar anyone who who has financial resources to go for treatment in the most expensive system in the world. An average middle class Canadian would not be able do so.

The health stats we've achieved for our citizens outranks that of US (according to studies) despite spending far less. I'm pretty happy about it.

We love our health care system and we are proud be the nation of highest percentage of pot smokers in the industrialized world.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

"We". It would be prudent if you spoke for yourself. Obviously people who pay to be treated in the US might disagree with your assessment. But anyway....

Btw, could you please point me to the studies you are referring to? One study at least? Maybe two if you could?

Thanks.

[hylo1111]

Because it is available and they can afford it. 2. Canadian heatlthcare is not exactly in the dark ages as well. 3. The US does have facilities that are world class with the best best specialized doctors in the world, question is can everyone afford them (no). US and Canada's healthcare have to looked at differently. Canadians for the most part are all covered while the US not. However there is just somethings that Canadian healthcare cant afford to do because it is Universal.

[hylo1111]

@TheLegalImmigrant05 Its straight forward, Cheap, and efficient. For certain things lol. But The US does have better Dr.s for certain situations and if a Canadian can affor it, go for it. Isn't that what fee market is supposed to look like?

The wait times are being addressed by opening up more private clinics. But I don't see us in the position of being in the dark ages.

[hylo1111]

They are compatible. But unlike buying a car, or house, it is the provider that decides if you get the treatment and not the other way around. And also there is no real compition between hospitals or insurance companies. One way to solve this if every American dropped their insurance company(which wont happen), then you would see prices drop. Best way I can see is to have tax incentives to companies who are fair and offer coverage to the less fortunate

[hylo1111]

Stricter regulations need to be in place for fare play. One way to solve this problem is to have a tax of 50% on companies who use this kind of tactic to save money, and then have tax brakes to comanies who don't have all those bull fine print pre existing bull, but actually provide fair affordable coverage across the board. Hospitals need to smartenup as well, and have the same thing done to them, as well as the drug companies, because the too use government grants(your tax)in developing drugs.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

Also, prevention is actually NOT CHEAPER FOR THE SYSTEM AS A WHOLE in the long run, and here is why. :)

You prevent diseases that shorten peoples' lives, and more people get to live longer. It is a known fact that MOST of the healthcare expenditures happen in the last 5 years of life, when people develop various unavoidable chronic illnesses. Nobody dies of old age as a completely healthy person, right? So prevention ends up costing more.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

And another thing:

Isn't prevention the responsibility of THE PATIENT?!? Isn't a healthy lifestyle my responsibility, not my doctor's? If I value my health, should I wait for someone else to do something to help it, or should I get off my butt and take care of it? Think about it.

[WorldTravelDude]

If your idea is to make health care costs cheaper by shortening people's lives because prevention might be expensive in the long run ...well there are many ideas to shorten lives of people. Murder or genocide would be pretty effective idea.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

Careful with your wording. I did not say that it is my desire to shorten people's lives. I simply stated a (pretty obvious) fact that preventative measures do not lower overall costs of healthcare. I, for one, hope to live a very long life, and wish the same for everyone. I was illustrating that your premise of cost-effectiveness of prevention is, at best, less than certain.

Do not attribute to me things I did not say, please.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

"I have NO clue"

OK, thanks for admitting that.

Back to my original question, which you still have not answered:

You started the argument by claiming that profits and effective healthcare were incompatible. Yet it seems that profits are NOT incompatible with the successful functioning of ALL OTHER INDUSTRIES, which creates innovation and better value for consumers. I ask you: WHY AREN'T PROFITS TOXIC FOR ALL OTHER INDUSTRIES? WHY DO PROFITS THERE ACTUALLY DRIVE PROSPERITY?

[WorldTravelDude]

Similarly in the British system docs are paid more for doing preventative medicine than treating illnesses that have reached catastrophic stage which is exactly the reverse of for-profit system in the US where there is very little money to made in illness prevention while huge money can be made in treating patients whose illness has reached catastrophic stage.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

Just now you said prevention is much cheaper, now you are saying there is no money in prevention.

Also, again, since there is more money to be made in treating later stage illnesses, isn't that a motive for doctors to conceal early symptoms from patients so they can charge them more for treatment later? Is that your understanding of how doctors work?

What about patients choosing doctors based on results and track record? Would patients choose such docs over those that treat early?

[WorldTravelDude]

Of course prevention is cheaper yet the US system has NOT accepted that idea.

There is no money to be made in prevention (at least in the US). Any wonder the current ratio of available GPs vs Specialists in the US is so abnormally biased towards Specialists.

GPs take care of illness prevention (and treatment of minor illnesses) while Speicalists (eg Oncologist) treat people who have already developed serious illness.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

I am sorry but you keep contradicting yourself. I asked about prevention as a profit source for INSURANCE COMPANIES< not doctors. Yet you answer about doctors. We keep having this disconnect, with me asking you one question and you answering another.

[WorldTravelDude]

Drug companies do the same thing. More they can convince doctors to prescribe medicine by giving all kinds of deals along with scaring people into demanding drugs even their drugs are proven to be effective or not or in worse case have tremendous negative side effects. In many cases the long term effects of drugs cannot be seen until it is studied in large number of patients for many years after regularly taking drugs.

In free market, more you sell more profit you would likely make.

[WorldTravelDude]

The interest of every nation that do have universal health care would be keep its citizens as healthy as possible to keep the health care costs down no wonder every developed nation has much healthier population at the same time lower health care costs which is hard to believe for many Americans who cant believe "free market" has not done wonders in America.

[WorldTravelDude]

There are 4 models of health care systems in the world. 1 German Model, 2 Canadian Single Payer Model, 3 NHS Single Payer Model and 4 Out of Pocket Model.

Interestingly US has all 4 models currently in operation but in a very fragmented and dysfunction state.

[WorldTravelDude]

Every nation do come to conclusion or consensus on any particular issue.

Switzerland and Taiwan had dysfunctional free market based for-profit health care system up until early 1990s. In early 1990s both countries got rid of their for-profit health care system. These 2 countries ended up with 2 very different systems. Taiwan ended up something similar to Canadian single payer system while Switzerland ended up something similar to German system.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

You still have not addressed the key issue: Why is free market "dysfunctional" in healthcare but not dysfunctional everywhere else??

On Switzerland: they voted down the single payer system in a referendum in 2007. Their insurance companies were already non-profit at the time of reform in 1994.

In the US, non-profit insurance co.'s are already dominant. They succeed largely because of tax and regulatory advantages over for-profits.

[WorldTravelDude]

"On Switzerland: they voted down the single payer system in a referendum in 2007. Their insurance companies were already non-profit at the time of reform in 1994."

Each country that do have universal health care have crafted their health care system based on their own taste, culture and their circumstances. For example in UK, both insurance and delivery is done by the govt in contrast to Canada where insurance is provided by the govt but health care service is delivered by private providers.

[hylo1111]

@TheLegalImmigrant05 Emergencie room healthcare, and Dr. Lawsuits, and hospital lawsuits, and system abuse drives up cost. However it is the insurance company that ultimately decides if you get care, or how much they will pay for care. Litlle different than house or car insurance where you can shop around and have more control . health can be a little more deceptive at times on what the coverage will be at the time you actually need it. Takes more homework.

[Tripo1iSamson]

Interesting, man. I notice people, like I too, who think in the same manner as the guy in this video do, tend to think of things in a qualitative or characteristically detailed way, while the people who support healthcare "reform" seem to be emoting or thinking in a linear, feeling-based way. I can be wrong, though, nothing's totally black and white. But I don't trust healthcare reform, because I know the bad mistakes governments constantly make, as well as the control they tend to grab.

[tubaboy71]

government regulations actually drove up costs on EVERYTHING that has gone wrong over the last 60 years. All in the name of control.

[JMBSM61]

The Government wants in on this.....They Democrats are becoming more and more like the Mafia IMHO. It's a control, power thing I think.

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

They are working to create a permanent majority of government-dependent voters, non-contributors who receive money from the federal budget rather than pay taxes. And healthcare is key, because people value very few things as much as their health. Once the government controls your healthcare, they have you by the balls.

[roughcutone2]

GREAT Point !!!

>>and you can curse if you feel the need I can take it.

[MrBankRuns]

They are lying to steal the money we pay for health care.

[lukeschumann]

You're obviously not stupid. Quit cussing....it makes you sound stupid.