Bhikkhuni Ordination

[cittamagga]

The highest respect to Buddha is Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, Upasika and Upasaka entering the right path, practicing according to Dhamma.

bhikkhu vā bhikkhunī vā upāsako vā upāsikā vā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno viharati sāmīcippaṭipanno anudhammacārī, so tathāgataṃ sakkaroti garuṃ karoti māneti pūjeti apaciyati, paramāya pūjāya.

一位比丘、比丘尼、男居士、女居士進入正法, 方向正確地進入正道, 依法而行, 就是對如來作最高的照顧、恭敬、尊重、供養。[Dighanik­aya, Parinibbanasuttam]

[Dice3000]

would like to see more talks from this monk !

[foyin852]

南無阿彌陀佛

[agentmommy]

Amazing recognition of an age-old gender struggle of stickin it to women. I appreciate that there is a call to at least being given the same respect of a man. Men and women are different. There should be checks and balances between nunneries and monasteries, like they should be given equal weight in their concrete value to the community, in terms of funding, social support etc. Women can also realize mind. This is great. Please just let them ordain. :)

[yfahlin]

@agentmommy What my forest monk teacher always tells me is that all one need to do is robe the mind inside. If a lady wants to practise Buddhism, they can always practise as a lay preceptor or a Brahmacariya, an eight preceptor. There have been many Machees and Brahmachariya in Thailand who attained the anagami stage and some arahanta stage without ever ordaining as a Bhikkhuni

[JrDiNisi]

@yfahlin "arhanta" so even final liberation needs to be qualified by a gender difference in wording?:P

[orlando098]

@yfahlin

So if being a full monk is irrelevant to achieving enlightenment then why do monks bother with it?

[yfahlin]

@orlando098 Becoming a monk makes it easier to focus oneself 100% to the practice of the dhamma and the rules laid down by the Buddha. Only when one is a good, virtuous one, one who has accumulated the full parami, will he be able to attain arahantship. If one is destined to become a monk, one would be born a man, not a woman. Being able to accept that fact is learning acceptance to the way things are and not to fight it. That is not the way of the Buddha.

[orlando098]

@yfahlin

I don't see what destiny has to do with it; surely Buddhism is at least as much about personal effort and responsibility as it is just about "destinty". And why should gender be such a big deal (so bhikkhunis can't be ordained by bhikkus, according to you) - it is all one sangha, no? Anyway, here is Bhikku Bodhi's paper - thubtenchodron do t org/BuddhistNunsMonasticLife/r­evivalbhkni_final4.pdf

[yfahlin]

@orlando098 Ok, let's use the word karma in lieu of destiny for your sake. If it is the karma of the person to be a legitimate ordinated Bhikhunni, then, she would have been born a man. Gender is no big deal in many issues but in this case, unless you want to go against the vinaya, please go ahead and form heavy karma.

[JrDiNisi]

This whole fight for Bhikkhuni ordination or not is more about CULTURE, then the dhamma, always has been, and always will be. I agree with Ajahn Brahm in other talks where he states that you should never let the culture overrule the teachings.

[JrDiNisi]

If you go by the words of the Buddha, by just pure buddhist knowledge, the fact that we were all mothers, the fact that there IS no I, no me, no identity, the fact that we can be male, female, or any other sentient being.. then it makes NO logical sense that female humans should not be monks equal to male humans.

What if I reach the state of once returner in this life and next life.. oh dang I'm a female, guess I'm screwed out of the best chance of reaching Nibanna.. lol.

[yfahlin]

@JrDiNisi You do not need to ordain as a Bhikkuni to attain final liberation. There are 2 machees in Thailand that I know of and one that I know that are reputed to have attained arahanship or at least anagami stage. One is the late Machee Keow of Wat Pa Ban Tad in Udon Thani and the other Machee Noi of Wat Hin Mak Peng in Nongkhai. The two of them has passed away, one recently.

[JrDiNisi]

@yfahlin I am aware that you do not need to lead the homeless life to attain final libertarian, but I've never heard anything from any monks or cannons that DON'T state that the best chance to attain liberation IS the homeless life.

[yfahlin]

@JrDiNisi Yes, I agree that renouncing the lay life and taking up the ordained life is the best and fastest way to liberation. But one must be careful as the kammic retribution is even greater for a monk or nun as the know the rules. If they break them, intentionally or unintentionally, they will double up on the bad kamma in this or their next life.

[yfahlin]

@JrDiNisi It is stated in the Pali Canon that bhikkhunis can only be ordained by the Buddha himself or another ordained bhikkhuni. Since the Buddha has passed into mahaparinibbana 2554 years ago, and the last of the Bhikkhuni lineage has died many years ago, technically no woman can be ordained legitimately in the Theravadan lineage. It is possible in the Tibetan and Mahayana lineage.

[JrDiNisi]

@yfahlin The Buddha stated never to trust him or anything else on respect or faith, but only if it fits with your reason, and just like Ajahn Sujato I'm calling foul on these Bhikunni rules. It makes no logical sense based on all the teachings from the cannon i've read to have such separations based on gender when none of us truly ARE a gender. The only issues would be cultural issues as I stated before, not Dhamma issues or Karmic issues.

[yfahlin]

@JrDiNisi The Australian Buddhist community can do what they see fit and consider reasonable. Why in some Buddhist lineages like the Tibetan, monks can even marry. The issue here is that if they chose to be Theravadan monks of the Thai order, they should stick to the order's rules or else they can re-ordain as Mahayana, Zen or Tibetan monks. Or perhaps starat a new order. Arahanta is a genderless word. Arhat, arahant, arahanta means all the same with no gender separation.

[yfahlin]

@JrDiNisi Bhikkhunis can only be ordain by 5 ordained Bhikkhunis or the Buddha himself. I am quite sure that Ajahn Chah would have agreed with me. He is the teacher of Ajahn Brahm after all. In fact, all Ajahn Chah's senior Western disciplines, such as Ajahn Sumedho and Thanissaro Bhikku are in agreement with the Thai sangha. Need I say more.

[orlando098]

@yfahlin

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote a paper showing how it is possible. And even if it wasn't if following legal rules slavishly is more important than compassion then monasticism seems pretty pointless. To me, a good monk is one who is compassionate

[yfahlin]

@orlando098 The monastic rules are not legal rules where lay people or even monks can edit or delete as they please. They are rules laid down by the Buddha himself. If one chooses not to follow, they should dissociate themselves from the Buddha and Buddhism.

[orlando098]

@yfahlin

I just think it's male chauvinism. If for some bizarre reason the male Theravada sangha died out but not the female one, I am sure would-be monks wouldn't just put up with the idea that only women could be monastics for the rest of time

[yfahlin]

@orlando098 I doubt it, as long as there is Buddhism and the Buddha sasana, the male lineage will be there. Unlike the female line, which the Buddha as hesitant to ordain a the beginning. You must remember that Ananda, pleaded many times before the Buddha agreed on women ordination.

[hepabepa]

@orlando098 If Bhikku Bodhi wrote a paper showing how it is possible, then maybe he should rewrite the Tipitaka. Compassion has nothing to do with ordination of bhikhunnis. Rules foster discipline. Without discipline, attainment is not possible, not even to the level of a stream enterer, let alone an arahata

[orlando098]

It is also disappointing about the rules about bikkhunis supposedly laid down by the Buddha where they are said to be inferior to monks. You say you and others question the historicity of this, but don't say why other than, presumably, that you don't like it and would prefer he hadn't said it. Is there so much more evidence for the historicity of other (more palatable to modern people) sayings of the Buddha?

[orlando098]

Wikipedia says that leaders of the Thai buddhist community decided to remove Ajahn Brahm from the Ajahn Chah Forest Sangha lineage because women were ordained at the monastery he heads. It seems very disappointing that a religion that is meant to cultivate compassion and wisdom would act like that.

[JohnCKimbrough]

I do not think that the understanding and practice of Buddhism or the development of the mind and wisdom and compassion is based in any way on one's gender. It is determined by other factors such as our conditioning, interest, energy, and enthusiasm. Both men and women have these attributes and they should be welcomed in the Sangha and listened to and respected equally.

[msnihasa]

If I were on one side of a river and was told that there used to a be a bridge here and I could cross but the bridge was brought down by a strong current. I know to build another bridge I would have to find a way across the river in order to build a foundation there to repair it, and I see a constructed bridge further downstream. I can use it to cross the river so that then I could rebuild the bridge. I don't think I would think too hard about it. I would just ask to use the other bridge.

[maxaveniko]

Ajahn Brahm do you have any video so we can see your temple or meditation center? I also like to see some of the audience when there is dharma talk. I think it would be nice if we can see this.

[Undech01]

Bhante Gunaratana, Maha Thera of the Sri Lankan order of all of North America has 3 fully ordained nuns at his temple. and he also supports abolishing the eight heavy rules. His views on their origin are similar to the bhante speaking here.

sadu sadu sadu bhante Sujato!

[mssca]

Modern day Buddhists take long time to get some progress because we do not want to create problems in our societies. For example, gay people in Sri Lanka should have EQUAL rights. But Government of Sri Lanka do not recognized them because they do not want to create riots because other religious groups in Sri Lanka highly against it. If Sri Lankan Buddhists passed a law for gay rights, it will create riots in Sri Lanka. But they do not beat gay people either.

[mssca]

Buddha did take time to give equal rights to female nuns even though Buddhism is gender neutral because if he said that women get the exactly the same thing as men, in those days in India, it will create a riot among other men including Indian monks. Remember, monks are NOT enlightened. Buddha delayed the nuns ordination because it will even can create war in India at that time. Even in Italy (Europe) in 1800 A.C. women were beaten if they refuse to cook or have sex. So, it is not just India!

[slaveOFsenses]

as far as i think the reason why the buddha created such laws in the begining is to apply to the culture for the time

and to see if the bhikkunis were sereous about what they were up to and willing to overcome the pride thats hidden in them due to the oppression,

but now such rules should be of no concern since buddha allowed 2 abolish the lesser and minor laws

[venusbuddha]

I agree that the Buddha might have to introduce some practices that not too oppose to its context, so as the Sangha could survive.

[slaveOFsenses]

before buddha's parinibbana (passing away of the buddha) didn't buddha asked to abolish lesser and the minor precept/rules

"if sangha should wish it, Ananda, let them, when im gone, abolish the lesser and minor precepts/rules"

[venusbuddha]

but some elder Sangha (according to Mahamvamsa) decided not to add the rule that has not been said and not to cancle the rule that has been introduced. This was at the first council Rajagrha, Magadha. The Theravada Sangha follows this kind of decision of the elders (Thera)

[slaveOFsenses]

well as far as i understand thats wrong then again u could argue that its okay

coz i think buddha accepted that in a way women are amarter "if women act intelligently, judiciously, and vigilantly their wisdom

surpasses that of men." in buddha's own words

(Na so sabbesu thanesu

Puriso hoti pandito

Itthipi pandita honti

Tattha tattha vicakkhana

pay close attention to the part which says "....their wisdom

surpasses that of men"

that was buddha saying

[slaveOFsenses]

so as i stated above its this female oppression that exist even today which has prevented them from being what they are and has given birth to this false idea of inferiority so such laws were created for they're own good a way of overcoming such fear and such laws only apply to the nuns not for lay people

but as a buddhist man i do believe that its wrong to uphold such laws and that law should be abolished

i might make a video addressing the fact of the matter which i'd send u if it happens

[Lin11T]

But later it was found that this statement is not true at all. It's just some undisciplined disciples trying to act on their own, based on 'Avijja'

Maybe you 'd like to check it yourself in the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta completely

Sukhi hottu . . .

[slaveOFsenses]

@Lin11T

which statement,

"if sangha should wish it, Ananda, let them, when im gone, abolish the lesser and minor precepts/rules"

that statement

[slaveOFsenses]

or is it this

"if women act intelligently, judiciously, and vigilantly their wisdom

surpasses that of men"

that was found not true

if you could please let me know, i would appreciate it

[pyrotek55]

How do i get ordinated as a bhikkhu? I want to become a full-fledged monk, but i dont know how...

[fersheeze]

me too. im looking into it. we are looking into it at the same time. i want to escape from the consumer way of life. i have always had a spiritual calling. i just dont know how or which?

[venusbuddha]

I can help you contact with some monks that can help. Are you really  serious about this? ^^

[pyrotek55]

I am.