funny funny funny funny funny guy. The guy has done well bullshitting though. Sucking up to virtually every shady character to get money. Highly immoral but i guess you can't knock the fact that he has made loads of money out of it. Oh well...
We're not being sold a war with Saudi Arabia atm. The war drumming on Iran have however been beating for many years now. I think it will happen, unfortunately.
im going to conclude my arguements here by saying:
I dont believe that shia islam is the ONLY path to god. Islamic republic (not realyn islamic, in fact i think a bit satanic, if not completely) will go to Hell. God bless Iran & Iranians, their culture & freedoms & god protect Iran from all of the external & internal evil & opressors. thats my last comment here.
Theres only 90-100 million shias. 1 Billion sunnis, 1 billion Hindu & 3 Billion christians. For some reason u think that this small number of shia out of 6 billion r following the right path? NO iman, there is no 1 path, there r several. for u to claim a small sect of islam is 1 true path is jut incorrect. again its right for u, but not the entire world, U DONT KNOW U CLAIM U KNOW & U KNOW GOD, but in reality u have no idea. NEITHER DO I, thats why i dont interfear & judge others faith, BUT U DO
no ur english is very good, but it seems like somehow u r avoiding to telling me what is the clear path & what parts of IR u like u say idealogy, well i explained their idealogy then u say no those parts i dont like. well then which parts? give me 3 4 5 laws in IR that u like in particular that makes it better that anyother system in the world. then maybe ill understand.
iman they r carrying out the IR idealogy currectly, its the idealogy thats flaud. IRs based on made up facts & lies. from day 1therefore its their idealogy. they use religion to prolong their cancerous existance by claiming doing gods will this has happend 1000s of times in history. so nothing new. thats the way i c it, ok god is here but throughout history it was humans that had to get up & remove such evil governments with the help of god. god wont do it for us
not hidduism too many gods & sikhs hate muslims. jews mohamed didnt really like after medina. zoroastrianism well we can see norooz & chaharshambe sory as a symbols which r being attacked by. SO ONLY SHIA. no u dont think others r right in any way(not muslim, not sorrendering to god the rght way). thats IR idealogy is currect. u see my point? only shia in IR no other. that is dectatorship where even ur god & religion is hand picked for u by governemt. that to me is 100% incorrect & unholy
NO iman u dont think all muslim sects r equal as only the 12imam shia sect believes in 12th imam(sunni, wahabis dont agree with this)is to come & still hasnt (bahais think he already has). so u only believe in SHIA not any other kind. dont make it sound like u c others at an equal footing. shia doesnt accept other sects & for christiaity in islam jesus is NOT the son of god, but christian think so, so islam doesnt actually agree with contemporary christian views either
religious freedom is the path for humanity. a closed minded society will never get anywhere & IR is based on closeminded following of 1 path. thats not the way & it will fail history has shown & we both can c the fallout of it. the more ppl come out the more u can c the true face of IR shooting & killing & arresting. now ppl know the true face of khamenei & IR & they will crush it im sure of that. IRANIANS will crush this unholy government. yes god is alive & will help IRANIANS crush this cancer
i dont believe in hadis, so if they say imam said this dua for norooz & imam said this about foreign influence i realy dont buy it. whos to say imam said this?who recorded it haids?use of religion & especially post-mohamad revolations & hadis isnt ment for ppl like me. so please dont say since imam sadeque said this then its ok. IR tried to brain wash me & my generation with this stuff & didnt work. use logic not hadis(its mnwriten)i dont accept it @ face value
how can i & iranians forgive these ppl they destroyed all we had, our history, culture, society, economy. they made iranians anxious, stressed & poor. look wat they did to our land iman & u think they should b amended? how can iranians forgive these monsters that sold our land piece by piece just to stay in power. they sold our caspian see to russia. our gulf to arabs & u want them to be amended because they say YA MAHDI, YA HOSSAIN. i doubt thats going to happen. iranians will tare them apart
i believe in capitalism too, but not the kind that i could comit man slauter & pay the family & get off as it is in IR court system(khoonbaha) not a kind of capitalism that allows land lords to treat peasants as semislaves(before the white revolution that khomani opposed) IR has devalued human life where money can buy it. u can research it. in iran i can kill someone from poor family & pay them abit of money & i wont go to jail. so what kind of a law is that? do u support this, its sharia law
even after years of brainwashing, killing of opposition, torturing, arrestin & beating the IR still wasnt able to silence ppl. itll be overthrouwn. ppl of iran needed only 1 generation to come alive. my parents generation were too old to do anything but now the new generation is young & hopeful & they will overthrowh this regim. i highly doubt at that point IR will survive & if u really want change iman u know that khameni and these mulahs must be removed by force they wont go that easily
i do believe in god & i think god gave humans free will to chose. so if god has given me the free will how dare another man tell me what to do & think and force me to do it. if its my devine right to chose, whos khamenei or khomani to tell me what to think & force me. i respect their views as long as they dont disturb my privacy and my beliefs, they should do the same but they dont. thats my issue with the IR. religion is subjective and u cant force it on to ppl through governments. it wont work
in regards to arab culture. notice how alot of arab words r used by mullahs in fact i was watching IR tv on the birth of imam husain and they were singing in ARABIC. what hypocracy when a helicopter is called balgarg. so its not ok to call a helicopter its name, or computer should be called ryane, in order to keep persian alive but arabic is some how ok. but its ok to have arabic songs on PERSIAN TV. why is that? does god only understand arabic and aprove of that particular language?
U say IR does things u dont aprove in name of islam, so what makes u think ppl wont get tired of the IR. wat makes u think ppl want the last standing theocracy in the world. what makes u think shia is the only way. thats a bit self involved & self ritious justbecause u follow it & believe it then its good for all. why not wat i believe it thats nothing. thats why religion shouldnt b anissue & not be forced by government as noone knows whats the right religion or even how to interpet it correctly
i accept that god is better than humans. But he is not running any government directly on earth yet, not the IR either. so why r we talking about god? we r all human and thats it. can u say that khamenei or u know a 100% what god wants? i guess not, so how can anyone act as gods agent? how can khamenei interepret islam? and u accept that. and not montazeris? montazeri is even more educated in islam. see please dont bring relgion in this. it is not about relgion
u cant bring god into a conversation as ur understanding of "gods will" will always comeup when i give factual info. so please dont use god or religion, becasue we both know god is not run IR, its humans and humans r not perfect. Noone knows what belief is right. at the end of the day religion put aside u have to look at cold hard historical facts and judge them according to human understanding. gods will is not involved in our conversation. that is the trick that ancient prists used now its old
in quaran it says "MEHDI" will come, NOT the 12th IMAM. but shia view the 12th imam as mehdi. so thats their belief it might be right or wrong. sunni dont see it that way. so how can u say that shia is 100% currect for all? U should say shia islam is 100% currect to you. so in my view relgion can not be forced and implemented as ppl have different views and all views have to be respected. and if u say ur way is right and say because god says, that is not currect. do u agree with my statement?
No god hasnt clearly pointed out the way & if he has there r so many out there that a person can not know for sure which 1 is currect. thats y i say its a personla matter & noone can force others to follow a certain path or religion. also when u have only a few "religious scholars" they will munipulate religion, so there is no way u can say with 100% that ur religion or belief is good for all humanity. can U? to me thats fundamentaly wrong & there is no way i can see it ur way
NO man or community can know for sure what god wants a 100%, that is why claiming that we know exactly what god wants, because he clearly outlines it, is not a currect statement. why do montazeri and khamenie argue? they r both islamic scholars and in fact montazeri is older and has higher rank. so even in shia islam there r arguements of what god wants and this argumement will never end until god comes and settles it.
i pick on khamenei because he claims to know what god wants but he doesnt know. please tell me where in the quaran it says that the 12th imam is coming back at armogetan. im not arguing with this belief, its a belief and thats why its personal, but if its forced on me then i will argue my side for not believing it. u can believe it and it might be right for u, but for me its not. so whos to say ur religion is the right one? just because u believe it is? im sure christians beilive the same thing
again IR is just as human made as any other regim and as u have said it will fail. if u think about it there is no way in a million years that IR coud reach "oneness" with god. only god is at that high level. we r all human and hence believing that by giving a chance to IR to become absolute divinity is not realistic, in fact history has shown that the mixture of relgion and politics corrupt eachother. so it would be good for both islam and iranian politics to seperate themselves.
who is to say that islam is the right path and shia in paticular and islamic republics understanding of it specifically. u cant say that if the IR improves it will become a devine eutopia, in fact the actions of IR that i have listed & will list more later, show that it is actually a very corrupt and non-religious regim. now if u believe that some how IR is holy because they say they r and they have a better understanding of god then thats a belief that i just cant agree with. i only see actions
and then u left iran so u really didnt have to deal with the economy. im not critisizing u, just assuming, i might be wrong. if so please tell me.
my family left because of the economy not the religion issue. if IR didnt mismanage resources & create a good future for iranians then i wouldnt have a problem. thats why im using facts to show how badly theyve damage economy and society due to poverty. so please no more religion and more economical and social issues. thanks, khoda hafez
i know u have ur idealogy but to be frank ur parent from europe probabely supported u when u went to iran. they used the money they made in europe (its hard to get a summer job in iran). so im sure u had a good economic life in iran because of ur parents but if all ur family lived in iran & had financial probems then u would have seen things diferenty. c the main issue in iran is economy and mismanagement of it & corruptio. if u didnt have to deal with poor fianancial situation im sure irans ok.
a regim that has to resort to god & relgion to justify its actions instead of using logic cannot survive long. this is where the phrase "only god can help us" comes into play. in this world our kids have to eat. an iranian who cant feed his kid but sees hezbolah & palesinians get iranian money will be upset dont u think? when youth cant find jobs because IR doesnt invest in irans infrustructure would be upset dont u think? these can not be explain by relgion so please lets use facts not beliefs
religion can be social but can not be forced socialy. u can not force a person to be "religious" is they dont want to. if u force a person to pray and in their heart they dont believe it that is not really praying. this actually causes lies and corruption as ppl will prettent to pray over time. so yes it is social but can not be FORCED sociay. it is up to a person to participate, u cant for them. im sure u agree with that. so pleas lets remove religion and talk about facts and out nations future
and to point out again how the quaran also agures against IR giving money to palestine instead or IRANIANs ill quote quaran: firs ur family, then friends, then ur next door neighbour, ....
so even the quaran the islamic holy book forbids the islamic republic to give money to palestinains instead of iranians first. so please lets not get into religion. lets use fact &use our HUMAN judgement and not assume that religion has to do with this. please let keep on the topic of the regim not religion
religion has been used throughout history to justify many horrible things. but when it comes down to it it was a HUMAN not god that did those things. and NOONE can say he was religiously correct. but on a human level we can judge. im using human standard, i cn not use the world view and assume what god wants. i can use facts and say according to human standards giving away iranian money is wrong. thats the best i can do as a human
lets talk about the facts about the IR. do u agree?
i really cant argue relgion, im not god to say who is right or wrong.
i however can use historical facts to prove what the IR did in the last 30 years. now if want that we can argue about the IR actions. but religion is not related to it. at least not in my view. this is not a holy war with khamenei as the all knowing Imamand US the yazid as the IR says. it is a simp,e case of a government and its actions in the world and internal stage.
in 1000s of years ppl have descussed religion and god and havent come to a conclusion and this relgion talk s not really related to IR. i cant argue with ur beliefs. i might be wrong or u might be wrong only god knows. but what i saying is that the IR is selling our country piece by peice. destroying the economy and the future. we can argue that with facts. relgion can not be its a belief.
iman religion can not be forced on to others. a chritian migh think hes religion is better should he force it on u in europe? that is what IR is doing but not because it cares for ppl but just to controlppl and keep the power. so again religion is not the issue its the way IR is treating iran and iranians
yes humans are subject to mistakes thats why there can be only 1 human in charge. such as the supreme leader khamenie. thats why democracy a real one is needed fr ALL PPL to chose. not a supreme leader. we both know in iran the presindtila election is BS as khamenei is the altimate leader
iman religion is not in question. islam is good if not misused. christianity is good if not misused. i have no probems. but when it comes to the IR it is misused. and i truely dont think the islamic republic is islamic so ther is no point in talking about religion. i never said i hate islam or anything u can see all my postings. all im saying the IR that happens to have "islamic" in its name did these and i point out their faults.
but our subject is IR not religion. as i explained its wha they havedone to iran for the last 30 years thats under scroteny not religion. i accept any religion. whatever makes ppl believe in god and do goo and not harm others is beautiful. im talking about IR
iman. like i said if we use the "morality of the world" concept im sure that bush and the zionist can have their own way of spining it. i dont care what the morality of the world is. if a child is killed its wrong. do we both agree on that?
see iman we said wed tak about facts. i can discuss religion and i dont wish to. im descussing what the IR has done and is doing. im talking about facts. i cant getinto religion, its up to u what u believe. all i can argue with is what IR is doing i can give u facts. if u r saying tht religion excuses what they do then i dont think we can realy agree.
IR is so mismanaged the head of IRGCs a VET. IR is based on mismanagement, stealing, lies & bribing russia, china, europe & arabs, while iranians r poor, to protect itself so how can it stay alive unless it keep lying, stealing & bribing?i dont think improvement can come unless a complete demise of this regim occurs. unfortunately theyve done damage already & i hope our ppl can someday fix it. these r the facts to support my aguement. i have more if u wish. im goin to let u type now. take care
if u think that ppl like me feel this way that they r going to give a chance to the IR to fix itself? after 30 years of lies and corruption ppl hate the government. even if they did IR wot be able to do it as it is fundamentally corrupt. leaders r corrupt and cant go back, like the mofia. alot of ppl want to kill them. all those parents that lost their kids for whatever reason. so no i dont think this system can be "improved" and religion is not a factor, its what they did for the last 30 years
i care about irans future, not religion, as i have mentioned. it is easy to come in front of a camera & pray & say nice things. but when u made dealswith the devil(russia, china and europe) and sell ur country piece by peice that is when u show ur true self. they destroyed even islam. they sold their country to everyone and destroyed the future by lies, thats sad my friend. im in canada but my family and friend and all iranians im sad for them, they deserved better than this
these r the issues my friend. r u into planes? i am, u know the saegheh fighter jet is actualy F5 fighter with its tails bent a bit & they tell ppl this is IRANIAN MADE. look at their pictures ull c i cant make that up. these r te lies they tell our ppl. they lie & to me thats the biggest sin of all to destroy a nations future & lie to them. oil that is in caspian see is now russian and azarbayajani. the oil in persian gulf is arab now. i care for my countries future & these ppl destroying it
but i can argue with facts. ike before the islamic revolution iran owned 50% of the caspian see and now because of irans weakness and alliance with russia it has less that 16%. i can say that before the revolution iran has enough oil refinaries and now it has to buy gas from the WEST. the haft-tappe project that made enough suger for all of iran is now destroyed. the azerbiajanis & qataris r way ahead of iran in extracting oil from the persian gulf & caspian sea
and i dont think this system can be improved as it is fundamentaly flaud and corrupt and i will give u many illustrations in our conversation.
hence it must be overthrown. when u have only 1 person on top who doesnt want to let go of power there will be no improvement. and as long as rahbar is there how can there be more political freedoom? so i dont think improvements are possible in this regim not in a 1000 years. the problmes rn small details. they r huge
didnt the quran say that even one inocent dead is like the death of the whole world? and i know u do like zionists for killing muslims. and u aprove of the islamic republic cutting relation with them for that fact. are all my statements true here?
now let me ask u this since u know islam better than me. isnt it the responsibility of a muslim to help all muslims in need and not help the enemies of muslim?
just like how islamic republic is helping palestine. is it a duty of a muslim to help other muslims if they are being opressed?
forcing ppl to wear hijab is as bad as reza shah pulling it off. u cant change ppls beleifs by forcing them and thats what the islamic republic "says" it doing. although im sure they dont even believe in wha they say. i say islamic republic becasue thats what its called if it was called hoho republic i would call it that. this has nothing to do with religion but the reality. u cant hide facts with religion. the regim just uses religion to rule ppl and i think thats the most unholy thing.
in iran they aressted my aunt, for not wearing the hejab "properly" . they arrested my uncle and others for having a wedding. they didnt let my dad get his specialist in lung (he is doctor) because he wore jeans at work. they arrested my counsing for having long hair. now which one of these are done in a truely free country? what business is it of the government to tell ppl what to wear, how long the hair is. show me in quaran where it says men cant have long hair or wear jeans
bale ke mitonin. shoma irani hastin va mitonin harchi ke deletoon mikhad rajebe keshvaretoon begin.
as long as its with reason and facts not just random stuff. but if i dont agree i too can argue. if thats ok. i know ur going to argue with my views. i have no right to stop u. but before u defend the islamic republic like sohail here, u dont live in iran, so again it makes me ask the age old question, if islamic republic is so good why not iran? i think this is a logical question. dont u?
mamnun az jvabe manteghitun, nemidunin che lezati mideh adam ba ye mokhalefe mantegh barkhord koneh wa na ba yek mowafeghe zabun nafahm ;)
Anyway, lets make a deal that its ok to agree to disagree :)
At the end of the day we both claim to want the best for IRAN.
My father was working for the Iran Air and in a mission to europe since late 70s for a long time. This is why i was raised in europe and married with a none iranian.
(Although i had to say now she is more iranian than alot of us)
u have been out of iran since 70s. sorry but did ur dad go for shah or islamic republic to europe?
i came to canada when i was 13. so i was in iran and my parents were definately in iran and saw what the system does. sorry i dont mean to be critical or rude but u have to agree if u havent lived in iran since the 70s what real perspective of the internal iranian situation can u have? and according to ur profile ur 30 something so essentialy u have been outside of iran all ur life.
ok my friend. go ahead, i would love to hear ur point of view on this topic. im sure it will be interesting. maybe ull tell me something i dont know. i could be wrong, im human after all. maybe ull open my eyes. so please put forth ur views.
before i proceed, since i am gonna use some elements in my discussion, would you tell me whether you are a theist or not and if yes which one?? (faith, idiology, world view...!!)
btw, the word limit on youtube to comment is really annoying and bothering. is it ok with you to cntinue this on e-mails (personnal messages) not to be limited by 500 words??
well. im typing here for others to see and know about iran. if we use email what is the point. both me and u think we r currect. the reason i post on youtube is for others to learn about iran and not to get one side of the story, like this video here. emailing back and forth will not really do that. so please lets use youtube for everyone to see not just me and u. this way others will be informed too. i think its worth the inconvinience in order to inform others of facts. do u agree?
i do believe in god but i dont c god as the islamic republic sees god. im not athiest. i dont follow any religion as i think all religions have been corrupted by man. i try to b good & i think thats wat any god would want. these specific ritauls in religions r man made and isnt nessecary. helping others and not hurting them & being kind & respectfuls enoguh. being grateful for what u have is enough. i dont think i have to pray in arabic in order for god to understand. i think persians good
man haz az adamhye manteghi khosham miad va dost daram bahashoon harf beznanam. shoma harchi deletoon mikhad begin. man goosh midam. agar deletoon mikhad ham be man message konin. har kari ke dost darin bokonin. vali agar inja benevisin baghiye ham mibinan va ye chizi yad migiran. ya az shoma ya az man, che irani che khareji
Unfortunatelly not (but relatively the only one having approximate closeness) this still doesnt matter. What i was trying to pursue bymy question was to establish the basis of a concept and trying to conclude that the curren system COULD and should be amended and improved and not owerthrown....
But well we didnt start the talk yet, did we ?
To regulate my approach i need to know what we have in common and accept it as our platform.
FYI, i truly believe in the basis of Shia Islam...
see i dont know why u would bring religion in this. its a question of wether or not iranian ppl r treated right. isnt that what a government should do?
see let me argue that zionism is right accoeding to silam (not me)
isnt moses a prophit in islam? did he bring torah? didnt its say that palestine is where the jews belong? and where did it in quaran say palestinians belong in plaestine. see with religion u can munipulate things. i dont agree i say religion aside look at the facts
relgion is a personal matter and i dont have problems with any. its not suppose to be involved in governments. relgion is not a social thing its between man and god. as long as u do god and don harm others the government should not tell u who or how to pray. who is to say what religion is right. no one is god
Still, youhave not answered my question :) i just wanted to know how i have to approach this dscussion...anyway...from your answers i would assume:
You are a Theist, but wont limit your view to one highway of approach, rather accept an atheistic law for the society and the elimination of religion from the public life
You said the right thing: Gov should treat the ppl right. but the whole conflict from Adam(as) till now is the definition of "RIGHT"...
3)Talmud clearly FORBIDS the jew to creat/establish any government for the Jews (as a punishment) until the emergence of the Moshiach (משיחא) (And remember the Jews dont recognize Jesus(as) as the Messiah anyway)
4)Quran is not a scoence/history or literature book, rather it is a book of principles which by its definitions what is going on is totally wrong
5)have search with these key words "jews against israel" and have a look
6)The claimed FACT is to define: RIGHT, GOOD, HARM (!!!)
sorry i left i had to go. no im not an athiest. i do believe in god but i think al religions r man made and corrupt. if not initially then over time they became. and i really dont think the issue with the islamic repblic is islam its how it operates. i will explain 1 example that will prove that this "islamic" republic is not that islamic.
i asked u if muslims should help any muslim they can and i know the answer is yes. now lets consider 2 cases in which MUSLIMS were killed and how the islamic republic reacted. first lets look @ wat happened in china few weeks ago. over 200 chinese muslims were killed by COMMUNIST. i was watching islamic republic tv on satelite they only talkbout it for 10sec and acted like it was nothing. well shouldnt they have made it a big deal like palestine? unarmedmuslims being killed by armed communists.
second: remember chechnia? who was the biggest killer of chechens who happen to be muslims? RUSSIA and the leader at that time PUTIN. and where did ahmadinead go right after the elections? RUSSIA and whos hand did he shake? PUTIN. so how come iran is good allies with china & russia if they just like israel and US kill muslims? iran should have atleast closed ambasies there for protest. c this is why i dont think tese ppl mean what they say. and no religion has anything to do with our discussion.
religion does more that define ggod andharm. it makes u pray a certain way and makes u clense ur self a cretain way. it makes u pay ppl money. these in my view are not nessecary. yes religion does talk about good but lso adds things that r not explainable by logic. so but like i sadi our decussion is about government not religion. i am not going to talk about religion like i said it is a personal choice and for governments to decide. if ppl want to go to hell ts their choice not khameneis.
2nd, all i am trying is to establish a ground to proceed and not jumping from subject to subject, judging actions here and there.
If you remember a while ago i answered that i do agree that the actions of the Iranian regime are not that islamic either rather it is the closest one, i continued...tht this regime should be mended and not owerthrown.
Correctly you mentioned the duty of the govs to protect the rights of its ppl and ppl to do good
the words "Right", "Good" "Bad" "Harm" "Happiness"...seem to be extremely easy to understand but honestly when one looks into it and expands his vision from the size of a person to the scale of humanity from beginning of the history to its end...then we will see that these words (Morality) are not that easy to be defined or recognized.
Theist ppl believe in the absoluteness of human morals by all time, and atheists claim EVERY THING is relative, even morality, even good and bad
i simply can not accept the relativity of moraity, because to me this is against the absolute and the indefinite(!!) mercy of God. Since, even todays the humans knowledge and dominance over himself is nothing close to absolute and totally deficient, HOW can we claim that our todays actions (as a person or government) and understanding will lead us to (EVEN!!) a materialistic salvation (yet forget about the spiritual dimension of humanity)
It is due to the absolute justice of God not to leave humanity to itself and basically dont care at all. in this manner, ALL RELIGIONS and ALL REVELATIONS include a personal as well as a public (group, soceity...) dimmension. IF one claims that God has left humanity to itslef, and there is no other way but the (TEST - FAIL - LEARN) system, it means that he has not known God and God's justice and mercy.If one accepts the justice and mercy of God to be absolute then he HAS to submit to it
a proof to this claim is: imagin a person believing in a prophet and his religion. such person would never challenge nor doubt the orders of his prophet. even if he asks questions it would be only to increase his own knowledge and not to discard the prophets order. If one objects a prophet, it simply ,eans he has no belief in his prophecy.
Considering all these...No MAN, No Government, No Group CAN NOT define the GOOD, HARM, RIGHT....for humanity unless he uses a divine source
Having said that, it is everyones RESPONSIBILITY not only to act according to those morals but also try to spread it through the methods it approves. To be frank by the scale of all religions the importance of society is much more than individuality...
All governments should aim to follow the morality of their own revelations if they truly want to follow success...other wise, humans are subject to mistake and at least i, am not ready to leave my destiny in the hands of fallible ppl.
in these short lines i tried to tell you my point of view why religion is not only NOT SEPERATE from the public life (..governance...) but actually is considered as the back bone of it.
I dont want to be a soliloquy, so i will wait for your comments to proceed.
i have replied to ur comments. i didnt want to email u all of them so im just sending u this. please lets talk about facts thats what we agreed on, i really can not and do not want to argue religion, it is not my place to, im not god. but ill use historical facts to prove my point and not religion the we can use our HUMAN understanding and judge, me, u or khamenei r not god and cannot judge on a religious or godly perspective nd assume what god wants. were only human. take care :)
my passage was based on pure logic and human understanding (world view)
i didnt discuss God's logic...i didnt ask you to judge anyone...
I have presented you a simple logic (human logic) trying to proove that humankind by its own has no authority or knowledge and to define "RIGHT", "GOOD" , "BAD"...
and since these definitions are the essence of governance, any government based and rooted from human's understanding is doomed to fail.
We have not started about You, Me or Khameneyi..yet
so then the Islamic republic is doomed to fail as it is also based and rooted on human understanding, even if it is said to be based on human understanding of islam, it is still based on a HUMAN definition of good and bad, god doesnt run the IR, it humans. Even if khamenei and all of the islamic republic leaders kill themselves they wont be able to have the knowledgge of god. therefore by ur logic the IR is doomed to fail.
:) you are toooooo hurry arnt you ;) didnt we agree to have a step by step approach or is it me being delusional. It's kindda funy how you pick on Khameneyi ;)
Anyway,
1)If you dont accept by LOGIC regarding the inability of mankind to define "RIGHT", "GOOD", "BAD"...please provide your logic. It was supposed to be a logical fair talk, right?
2)I claim since God has revealed to us the definition of those phrases in the clearest way. It is very mch possible for everyone (willing) to carry on
i agree that humans cant know anything. also i dont think that een if all humans combine they cant possibly know what god wants. do u agree?
there can never be a purely devine government on this plannet, do u agree?
also as i mentioned before even if religions r not corrupted over time. many ppl have different understanding of the same relgion. so who is right?in islam there r many interperations, hence no on can agree, because NOONE KNOWS WHAT GOD WANTS
sorry for my long delay. i was kindda busy with some other work...
here i am again :)
Re "Hmans CANT know anything" i dont agree. as time passes and our scientific knowledge expands, so does our info. But remember science has no morality in it.
I do agree that either 1 person, or all humanity are incapable to realize the quality of God and hence "what god wants". And this is exactly my point. since such afairs are out of our reach, God being the merciful will inform us by means about them
i do agree that even during Moses(as), Jesus(as), Mohammad(pbhf) there was not a pure (100%) divine governance. Since even if the head of the state had divine authority and support, yet the 2nd, 3rd...grade managers, leaders...are normal humans and hence subject to mistake and/or sin and this will (if not fully) to some extent disorient the path of the government.
you are right, many ppl have different understanding from the same religion, but this doesnt mean that the religion is not unified
for example: time ago, ppl were thinking the earth is the cente of the universe, some scientist prooved other ways...regardless who was right or wrong...the fact was still unified and ONE.
Difference is interpretation as you said is due to the lack of humans capacity and not a defect inthe religion itself. If one in all honesty, wisdome and fairness reviews the religions or atheism he will understand the truth no doubt (this i promis you) (if it was not so, it ment that God has left us alone)
to me God is THE MERCIFUL, OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT... and if God was to leave humanity without any support, lost in his own limits of knowledge with no protection or help this would be totally against his mercy or even the concept of creation.
Due to this, it is a definite that God would NEVER leave humanity to himself without any clear guidance.
In this sense it is very much obvious that whoever clearly looks and is fair, he will KNOW the truth and what God wants
u claim that god has defined them in the clearest way. no that is in correct. which one is the clear way? jeudism?christianity?islam?zoroastreanism? so which way r u talking about. im not sure even if shia islam is the right way, we as humans can fully understand what god wants. as each page in quaran is interepreted diferently by different ppl
im not debating religion anymore as i mentioned. i made my points & u made urs. i can talk about facts. religion & devine beings r not related to the IR. 99% of ppl realize this is not a spritual matter but rather a hold on power by ppl who r power hungry & use religion to hide behind. thats all. again i can argue facts & IR actions NOT religion. if u wish we can do that, NOT RELIGION. again noone can say shia islam is the right way FOR ALL OF HUMANITY especially velayate faghihs version of it
According to my understanding the IR fundation was based on the SHIA Islamic faith and the concept of Imamate. there are 2 issues:
1)If you are against this base we can carry on and im quite sure we would reach a common understanding
2)If you accept this base but object the method it has been carried out, then we are on the same page (being so i claimed that the system must be kept but amended)
3)I dont believe in "relative morals" (although following any moral is better than none) and
...and am sure that if our fairness in logic is kept in the same way we have been up to now, you wont reject my reasoning for the authority of the Shia Faith and its universality...but that is to be proven only if you are interested to continue this :)
But i claim ABSOLUTE justice, mercy, power and authority for God and the rest is just diversities from this stem :)
iman as i mentioned several times the basis of religion is irrelavent as it does not relate to me hypocretical and brutal things that the IR does. for example the relationship with russia, why is ahmadinejad shaking hands with putin the biggest killer of musims? this shows how truely devoted these ppl r to islam. so lets keep in mind that this is a man made government
unfortunately only god can create a fully devine government and to me anyone else who claims to come even close to gods devine rule is a sinner. hence IR is a hypocrete and a sinnfull system to claim to represent god when in fact it can not possibly do so
Well, i never defended the actions o the givernment as for in many cases are not defendable...what i was trying to establish has actually nothing to do with this particular government, rather the necessity of the establishment of RELIGOPOLITICAL systems.
If you ask do i consider the current IR a religopolitical sstem:NO.
It was once...but not anymore...
Does this mean we have to give up on such systems:No
To me such system is important..this s why i always said IR needs amendments
IR was based on lies both before and after its conception. again im against any system that claims to do gods work, as it can not possibly know all. IR is fundamentally corrupt and it will not be amended. as i said i doubt u really had to deal with financial and economic hardships in iran as ur family in europe supported u. so it is easy for u to support the government as their poor management and mishandling of iranian resources did not affect u personaly. u see my point?
Your claim as my family supporting me in europe is baseless...i thought i made it clear, that my family was in Iran at least since Khatami era...during my univ years i did every possible job in Iran...we are not used to get pocket money...translation, lab, adds...even walking in the streets during summer and recording the number of the paper cubicles for the "Sazmane Amare Iran", guess how much ;) 1000Tomans/day, the best job i had was to b the QC head of a pharmacutical co,180,000Toman/month
i didnt want to keep my autobigrahy online so i had to delete it, bt you must haveit in your mail box...go through it one more time and you wll see what i said
so ur telling me with 30,000 tomans a dmonth(even if u worked all day) u lived in iran. is that what u mean. and ur parents did not ehlp u. u need at least 500,000 to have the most basic life. iman in iran the youth have to be supported by parents, so they did support u. and according to u u move to iran just a few years before university, so i assume ur parents worked in europe, even if they moved with u to iran ,
u know the famous persian saying" neshesti dore godi migi lengesh kon" u tell the iranian population that has suffered under this regim to forgive it & amend it? this regim wil b removed & the hatred that pppl have of it will not allow them to be civil. i have nothing against religion, but again hiding behind "GOD" is not the right way to run the country as ppl will get smarter & realize. IR is not & WILL not be devine, NO human or man made system will be.
bawar kon man age wasate goud nabasham, kenaresh ham nistam ;)
The least DIRECT benefit of amending ANY governing system will be reflected towards the public itself...so amending the system is nothing for the system...but for the public...
Your claim that this regime will be removed is subject to time and other events...lets see ;)
i do agree that man made systems wont be...this is why all systems must be related to a divine source
how do u assume that a person in charge will not misuse the term `religion`and turn it into a dictatorship, as it is in IR. if ppl blindly follow the `religious leaders`then what garaunti is it for them not to mislead. again a devine source`so u assume because u take shia islam as devine source then all must agree with u. isnt that a bit selfish. whos to say thats the right way. not me, not u. so again yah devine is good but who knows what DEVINE really is, not HUMANS, only god
i always make this example: If you keep the BEST meet in summer in open air..it will be rotten. EVERY HUMAN is subject to control (sure power is addictive or corruptive)
You know, my brain tells me God is merciful, omni...and all love....to me it is impossible fr God to leave humanity to iteself alone with his deffected knolwedge and ability...God will (has) provided us means of realization...which we (all) have to find them...
as you know even in science or philosophy there are different ideas (sometimes fully contradicting each other) (e.g. earth being the center of the universe, the sciences of KIMIA, MASS to be absolute...) your question of "whos to say thats the right way. not me, not u" is valid...but only if we have had not looked into this issue...my point is that IF ppl WERE to look fairly with no connection to their traditions, likes, attractions, desires...it is very clear
sikhs believe that all muslims have to b killed due to their treadition, becuase muslims kiiled them back in the dya.
IMAN how about u tell me what is the right path for ALL of humanity. is it shia islam. btw shia islam is one of the smallest groups as oppose to sunni or christianity. so u tell me is it ok for a SHIA government to rule the ppl. if so, should all ppl convert to shia. if not what should the government do somethings cannt b scientifically argued. like if mahdi is coming
I will answer to all your comments one by one, but since you have criticised A whole history in your comments such diaogue wont lead us no where it must be guided...anyway:
Did muslims kill innocent ppl??YES
Was it islamic?NO
Should islam be blaimed for this?NO
Is Shia Islam a bold rightway:YES(ido claim so, oben to debate)
Does quantity matter?NO
Should all ppl convert to Shia?NO
not everything is scientific, can science talk about morality, love, responsibility?
well if u claim the regim is to be amened, i get to claim it is to be overthrown:) so if amending the system is good for the public why didnt they amend the monarchy. just because these ppl claim to be religious, but do horible things they must be amened. just because its called islamic republic it must be amended, not for their actions. how does that help the poor ppl. again im not so sure that humans can decide what is devine and how it should be implemented.
again i do agree with you that even monarchy could be amended (e.g. UK), as long as it is not a system of a monolog.i didnt live during the Shah time (so i cant be authorized to say whether the Shah system could or couldnt) but in general it needed fundamental changes (btw when i say the IR needs to amended i mean it must be well shaken, somehow turned upside down, to return to its roots and concept)
i agree with you that nams dont matter at all, ACTIONS TALK (and i know this is your point) :)
i do love the concept, the base and the funding idea of the IR. To me it is THE ONLY lasting manner, if it as to be caried ut correctly and accurately...
according to islam in the end of time mahdi(not 12th imam specifically) is comming and then christ is the last to come and rid the evil. so why not christianity. mohamed is not coming jesus is. so why not christianity. im not saying ur wrong but im saying any religion can be argued to be the right one. so i dont know what u mean by devine. if ony shia is devine then i do not accept that.
Islam is from the word "taslim", submission. In this way, who eer submits to God's will is a muslim, so all prophets were muslims (as you know Jesus to christians is not a messenger but THE LORD and/or SON OF LORD(!!))
1)More than enough evidence is available to proove Mahdi(aj) is THE 12th Imam
2)You have to tell me what Jesus is to you so we can cntinue (LORD or a Messenger from the LORD)
3)According to Bible(OT&NT)Christianity taday, is nothing what Jesus presented
The idealogy of IR is based on fundamental issues that i cant agree with: its based on pure capitalism (khomanie objecting to the white revolution)& classism. its based on sexism(women half men) religious superiority(shia better than others) corruption & mismanagement. anti-iranian actions & no nationalism(banning of treaditional iranian activities, 13 be dar) finally the overliance on god to defend any unexplainable action. what part is there to salvage? what part of the system is good?
i have talked about the chinese a few weeks back too. no mosque and churches like I said r for money grabbing. so u think wahabism is not the right path? only shia? how r u so sure? again who is to say what culture is good or not? khomani wanted to remove norroz and make 22 bahman the new years. so what is wrong with norooz? and u urself talk about how ppl like treadition and now u say some r bad. so which one is it?
1)i reject wahabism by all means with logic and mind.
2)religion is a subject which could be approached extremely simply through mind, logic and the phylosophy. extremely easy...if one gets out of the borders of logic...that religion is a myth and not a religion, for example: few comments ago i asked you a question, relating the defnition of God, concept of creation and its connection with leadership and governance. please answer it clearly
3)Khomeyni never attempted to change the IR identity
Khomeyni's first PM was Mr. Bazargan ( ye kerewatie setiqeye hesabi)..when we was in the flight to Iran, he answered he has no special feelings about this...Even if he was to change norouz to anything (just for the sake ov the talk) he would choose an islamic event and not something pure nationalistic. Also remember that exept of the war events ALL other decissions were carried out through elections by his time. As i said NOROUZ is not only correct, but even by HADITH one of the best symbolz
btw khomani uses mellis & mojahedin to come to power later he killed them or got rid of them somehow. like hitler used SA then used SS to get rid of them. maybe u should stop seeing leaders of IR as "holy men"& more like lying politicians. khomani used us all & lied to us. like i said hadith & stories made by mullahs dont explain injustice & crimes done by IR. khomany, khamenei, rafsanjani all killers that pioneered IR. they will all go 2 hell, along with IR & the just god will c to that im sure
usually i reply comment by comment. today though, i read all your comments together first...stood up, had some drinks...read them all again but still couldnt get over my disappointement.
It was as if ALL my comments were in russian or something. I know my english is crap, but didnt expect it to be so deterrent. As you confessed, i never claimed absolute knowledge, righteousness...
Yes, i always say, as i believe, as i think...(i also said that the authority of each law is valid as long as it is dominant in compare to other ideologies)...
I never rejected Norouz, 13bedar, 4shanbesoori,Shabe Chele...and yet you projected me as a refuter...
i never based anything in this talk on HADITH, or even Quran...
I also never defended any current politician what so ever in the IR....
I never labeled tham as holy (in the other hand i requested amendments)...
u defended khomani, u implied that IR is on the right path just anamendment will fix it. becasue they r using "godly" rules. so all 3 of the above u did.
well u said not all treaditions r good & for the betterment of future generations they must be changed?
do u want me to link all these comments? or do u remember?
i never claimed that anyone as to stay home and God will sort everything out...my statements were all about GUIDANCE from God(which is SHOWING THE PATH, and not WALKING THE PATH)..and yet you thought somehow i ment ppl have no FREE WILL
It truely seems to be the fault of my communication (english/(even maybe)persian)... it has been a while i wanted to document my believes so maybe this is a good excuse...i will upload it on a website and will inform you to have a look if you are interested...
tonly fault of ur arguements that u dont explain what makes IR the right path. if u dont agree with all the faults that i pointed out about IR then wat parts of the IR r good to amend?again please name a couple of their laws & rules that differ from other systems that make IR better choice. please dont say i like the concept if it was implemented properly. name 3 4 laws that puts IR ahead of others please. then ill get ur point. please do this, answered ur questions to the best of my ability
btw, in a month or so i will be in UK(LDN) for a short time to meet my inlaws...would be nice to meet, if you had time :)
Although we can agree to disagree, but since we carried this talk without getting out of the zone, i am extremely happy. my only grief is that obviously i was not able to transfer even the basis of my faith and ideology to you
(since i was not capable to do so, i will stop proceeding unless i have uploaded my text online)
well u keep asking me about god. i explained my views on god. even though it had nothing to do with IR. but i did. now im asking u what part of IR system do u like. please dont say the concept. what particular laws that r not currently in other countries do u like? u have to explain the difference between IR & other systems in order to defend them. u can just say i like the idea. what particular 3 4 laws do u like?
well iman u make pretty strong claims for someone who agrees hes not all knowing. i said in Iran IR doesnt let sunnis build mosques u say because of wahabis & wahabis in UR OPONION r 100% wrong. so what am i to conclude. so u agree that IR does discrminate but its ok because to U THINK wahabism is wrong. so ur being selfish here right? whos to say who can be discremenated or not. u c my point?again please point out 3 or 4 particular laws in IR that makes ppl in iran want to amend them.
i have already answered this question of yours with a question: Is it ok if i establish a school and start teaching kids 1+1=5, or killing others is good, or fraud is perfect or teach con acts, or to spread HIV?? if you say yes, then... if you say no: then i would argue you are 1)stricting my FREE WILL, 2)you are enforcing your choice upon me, who are you to limit me??
i have said as long as u dont physically or mentally hurt ppl u have free will. how or to who i pray doesnt hurt others, does it? u r using wrong enaligies here.
please answer me on what particular laws and regulations in IR r good?
I see so then its ok let the government tell ppl how & to who to pray then ur explanation really clarified it. come on iman u know what i mean by free will im not a child u can fool with this commetn to be honest im a bit insulted. u know by free will i mean the choice to worship the way u want. also religion is not my issue with IR its the misuse. again please clarify the good laws and rule in IR.
Regarding the laws, my answer wont satisfy you in anyway, and we wont go further this is why i wanted to upload my views, fully publicly online and then proceed, but since you asked i will state some of them:
1)All of the judicary ruls (which are based on the Shia jurisprudence (there are 1000s of laws here and not 3-4 only)
2)The law of not recognizing the state of israel and all related stuff
3)the system of public---> appointing the council of experts--->appointing the leader
give me 2 or 3 out of the al of them since u like all u must know all. please name them, what is the difference between them and other laws in other countries? u have to clarify. u r being too general. say what makes law 200 for example better than laws in swiden. u have to explain cant just say all. id ont aprove of any so tell me 2 or 3 u particularly like then well talk about them. ok i have to go. take care
ok then ill live these statements here & others can judge which laws u aprove of. so u believe that if i kill a poor man & pay his family i should go free? u think that lashing is good? the MP law is not SHIA is was under shah. dont make up laws that ARE NOT SHIA here. also the MPs r useless as the supremeleader runs everything. and u want 1 guy to appoint half of the countries ruling party. ok iman if u love these laws u believe in the current system iof IR so u agree wih 99 of wat they do.
seems you dont have a clear vission from those ruls. No one can force anyone to accept any blood money...it is up to the reltives to ask either for revenge(better said Qesas) or for the blood money...still dont forget any crime has 2 phases (Private & Social) so in case the family accept the blood money, still the public prosecuter has the right to proceed with the punishment (accordingly)
Also refering to Pubic Opinion (in particular subjects) was from the beginning of islam and not only Shah
so u like a law that takes money from iranians who r 50% living under poverty line & giving it to ppl that never did anything for iran? again who is to judge who should be lashed or stomned u iman? or some other human? the only good law is the MP 1 that SHAH put in place not IR. well if thats ur views for ruling then i cant say much more. well let ppl decide if the want some guy on top to decide if they should be lashed or stoned or not or be free. if it was me i would chose the later.
funding org like Hezbolla...regardless of the moral side of it is a political act as well. Since the US has announced its annual 400M$ suport of regime change/since israel is actively attempting against the IR regime, the IR system sees itself obliged to act against them, even if it is by funding Hzbollah to put a pressure and balance the powersomehow(!!)
Also the constitution accepted after the revolution was based on many other versions frm other nations with a republic backgroud and not Shah
lol, so IR needs hezbollah & hamas to keep it in power instead of giving money to its own ppl to support it. well said. u r correct, the IR gives money to arabs to keep in power. therefore it doesnt care about iranian ppl but satying power. well said iman now ur getting the point. IR will give money to anyone russia, china, arabs to stay in power & doesnt care for its own ppl. yes ur absolutely currect IR is giving iranian money to arabs to ensure iranians dont overthrow it. good job, well put
for a short while i thougt you respected my point in waiting until i upload my idioly online...seems i was wrong. anyway.
I see you as an innocent, unexperienced kind person in these matters to e honest.
The matter of mutual political balance is something that even the super powers(??!!) do act upon when they face the least threat from any origin...seems you are too innocent to have been engaged in such matters. Its not about paying money to be kept on power my dear :)
i respect ur idioligy. but i dont think u respect mine when u claim that urs is godly & since i disagree mine isnt. isn t that what u r implying? u claim to know the right path & since i agree by association i dont? isnt that sort of insulting?
Rejecting ones idiology doesnt mean that you dont respect the person...I dont agree with my christian friends yet we spend wonderful times together, and honestly we enjoy it to the limit...
Yes, right, to me you are not on the right path, but this doesnt authorize me to disrespect you, dishonor you betray or abuse you...did i ever insult you??
Two scientists are not ncessary sharing the same point of view (each could claim to be correct) yet they can be friends...!!!simple
funny funny funny funny funny guy. The guy has done well bullshitting though. Sucking up to virtually every shady character to get money. Highly immoral but i guess you can't knock the fact that he has made loads of money out of it. Oh well...
theguvnorjimmy 1 year ago
He's talkin pure bulls**t...
Nattah01 1 year ago
Soo.. the others have no way of knowing that the election was fraud be Galloway is certain that the election process went as it should?
This doesn't add up.
Galloway...in your effort to try to stop bombing and even an occupation of Iran you shouldn't go so far as to lie.
Iran is no democracy.
Hirnlego999 2 years ago 2
@Hirnlego999
why dont people criticize saudi arabia, they can't even vote
StraussBR 1 year ago
@StraussBR
We're not being sold a war with Saudi Arabia atm. The war drumming on Iran have however been beating for many years now. I think it will happen, unfortunately.
Hirnlego999 1 year ago
@Hirnlego999
that is exactly my point, people demonize iran, yet they are the most democratic and free country in the persian gulf
if israel or US attack iran they will defend themselves ferociously and they have the right to,
Iran doesn't have a nuclear program, but if they be attacked they wil certainly start one
StraussBR 1 year ago
im going to conclude my arguements here by saying:
I dont believe that shia islam is the ONLY path to god. Islamic republic (not realyn islamic, in fact i think a bit satanic, if not completely) will go to Hell. God bless Iran & Iranians, their culture & freedoms & god protect Iran from all of the external & internal evil & opressors. thats my last comment here.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Theres only 90-100 million shias. 1 Billion sunnis, 1 billion Hindu & 3 Billion christians. For some reason u think that this small number of shia out of 6 billion r following the right path? NO iman, there is no 1 path, there r several. for u to claim a small sect of islam is 1 true path is jut incorrect. again its right for u, but not the entire world, U DONT KNOW U CLAIM U KNOW & U KNOW GOD, but in reality u have no idea. NEITHER DO I, thats why i dont interfear & judge others faith, BUT U DO
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
who should stay in power after the amendment? the supremeleader? mosavi? who?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
no ur english is very good, but it seems like somehow u r avoiding to telling me what is the clear path & what parts of IR u like u say idealogy, well i explained their idealogy then u say no those parts i dont like. well then which parts? give me 3 4 5 laws in IR that u like in particular that makes it better that anyother system in the world. then maybe ill understand.
u say u like the concept well what parts?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
isnt narration them same as hadith? and u say the dua for norooz is by an imam, how r u so sure that some mullah didnt just make that up?
again can u tell me what is the CLEA PATH?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
u said that according to narration from imam foreign influence is good. did u not say that?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
god has shown no clear path
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
iman they r carrying out the IR idealogy currectly, its the idealogy thats flaud. IRs based on made up facts & lies. from day 1therefore its their idealogy. they use religion to prolong their cancerous existance by claiming doing gods will this has happend 1000s of times in history. so nothing new. thats the way i c it, ok god is here but throughout history it was humans that had to get up & remove such evil governments with the help of god. god wont do it for us
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
not hidduism too many gods & sikhs hate muslims. jews mohamed didnt really like after medina. zoroastrianism well we can see norooz & chaharshambe sory as a symbols which r being attacked by. SO ONLY SHIA. no u dont think others r right in any way(not muslim, not sorrendering to god the rght way). thats IR idealogy is currect. u see my point? only shia in IR no other. that is dectatorship where even ur god & religion is hand picked for u by governemt. that to me is 100% incorrect & unholy
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
NO iman u dont think all muslim sects r equal as only the 12imam shia sect believes in 12th imam(sunni, wahabis dont agree with this)is to come & still hasnt (bahais think he already has). so u only believe in SHIA not any other kind. dont make it sound like u c others at an equal footing. shia doesnt accept other sects & for christiaity in islam jesus is NOT the son of god, but christian think so, so islam doesnt actually agree with contemporary christian views either
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
religious freedom is the path for humanity. a closed minded society will never get anywhere & IR is based on closeminded following of 1 path. thats not the way & it will fail history has shown & we both can c the fallout of it. the more ppl come out the more u can c the true face of IR shooting & killing & arresting. now ppl know the true face of khamenei & IR & they will crush it im sure of that. IRANIANS will crush this unholy government. yes god is alive & will help IRANIANS crush this cancer
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i dont believe in hadis, so if they say imam said this dua for norooz & imam said this about foreign influence i realy dont buy it. whos to say imam said this?who recorded it haids?use of religion & especially post-mohamad revolations & hadis isnt ment for ppl like me. so please dont say since imam sadeque said this then its ok. IR tried to brain wash me & my generation with this stuff & didnt work. use logic not hadis(its mnwriten)i dont accept it @ face value
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
how can i & iranians forgive these ppl they destroyed all we had, our history, culture, society, economy. they made iranians anxious, stressed & poor. look wat they did to our land iman & u think they should b amended? how can iranians forgive these monsters that sold our land piece by piece just to stay in power. they sold our caspian see to russia. our gulf to arabs & u want them to be amended because they say YA MAHDI, YA HOSSAIN. i doubt thats going to happen. iranians will tare them apart
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i believe in capitalism too, but not the kind that i could comit man slauter & pay the family & get off as it is in IR court system(khoonbaha) not a kind of capitalism that allows land lords to treat peasants as semislaves(before the white revolution that khomani opposed) IR has devalued human life where money can buy it. u can research it. in iran i can kill someone from poor family & pay them abit of money & i wont go to jail. so what kind of a law is that? do u support this, its sharia law
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
even after years of brainwashing, killing of opposition, torturing, arrestin & beating the IR still wasnt able to silence ppl. itll be overthrouwn. ppl of iran needed only 1 generation to come alive. my parents generation were too old to do anything but now the new generation is young & hopeful & they will overthrowh this regim. i highly doubt at that point IR will survive & if u really want change iman u know that khameni and these mulahs must be removed by force they wont go that easily
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i do believe in god & i think god gave humans free will to chose. so if god has given me the free will how dare another man tell me what to do & think and force me to do it. if its my devine right to chose, whos khamenei or khomani to tell me what to think & force me. i respect their views as long as they dont disturb my privacy and my beliefs, they should do the same but they dont. thats my issue with the IR. religion is subjective and u cant force it on to ppl through governments. it wont work
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
in regards to arab culture. notice how alot of arab words r used by mullahs in fact i was watching IR tv on the birth of imam husain and they were singing in ARABIC. what hypocracy when a helicopter is called balgarg. so its not ok to call a helicopter its name, or computer should be called ryane, in order to keep persian alive but arabic is some how ok. but its ok to have arabic songs on PERSIAN TV. why is that? does god only understand arabic and aprove of that particular language?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
U say IR does things u dont aprove in name of islam, so what makes u think ppl wont get tired of the IR. wat makes u think ppl want the last standing theocracy in the world. what makes u think shia is the only way. thats a bit self involved & self ritious justbecause u follow it & believe it then its good for all. why not wat i believe it thats nothing. thats why religion shouldnt b anissue & not be forced by government as noone knows whats the right religion or even how to interpet it correctly
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
and ur parents worked there no.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i do but u said u lived in europe until high school and ur 30 now so u were in europe for at least 15 16 years noÉ
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i accept that god is better than humans. But he is not running any government directly on earth yet, not the IR either. so why r we talking about god? we r all human and thats it. can u say that khamenei or u know a 100% what god wants? i guess not, so how can anyone act as gods agent? how can khamenei interepret islam? and u accept that. and not montazeris? montazeri is even more educated in islam. see please dont bring relgion in this. it is not about relgion
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
u cant bring god into a conversation as ur understanding of "gods will" will always comeup when i give factual info. so please dont use god or religion, becasue we both know god is not run IR, its humans and humans r not perfect. Noone knows what belief is right. at the end of the day religion put aside u have to look at cold hard historical facts and judge them according to human understanding. gods will is not involved in our conversation. that is the trick that ancient prists used now its old
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
in quaran it says "MEHDI" will come, NOT the 12th IMAM. but shia view the 12th imam as mehdi. so thats their belief it might be right or wrong. sunni dont see it that way. so how can u say that shia is 100% currect for all? U should say shia islam is 100% currect to you. so in my view relgion can not be forced and implemented as ppl have different views and all views have to be respected. and if u say ur way is right and say because god says, that is not currect. do u agree with my statement?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
No god hasnt clearly pointed out the way & if he has there r so many out there that a person can not know for sure which 1 is currect. thats y i say its a personla matter & noone can force others to follow a certain path or religion. also when u have only a few "religious scholars" they will munipulate religion, so there is no way u can say with 100% that ur religion or belief is good for all humanity. can U? to me thats fundamentaly wrong & there is no way i can see it ur way
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
NO man or community can know for sure what god wants a 100%, that is why claiming that we know exactly what god wants, because he clearly outlines it, is not a currect statement. why do montazeri and khamenie argue? they r both islamic scholars and in fact montazeri is older and has higher rank. so even in shia islam there r arguements of what god wants and this argumement will never end until god comes and settles it.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i pick on khamenei because he claims to know what god wants but he doesnt know. please tell me where in the quaran it says that the 12th imam is coming back at armogetan. im not arguing with this belief, its a belief and thats why its personal, but if its forced on me then i will argue my side for not believing it. u can believe it and it might be right for u, but for me its not. so whos to say ur religion is the right one? just because u believe it is? im sure christians beilive the same thing
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
again IR is just as human made as any other regim and as u have said it will fail. if u think about it there is no way in a million years that IR coud reach "oneness" with god. only god is at that high level. we r all human and hence believing that by giving a chance to IR to become absolute divinity is not realistic, in fact history has shown that the mixture of relgion and politics corrupt eachother. so it would be good for both islam and iranian politics to seperate themselves.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
who is to say that islam is the right path and shia in paticular and islamic republics understanding of it specifically. u cant say that if the IR improves it will become a devine eutopia, in fact the actions of IR that i have listed & will list more later, show that it is actually a very corrupt and non-religious regim. now if u believe that some how IR is holy because they say they r and they have a better understanding of god then thats a belief that i just cant agree with. i only see actions
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
and then u left iran so u really didnt have to deal with the economy. im not critisizing u, just assuming, i might be wrong. if so please tell me.
my family left because of the economy not the religion issue. if IR didnt mismanage resources & create a good future for iranians then i wouldnt have a problem. thats why im using facts to show how badly theyve damage economy and society due to poverty. so please no more religion and more economical and social issues. thanks, khoda hafez
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i know u have ur idealogy but to be frank ur parent from europe probabely supported u when u went to iran. they used the money they made in europe (its hard to get a summer job in iran). so im sure u had a good economic life in iran because of ur parents but if all ur family lived in iran & had financial probems then u would have seen things diferenty. c the main issue in iran is economy and mismanagement of it & corruptio. if u didnt have to deal with poor fianancial situation im sure irans ok.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
a regim that has to resort to god & relgion to justify its actions instead of using logic cannot survive long. this is where the phrase "only god can help us" comes into play. in this world our kids have to eat. an iranian who cant feed his kid but sees hezbolah & palesinians get iranian money will be upset dont u think? when youth cant find jobs because IR doesnt invest in irans infrustructure would be upset dont u think? these can not be explain by relgion so please lets use facts not beliefs
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
religion can be social but can not be forced socialy. u can not force a person to be "religious" is they dont want to. if u force a person to pray and in their heart they dont believe it that is not really praying. this actually causes lies and corruption as ppl will prettent to pray over time. so yes it is social but can not be FORCED sociay. it is up to a person to participate, u cant for them. im sure u agree with that. so pleas lets remove religion and talk about facts and out nations future
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
and to point out again how the quaran also agures against IR giving money to palestine instead or IRANIANs ill quote quaran: firs ur family, then friends, then ur next door neighbour, ....
so even the quaran the islamic holy book forbids the islamic republic to give money to palestinains instead of iranians first. so please lets not get into religion. lets use fact &use our HUMAN judgement and not assume that religion has to do with this. please let keep on the topic of the regim not religion
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
religion has been used throughout history to justify many horrible things. but when it comes down to it it was a HUMAN not god that did those things. and NOONE can say he was religiously correct. but on a human level we can judge. im using human standard, i cn not use the world view and assume what god wants. i can use facts and say according to human standards giving away iranian money is wrong. thats the best i can do as a human
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
lets talk about the facts about the IR. do u agree?
i really cant argue relgion, im not god to say who is right or wrong.
i however can use historical facts to prove what the IR did in the last 30 years. now if want that we can argue about the IR actions. but religion is not related to it. at least not in my view. this is not a holy war with khamenei as the all knowing Imamand US the yazid as the IR says. it is a simp,e case of a government and its actions in the world and internal stage.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
in 1000s of years ppl have descussed religion and god and havent come to a conclusion and this relgion talk s not really related to IR. i cant argue with ur beliefs. i might be wrong or u might be wrong only god knows. but what i saying is that the IR is selling our country piece by peice. destroying the economy and the future. we can argue that with facts. relgion can not be its a belief.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
iman religion can not be forced on to others. a chritian migh think hes religion is better should he force it on u in europe? that is what IR is doing but not because it cares for ppl but just to controlppl and keep the power. so again religion is not the issue its the way IR is treating iran and iranians
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
yes humans are subject to mistakes thats why there can be only 1 human in charge. such as the supreme leader khamenie. thats why democracy a real one is needed fr ALL PPL to chose. not a supreme leader. we both know in iran the presindtila election is BS as khamenei is the altimate leader
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
iman religion is not in question. islam is good if not misused. christianity is good if not misused. i have no probems. but when it comes to the IR it is misused. and i truely dont think the islamic republic is islamic so ther is no point in talking about religion. i never said i hate islam or anything u can see all my postings. all im saying the IR that happens to have "islamic" in its name did these and i point out their faults.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
but our subject is IR not religion. as i explained its wha they havedone to iran for the last 30 years thats under scroteny not religion. i accept any religion. whatever makes ppl believe in god and do goo and not harm others is beautiful. im talking about IR
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
iman. like i said if we use the "morality of the world" concept im sure that bush and the zionist can have their own way of spining it. i dont care what the morality of the world is. if a child is killed its wrong. do we both agree on that?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
see iman we said wed tak about facts. i can discuss religion and i dont wish to. im descussing what the IR has done and is doing. im talking about facts. i cant getinto religion, its up to u what u believe. all i can argue with is what IR is doing i can give u facts. if u r saying tht religion excuses what they do then i dont think we can realy agree.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
IR is so mismanaged the head of IRGCs a VET. IR is based on mismanagement, stealing, lies & bribing russia, china, europe & arabs, while iranians r poor, to protect itself so how can it stay alive unless it keep lying, stealing & bribing?i dont think improvement can come unless a complete demise of this regim occurs. unfortunately theyve done damage already & i hope our ppl can someday fix it. these r the facts to support my aguement. i have more if u wish. im goin to let u type now. take care
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
if u think that ppl like me feel this way that they r going to give a chance to the IR to fix itself? after 30 years of lies and corruption ppl hate the government. even if they did IR wot be able to do it as it is fundamentally corrupt. leaders r corrupt and cant go back, like the mofia. alot of ppl want to kill them. all those parents that lost their kids for whatever reason. so no i dont think this system can be "improved" and religion is not a factor, its what they did for the last 30 years
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i care about irans future, not religion, as i have mentioned. it is easy to come in front of a camera & pray & say nice things. but when u made dealswith the devil(russia, china and europe) and sell ur country piece by peice that is when u show ur true self. they destroyed even islam. they sold their country to everyone and destroyed the future by lies, thats sad my friend. im in canada but my family and friend and all iranians im sad for them, they deserved better than this
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
these r the issues my friend. r u into planes? i am, u know the saegheh fighter jet is actualy F5 fighter with its tails bent a bit & they tell ppl this is IRANIAN MADE. look at their pictures ull c i cant make that up. these r te lies they tell our ppl. they lie & to me thats the biggest sin of all to destroy a nations future & lie to them. oil that is in caspian see is now russian and azarbayajani. the oil in persian gulf is arab now. i care for my countries future & these ppl destroying it
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
*NOT for governments to decide.
but i can argue with facts. ike before the islamic revolution iran owned 50% of the caspian see and now because of irans weakness and alliance with russia it has less that 16%. i can say that before the revolution iran has enough oil refinaries and now it has to buy gas from the WEST. the haft-tappe project that made enough suger for all of iran is now destroyed. the azerbiajanis & qataris r way ahead of iran in extracting oil from the persian gulf & caspian sea
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
please answer i want to hear u r opinion about what i said about muslims supporting muslims do u agree?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i dont support zionism but im saying it can be argued that way if a person wants to munipulate the truth
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
can u please answered my question before u go
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
for some reasean i cant paste but on page 2 i responded to u
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i answered u 1 sec let me copy paste it.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
and i dont think this system can be improved as it is fundamentaly flaud and corrupt and i will give u many illustrations in our conversation.
hence it must be overthrown. when u have only 1 person on top who doesnt want to let go of power there will be no improvement. and as long as rahbar is there how can there be more political freedoom? so i dont think improvements are possible in this regim not in a 1000 years. the problmes rn small details. they r huge
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
*u dont like. sorry.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
didnt the quran say that even one inocent dead is like the death of the whole world? and i know u do like zionists for killing muslims. and u aprove of the islamic republic cutting relation with them for that fact. are all my statements true here?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
now let me ask u this since u know islam better than me. isnt it the responsibility of a muslim to help all muslims in need and not help the enemies of muslim?
just like how islamic republic is helping palestine. is it a duty of a muslim to help other muslims if they are being opressed?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
forcing ppl to wear hijab is as bad as reza shah pulling it off. u cant change ppls beleifs by forcing them and thats what the islamic republic "says" it doing. although im sure they dont even believe in wha they say. i say islamic republic becasue thats what its called if it was called hoho republic i would call it that. this has nothing to do with religion but the reality. u cant hide facts with religion. the regim just uses religion to rule ppl and i think thats the most unholy thing.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
in iran they aressted my aunt, for not wearing the hejab "properly" . they arrested my uncle and others for having a wedding. they didnt let my dad get his specialist in lung (he is doctor) because he wore jeans at work. they arrested my counsing for having long hair. now which one of these are done in a truely free country? what business is it of the government to tell ppl what to wear, how long the hair is. show me in quaran where it says men cant have long hair or wear jeans
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
You talk like ayatolahs there for I call you
ayatolah Galloway
franksaremi 2 years ago
no i said why didnt u do it earlier.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Comment removed
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
ok khoda hafez, i was just starting to type in persian. Agar irani hasti chera javab nemidi. take care. man midonam irani nisti ke. bye.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
man mitunambe jaye un jenab javab bedam ???
I mean if i have followed your convos correctly i see you as a critic to the system (and not the government alone) and the other person a fan...
I would like to have the honor to present my reasons if possible (if interested)...
imandxb31 2 years ago
bale ke mitonin. shoma irani hastin va mitonin harchi ke deletoon mikhad rajebe keshvaretoon begin.
as long as its with reason and facts not just random stuff. but if i dont agree i too can argue. if thats ok. i know ur going to argue with my views. i have no right to stop u. but before u defend the islamic republic like sohail here, u dont live in iran, so again it makes me ask the age old question, if islamic republic is so good why not iran? i think this is a logical question. dont u?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
mamnun az jvabe manteghitun, nemidunin che lezati mideh adam ba ye mokhalefe mantegh barkhord koneh wa na ba yek mowafeghe zabun nafahm ;)
Anyway, lets make a deal that its ok to agree to disagree :)
At the end of the day we both claim to want the best for IRAN.
My father was working for the Iran Air and in a mission to europe since late 70s for a long time. This is why i was raised in europe and married with a none iranian.
(Although i had to say now she is more iranian than alot of us)
imandxb31 2 years ago
u have been out of iran since 70s. sorry but did ur dad go for shah or islamic republic to europe?
i came to canada when i was 13. so i was in iran and my parents were definately in iran and saw what the system does. sorry i dont mean to be critical or rude but u have to agree if u havent lived in iran since the 70s what real perspective of the internal iranian situation can u have? and according to ur profile ur 30 something so essentialy u have been outside of iran all ur life.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Comment removed
imandxb31 2 years ago
ok my friend. go ahead, i would love to hear ur point of view on this topic. im sure it will be interesting. maybe ull tell me something i dont know. i could be wrong, im human after all. maybe ull open my eyes. so please put forth ur views.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
before i proceed, since i am gonna use some elements in my discussion, would you tell me whether you are a theist or not and if yes which one?? (faith, idiology, world view...!!)
imandxb31 2 years ago
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imandxb31 2 years ago
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imandxb31 2 years ago
btw, the word limit on youtube to comment is really annoying and bothering. is it ok with you to cntinue this on e-mails (personnal messages) not to be limited by 500 words??
imandxb31 2 years ago
well. im typing here for others to see and know about iran. if we use email what is the point. both me and u think we r currect. the reason i post on youtube is for others to learn about iran and not to get one side of the story, like this video here. emailing back and forth will not really do that. so please lets use youtube for everyone to see not just me and u. this way others will be informed too. i think its worth the inconvinience in order to inform others of facts. do u agree?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
well said. how can i disagree
imandxb31 2 years ago
i do believe in god but i dont c god as the islamic republic sees god. im not athiest. i dont follow any religion as i think all religions have been corrupted by man. i try to b good & i think thats wat any god would want. these specific ritauls in religions r man made and isnt nessecary. helping others and not hurting them & being kind & respectfuls enoguh. being grateful for what u have is enough. i dont think i have to pray in arabic in order for god to understand. i think persians good
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
man haz az adamhye manteghi khosham miad va dost daram bahashoon harf beznanam. shoma harchi deletoon mikhad begin. man goosh midam. agar deletoon mikhad ham be man message konin. har kari ke dost darin bokonin. vali agar inja benevisin baghiye ham mibinan va ye chizi yad migiran. ya az shoma ya az man, che irani che khareji
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
now i have to ask u a question. do u think that the islamic republic is following islam and what they do is in accordance to islam?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Unfortunatelly not (but relatively the only one having approximate closeness) this still doesnt matter. What i was trying to pursue bymy question was to establish the basis of a concept and trying to conclude that the curren system COULD and should be amended and improved and not owerthrown....
But well we didnt start the talk yet, did we ?
To regulate my approach i need to know what we have in common and accept it as our platform.
FYI, i truly believe in the basis of Shia Islam...
imandxb31 2 years ago
see i dont know why u would bring religion in this. its a question of wether or not iranian ppl r treated right. isnt that what a government should do?
see let me argue that zionism is right accoeding to silam (not me)
isnt moses a prophit in islam? did he bring torah? didnt its say that palestine is where the jews belong? and where did it in quaran say palestinians belong in plaestine. see with religion u can munipulate things. i dont agree i say religion aside look at the facts
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
relgion is a personal matter and i dont have problems with any. its not suppose to be involved in governments. relgion is not a social thing its between man and god. as long as u do god and don harm others the government should not tell u who or how to pray. who is to say what religion is right. no one is god
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Still, youhave not answered my question :) i just wanted to know how i have to approach this dscussion...anyway...from your answers i would assume:
You are a Theist, but wont limit your view to one highway of approach, rather accept an atheistic law for the society and the elimination of religion from the public life
You said the right thing: Gov should treat the ppl right. but the whole conflict from Adam(as) till now is the definition of "RIGHT"...
You have partially answered this by:
imandxb31 2 years ago
answered this by: "To do good and dont harm others"
But to be honest you have done nothing but complicating the story :)
Now we have to define "GOOD" and "HARM" in the context of humanity
This is why religion is engaged and could not be eleminated...(to be continued)
As for few items in your answers:
1)Islam rejects Zionism (but accepts Judaism)
2)Judaism is a religion and not a nationality and hence not limted to certain borders
imandxb31 2 years ago
3)Talmud clearly FORBIDS the jew to creat/establish any government for the Jews (as a punishment) until the emergence of the Moshiach (משיחא) (And remember the Jews dont recognize Jesus(as) as the Messiah anyway)
4)Quran is not a scoence/history or literature book, rather it is a book of principles which by its definitions what is going on is totally wrong
5)have search with these key words "jews against israel" and have a look
6)The claimed FACT is to define: RIGHT, GOOD, HARM (!!!)
imandxb31 2 years ago
sorry i left i had to go. no im not an athiest. i do believe in god but i think al religions r man made and corrupt. if not initially then over time they became. and i really dont think the issue with the islamic repblic is islam its how it operates. i will explain 1 example that will prove that this "islamic" republic is not that islamic.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i asked u if muslims should help any muslim they can and i know the answer is yes. now lets consider 2 cases in which MUSLIMS were killed and how the islamic republic reacted. first lets look @ wat happened in china few weeks ago. over 200 chinese muslims were killed by COMMUNIST. i was watching islamic republic tv on satelite they only talkbout it for 10sec and acted like it was nothing. well shouldnt they have made it a big deal like palestine? unarmedmuslims being killed by armed communists.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
second: remember chechnia? who was the biggest killer of chechens who happen to be muslims? RUSSIA and the leader at that time PUTIN. and where did ahmadinead go right after the elections? RUSSIA and whos hand did he shake? PUTIN. so how come iran is good allies with china & russia if they just like israel and US kill muslims? iran should have atleast closed ambasies there for protest. c this is why i dont think tese ppl mean what they say. and no religion has anything to do with our discussion.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
religion does more that define ggod andharm. it makes u pray a certain way and makes u clense ur self a cretain way. it makes u pay ppl money. these in my view are not nessecary. yes religion does talk about good but lso adds things that r not explainable by logic. so but like i sadi our decussion is about government not religion. i am not going to talk about religion like i said it is a personal choice and for governments to decide. if ppl want to go to hell ts their choice not khameneis.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
1st, I wouldnt dare to call you an atheist ;)
2nd, all i am trying is to establish a ground to proceed and not jumping from subject to subject, judging actions here and there.
If you remember a while ago i answered that i do agree that the actions of the Iranian regime are not that islamic either rather it is the closest one, i continued...tht this regime should be mended and not owerthrown.
Correctly you mentioned the duty of the govs to protect the rights of its ppl and ppl to do good
imandxb31 2 years ago
the words "Right", "Good" "Bad" "Harm" "Happiness"...seem to be extremely easy to understand but honestly when one looks into it and expands his vision from the size of a person to the scale of humanity from beginning of the history to its end...then we will see that these words (Morality) are not that easy to be defined or recognized.
Theist ppl believe in the absoluteness of human morals by all time, and atheists claim EVERY THING is relative, even morality, even good and bad
imandxb31 2 years ago
i simply can not accept the relativity of moraity, because to me this is against the absolute and the indefinite(!!) mercy of God. Since, even todays the humans knowledge and dominance over himself is nothing close to absolute and totally deficient, HOW can we claim that our todays actions (as a person or government) and understanding will lead us to (EVEN!!) a materialistic salvation (yet forget about the spiritual dimension of humanity)
imandxb31 2 years ago
It is due to the absolute justice of God not to leave humanity to itself and basically dont care at all. in this manner, ALL RELIGIONS and ALL REVELATIONS include a personal as well as a public (group, soceity...) dimmension. IF one claims that God has left humanity to itslef, and there is no other way but the (TEST - FAIL - LEARN) system, it means that he has not known God and God's justice and mercy.If one accepts the justice and mercy of God to be absolute then he HAS to submit to it
imandxb31 2 years ago
a proof to this claim is: imagin a person believing in a prophet and his religion. such person would never challenge nor doubt the orders of his prophet. even if he asks questions it would be only to increase his own knowledge and not to discard the prophets order. If one objects a prophet, it simply ,eans he has no belief in his prophecy.
Considering all these...No MAN, No Government, No Group CAN NOT define the GOOD, HARM, RIGHT....for humanity unless he uses a divine source
imandxb31 2 years ago
Having said that, it is everyones RESPONSIBILITY not only to act according to those morals but also try to spread it through the methods it approves. To be frank by the scale of all religions the importance of society is much more than individuality...
All governments should aim to follow the morality of their own revelations if they truly want to follow success...other wise, humans are subject to mistake and at least i, am not ready to leave my destiny in the hands of fallible ppl.
imandxb31 2 years ago
in these short lines i tried to tell you my point of view why religion is not only NOT SEPERATE from the public life (..governance...) but actually is considered as the back bone of it.
I dont want to be a soliloquy, so i will wait for your comments to proceed.
take care ;)
imandxb31 2 years ago
i have replied to ur comments. i didnt want to email u all of them so im just sending u this. please lets talk about facts thats what we agreed on, i really can not and do not want to argue religion, it is not my place to, im not god. but ill use historical facts to prove my point and not religion the we can use our HUMAN understanding and judge, me, u or khamenei r not god and cannot judge on a religious or godly perspective nd assume what god wants. were only human. take care :)
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
my passage was based on pure logic and human understanding (world view)
i didnt discuss God's logic...i didnt ask you to judge anyone...
I have presented you a simple logic (human logic) trying to proove that humankind by its own has no authority or knowledge and to define "RIGHT", "GOOD" , "BAD"...
and since these definitions are the essence of governance, any government based and rooted from human's understanding is doomed to fail.
We have not started about You, Me or Khameneyi..yet
imandxb31 2 years ago
so then the Islamic republic is doomed to fail as it is also based and rooted on human understanding, even if it is said to be based on human understanding of islam, it is still based on a HUMAN definition of good and bad, god doesnt run the IR, it humans. Even if khamenei and all of the islamic republic leaders kill themselves they wont be able to have the knowledgge of god. therefore by ur logic the IR is doomed to fail.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
:) you are toooooo hurry arnt you ;) didnt we agree to have a step by step approach or is it me being delusional. It's kindda funy how you pick on Khameneyi ;)
Anyway,
1)If you dont accept by LOGIC regarding the inability of mankind to define "RIGHT", "GOOD", "BAD"...please provide your logic. It was supposed to be a logical fair talk, right?
2)I claim since God has revealed to us the definition of those phrases in the clearest way. It is very mch possible for everyone (willing) to carry on
imandxb31 2 years ago
i agree that humans cant know anything. also i dont think that een if all humans combine they cant possibly know what god wants. do u agree?
there can never be a purely devine government on this plannet, do u agree?
also as i mentioned before even if religions r not corrupted over time. many ppl have different understanding of the same relgion. so who is right?in islam there r many interperations, hence no on can agree, because NOONE KNOWS WHAT GOD WANTS
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
sorry for my long delay. i was kindda busy with some other work...
here i am again :)
Re "Hmans CANT know anything" i dont agree. as time passes and our scientific knowledge expands, so does our info. But remember science has no morality in it.
I do agree that either 1 person, or all humanity are incapable to realize the quality of God and hence "what god wants". And this is exactly my point. since such afairs are out of our reach, God being the merciful will inform us by means about them
imandxb31 2 years ago
i do agree that even during Moses(as), Jesus(as), Mohammad(pbhf) there was not a pure (100%) divine governance. Since even if the head of the state had divine authority and support, yet the 2nd, 3rd...grade managers, leaders...are normal humans and hence subject to mistake and/or sin and this will (if not fully) to some extent disorient the path of the government.
you are right, many ppl have different understanding from the same religion, but this doesnt mean that the religion is not unified
imandxb31 2 years ago
for example: time ago, ppl were thinking the earth is the cente of the universe, some scientist prooved other ways...regardless who was right or wrong...the fact was still unified and ONE.
Difference is interpretation as you said is due to the lack of humans capacity and not a defect inthe religion itself. If one in all honesty, wisdome and fairness reviews the religions or atheism he will understand the truth no doubt (this i promis you) (if it was not so, it ment that God has left us alone)
imandxb31 2 years ago
to me God is THE MERCIFUL, OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT... and if God was to leave humanity without any support, lost in his own limits of knowledge with no protection or help this would be totally against his mercy or even the concept of creation.
Due to this, it is a definite that God would NEVER leave humanity to himself without any clear guidance.
In this sense it is very much obvious that whoever clearly looks and is fair, he will KNOW the truth and what God wants
imandxb31 2 years ago
u claim that god has defined them in the clearest way. no that is in correct. which one is the clear way? jeudism?christianity?islam?zoroastreanism? so which way r u talking about. im not sure even if shia islam is the right way, we as humans can fully understand what god wants. as each page in quaran is interepreted diferently by different ppl
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Again i emphasize that the message is clear, the problem is unfortunately another matter:
THINKING IS NOT THAT PLEASENT.
the majority of the ppl prefer to be led rather to lead, to be told rather to say, to memorize rather to realize
Humans tend to attach to their traditions rather to have an open mind
And this is all accompanied with a self fooling unintentional reaction.
Again the message is clear. Also no one needs to fully know what God wants, as ong as the duties are clear, its enough
imandxb31 2 years ago
im not debating religion anymore as i mentioned. i made my points & u made urs. i can talk about facts. religion & devine beings r not related to the IR. 99% of ppl realize this is not a spritual matter but rather a hold on power by ppl who r power hungry & use religion to hide behind. thats all. again i can argue facts & IR actions NOT religion. if u wish we can do that, NOT RELIGION. again noone can say shia islam is the right way FOR ALL OF HUMANITY especially velayate faghihs version of it
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
According to my understanding the IR fundation was based on the SHIA Islamic faith and the concept of Imamate. there are 2 issues:
1)If you are against this base we can carry on and im quite sure we would reach a common understanding
2)If you accept this base but object the method it has been carried out, then we are on the same page (being so i claimed that the system must be kept but amended)
3)I dont believe in "relative morals" (although following any moral is better than none) and
imandxb31 2 years ago
...and am sure that if our fairness in logic is kept in the same way we have been up to now, you wont reject my reasoning for the authority of the Shia Faith and its universality...but that is to be proven only if you are interested to continue this :)
But i claim ABSOLUTE justice, mercy, power and authority for God and the rest is just diversities from this stem :)
imandxb31 2 years ago
iman as i mentioned several times the basis of religion is irrelavent as it does not relate to me hypocretical and brutal things that the IR does. for example the relationship with russia, why is ahmadinejad shaking hands with putin the biggest killer of musims? this shows how truely devoted these ppl r to islam. so lets keep in mind that this is a man made government
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
unfortunately only god can create a fully devine government and to me anyone else who claims to come even close to gods devine rule is a sinner. hence IR is a hypocrete and a sinnfull system to claim to represent god when in fact it can not possibly do so
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Well, i never defended the actions o the givernment as for in many cases are not defendable...what i was trying to establish has actually nothing to do with this particular government, rather the necessity of the establishment of RELIGOPOLITICAL systems.
If you ask do i consider the current IR a religopolitical sstem:NO.
It was once...but not anymore...
Does this mean we have to give up on such systems:No
To me such system is important..this s why i always said IR needs amendments
imandxb31 2 years ago
IR was based on lies both before and after its conception. again im against any system that claims to do gods work, as it can not possibly know all. IR is fundamentally corrupt and it will not be amended. as i said i doubt u really had to deal with financial and economic hardships in iran as ur family in europe supported u. so it is easy for u to support the government as their poor management and mishandling of iranian resources did not affect u personaly. u see my point?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Your claim as my family supporting me in europe is baseless...i thought i made it clear, that my family was in Iran at least since Khatami era...during my univ years i did every possible job in Iran...we are not used to get pocket money...translation, lab, adds...even walking in the streets during summer and recording the number of the paper cubicles for the "Sazmane Amare Iran", guess how much ;) 1000Tomans/day, the best job i had was to b the QC head of a pharmacutical co,180,000Toman/month
imandxb31 2 years ago
so ur whole family moved to iran
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i didnt want to keep my autobigrahy online so i had to delete it, bt you must haveit in your mail box...go through it one more time and you wll see what i said
imandxb31 2 years ago
so ur telling me with 30,000 tomans a dmonth(even if u worked all day) u lived in iran. is that what u mean. and ur parents did not ehlp u. u need at least 500,000 to have the most basic life. iman in iran the youth have to be supported by parents, so they did support u. and according to u u move to iran just a few years before university, so i assume ur parents worked in europe, even if they moved with u to iran ,
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
u know the famous persian saying" neshesti dore godi migi lengesh kon" u tell the iranian population that has suffered under this regim to forgive it & amend it? this regim wil b removed & the hatred that pppl have of it will not allow them to be civil. i have nothing against religion, but again hiding behind "GOD" is not the right way to run the country as ppl will get smarter & realize. IR is not & WILL not be devine, NO human or man made system will be.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
bawar kon man age wasate goud nabasham, kenaresh ham nistam ;)
The least DIRECT benefit of amending ANY governing system will be reflected towards the public itself...so amending the system is nothing for the system...but for the public...
Your claim that this regime will be removed is subject to time and other events...lets see ;)
i do agree that man made systems wont be...this is why all systems must be related to a divine source
imandxb31 2 years ago
how do u assume that a person in charge will not misuse the term `religion`and turn it into a dictatorship, as it is in IR. if ppl blindly follow the `religious leaders`then what garaunti is it for them not to mislead. again a devine source`so u assume because u take shia islam as devine source then all must agree with u. isnt that a bit selfish. whos to say thats the right way. not me, not u. so again yah devine is good but who knows what DEVINE really is, not HUMANS, only god
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
TOTALLY RIGHT... i couldnt agree more with you :)
i always make this example: If you keep the BEST meet in summer in open air..it will be rotten. EVERY HUMAN is subject to control (sure power is addictive or corruptive)
You know, my brain tells me God is merciful, omni...and all love....to me it is impossible fr God to leave humanity to iteself alone with his deffected knolwedge and ability...God will (has) provided us means of realization...which we (all) have to find them...
imandxb31 2 years ago
as you know even in science or philosophy there are different ideas (sometimes fully contradicting each other) (e.g. earth being the center of the universe, the sciences of KIMIA, MASS to be absolute...) your question of "whos to say thats the right way. not me, not u" is valid...but only if we have had not looked into this issue...my point is that IF ppl WERE to look fairly with no connection to their traditions, likes, attractions, desires...it is very clear
imandxb31 2 years ago
sikhs believe that all muslims have to b killed due to their treadition, becuase muslims kiiled them back in the dya.
IMAN how about u tell me what is the right path for ALL of humanity. is it shia islam. btw shia islam is one of the smallest groups as oppose to sunni or christianity. so u tell me is it ok for a SHIA government to rule the ppl. if so, should all ppl convert to shia. if not what should the government do somethings cannt b scientifically argued. like if mahdi is coming
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
I will answer to all your comments one by one, but since you have criticised A whole history in your comments such diaogue wont lead us no where it must be guided...anyway:
Did muslims kill innocent ppl??YES
Was it islamic?NO
Should islam be blaimed for this?NO
Is Shia Islam a bold rightway:YES(ido claim so, oben to debate)
Does quantity matter?NO
Should all ppl convert to Shia?NO
not everything is scientific, can science talk about morality, love, responsibility?
Mahdi(aj) is a morality
imandxb31 2 years ago
well if u claim the regim is to be amened, i get to claim it is to be overthrown:) so if amending the system is good for the public why didnt they amend the monarchy. just because these ppl claim to be religious, but do horible things they must be amened. just because its called islamic republic it must be amended, not for their actions. how does that help the poor ppl. again im not so sure that humans can decide what is devine and how it should be implemented.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
again i do agree with you that even monarchy could be amended (e.g. UK), as long as it is not a system of a monolog.i didnt live during the Shah time (so i cant be authorized to say whether the Shah system could or couldnt) but in general it needed fundamental changes (btw when i say the IR needs to amended i mean it must be well shaken, somehow turned upside down, to return to its roots and concept)
i agree with you that nams dont matter at all, ACTIONS TALK (and i know this is your point) :)
imandxb31 2 years ago
so what part of the IR should stay. what parts do u agree with. if u dont agree with their actions what parts do u want to stay.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i do love the concept, the base and the funding idea of the IR. To me it is THE ONLY lasting manner, if it as to be caried ut correctly and accurately...
imandxb31 2 years ago
according to islam in the end of time mahdi(not 12th imam specifically) is comming and then christ is the last to come and rid the evil. so why not christianity. mohamed is not coming jesus is. so why not christianity. im not saying ur wrong but im saying any religion can be argued to be the right one. so i dont know what u mean by devine. if ony shia is devine then i do not accept that.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Islam is from the word "taslim", submission. In this way, who eer submits to God's will is a muslim, so all prophets were muslims (as you know Jesus to christians is not a messenger but THE LORD and/or SON OF LORD(!!))
1)More than enough evidence is available to proove Mahdi(aj) is THE 12th Imam
2)You have to tell me what Jesus is to you so we can cntinue (LORD or a Messenger from the LORD)
3)According to Bible(OT&NT)Christianity taday, is nothing what Jesus presented
4)Anything is debatable
imandxb31 2 years ago
i have to go. take care. ill talk to u later. but please indicate wat parts of IR do u want to stay. maybe we can argue those. bye for now
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
The idealogy of IR is based on fundamental issues that i cant agree with: its based on pure capitalism (khomanie objecting to the white revolution)& classism. its based on sexism(women half men) religious superiority(shia better than others) corruption & mismanagement. anti-iranian actions & no nationalism(banning of treaditional iranian activities, 13 be dar) finally the overliance on god to defend any unexplainable action. what part is there to salvage? what part of the system is good?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i have already answered your allegations inis comment in other places so i wont repeat them again
imandxb31 2 years ago
i have talked about the chinese a few weeks back too. no mosque and churches like I said r for money grabbing. so u think wahabism is not the right path? only shia? how r u so sure? again who is to say what culture is good or not? khomani wanted to remove norroz and make 22 bahman the new years. so what is wrong with norooz? and u urself talk about how ppl like treadition and now u say some r bad. so which one is it?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
1)i reject wahabism by all means with logic and mind.
2)religion is a subject which could be approached extremely simply through mind, logic and the phylosophy. extremely easy...if one gets out of the borders of logic...that religion is a myth and not a religion, for example: few comments ago i asked you a question, relating the defnition of God, concept of creation and its connection with leadership and governance. please answer it clearly
3)Khomeyni never attempted to change the IR identity
imandxb31 2 years ago
Khomeyni's first PM was Mr. Bazargan ( ye kerewatie setiqeye hesabi)..when we was in the flight to Iran, he answered he has no special feelings about this...Even if he was to change norouz to anything (just for the sake ov the talk) he would choose an islamic event and not something pure nationalistic. Also remember that exept of the war events ALL other decissions were carried out through elections by his time. As i said NOROUZ is not only correct, but even by HADITH one of the best symbolz
imandxb31 2 years ago
btw khomani uses mellis & mojahedin to come to power later he killed them or got rid of them somehow. like hitler used SA then used SS to get rid of them. maybe u should stop seeing leaders of IR as "holy men"& more like lying politicians. khomani used us all & lied to us. like i said hadith & stories made by mullahs dont explain injustice & crimes done by IR. khomany, khamenei, rafsanjani all killers that pioneered IR. they will all go 2 hell, along with IR & the just god will c to that im sure
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
usually i reply comment by comment. today though, i read all your comments together first...stood up, had some drinks...read them all again but still couldnt get over my disappointement.
It was as if ALL my comments were in russian or something. I know my english is crap, but didnt expect it to be so deterrent. As you confessed, i never claimed absolute knowledge, righteousness...
imandxb31 2 years ago
Yes, i always say, as i believe, as i think...(i also said that the authority of each law is valid as long as it is dominant in compare to other ideologies)...
I never rejected Norouz, 13bedar, 4shanbesoori,Shabe Chele...and yet you projected me as a refuter...
i never based anything in this talk on HADITH, or even Quran...
I also never defended any current politician what so ever in the IR....
I never labeled tham as holy (in the other hand i requested amendments)...
imandxb31 2 years ago
u defended khomani, u implied that IR is on the right path just anamendment will fix it. becasue they r using "godly" rules. so all 3 of the above u did.
well u said not all treaditions r good & for the betterment of future generations they must be changed?
do u want me to link all these comments? or do u remember?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i never claimed that anyone as to stay home and God will sort everything out...my statements were all about GUIDANCE from God(which is SHOWING THE PATH, and not WALKING THE PATH)..and yet you thought somehow i ment ppl have no FREE WILL
It truely seems to be the fault of my communication (english/(even maybe)persian)... it has been a while i wanted to document my believes so maybe this is a good excuse...i will upload it on a website and will inform you to have a look if you are interested...
imandxb31 2 years ago
iman what is the CLEAR PATH that god has shown us?
buddism?
hinduism?
islam?
shia or sunni or wahabi or bahai?
please clarify as it seems i dont see the CLEAR PATH
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
tonly fault of ur arguements that u dont explain what makes IR the right path. if u dont agree with all the faults that i pointed out about IR then wat parts of the IR r good to amend?again please name a couple of their laws & rules that differ from other systems that make IR better choice. please dont say i like the concept if it was implemented properly. name 3 4 laws that puts IR ahead of others please. then ill get ur point. please do this, answered ur questions to the best of my ability
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
btw, in a month or so i will be in UK(LDN) for a short time to meet my inlaws...would be nice to meet, if you had time :)
Although we can agree to disagree, but since we carried this talk without getting out of the zone, i am extremely happy. my only grief is that obviously i was not able to transfer even the basis of my faith and ideology to you
(since i was not capable to do so, i will stop proceeding unless i have uploaded my text online)
imandxb31 2 years ago
im not in london
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
well u keep asking me about god. i explained my views on god. even though it had nothing to do with IR. but i did. now im asking u what part of IR system do u like. please dont say the concept. what particular laws that r not currently in other countries do u like? u have to explain the difference between IR & other systems in order to defend them. u can just say i like the idea. what particular 3 4 laws do u like?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
well iman u make pretty strong claims for someone who agrees hes not all knowing. i said in Iran IR doesnt let sunnis build mosques u say because of wahabis & wahabis in UR OPONION r 100% wrong. so what am i to conclude. so u agree that IR does discrminate but its ok because to U THINK wahabism is wrong. so ur being selfish here right? whos to say who can be discremenated or not. u c my point?again please point out 3 or 4 particular laws in IR that makes ppl in iran want to amend them.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
i have already answered this question of yours with a question: Is it ok if i establish a school and start teaching kids 1+1=5, or killing others is good, or fraud is perfect or teach con acts, or to spread HIV?? if you say yes, then... if you say no: then i would argue you are 1)stricting my FREE WILL, 2)you are enforcing your choice upon me, who are you to limit me??
imandxb31 2 years ago
i have said as long as u dont physically or mentally hurt ppl u have free will. how or to who i pray doesnt hurt others, does it? u r using wrong enaligies here.
please answer me on what particular laws and regulations in IR r good?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
I see so then its ok let the government tell ppl how & to who to pray then ur explanation really clarified it. come on iman u know what i mean by free will im not a child u can fool with this commetn to be honest im a bit insulted. u know by free will i mean the choice to worship the way u want. also religion is not my issue with IR its the misuse. again please clarify the good laws and rule in IR.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Regarding the laws, my answer wont satisfy you in anyway, and we wont go further this is why i wanted to upload my views, fully publicly online and then proceed, but since you asked i will state some of them:
1)All of the judicary ruls (which are based on the Shia jurisprudence (there are 1000s of laws here and not 3-4 only)
2)The law of not recognizing the state of israel and all related stuff
3)the system of public---> appointing the council of experts--->appointing the leader
imandxb31 2 years ago
give me 2 or 3 out of the al of them since u like all u must know all. please name them, what is the difference between them and other laws in other countries? u have to clarify. u r being too general. say what makes law 200 for example better than laws in swiden. u have to explain cant just say all. id ont aprove of any so tell me 2 or 3 u particularly like then well talk about them. ok i have to go. take care
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
let me satisfy you to the limit and give you what you are looking for to call me not human:
*i love the punishment of hanging, stoning and death (subject to be judged by all conditions)(since they are divine and available in all religions)
*i love the divine punishment of lashing (subject to be judged by all conditions)
*i love the laws which open the hands of the gov to transfer funds to Hezbollah, Hamas...
*i love the law, which allows the minorities to have a MP
imandxb31 2 years ago
ok then ill live these statements here & others can judge which laws u aprove of. so u believe that if i kill a poor man & pay his family i should go free? u think that lashing is good? the MP law is not SHIA is was under shah. dont make up laws that ARE NOT SHIA here. also the MPs r useless as the supremeleader runs everything. and u want 1 guy to appoint half of the countries ruling party. ok iman if u love these laws u believe in the current system iof IR so u agree wih 99 of wat they do.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
seems you dont have a clear vission from those ruls. No one can force anyone to accept any blood money...it is up to the reltives to ask either for revenge(better said Qesas) or for the blood money...still dont forget any crime has 2 phases (Private & Social) so in case the family accept the blood money, still the public prosecuter has the right to proceed with the punishment (accordingly)
Also refering to Pubic Opinion (in particular subjects) was from the beginning of islam and not only Shah
imandxb31 2 years ago
so u like a law that takes money from iranians who r 50% living under poverty line & giving it to ppl that never did anything for iran? again who is to judge who should be lashed or stomned u iman? or some other human? the only good law is the MP 1 that SHAH put in place not IR. well if thats ur views for ruling then i cant say much more. well let ppl decide if the want some guy on top to decide if they should be lashed or stoned or not or be free. if it was me i would chose the later.
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
funding org like Hezbolla...regardless of the moral side of it is a political act as well. Since the US has announced its annual 400M$ suport of regime change/since israel is actively attempting against the IR regime, the IR system sees itself obliged to act against them, even if it is by funding Hzbollah to put a pressure and balance the powersomehow(!!)
Also the constitution accepted after the revolution was based on many other versions frm other nations with a republic backgroud and not Shah
imandxb31 2 years ago
lol, so IR needs hezbollah & hamas to keep it in power instead of giving money to its own ppl to support it. well said. u r correct, the IR gives money to arabs to keep in power. therefore it doesnt care about iranian ppl but satying power. well said iman now ur getting the point. IR will give money to anyone russia, china, arabs to stay in power & doesnt care for its own ppl. yes ur absolutely currect IR is giving iranian money to arabs to ensure iranians dont overthrow it. good job, well put
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
for a short while i thougt you respected my point in waiting until i upload my idioly online...seems i was wrong. anyway.
I see you as an innocent, unexperienced kind person in these matters to e honest.
The matter of mutual political balance is something that even the super powers(??!!) do act upon when they face the least threat from any origin...seems you are too innocent to have been engaged in such matters. Its not about paying money to be kept on power my dear :)
imandxb31 2 years ago
i respect ur idioligy. but i dont think u respect mine when u claim that urs is godly & since i disagree mine isnt. isn t that what u r implying? u claim to know the right path & since i agree by association i dont? isnt that sort of insulting?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Rejecting ones idiology doesnt mean that you dont respect the person...I dont agree with my christian friends yet we spend wonderful times together, and honestly we enjoy it to the limit...
did i ever insult you (God forbid) !!!!!!!
imandxb31 2 years ago
well if u say u know the right path & i dont agree with it, then? i am not on the right path right iman?
k9k9k9er 2 years ago
Yes, right, to me you are not on the right path, but this doesnt authorize me to disrespect you, dishonor you betray or abuse you...did i ever insult you??
Two scientists are not ncessary sharing the same point of view (each could claim to be correct) yet they can be friends...!!!simple
imandxb31 2 years ago