Martial Arts Myths: Shaolin Temple, part 1

[fallenchildren]

I agree. Years ago I tried to investigate the history of my art and trace it back to Shaolin. I found a connection but what I found also made me doubt the whole Shaolin thing.

[MechPhantom]

this guy speaks the truth no doubt man , dont know why theres so mnay dislike

[tsingtaoster]

Great vid. This is what I have been telling people for decades. What you/we need are links-references

[kurlii]

Warfare and organized martial arts existed milennia before shaolin. Dau Mo is most likely a symbolic figure demonstrating the origin on buddist spiritual and mental conditioning. He was never credited in anything I've read of creating fighting styles, just physical and mental conditioning exercises. It's common knowledge that martial practices entered the temple through retired soldiers seeking atonement through the piety of a monk's life.

[moltenthoughts]

i'm kinda sad that i'm only discovering your videos now bro good work !!!!!

[moltenthoughts]

i'm kinda sad that i'm only discovering your videos now

[2003JL]

it seemed the same can be said for wudang. they are supposedly known for their sword techniques...but not much is known about wudang. I did hear that bagua and xingyi is incorrectly tied to wudang, as is tai chi.......

[Arteanor]

@2003JL

it is part of the messup that china made in the 50's when they decided to categorize all their kungfu styles into two types... wudang and shaolin... so many schools are falsely tagged with these otherwise meaningful words.....

[kismith247]

DUDE, As soon as you said boxing is the best art to learn 1st, I knew you had no clue of what your talking about!!!! Any good fighter would tell you that you need to have a good ground game 1st because that is where most fights end up!!! You can't box from your back!!!

[Swordsage]

@kismith247 You know, it's always cracked me up how many times people keep saying most fights end up on the ground, when most real fights I've seen, usually only ONE guy ends up on the ground, and the other guy (or guys) are kicking and/or stomping on him. Silly me, my eyes must be broken.

By the way, I don't say boxing is the best art to learn period, I said it's a good one for basic self defense. Even the MMA guys seem to have basic boxing skills.

[MechPhantom]

@Swordsage bro just asking so ur trying to say shaolin kung fu is now kinda fake and lousy rite? and all of thme are just wushu guys dressed in monk robes

[Swordsage]

@MechPhantom Not really, although one could quickly come to that conclusion, seeing how too many people claiming to be Shaolin masters are in fact wushu guys in robes. Still, there are some genuine Shaolin monks out there, as well as people who practice what could be called genuine Shaolin kung fu that's actually good. The problem starts when people claim that all kung fu came from Shaolin, and/or that Shaolin developed its own style that's better than all others. None of that is true.

[MechPhantom]

@Swordsage yea damn correct man thx , btw broso like 90% of all "shaolin monks" are wushu guys? hmm then how come when i see them perform i see some qi gong and stuff like they shatter metal bars on their heads and stuff, are thos also fake? and btw these days there are very little real shaolin rite and are those real shaoli kung fu practical in fights? i know that wushu and shaolin these days are more modern wushu which are confirmed totally useless in fights,what about genuine shaolin kung fu?

[MechPhantom]

@Swordsage continued, just asking sword, have you practise shaolin kung fu before? and if you do tell me your experience on it thx pal, a reply would be greatly appreaciated

[Swordsage]

@MechPhantom No, I haven't practiced Shaolin Kung Fu before. My experience has been in Long fist, wing chun, and currently Bagua. Funny thing though, depending on who you talk to, they'll say the first two are Shaolin styles. *shrugs*

[MechPhantom]

@Swordsage hey yea ur correct, EVERYONE keeps saying wing chun is shaolin lolx. Too just asking how you know shalin kung fu is not good if you hvent practise it before? thx pal, btw i too have a fren that went to the shaolin temple and sparred with the monks there and could easily defeat them with just his boxing, maybe that explains why many people said shaolin sucks, i tend to agree. peace. this guys is called "brooklynmonk1" add him on youtube and aski him questions. pretty cool guy

[Swordsage]

@MechPhantom Actually you misunderstand me. The videos are not about saying that Shaolin Kung fu sucks, rather they're about showing that Shaolin isn't really a style, It's not the greatest style in China, and it is not the source of all Chinese martial arts. Actual Shaolin Kung fu is probably pretty decent... but few people know it these days, and there are other styles with a greater history of dominance, like Baji for instance.

[MechPhantom]

@Swordsage So shaolin actually ,originally isnt a fighting style? its more of a exercise is it? thx

[Swordsage]

@MechPhantom Some people would say that, particularly those who don't focus on sparing, or the combat aspects of the style... and there are a whole lot of people who go that route. However, if we go back to the earlier years of the temple, you'll find that there were actually fighters there. Their styles just didn't originate at the temple. Rather, they brought it there themselves. That's the thing about Shaolin. Just about everything that was studied there came from other sources.

[Swordsage]

cont: The misconceptions people have about Shaolin being the birthplace of kung-fu usually comes from fictional sources. The reality is that Shaolin was a place where kung fu was studied, and many different styles ended up over there from other experts. The main thing Shaolin brought to the kung fu world combat-wise was their development of staff techniques... and that's pretty much it. They didn't have a style of their own to contribute, like say, Cang County with Bajiquan.

[MechPhantom]

@Swordsage wow cool story man thx. Just asking again , in the whole in modern day shaolin temple now, do you think theres any fighting, REAL monk ? that atually teaches to really fight rather than doing useless flips and fancy stuff, and those useless feats suck as breaking rocks with hands ,heads etc? thx man

[kaindrg]

read the book u suggested

[hulkout666]

Another important thing to mention is that almost every Kung Fu school has a statue of General Quan with his red face and Quan Dao. He lived and died centuries before the Shaolin Temple was formed. So how can people say that Shaolin is the birthplace of all Chinese martial arts when the guy who they practically worship as a god lived and died before the temple was formed?

[sylvester134]

you got a point there. Shaolin Monks went around all parts of China and bring in Martial Arts from different Schools and master them.

Shaolin is not a fix system Martial Art.

[jakeisawesome91]

i always viewed the shaolin as the ones who took concepts from various different styles and made their own form of chinese "mma" with it all.

[AbstractAddiction]

I always thought the flavor of Shaolin was in the conditioning and philosophy.

[comrad1986]

i guess what i'm tryin to say is that.... yes fighting existed before shaolin, but shaolin took the raw material and polished it into the muthafuckin badass awesomeness that it is known as today...fighting was pretty much unferined before that, shaolin took that shit and refined, distilled, and filterd that shit mixed it with spirituality and and thier "chi concept" and "walla" the ever-so-bad-ass kung fu was born..i can say without a doubt that NO other style has the benefits as genuine shaolin

[Swordsage]

@comrad1986 @comrad1986 Um, sorry, that's not true. The Shaolin were NOT the only ones to refine martial arts, and there were ALREADY refined fighting styles before they started training themselves. And the concept of Chi was not solely theirs either: it's a core concept in Chinese culture, and is not tied to any one group.

To say that the Shaolin were the only ones to refine martial arts is to ignore the rest of kung fu history and development. Again, it helps to actually research this stuff.

[Swordsage]

In fact, it may surprise you to learn that until recently, Shaolin played little to NO part in the overall development of Chinese martial arts, nor were they considered a mecca of kung fu by the top martial artists of ancient times. The only reason why we believe this today is because of old martial arts fantasy stories and movies, but it's not reality. To put this in perspective, consider that Qi Jiguang, a famous Ming general, made no mention of Shaolin when listing great kung fu styles.

[MechPhantom]

@Swordsage i love ur videos,what u speak is purely the truth lol,shaolin is not as good as ppl say,is more of a sport now tahn a fighting art,thx to the communists. Flippings monks will get killied in a fight

[Swordsage]

Here, I'll even give you something to check out for yourself. Look up the history of the following styles:

Xing Yi: considered a powerful style, with a very long history.

Ba ji: This style is considered one of the most powerful styles ever, even by Japanese (hence why you see them put this style in video games, such as Akira from Virtua fighter). A saying about this style is "For health, Tai Chi, for fighting, Ba Ji"

Pigua: Another well known style in China.

These are not Shaolin styles.

[MechPhantom]

@Swordsage basically shaolin took these arts and said its theirs lol zzz ,pretty pathethic, shaolin changed soo much, its more wushu now than fighting, its a sort now than a fighting art, hel even shaolin warrior monks train only in sanda these days for fighting.

[kaindrg]

@comrad1986 allt temples were essentaily land owner/ land lords. their obligaton to the state was to uphold militias to defend the coutnry and their monastary treasure essentiall all monastaries had figters monks or not. they were essentail the national guard or nat reserve. the real shoalin traing would have consisten of what style wre popular regionaly or militarily along with song marching and infatry tact

[kaindrg]

@comrad1986 sorry what i meant to say was they practice what was popular or standard for the time along with infantry marching and tactics. they were the chinese national reserves or nat guard the myths that they have specific uber monks was largely due to wu xia novels(chinese fantasy novels) the chinese masses didnt care if they wre true or not its made martial arts more legitimate in societies eyes the previously thought

[comrad1986]

dude !!! this argument is like the one with gun powder and guns....evryone uses guns, civilians, military, police, even fuckin kids lol....the point is that NO ONE ever takes time to consider where the gunpowder came from or who invented it, all they care about is the awesome power and ease of use that they got in their hand..the chinese were the first to invent gunpowder, but they used it mainly for fireworks...some white dude invented guns and he gets all the muthafucin credit..

[Swordsage]

@comrad1986 Yes, that's a very good point... what matters in the end is if it works or not. But as they love to say about history: you have to know where you come from to know where you're going. Kung fu is no exception. Part o the reason why there is a lot of bs and fakes in martial arts is because of the myths being perpetuated about it. If you want this stuff to be taken seriously, you have to dispel the myths. It's important to just train, yes, but so is getting facts straight.

[kaindrg]

@comrad1986 the westerners actually give the credit to arabs for making rifles the first hand cannon was found in central china and was used agaisnt the mongols(quite effectively) until the mongols adopted it them selve and pwnd the remain southern song

[comrad1986]

It is my greatest wish that you would come into contact with a real and genuine monk....though he wont fight with you for a stupid reason such as exhibition, i just wish that by some twist of fate that he would demonstrate the awesome power that only shaolin training can grant, one hit and i guarantee it will change your mind forever.....anyway my brother good luck with your speculations and theories

[Swordsage]

@comrad1986 I think you missed the point of the video... well maybe you didn't considering what you said with your first comment, but then saying that you wish I would meet a monk and know his "awesome power" kind of misses the point. I'm not saying monks don't know how to fight (though honestly, most DON'T). I'm saying kung fu didn't start with them, and I'm tired of that myth being spread, as it spits on those who spent their lives developing this art.

[Swordsage]

@Swordsage Also I feel compelled to add that shaolin training ISN'T the only training that can grant a high level of skill. Simply GOOD training will. If you ever decided to start researching the many people who developed and trained in Chinese martial arts over the centuries, you'll find there were plenty of people with extraordinary levels of skill who never set foot in Shaolin. In fact, MOST of them never trained there. It's good you're training, but don't believe the hype.

[comrad1986]

whether or not kung fu came from or started in the shaolin temple, i don't give a damn !!!! because its power has been proven to me time and time again (and i aint talking no movie shit !!! i'm talkin practical and actual stuff) thats all thati need to practise it and continue believing in it...who gives a fuck where it started or if it was elsewhere before ???....once you get a genuine master and you train hard and fighting is part of your training, you are good to go...

[DementedDegsy]

fuck you love yourself and the sound of your voice ! how old are you ? 

[Anandfulness]

Sword polisher's record has a good article about it.

I practised ''Shaolin kung fu'' for a year but after a year I had enough of the bullshit and joined a very good traditional kung fu school. I'm very glad that I'm actually learning how to fight instead of learning only impractical techniques that never work in real life. My advice, don't start with shaolin kung fu. Look for a traditional style that has a clear family tree or good relationship with Hong Kong schools.

[tsingtaoster]

Swordsage. Your Martial Art Myth Series is great. I have been researching and discovering the same stuff. Please email me to shareesearch references and material.

We are going to find naysayers as people desire to cling onto myths, legends, and tall tales.

[rossmakoske]

I used to teach choy li fut, and I totally agree with you. Your videos are well thought out and I've enjoyed listening to them. Keep it up and don't let the larpers get to you.

[colinkadink]

I think that asian martial arts are to some extent based on Greek Pancration.Alexander the great conquered the known world in the 2nd century BCE as far as India +Afghanistan. His troops would have been formidable warriors,and taught their children (from colonised areas)weapon and H2H

[plexfam]

what about the five animal forms

[elgostine]

and similar, theres a apparent style called 'northern shaolin,

interestingly, northern shaolin is showcased as being the technique of 'firebending in the nickelodean series avatar the last airbender. for the inhabitents of the fre nation (earth is noted to be like southern mantis and hung gar, water is tai chi chuan (which, when you watch he warerbenders move, that bcomes extremely obvious... trust me. and lastly, airbending is apparently based off bagua

[WarriorBoy]

You make great points here.

There are way too many traditionalists that will leap up in anger the moment you threaten any of their "history" with applied logic.

One of the problems with traditional martial arts is that asking why is forbidden. Why not? Or why is it like that? Are considered forbidden things due to the Confucian they stem from.

I, for one, appreciate you acknowledging Shaolin as a crockpot of martial knowledge but not the place that made the ingredients.

[BuddhaWhiteCrane]

Well Shaolin monks can beat Ninja's....

[HypnoAthletics]

You are doing a great service to the cult-ure of martial arts. Many people are not so diligent as you in doing research. Thank you for your insight!

[tiecuando]

Yeah, boxing is good. I want to learn kickboxing, and how to break someone's leg. Tehehehe.

[elgostine]

personally, i say screw boxing, take it to the whole next level and try muey thai, that art is boxing.. PLS al theother limbs and joints. OUCH, ive seen it up close a match btween fighters, pretty damn brutal if you ask me.

[papa13benny]

So its no wonder that they were found years before Shaolin because the shaolin are a unique culture and whether there theories are correct or not you should still have enough respect too not try and rationalize everything that they believe.

Im dissapointed people are as ignorant as you

[Swordsage]

Wow... you call me ignorant, and yet you post this up.

Use your brain: the development of Chinese weaponry was done way before Shaolin for reason: they were using them. If they were using them, then that means they HAD MARTIAL ARTS ALREADY!. That right there disproves the whole "martial arts are from shaolin" theory. As to them having their own unique culture, of course. No one is disputing that. But other CHINESE historians have shown they got their arts from elsewhere. Do the research.

[Swordsage]

I also take offense at the whole "no respect for ancient cultures" line. If I didn't I wouldn't be researching this stuff and wouldn't be taking Chinese martial arts. Plus, people say that as a cop out when they see truth they don't want to accept. Yes, the Shaolin have their place in Chinese martial arts, but it's not as big as you think. Even the great General Qi JiGuang paid them little attention, only noting their staff skills. Martial arts were practiced there, NOT created there, period.

[flatbiker0]

very true, the myth that every martial art comes from shaolin, may be because of the great number of practitioners that were from shaolin and then spread around the country, so people might have thought that everything the masters from shaolin teached was created in shaolin.

[Creationsofmyown]

it goes a step further than that... there is a problem that was brought about during the republic era of china... all of the "internal" arts were classed as wudan... EVERYTHING ELSE was labeled as shaolin... directly from SS shaolin addendum to these vids... check them out he worked his ass off to put it together.

this cat knows his shit.

props bro SS forever!!!

[Grudge20s]

you heard of Snow Tiger Kung Fu??? it was trained in the shaolin. They go by a Snow Tiger Animal Combat system that has everything included in it as of trapping, angling, striking with hands knees feet elbows, pressure points joint manipulation submissions ground grappling weapons etc.. it has 9 animales that focus on each element but its a combined system in one.. heard of it?? they also go by Lin Kuei... I used to study it its effective but want more info on its origin...

[thedaryl]

@Grudge20s heh heh Sub Zero from Mortal Kombat also goes by Lin Kuei style

[papa13benny]

you have no respect for ancient culture and more to the point you have poor knowledge of what your discussing I suggest you examine your research a bit more extensively... In regards to what you were saying about swords being in china long before Shaolin Martial Arts was created, this is because swords were invented along time ago and in those days china had a huge export industry between Japan, India and Mongolia and swords were a common weapon carried by sailors and travelers.

[clfguardian]

I truthfully believe that the reason why shaolin has no "Flavor" is to give something a name is to create ignorance and since Shaolin Temple is Chan Buddhism they are taught to eliminate all ignorance, as far as wing chun or Hung Gar is concerned or any "style" being named is because they were created not by a monk of Shaolin but by students of Shaolin School. That's all shaolin is to me is a School were one learns Martial Arts, Enlightenment, and Buddhism.

[Swordsage]

While your theory has some merit, a style having it's own flavor doesn't mean ignorance, so to speak. Any style of martial arts has it's own "flavor" or feel to it, and through that you can tell where it comes from, and what style it is. For example, long fist is a general term for a type of kung fu, but there are different styles of it, and each has it's own flavor. Cha Chuan is one version, while Tong Bei is another. Shaolin doesn't really have one, since it has taken styles from elsewhere.

[clfguardian]

I never thought of it that way. Thank you for this insite, It may prove useful in my own training btw I have studied Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut for 12+years now and your right I have yet to hear of a style that is Shaolin's own creation, Lohan came from Damo so they say, I personally believe Lohan came from outside of the temple maybe a general created it anyhow good luck on your journey.

[Khomradeigor]

Excellent dissection of Shaolin. Altough when it comes to Martial Arts and myth Ninjutsu and Koga-Ryu is an infinitely worse offender since its hard to prove that Ninjas even existed at all.

[flatbiker0]

Just look at Da hong quan, chang quan, xian hong quan and so on from shaolin, the moves look very diferent from for example: moves from Chin woo martial arts academy, I know a punch is a punch, but the way they link the moves makes the difference.

Just my humble opinion, great video

[Swordsage]

While I admire your counter argument, it's a bit flawed.

For one thing, Chang Chuan, or Long Fist, is a blanket term for certain northern style martial arts with long arm movements. Shaolin did not create it, but rather has two forms that could be considered part of it, two forms which you already mentioned. They have other long fist forms that are representatives of styles that were developed more completely elsewhere; note they have Tong Bei and Baji forms. None of them share the same feel.

[Swordsage]

Also, if Shaolin did develop its own feel or flavor, then everything that was ever taught there would have that feel to it, even if it was imported. But this is not true. Note that Hung Gar has a flavor completely different from Da Hong Chuan and Xian Hong Chuan (also note how Hung Gar is a style, while the other two are simply forms). Hung gar has a strong "southern" flavor, while others feel more "northern". If Shaolin had it's own flavor, they'd all feel similar. But this isn't the case.

[flatbiker0]

but most of the traditional forms taught in shaolin have almost the same feel, you can tell in practice, for example, the chang quan form from shaolin feels a lot different from another chang quan form, for example duen da, but shaolin chang chuan feels very similar to da hong quan

[flatbiker0]

Also, Hung gar comes from southern Shaolin temple, there were in the past many shaolin temples, but the first one to establish was the one in song shan. Thats why they feel different, because they developed in different places. Thats why da hong quan, shaolin chang quan, xiao hong quan "feel" very similar because they developed in the same song shan shaolin temple.

Well thats what I have researched, that there were many shaolin temples in the past.

[flatbiker0]

Also I disagree with Shaolin martial art doesnt have its flavor, it is true that shaolin has a wide rage of styles inside, but when martial artists taught the monks how to fight, they kept practicing so much that with time they created or modified what the have been taught, crating their own characteristic moves, their flavor, no saying that they specialized only in someting, but the way they link every move is unique.

[flatbiker0]

Totally agree with martial arts in china doesnt begin with shaolin, but about DaMo crossing the river, I would say that it would be better to leave it as a story, because we cannot prove that it happen but we also cannot prove that it didnt happen.

[mrmolestah]

This guy has know fuckin' idea on what he's talking about.BHUDDISM came from HINDU.Don't belive in inner strenght & power go to the HINDU temple they'll show whats up.QUIT reading books by authors who don't know what the fuck thier talking about.Your researching skills sucks.

[Swordsage]

Apparently your communications skills suck.

Hinduism doesn't teach shit about chi kung (inner power). That's Tantra and yogic medication that you're probably thinking about. Hinduism is a religion, and Buddhism is a religion that stems from it. Nowhere do I see in this video that Buddhism is the source of martial arts, or inner power. So not only are you an idiot, but you're an idiot that apparently doesn't know how to listen to words in a video.

You guys are coming out the woodwork today.

[Akaoushi]

Swordsage:

Do you have a back ground in martial arts?

If so what?

And where did you find your info on the Shaolin temple?

Thanks in advance.

[Swordsage]

Yes, I do, though it's not all that spectacular. I have a couple of years of Wing Chun training, and a few years of Long Fist training.

I got the info on the Shaolin Temple from various sources, though one in particular you might want to look at is Adam Hsu's "The Sword Polisher's Record", a collection of essays covering various topics on Chinese martial arts. Some of the info in it runs contrary to popular belief. Also try The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts by Kang Ge-Wu.

[Akaoushi]

Swordsage:

Hey thanks for getting back to me, I have not heard of either of the books you mentioned but I will try and check them out.

[Steadno]

Boxing mainly works against people who dont know how to fight.

[FaChin0420]

i dont know if thatsd true man, its accually pretty practical , foot work, technical atack and blocking, i consider boxing a martial art, just not asian ahaha,

[Steadno]

F: Yea it is a martial art but its pretty one dimensional.

[T850CSM101a1676]

I wonder if it's possible to "adapt" long fist to meet modern requirements.

Sure, San Shou works, but I could have sworn there are some modern "Chinese boxing" schools with people with fantastic stand up.

[Swordsage]

definitely. One myth about martial arts is that some are too "old" to be effective today. Nonsense: a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick. Sure, methods of teaching need to be updated, but combat will always be combat. Each of the different styles in Chang Chuan (Long Fist) specializes in skills that work well today, and despite it's name, even has close range skills. Maybe one day I'll be crazy enough to show you guys some of the applications, so you can laugh at my form later on. :P

[T850CSM101a1676]

Well, for me, skepticism means interest, not dismissal.

Things that are so ridiculous that I have to dismiss them...well, I just intuitively know, and I think even critical 'thinkers' oughtta just 'know' that!. With that said, when I talk about things like this, I want to be positive about it.

[FaChin0420]

that is awesome man, i been waiting for someone to say that...YES....absolutely!!!

[tiecuando]

I don't know of any reputable Long Fist schools. I want to go through the repetitions, it's the only way I'll learn.

[T850CSM101a1676]

When I think "ancient Chinese martial arts" I think of "Long Fist". I have become interested in that lately.

I wonder what Don 'The Dragon' Wilson did? I think he actually competed in kickboxing, but those poses he made lead me to believe he practiced some of the "classical" systems, or at least one.

[T850CSM101a1676]

Well, sorry about that. Tehehe.

[Swordsage]

nah, its no biggie... I was just afraid that I offended you.

[Raideriz]

Very good video.. great point on the dates... i know i've been m.i.a on ur videos but still nice one

[TheInnerCynic]

The myths seem like ancient marketing techniques. It must seem a lot cooler to be practicing a Martial Art that was developed over 2000 years ago by a super-human who lived in the Wudang Mountains than just regular old western boxing.