Double clutching also provides smoother gear changes and stops the vehicle from jerking. Many still believe this to be the proper way to change gears.
Used to love taking school bus drivers on road tests in these things. They would htake summer charters at the company where I worked. Was a lot of fun road testing them. First they were clueless about double clutching, but the real fun was when the test was over and we were back at the barn. Having them back the bus into the parking space. Watching these guys search for the reverse gear was just hilarious. After a bit I said first gear, hold the rev switch and pull it into second, then back up
I also if I drove wouldn't use a clutch brake myself, but then again, I haven't any experience. Maybe a two stick rig would need it. [to the last poster that I replied to]
but you'd have to click another YouTube video for that, since this is a 4 speed bus. This is gettin' to be the much asked quesiton here..
@zimtok After a bit of experience. you get to be able to shift without even using the clutch except for stopping and starting, but once your coach is moving, you can shift up and down without even using the clutch.
What we needed, zimtok, was a good double-clutch downshift, that would help hush the quibbling twits. A good steady increase in engine rpms as you declutch/ hit neutral/ declutch landing in your lower gear at exactly the correct increase, well, that's pure driving art.
Zimtok was the one himself who had reported no clutch brake, not I, it's hos bus, so please don't take any issues with myself, and 3 years ago, in one of the earliest replies, I think it was "RustySax" who had chimed in on his RustySax [sorry for the bad pun] that none on a GMC 4 speed or on the equivalent MCI's.Though no problem aksing or explaining :D Not sure of the deal,m but the trannies and engines are in back, so maybe the location has something to do with it.
@XKP69X Push in the clutch, wait a few seconds for the gears to stop rotating, then take 1st gear. If you don't wait long enough you'll get the sound you hear at 0:06
I dont know how it is on a bus, but I believe you are not supposed to push clutch in all the way, guess it depends on how the clutch is adjusted. Nice vid, Thanks for the post.
no i havent but i have driven plenty of trucks that dont have syncros... theres nothing special about double clutching... the only thing it does it allow time for the motor 2 slow down so that the gears will match up
Yes the motor needs time to slow down. But if you just push the clutch in once you will be waiting a long time for the gears in the transmission to slow down.
By releasing the clutch while in neutral (between gears) the transmission input gears slow down with the motor making it easier to shift into the next gear when the clutch is pushed in again.
As you have said you don't have to use the clutch at all. This video is to show the rhythm of double clutching I use on this old bus.
could someone explain to me why you would have to release the clutch in neutral? wouldn't that have the same effect as just throwing it into the next gear and applying gas as you release the clutch?
i don't understand how releasing the clutch in neutral makes for a smoother shift...
Yes, they use it in racing... but mostly for quicker downshifting.
For your daily driver the syncros will allow you to shift at a normal speed, and most daily drivers don't down shift ALL the time.
If I didn't double clutch with this bus and just waited until the transmission was ready to be shifted I would loose about half my speed gain between each shift.
modern cars all have synchronizes, which adjust everything so that it shifts smoothly. synchro are not perfect though, so double clutching still gives you a smoother ride if you do it right. also on large trucks and older vehicles, there are unsynchronized transmission, and double clutching is a necessity.
Also, as mentioned here, the higher speed that the gear's supposed to have, the SLOWER it'll turn, nad the intended lower gears relevant to the faster, turn FASTER than the others [mentioned before on this entry form.]
I take it that the last poster, coilgunner2, was answering your question, kingcamilo. It helps shift the gears of big vehicles and old buses like the one featured [GMC "Highway Traveler" PD-4104, this with 4 gears and non-synchro, located at the back of the bus], and also is done while using the accelator to attain the opposite of what each gear does: i.e., to upshift, you would slow down before doing the above, then downshifting requires a bit of pressure on the gas [as said by many here].
I was under the impression that when you double clutch you need to rev the engine to the appropriate rpm for the next gear (after clutching it once)... anyone know?
Perhaps we should be glad two stick transmisisons exist only on big rigs and "jeeps" and not on buses [GM Futurliners tried this, but these were not rode by the public!] The old stick ones, of cours,e only had one not count cases like Crowns with Roadranger 10 speeds and such.
If you think shifting a floor-mounted four speed shifter [not to mention the more challenging big riggers]-not to the poster of the video,of course, so much but as to the "newbies" here, - is a challenge, you ought to try [I am not a bus driver, incidentally:)] shiftinga SILVERSIDES [GM 1938-1948,in the pre-1945 years Yellow Cach, GM's org.umbrella]--column shifted and such. There's even a video or two about them.
Incidentally, My GM INTERCITY COACHES book [2003, Iconographix Press, authors Brian Grams and ANdrew Gold-and no Gold'n'Grams jokes, please], states the PD 4104 was built 1953-1960, making it (with the Scenicrusier, GMC PD-4501] one of the first "Fishbowl/slant-ended" styled buses [the type that GM and Flxible used so succesfully later on their transit/suburbans, and making the bus in the video among the last PD 4104's ever built.
As one of the previous posters said, pusher don't would not have them, and frankly, I don't see the advantage of having a clutch brake versus using the clutch itself. I'm surprised there are any syncrho's on any large vehicles, even current ones, OR a "clutchless" arrangement with split/range change [like on "Roadranger" set-ups].
id be limping after 1 hour driving thaat thing ill grind before i go back into double clutching again just watching this video my clutch knee started paining.arrggggh.!!!
Finally.on the Scenicruisers [not pictured above but still GMC, different model], a final
interesting thing:p[probaly known though to most coach owners] Transmission originally was a three speed with a two speed fluid coupling (different bus than the one above which is a 4104, but making an interesting comment),with a dual engine, but this was not that successful, so the Scenicruisers [for those who wonder] sswitched to the usual 4 speed.
One other thing:On a PDF file form a May 1974 things get Scenicruiser's then 20th anniversary, it mentioned a few electric clutches.Works same, these few "electric clutch" Scenicruisers's [PD 4105] clutches were same as the pedal ones.A treadle was installed instead of the usual pedal (a exception tohugh..).
No stick buses with skme exceptions and almost NO bigger stick shift newer or older (certainly NO older) trucks had syncromesh, with some exceptions (I'd rather, again, double clutch those had I driven the trucks or stuff..synchrozied transmission on larger vehicles, either old OR new, doesn't make much sense at all to me.)
MThies's video of a 1966 Dodge has a comment, or at elast one of nthe vids did about this bus having a Synchro (a Gas or stick back then I could understand, having ridden Chevy, Crown, and Ford and such), and can only say a schynro on a bus, for am manual, especially back then, is unthinkable to me. BTW Cars did not have 'erm either until years ago, and of course neither do big trucks, but virtually all of us know that..
This is, as we know, a 4-speed manual (with solenoid reverse on the shift from 1 to 2). Now, I guess the shift pattern proper for the 4 forward speeds was just like on a car [minus the synchro for the forward..and I guess the reverse was to ahead of 2nd or to the right (I've heard onclificting comments as to where the switch was swithced to)
Anyway, I presume as I was syaing it just had a nomral shift pattern (no over or under).
The reverse is solenoid activated... with it in 1st hold the reverse switch and pull it into 2nd position and release the switch. It will not come out of reverse until it is put back into 1st.
Used to love it when school bus driver would take their test in a 4104. I would get them back to the garage and have them back into the parking lane. Enjoyed watching them hunt for reverse.
Can you explain how the linkage works from the shifter to the trans, which I presume is behind the rear wheels. I've seen schematics of GM buses 1959 and older, with standard trans., and the power is off the right-side end of the diesel on a 45 degree-angle to the differential. Is the shift-linkage mechanical or achieved with some kind of servo-motors to correspond with what the driver is doing with the stick?
Stay in your free play area before the first inch before the clutch engages then hold and shift both times into next gear by just boving your big toe about a half inch,your going to wear your clutch out going into clutch brake for all your shifts should only use it for 1st or reverse.
If you insist on double clutching, only push it about an inch or two. only push it to the floor to get your starting gear otherwise you'll ware the clutch brake out and have to grind it into gear to get moving. You really ought to float it anyway.
Some did not have a clutch brake. I drove 4104, 4106. and 4905 with no clutch brake. If you do things right you donj't need the clutch except for stopping and starting. It is real easy to up and down shift without using the clutch. Observe the highest speed registered on the speedometer and those points will indicate downshift points.
@5150ou812 How can so many people rate this comment positive when it's just WRONG?? There's no clutch brake, the pedal has to be pushed in all the way.
By the way, speaking of bus performance, Road and Track actually test drove a greyhound bus in 1969. I forget which month (try october). I don't think it was a 4104, probably an MC-something, but it had a detroit of course and a 4-speed manual. It was a full road & track style road test; I think they even did their usual slalom and skidpad tests. It'd be worth tracking down and putting in the reading rack in the head. :-)
I haven't gotten around to tracking down the article yet, but I do recall that the bus they road tested had a helper axle in the back, but the helper axle was hidden by fairing so that at a glance it looked like there was only one rear axle. If that narrows it down any.
Sometimes I wonder why the accelerator pedal on busses is not just an on/off switch. Not sure I've ever seen one just part-way down! Also kind of funny how you had to edit between shifts to keep the video from being too long! :-P Ah... busses! I'll get there when I get there!
yo man I want that shifter for my civic! that would be Phat man,soes with my 20 inch dubs and my 3 plane wing. 88 civic 780 Hp stock motor with megacan muffler
I drive transport for a living , l guess when your new you should use the clutch, but ask any vetern driver, nobody uses it, in city traffic, your leg would be dead from all that clutching, and if done right you dont need to use the clutch only when at a stop
There is no need to even use the clutch except for stopping andstarting from a stop. I have driven buses and shifted without even using the clutch. You need only listen to your engine to know when to shift. Even had one bus that the clutch was stuck engaged. Had to use a different technique for stopping and starting from a stop, but never ground any gears.
I can and have driven many vehicles without using the clutch.
I'm not saying it can't be done but the old buses are differnet.
Have you driven a Bus with a non syncronized transmission or a clutch brake? Add to that a slow response on the engine deceleration and the bus will slow down faster tehn you can get it into gear.
THe busses I drove are the GM 4104, 4106 and 4905. Onve you get used to listening to the engine, you don't need a clutch. On hills the speedodometer helps you to know when you can downshift. But my technique was to bring to governor then ease off the throttle, pull out of first then off the throttle completely and listen. When I could not hear the engine I put it into second. No grinding. Slipped in like it was greased.
I've read on some site that the 4905's had SYNCROMESH [but were still very hard going like others were---these late sixtiies to seventies models had that reputation, and that's something that I read. Never drove any myself, though.]
what exactly is the point of double clutching? i never understood it, when i've driven 9 speeds and 13 speeds i've only clutched just once.. not twice
Great video. I did not realize you had to double-clutch those old buses. But it makes sense, as most large transmissions can't handle synchronizers. Thanks for posting.
Double clutching is used to match the transmission shaft rpm to the engine rpm to allow smooth shifting on vehicles with no synchronizers or worn ones. It is not used for racing.
Can't match speeds when up shifting. Matching speeds requires an increase in engine rpm to bring it up to match tranny rpm. This works when downshifting only.
between mashing the cluch all the way to the floor and riding your foot on the cluch i think your going to have to replace the cluch before the video is over. Dont need the cluch break to get you out of gear.
My foot may be touching the clutch pedal but there is NO preasure on it. it takes quite a bit of force to depress the clutch at first and then the air assist helps.
It is a smoother transition getting it out of gear when using the clutch. The 671 in conjunction with the accelerator pedal cable length makes it difficult to easily find an engine RPM.
This bus does not shift like any truck I've driven.
The company I worked for bought used Tamiami Trailways coaches. I guarantee they did NOT have air assist on anything. We did have four 4905's, two of them had air throttles. Shifting the air throttle ones required a different technique like NOT bringing the rpm to the governor.
In MY opinion,I have seen some of your Bus Conversions are being driven by Owners who do NOT have a Back ground in Driving Non-Syncro Transmission...So telling them that they can shift without the Clutch can be very interesting at least.....This Video is very good on show how it is done....I only hope that after shifting the driver takes his foot off of the clutch pedal....It is NOT a foot rest...Could cause premature wear on the Throw-out (or release) Bearing
double clutching is a waste because you can float the gears and shift without the clutch at all. Theirs a great video of shifting a 18 speed transmission without using the clutch on this site check it out.
Yes it may be possible to cheat and do that if you can rev match the gears almost exactly, but if you are a) driving an older vehicle or b) driving a semi truck or a vehicle without synchros you MUST double-clutch or risk wrecking your transmission.
Check out my video on shifting. It is called "Workin Them Gears" I'm in a semi-truck going up and down without touching the clutch until I have to come to a complete stop.
Double clutch shifting both up and down is unnescesary when you get the technique. But it depends on the motor aswell. I've found that with a perkins you gotta give it a blip but with most others you just slip it out of gear while lifting off the throttle and it should slip straight in, all at the right rpm of course. For starters try shifting at about 1600-1700 rpm and it should synchronise by itself and slip in at about 1400-1500rpm.
With only four speeds in this transmission and the Detroit two-stroke motor, best performance comes from winding it up to the governor (2100 rpm) and then
This has been flagged as spam show
I want this video on my Sidekick unit.
buddyrich410 2 days ago
This video went viral on South Carolina
aelreynol24 1 month ago
Double clutching also provides smoother gear changes and stops the vehicle from jerking. Many still believe this to be the proper way to change gears.
boroboyben 1 month ago
Used to love taking school bus drivers on road tests in these things. They would htake summer charters at the company where I worked. Was a lot of fun road testing them. First they were clueless about double clutching, but the real fun was when the test was over and we were back at the barn. Having them back the bus into the parking space. Watching these guys search for the reverse gear was just hilarious. After a bit I said first gear, hold the rev switch and pull it into second, then back up
Dusty754 6 months ago
whats with the dress on the shifter?
You can always tell a novice-his left foot is resting on top of the clutch getting ready for the next gear !
cvueguy 1 year ago
I also if I drove wouldn't use a clutch brake myself, but then again, I haven't any experience. Maybe a two stick rig would need it. [to the last poster that I replied to]
but you'd have to click another YouTube video for that, since this is a 4 speed bus. This is gettin' to be the much asked quesiton here..
SteveCarras 1 year ago
my 1st gear screeches when i pop it down from 2nd gear (slowing down) do u have any idea what it is? cause i thought double clutch might prevent it
jigo53 1 year ago
Nice brolly, oh shit, its the gear stick. well. more of a gear pole or shaft :P
kingzlister 1 year ago
whats good about double shifting...why does it help or why would you want to do it?
StudManbdk 1 year ago
In an unsynchronized transmission you will be able to shift sooner.
The double clutching allows the gears to match speed for easier shifting.
zimtok 1 year ago
@zimtok After a bit of experience. you get to be able to shift without even using the clutch except for stopping and starting, but once your coach is moving, you can shift up and down without even using the clutch.
Dusty754 6 months ago
@zimtok
Does anyone really teach "double clutching??? You should only use the clutch to start off. Less gear grinding without the clutch after practice.
StanWilhite 4 months ago
What we needed, zimtok, was a good double-clutch downshift, that would help hush the quibbling twits. A good steady increase in engine rpms as you declutch/ hit neutral/ declutch landing in your lower gear at exactly the correct increase, well, that's pure driving art.
73VW1800 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
what the fuck is so special about that
justdiger1 2 years ago
Nothing special.... just informative.
zimtok 2 years ago
too far on clutch, that way you always go on brake clutch and its not good at all.
KoralieMegan 2 years ago
There is no clutch brake on this bus....
I've tried to lessen the amount I push the clutch but it does not work as well.
zimtok 2 years ago
@zimtok theres a clutch brake yours is just nfg
XKP69X 1 year ago
@XKP69X
These rear-transmission/engine buses don't have clutch brakes [as if it hasn't been said already].
SteveCarras 1 year ago
Comment removed
XKP69X 1 year ago
@SteveCarras there is no clutch brake at all???not even on the shifter??how do you get a gear from a stop??
XKP69X 1 year ago
@XKP69X
Zimtok was the one himself who had reported no clutch brake, not I, it's hos bus, so please don't take any issues with myself, and 3 years ago, in one of the earliest replies, I think it was "RustySax" who had chimed in on his RustySax [sorry for the bad pun] that none on a GMC 4 speed or on the equivalent MCI's.Though no problem aksing or explaining :D Not sure of the deal,m but the trannies and engines are in back, so maybe the location has something to do with it.
SteveCarras 1 year ago
@XKP69X Push in the clutch, wait a few seconds for the gears to stop rotating, then take 1st gear. If you don't wait long enough you'll get the sound you hear at 0:06
CreRay 10 months ago
@XKP69X When I drove these beasts the best thing was to put it into first gear just before the vehicle came to a stop.
Dusty754 6 months ago
@XKP69X When I drove these beasts, I found that putting the thing in first gear just before you came to a stop helped.
Dusty754 6 months ago
id rather watch paint dry than watch this video again,waste of space
civicsham 2 years ago
It is a free country, go watch paint dry if this video does not have any intrest for you....
zimtok 2 years ago
then dont look/watch this shit up dumbass.
longlive289s 2 years ago
you are not supposed to drive with your foot resting on the clutch pedal.
mtlove91 2 years ago
You are correct, I have a tendancy of resting my foot on the clutch pedal, bad habit I need to work on....
zimtok 2 years ago
@mtlove91 - youre right but there should be enough freeplay in there tha your not actually disengaging the clutch
highway955 2 years ago
I dont know how it is on a bus, but I believe you are not supposed to push clutch in all the way, guess it depends on how the clutch is adjusted. Nice vid, Thanks for the post.
SaGiTaUrlaN 2 years ago
he must be moving at like 220mph.. look at the camera shake, dahum.
LoginErroronu 2 years ago
damn this shits intense!!
hacura585 2 years ago
omg i think i can hear my hair grow
gazep3 2 years ago
Are you by chance referring to a) the long time or to b) the fact that many guys would rather drive shift?
SteveCarras 2 years ago
no matter what i i have driven i never use the clutch... only 2 take off and never grinded a gear
makipsee 2 years ago
Have you driven a 1960 4104 bus with a spicer 4 speed transmission?
These transmissions do NOT have Syncronizers..
.
zimtok 2 years ago
no i havent but i have driven plenty of trucks that dont have syncros... theres nothing special about double clutching... the only thing it does it allow time for the motor 2 slow down so that the gears will match up
makipsee 2 years ago
Yes the motor needs time to slow down. But if you just push the clutch in once you will be waiting a long time for the gears in the transmission to slow down.
By releasing the clutch while in neutral (between gears) the transmission input gears slow down with the motor making it easier to shift into the next gear when the clutch is pushed in again.
As you have said you don't have to use the clutch at all. This video is to show the rhythm of double clutching I use on this old bus.
zimtok 2 years ago
thanks for posting, does not look as hard as people make it out to be. the trick is matching rpms?
rossdsea 2 years ago
Double clutching is what helps the gears of the transmission match RPM's with each other.
zimtok 2 years ago
this isnt even okay if you do have syncros.
XxGreenTeaxX 2 years ago
could someone explain to me why you would have to release the clutch in neutral? wouldn't that have the same effect as just throwing it into the next gear and applying gas as you release the clutch?
i don't understand how releasing the clutch in neutral makes for a smoother shift...
standardwolfsburg 2 years ago
If you read through the comments you will get your answer.
BUT,
In short you release the clutch so the gears in the transmission speed up or slow down to match for proper engagement.
Newer transmissions have synchronizer gears to do it for you.
zimtok 2 years ago
...therefor it is useless to practice such a technique if you have synchronizers?
i heard it is used as a racing technique, where many of them had synchromesh transmissions
standardwolfsburg 2 years ago
Yes, they use it in racing... but mostly for quicker downshifting.
For your daily driver the syncros will allow you to shift at a normal speed, and most daily drivers don't down shift ALL the time.
If I didn't double clutch with this bus and just waited until the transmission was ready to be shifted I would loose about half my speed gain between each shift.
.
zimtok 2 years ago
ahh ok ok i see...
thanks for taking the time answer; you've made a young man a little more knowledgeable today :P
standardwolfsburg 2 years ago
I'm not sure if that applies to semi-truck transmissions, though..:-)
SteveCarras 2 years ago
modern cars all have synchronizes, which adjust everything so that it shifts smoothly. synchro are not perfect though, so double clutching still gives you a smoother ride if you do it right. also on large trucks and older vehicles, there are unsynchronized transmission, and double clutching is a necessity.
201200098 2 years ago
Also, as mentioned here, the higher speed that the gear's supposed to have, the SLOWER it'll turn, nad the intended lower gears relevant to the faster, turn FASTER than the others [mentioned before on this entry form.]
Read the previous comments posted.:)
SteveCarras 2 years ago
what's the point of double clutching?
kingcamilo 2 years ago
more smoothly switching gears, and smoother acceleration while switching gears. They do it a lot during racing.
coilgunner2 2 years ago 2
I take it that the last poster, coilgunner2, was answering your question, kingcamilo. It helps shift the gears of big vehicles and old buses like the one featured [GMC "Highway Traveler" PD-4104, this with 4 gears and non-synchro, located at the back of the bus], and also is done while using the accelator to attain the opposite of what each gear does: i.e., to upshift, you would slow down before doing the above, then downshifting requires a bit of pressure on the gas [as said by many here].
SteveCarras 2 years ago
I was under the impression that when you double clutch you need to rev the engine to the appropriate rpm for the next gear (after clutching it once)... anyone know?
TGNT 2 years ago
that is a race technique for downshifting
jorikrademakers 2 years ago
yeah u do
jmurray01 2 years ago
Someone requested downshifitng, and the poster ["zimtok"] assured once he'd get the hang of THAT, he'd ;post one..but
this video itself will suffice..haven't been on one of these for ages..
SteveCarras 2 years ago
can u make another one of these type of videos my friend that would be great man.
denjen010 2 years ago
What do you want to see that isn't in this video?
zimtok 2 years ago
Perhaps we should be glad two stick transmisisons exist only on big rigs and "jeeps" and not on buses [GM Futurliners tried this, but these were not rode by the public!] The old stick ones, of cours,e only had one not count cases like Crowns with Roadranger 10 speeds and such.
SteveCarras 2 years ago
If you think shifting a floor-mounted four speed shifter [not to mention the more challenging big riggers]-not to the poster of the video,of course, so much but as to the "newbies" here, - is a challenge, you ought to try [I am not a bus driver, incidentally:)] shiftinga SILVERSIDES [GM 1938-1948,in the pre-1945 years Yellow Cach, GM's org.umbrella]--column shifted and such. There's even a video or two about them.
SteveCarras 2 years ago
Old semi-trucks from Brazil also, from the 60s to the 80s. That's what that Portuguese phrase means.
gunterbr 2 years ago
caminhao velho do brasil tambem , das decadas entre 60 e 80
heureco 3 years ago
?
can you translate?
zimtok 3 years ago
Incidentally, My GM INTERCITY COACHES book [2003, Iconographix Press, authors Brian Grams and ANdrew Gold-and no Gold'n'Grams jokes, please], states the PD 4104 was built 1953-1960, making it (with the Scenicrusier, GMC PD-4501] one of the first "Fishbowl/slant-ended" styled buses [the type that GM and Flxible used so succesfully later on their transit/suburbans, and making the bus in the video among the last PD 4104's ever built.
SteveCarras 3 years ago
Buses with no clutch brake are
GMC
MCI
With them:
Gillig
Crown.
As one of the previous posters said, pusher don't would not have them, and frankly, I don't see the advantage of having a clutch brake versus using the clutch itself. I'm surprised there are any syncrho's on any large vehicles, even current ones, OR a "clutchless" arrangement with split/range change [like on "Roadranger" set-ups].
SteveCarras 3 years ago
id be limping after 1 hour driving thaat thing ill grind before i go back into double clutching again just watching this video my clutch knee started paining.arrggggh.!!!
jmagic32971 3 years ago
I would probably be limping also if it were not for the air assist I have on the clutch. It isn't any harder to push then the clutch on my 65 GTO....
zimtok 3 years ago
looks to me like hes tearin the clutch break out... shouldn't have 2 push the pedal to the floor!
jamesakaduke 3 years ago
There is no clutch brake on this bus.
zimtok 3 years ago
Finally.on the Scenicruisers [not pictured above but still GMC, different model], a final
interesting thing:p[probaly known though to most coach owners] Transmission originally was a three speed with a two speed fluid coupling (different bus than the one above which is a 4104, but making an interesting comment),with a dual engine, but this was not that successful, so the Scenicruisers [for those who wonder] sswitched to the usual 4 speed.
SteveCarras 3 years ago
One other thing:On a PDF file form a May 1974 things get Scenicruiser's then 20th anniversary, it mentioned a few electric clutches.Works same, these few "electric clutch" Scenicruisers's [PD 4105] clutches were same as the pedal ones.A treadle was installed instead of the usual pedal (a exception tohugh..).
SteveCarras 3 years ago
No stick buses with skme exceptions and almost NO bigger stick shift newer or older (certainly NO older) trucks had syncromesh, with some exceptions (I'd rather, again, double clutch those had I driven the trucks or stuff..synchrozied transmission on larger vehicles, either old OR new, doesn't make much sense at all to me.)
SteveCarras 3 years ago
MThies's video of a 1966 Dodge has a comment, or at elast one of nthe vids did about this bus having a Synchro (a Gas or stick back then I could understand, having ridden Chevy, Crown, and Ford and such), and can only say a schynro on a bus, for am manual, especially back then, is unthinkable to me. BTW Cars did not have 'erm either until years ago, and of course neither do big trucks, but virtually all of us know that..
SteveCarras 3 years ago
do american busses/trucks have syncro boxes? because if they do normaly you wont have to double clutch
ramawson 3 years ago
The older buses did not have syncro trans...
.
zimtok 3 years ago
oh ok
ramawson 3 years ago
PadmeJonez:
"You did good, dude! :)"
You sure did!
SteveCarras 3 years ago
This is, as we know, a 4-speed manual (with solenoid reverse on the shift from 1 to 2). Now, I guess the shift pattern proper for the 4 forward speeds was just like on a car [minus the synchro for the forward..and I guess the reverse was to ahead of 2nd or to the right (I've heard onclificting comments as to where the switch was swithced to)
Anyway, I presume as I was syaing it just had a nomral shift pattern (no over or under).
Like this:(excluding the reverse "split")
13
24
SteveCarras 3 years ago
Yes a 4 speed as you say just like a car
The reverse is solenoid activated... with it in 1st hold the reverse switch and pull it into 2nd position and release the switch. It will not come out of reverse until it is put back into 1st.
zimtok 3 years ago
Used to love it when school bus driver would take their test in a 4104. I would get them back to the garage and have them back into the parking lane. Enjoyed watching them hunt for reverse.
Dusty754 2 years ago
Sunnyhill Adventures needs a bus like this one.
Streetcar1743 3 years ago
Comment removed
SteveCarras 3 years ago
Comment removed
SteveCarras 3 years ago
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SteveCarras 3 years ago
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SteveCarras 3 years ago
Can you explain how the linkage works from the shifter to the trans, which I presume is behind the rear wheels. I've seen schematics of GM buses 1959 and older, with standard trans., and the power is off the right-side end of the diesel on a 45 degree-angle to the differential. Is the shift-linkage mechanical or achieved with some kind of servo-motors to correspond with what the driver is doing with the stick?
sidomitch 3 years ago
The shifter is connected to the transmission with mechanical linkage running down the center of the buss just under the floor.
zimtok 3 years ago
WTF does double clutching do anyways? Doesn't seem like it does much of anything to me, I could be ignorant though.
Vertigopills 3 years ago
If you read the prev comments you'll have your answer.
zimtok 3 years ago
nice vid. cool bus.
mujjuman 3 years ago
Are u serious! you actually use the clutch when driving your rig, I only use it to start ot stop, after that it just feeds itself.
amitsahi307 3 years ago
Is your "rig" a 1960 4104 Bus?
Have you ever driven an old Bus?
zimtok 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
who cares its just a slow truck or what ever
sergiomarcarroyo 3 years ago
Didn't your mom ever tell you that if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything.
OR
Maybe you fallinto the catagory of:
It's better to reamin silent and thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt.
.
zimtok 3 years ago
Stay in your free play area before the first inch before the clutch engages then hold and shift both times into next gear by just boving your big toe about a half inch,your going to wear your clutch out going into clutch brake for all your shifts should only use it for 1st or reverse.
billjriv1 3 years ago
I think that had a switch for reverswe like many pthers.
SteveCarras 3 years ago
Yes,
For reverse you put it in 1st gear hold the switch and pull it back into 2nd gear, now in reverse.
zimtok 3 years ago
If you insist on double clutching, only push it about an inch or two. only push it to the floor to get your starting gear otherwise you'll ware the clutch brake out and have to grind it into gear to get moving. You really ought to float it anyway.
5150ou812 3 years ago 3
This bus doesn't have a clutch brake.
mtheis85 3 years ago
Are you sure?I thought any non syncro has a clutch brake.
pwarren1010 3 years ago
well, if it does have a clutch brake, it definitely isn't working!
andyofvermont 3 years ago
Some did not have a clutch brake. I drove 4104, 4106. and 4905 with no clutch brake. If you do things right you donj't need the clutch except for stopping and starting. It is real easy to up and down shift without using the clutch. Observe the highest speed registered on the speedometer and those points will indicate downshift points.
Dusty754 2 years ago
@5150ou812 How can so many people rate this comment positive when it's just WRONG?? There's no clutch brake, the pedal has to be pushed in all the way.
CreRay 10 months ago
By the way, speaking of bus performance, Road and Track actually test drove a greyhound bus in 1969. I forget which month (try october). I don't think it was a 4104, probably an MC-something, but it had a detroit of course and a 4-speed manual. It was a full road & track style road test; I think they even did their usual slalom and skidpad tests. It'd be worth tracking down and putting in the reading rack in the head. :-)
andyofvermont 3 years ago
1969? Chances are it was an MC-7. the MC-8 didn't come out until 1973.
BassmanII 3 years ago
I haven't gotten around to tracking down the article yet, but I do recall that the bus they road tested had a helper axle in the back, but the helper axle was hidden by fairing so that at a glance it looked like there was only one rear axle. If that narrows it down any.
andyofvermont 3 years ago
Sometimes I wonder why the accelerator pedal on busses is not just an on/off switch. Not sure I've ever seen one just part-way down! Also kind of funny how you had to edit between shifts to keep the video from being too long! :-P Ah... busses! I'll get there when I get there!
andyofvermont 3 years ago
You certainly cannot be in a hurry when driving a vehicle like this.
zimtok 3 years ago
Can these stall?
codyj702 3 years ago
Any vehicle/engine can be stalled.
I stalled this bus on a hill of all places. Too much clutch release and not enought RPMs will do it every time.
zimtok 3 years ago
yo man I want that shifter for my civic! that would be Phat man,soes with my 20 inch dubs and my 3 plane wing. 88 civic 780 Hp stock motor with megacan muffler
TrackratM3 3 years ago
Nice! But I want to see some DOWNshifting. That's where it counts! :-)
andyofvermont 3 years ago
Once i get better at downshifting I will do a video.
zimtok 3 years ago
LOL... I thought you said in your interview you couldn't do it well... looked like you had it all under control!
PadmeJonez 3 years ago
The "Interview" video was done 4 months before the "Double Clutching" video.
It's amazing how much better I got in that time.
zimtok 3 years ago
You did good, dude! :)
PadmeJonez 3 years ago
seems like your going to far down with your clutch,, does this truck have a clutch brake?
weedbeds 3 years ago
It's not a truck It's a 1960 GMC Bus.
And, NO it doesn't have a clutch brake.
zimtok 3 years ago
Is that a detroit?
Righty736 3 years ago
It is...
DD 6-71..
zimtok 3 years ago
that stick is wearing a t-shirt
tonycl568 3 years ago 4
You are only partially correct...
It is the material that is produced here in the US prior to being shipped overseas to then become T-Shirts.
zimtok 3 years ago
lolol, gear stick t-shirt
KamiKaziChicken 3 years ago
who ever uses a clutch??? Only when stopped,lol
burnerdown1 3 years ago
It generally helps when you change gear burnerdown1
KamiKaziChicken 3 years ago
I drive transport for a living , l guess when your new you should use the clutch, but ask any vetern driver, nobody uses it, in city traffic, your leg would be dead from all that clutching, and if done right you dont need to use the clutch only when at a stop
burnerdown1 3 years ago
In city traffic there's traffic lights, you stop all the time =s
KamiKaziChicken 3 years ago
clutch in nutrual clutch out clutch back in next gear
mackmodleR123 3 years ago
What does double clutching do?
thebestdayeversong 3 years ago
Read the comments below and on the next page you will find your answer.
zimtok 3 years ago
There is no need to even use the clutch except for stopping andstarting from a stop. I have driven buses and shifted without even using the clutch. You need only listen to your engine to know when to shift. Even had one bus that the clutch was stuck engaged. Had to use a different technique for stopping and starting from a stop, but never ground any gears.
Dusty754 3 years ago
I can and have driven many vehicles without using the clutch.
I'm not saying it can't be done but the old buses are differnet.
Have you driven a Bus with a non syncronized transmission or a clutch brake? Add to that a slow response on the engine deceleration and the bus will slow down faster tehn you can get it into gear.
zimtok 3 years ago
THe busses I drove are the GM 4104, 4106 and 4905. Onve you get used to listening to the engine, you don't need a clutch. On hills the speedodometer helps you to know when you can downshift. But my technique was to bring to governor then ease off the throttle, pull out of first then off the throttle completely and listen. When I could not hear the engine I put it into second. No grinding. Slipped in like it was greased.
Dusty754 3 years ago
I've read on some site that the 4905's had SYNCROMESH [but were still very hard going like others were---these late sixtiies to seventies models had that reputation, and that's something that I read. Never drove any myself, though.]
SteveCarras 2 years ago
the double clutching is only for old trucks
nando74ooo2 4 years ago
Is that a joke?
double clutching matches RPM speeds so your clutch doesnt drag...
GriffinW1 4 years ago
I have removed your comments replies. (argumentative replies)
I respect all comments but do not like the attitude or language used in the relies to this comment.
You can repost your replies but lets be a little more adult about it and make them constructive.
zimtok 3 years ago
what exactly is the point of double clutching? i never understood it, when i've driven 9 speeds and 13 speeds i've only clutched just once.. not twice
darkmp40 4 years ago
Old transmissions do not have "syncronized" gears.
By pushing in the clutch the first time you are able to take it out of that gear.
You have released the accelerator pedal and the engine will drop its RPM.
When you release the clutch the transmission will slow down to the engine speed.
When you push the clutch in the second time you can put it into the next gear.
zimtok 4 years ago
Oh, ok thanks :)
darkmp40 4 years ago
Comment removed
SteveCarras 3 years ago
you could do this without using clutch
tomthepope 3 years ago
Great video. I did not realize you had to double-clutch those old buses. But it makes sense, as most large transmissions can't handle synchronizers. Thanks for posting.
jeffr890 4 years ago
What is the point of double clutching? Is it to keep the tranny rotating or maybe slow it down?
ntxic8td 4 years ago
man do u race at all...
iNfaMousYaj 4 years ago
Double clutching is used to match the transmission shaft rpm to the engine rpm to allow smooth shifting on vehicles with no synchronizers or worn ones. It is not used for racing.
Donkey2454 4 years ago
How come you dont use the throttle to match speeds?
ntxic8td 4 years ago
You can use the throttle to "rev-match" when downshifting...
Donkey2454 4 years ago
Can't match speeds when up shifting. Matching speeds requires an increase in engine rpm to bring it up to match tranny rpm. This works when downshifting only.
Dusty754 3 years ago
Not true...
The lower gear you were in is running fast.
The next gear you need to go to is running slower. You need to allow the engine to come down to the slower running gear to engage it.
zimtok 3 years ago
Nice video, Scott!
RustySax 4 years ago
between mashing the cluch all the way to the floor and riding your foot on the cluch i think your going to have to replace the cluch before the video is over. Dont need the cluch break to get you out of gear.
keepontruckin07 4 years ago
My foot may be touching the clutch pedal but there is NO preasure on it. it takes quite a bit of force to depress the clutch at first and then the air assist helps.
It is a smoother transition getting it out of gear when using the clutch. The 671 in conjunction with the accelerator pedal cable length makes it difficult to easily find an engine RPM.
This bus does not shift like any truck I've driven.
zimtok 4 years ago
The GMC 4104 did not have an air assisted clutch. It used pure muscle and some of them had real nasty clutch springs.
Dusty754 3 years ago
This 4104 has the air assist installed on the clutch.
I recently rebuilt the throttle cable and now it is smooth as silk.
Shifting is even easier now then when I did this video.
zimtok 3 years ago
The company I worked for bought used Tamiami Trailways coaches. I guarantee they did NOT have air assist on anything. We did have four 4905's, two of them had air throttles. Shifting the air throttle ones required a different technique like NOT bringing the rpm to the governor.
Dusty754 3 years ago
Dusty,
I will try it on my 4104 now that the throttle is more responsive. I'm curious to see which way will be a quicker shift.
zimtok 3 years ago
There is NO clutch brake on the transmission of this particular coach.
RustySax 4 years ago
i love my sequencial 6 :)
oldsklteg 4 years ago
LOL nice
90Turbo7m 4 years ago
why use clutch on crash gearbox?
tomthepope 4 years ago
You use it until you learn, with lots of practice, how to do it smoothly, then you can practice shifting w/o the clutch.
RustySax 4 years ago
To much clutch mate.
ish6669 4 years ago
Not really, on the bus transmissions, especially non-progressive seven speed on down, you have to use the clutch brake to shift.
BassmanII 4 years ago
No clutch brake on a GMC coach 4-speed.
RustySax 4 years ago
True, I'm more familiar with the Spicers on the MCIs
BassmanII 4 years ago
No clutch brake on them, either! Very rare in a "pusher" bus, but often found in a mid-ship Crown or Gillig.
RustySax 4 years ago
And that kids is why Syncros were invented. :)
epicvelocity 4 years ago
I classed a few gears when I was learning -
GenericGene 4 years ago
WHERE IS THE SEAT BELT1!?!?!?!!!!!
4106032 4 years ago
No seat belt on a 1960 vintage bus....
zimtok 4 years ago
In MY opinion,I have seen some of your Bus Conversions are being driven by Owners who do NOT have a Back ground in Driving Non-Syncro Transmission...So telling them that they can shift without the Clutch can be very interesting at least.....This Video is very good on show how it is done....I only hope that after shifting the driver takes his foot off of the clutch pedal....It is NOT a foot rest...Could cause premature wear on the Throw-out (or release) Bearing
4106032 4 years ago
This is a 4 Speed transmission and does not have synchronized gears.
It is a 6-71 Detroit Diesel.
The throttle response is sluggish at best.
Double clutching is not the only way, it is just the BEST way to shift the gears of this bus.
zimtok 4 years ago
double clutching is a waste because you can float the gears and shift without the clutch at all. Theirs a great video of shifting a 18 speed transmission without using the clutch on this site check it out.
blarsonchicago 4 years ago
Yes it may be possible to cheat and do that if you can rev match the gears almost exactly, but if you are a) driving an older vehicle or b) driving a semi truck or a vehicle without synchros you MUST double-clutch or risk wrecking your transmission.
RobertMcWhirter 4 years ago
Check out my video on shifting. It is called "Workin Them Gears" I'm in a semi-truck going up and down without touching the clutch until I have to come to a complete stop.
piratebobstreasure 4 years ago
Yes you can float the gears and shift w/o the clutch, it just takes a LOT of practice.
RustySax 4 years ago
Double clutch shifting both up and down is unnescesary when you get the technique. But it depends on the motor aswell. I've found that with a perkins you gotta give it a blip but with most others you just slip it out of gear while lifting off the throttle and it should slip straight in, all at the right rpm of course. For starters try shifting at about 1600-1700 rpm and it should synchronise by itself and slip in at about 1400-1500rpm.
cv8rmonaro 4 years ago
With only four speeds in this transmission and the Detroit two-stroke motor, best performance comes from winding it up to the governor (2100 rpm) and then