I read the vids' descriptions and appreciate your story and your candour. I'm not sure I agree about "not blaming the victim", because in the case of religion, the victims are usually the victimizers of the next generation. Confrontation or ridicule is often the most effective way to make such a person look at the weaknesses of their belief system, and given the harm they often do to trusting children (who are taught that they are evil by nature and must submit or else face eternal damnation).
good luck on that one. Most people believe in some god and it is i feel to cover up their fear of life. I've been atheist for most of my life 45 years or more and believe me it has been a happy and fullfulling life. I doubt you will ever get people to take a look at their beliefs in a logical fashion. Hell look at the junk that is sold on Tv to heal this or make one feel good and it's crap yet everyone still buys it. Can i tell an astrologist that he believes in crap i don't think so.
There are a lot of people out there in all religions and including world views like atheism, that will teach false doctrines, whether on a spiritual level or a humanist level. Jesus Christ himself said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing and to test the spirit's first. This whole notion of blind Christianity is not Christian like, and if you believe blindly you will be disappointed. U seem to be very intelligent, so let me remind u to not judge an entire group by the actions of a few.
I agree with you it is quite blasphemous when people say they are speaking God's words and they aren't and I guess when you stuck your finger up at them that might well be what God was thinking too. Piaget says we start off at a level where we believe what we are told and then reject that and form our own beliefs based on experience and honesty and it sounds as if that is what you are bravely doing but as a Christian I hope you arrive back at your own more real understanding of God one day.
I got active about atheism after I suffered a bad Christmas sermon that tried to hook people by tring to fire guilt-trips. I just went to greet people and have nice cultural experience at a village curch. But I got bad demagogy that topped with money begging.
It's true... Christians love and need 'sin' and 'guilt' without it they don't have much to stand on. There are various misfunctions and things can cause real pain that need to be learnt to dealt with but that's all...
He wouldn't have been able to show you therefore he would have been shamed in front of the congregation for teaching a false teaching. The word is not unto someones personal interpretation. What another believer gains from a scripture is the same understanding another should get if they both be full of repentence and thirst for wisdom from the Most High. Christianity has turned more people into athiest than any other religion. What religion was Christ? He had none.
Because if he truly served the Most High and kept his commandments he would not have treated you in that fashion. I would advise that you read the bible for yourself and pray to the most high so that you gain an understanding of this life. The road you are now taking is a broad road that will only lead to misery and destruction. Precept upon Precept, Line upon Line. Instead of flicking him off you should've asked him to show you that in scripture.
Everything you use has a craftman behind it. The human body is a wonderfully created speciman. Who created it though? Evolution doesn't explain nothing. U see Christ came to warn the people who were caught up in religion that you should obey God and not follow the traditions of Men. Traditions of Men is still being taught inside the churches today basically polluting whatever it touches. I believe that is the main reason your pastor acted the way he did.
You write as if religion is monolithic and universally fundamentalist. As an educated person, you know better than that. Your implied disavowal of the histories of education (Harvard, Princeton, et. al.) and science (Michael Faraday comes to mind) and hospitals (How many atheist hospitals are there?) is beneath you. Your exclusive focus on religionists that you don't like is quite disappointing.
Charities (the Soup kitchens you mentioned) be careful here just because a religious organization hands out a warm meal it is seldom with no strings attached. Often it is served AFTER a service, you dont go to service you dont eat. Other times help is denied because the client may not fit the mold of the church they may be homosexual for example. The Salvation Army is notorious for this. This is nothing to hold up as an example.
Communication-(the literature and painting and music you mentioned) the church has done more to stop free speech. Think about how they reacted to things that they perceive as being against them. They wanted to band the Golden compass. Tried to keep Piss Christ from traveling around the country, and wanted statues that have been in the nations capitol for years to be cover because they show cleavage.
No the church does not contribute to theses thing rather it retards them.
My point is that this "new form of KOO-KOO" has been (and remains) the motivation for many of these good things in society. Mine was a very short list! If you eliminate this "new form of KOO-KOO", you would eliminate them, too.
Oh! I BEG to differ. The fact is that religion has done more to hider these things than it has to promote them
Education-(the universities you mentioned) I am an educator by trade. If the religious right had its way we would be teaching loads of misinformation, a skewed view of history, intelligent design, Abstinence only education for example.
Science-(the hospitals you mentioned) Science and religion are like oil and water they dont mix. In fact religion is anti-science. Take a look at the whole evolution creation debate. Most creationist try to debate this topic without even an elementary understanding of what evolution actually is. For example most creationist equate evolution with the beginning of the universe, the 2 are not one in the same.
Religion has worked to stop the progress of science stem cells for example. In addition the spiritual mafia has work to make medical treatments inaccessible (Dr. Tiller) and eliminate the right of individuals to make their own medical decisions (Terri Schiavo). In addition to all this the church also give out boat loads of medical misinformation think of the Pope and what he said about condoms in Africa. This is not new; think about Galileo the church has a history of being anti-science!
I am not making the connection here. Why would I want to eliminate the universities and hospitals and soup kitchens and literature and painting and music? these things can be ran by secular and religious agents and often make no claim to being the sole keeper on the one universal truth. so whats your point?
or if they told you about Pauls thorn in the flesh and Gods answer to him, My grace is sufficient for you. would you have listened to that?
The faith you rejected is twisted, stunted and immature. Have you considered an honest, mature, realistic, educated faith? Just wondering. Thank you for your story. It means a lot to me.
I hear the anger in your writing and do understand and even agree with you point about unhealthy it was to bounce form church to church. Although I don't think it was the victims fault. Keep in mind I TRULY believed this stuff and I was leaving to get what their lack of faith was keeping from me. and yes one of the things that made me leave was the whole thorn in the flesh teaching,
What I now know is I don't need to be healed I am fine just the way I am NOT because some imaginary magic man in the sky sprinkles grace dust on me, but because I have my own self made strength and don't need to relay on any one or anything outside of me. To relay of god's grace is just as unhealthy as to relay on Copeland.
I have heard this argument before the next point in the augment goes something like... you need to be with more moderate believers the people you were with were on the fringe. the truth is that the fringe raises out of the moderate, and it is that moderates that give the fringe a place to hide out. therefore all your asking me to do is exchange my old form of crazy for a new form of KOOK-KOO. Both are wrong, both are dangerous, both need to be eliminated
realize that I am approaching the hazard of blaming the victim with this comment, but I wonder if you would consider this possibility. Sometimes women are repeatedly attracted to men who abuse them. Your tale describes your movement deeper and deeper into unhealthy, abusive forms of religion. That is perfectly understandable in your case, but I wonder, if a priest or pastor or Sunday School teacher had counseled you that sometimes God answers our prayers with a No. ...
I want you to know how captivated I am by your story. I am angered by those who took advantage of your understandable desire for healing. So, I am not surprised that when you finally realized what they were doing to you, you flipped them off. But I grieve that you seem to have flipped off all the good along with the bad. ...
Hi Jeff, I will try to answer your questions when I can. Right now I am on my mothers computer and mine is in the dumper. I had to restore my operating system and now my network software will not minstall right.
Hi Paul,,,, I really look forward to talking to you again. I hope to get to know you. I found one of my radio shows where I tell my story. I'll send you a link as soon as possible.
I could be moving tommorow. So it might be a long time before I get back online. Take care.
Hi brother Paul,, sorry to hear youtube is closing your channels.
I still want to share my radio show called ,,,"my story",,, with you. Things are just really crazy and I have not even had time to upload it to my podcast account. I always have more work that I can see the end of. But now I am having family problems also,, and that makes things much worse.
I hope to be in touch with you soon. Thanks for your undertsanding. Damon
ok ii has been more than a month and nothing lets face it. You know wont let you just throw out some mytological bull shit I would be demanding some empirical evidence, evidence you can not provide. So you offered NOTHING! This is what I expected would happen put up or shut up
Emperial evidence???? Paul,, I dont mean to hurt your feelings. BUT you have offer absolutely NO empirical evidence of any kind. All you have done is tell *your story* about how the Christians told you that you must be healed, you was not healed, and therefore it must be your fault. PURE BULLSHIT. Now if the bible taught that all people get healed, if they have enough faith, it would be easy to demonstrate this with the scripture. But it does not.
So where is the bible verses that says it is always Gods will to heal???
I found my testimony from a radio show I did. It took me weeks to get it uploaded because I found it on a cd-but my cdrom is broke. Since I got it uploaded. I have tried for days to get it to you. But I have been swamped with all sorts of stuff. You can listen ti it or not. I care not. BUT BEFORE you go to ranting again. Prove that the bible claims God always heals all sickness,.
And prove your just not pissed at God because you did not get healed and hate Christianity because Christians told you that you must be healed. I talked with a guy named Justin Peters yesterday he has CP and praises God for it. I have an illness and praise God for it. What is your problem?
My 2005 testimony is here if you would like to listen. Thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog(DOT)com/2009/06/25/project-86-show-with-damon-whitsell-story/
HI BRR, I wish that was the case. But since Paul became a proud atheist. I don't see how his story can be interpreted to mean what you said. I blame the churches. There are many people who are crushed by churches. Paul is not the only one to lose faith in God because they went to a church that lied and told them it was Gods will to heal them. And if they did not get healed, then it was their fault. SO MANY,, have said,, there can be no God, because He would have let this happen. SO THEY GIVE UP
SO PAUL,,, if I seem hard on you or harsh,,, it is not because I do not like ya. Please know that. I would just like to see you have peace. And peace with God. I have no bad intentions.
I heard your story,, and it hurts me to see another be hurt by religious people and cult like groups,, just to fall into total unbelief.
Hi Paul, Ya know I had an Idea. I was throwing the ball for my dog, getting his exercise. And it occurred to me that you suffer from bad and unbiblical theology. Not just you. But all of us, at one time or another. See I have a mood disorder from brain injury that God has not healed me of. And when I suffered from bad theology. I thought I should be healed and that it was Gods will for me to be healed. And that if I was not healed, it was because something was wrong with me.
But that was many years ago. So I thought I would challenge you to a little dialogue in email. If you will try to prove that the bible says we are all supposed to always be healed. I think I can show you where your wrong,,, if that is your view of bible theology. I am so thankful that I am not healed. I dont like perfect people,,,, so I am glad I am not one of them. I am just fine in my imperfections. God has blessed me to keep me inflicted.
well I could go through the motions of proving that but I am not sure how that would be helpful. I mean I dont believe that any more, so why would we do this. I dont believe in little green men but if I needed to I could "prove it" but that would be pointless,
Why dont you prove to me the Bible is the infallible word of god
I dont think you can prove it at all. Or I would not have challenged you. If the bible says it is always Gods will to heal,,, you could prove that it says so. I cannot prove that the Bible is the Word of God. I can too my certainty, but not yours. The bible says it is the WoG. But that is not proof,,, so I wont bore you with circular reasoning. But YES,,, I do believe the bible is the WoG. I think there is external evidences for this,,but the biggest evidence is that it nailed me perfectly.
As I said before I am an ___. No sugar coating at all. That is why I dont think the bible does not come from man. It would wreak of humanism of it did. And I dont buy the old line that man wrote the bible to repress man. People write books for that reason all the time. Yet the bible has always transcended generations. I could say much about this topic.
But its all subjective. Just like saying the Bible is not the WoG. Its opinion and we will not know for sure untilwe die and it is put to the test. That is why they call it faith.
Great please do I am open to discussion but I am noting a pattern here your posts say I COULD say this but I WONT . Why wont you? I'm wondering if it is that you wont or CANT? As an apologist shouldnt you "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. " yet you cant or wont. you speak of this hope tell me I should have the same hope but when I press you for a reason I dont get one, It seems that your hope is subjective like the wog.
It would not matter if you proved me right or wrong! The bible is irrelevant to me so what it says or does not say means nothing. What makes me laugh is that you want me to trust Jesus based on the word of god. Yet you say the wog is subjective. So that makes the lordship of Christ, plan of salvation, virgin birth, second birth and the reality of heaven/hell subjective as well, Why should I accept Jesus based on a subjective book that you wont or cant defend? Isn't that the point of apologistics
Hi Paul. I just got home and have to get a shower and something to eat. I will try to respond tonight or in the mornining.
I thought about you on the way home tonight and thought about sending you a private video to tell you a little about myself. So I think I will do that. And I will adress your latest questions.
I want to say that I admire your fire and tenacity. You might have CP,,, but you have a strong proverbial backbone.
It doesn't really matter what the bible says because each religion has a set of beliefs and the faithful will cling to those beliefs regardless. Look how many people belief that Jesus is God. The bible says he is the son of God. How many millions of people think they will go to heaven? Jehovah's Witnesses will tell you the bible says a literal 144,000. On what basis would anyone determine the "TRUE" religion?
I hope you will try just Jesus,,,,, before you give all Christian things the big dump. You story kind of reminds me of me, but kind of opposite. I have never been in a Christian Cult. But I have 5 different cults in my Family. It is painful just to have to deal with them. My favorite quote is,,, I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do.—D. Dale Gulledge
So what your asking me to do is join into you delusion because it is a better form of insanity than my old form of the Kook-coos,
You missed a major part of what I had to say. Not only was I mistreated I became more educated. I did not just leave due to personal pain I also left because I out grew the need for mythology. The existence of a god makes no seance,it is illogical
I am now a better person with out trying to please the imaginary daddy in the sky.
Hi Paul,,, Thanks for sharing your story and your feelings and education.
You should educate yourself on true christianity,,, and not judge Jesus by **Christian Cults**,,, not any of his followers for that matter, We are all asses. Just like you.
Are you calling me an ASS? How CHRISTIAN of you. Oh that's right you are following the one who killed a fig tree just because it had nothing for him to eat. Keep in mind this same Jesus claimed he could turn stone to bread. So why no kill a guys tree, even if the tree was part of his lively-hood yup you act just like christ!
The more I poke the more you display your true nature. All you can do is get mad and call names. What happened to "be angry and sin not"!
For that matter what happened to apologistics? You have not made one REAL Argument. If we had this conversation in person I am sure you would get louder and louder, this is how it goes with anyone who treats mythology as if it were real. Their reality is challenged, they are shown to be wrong they stomp there feet the higher the volume the lower the logic.
Can you show me the bible verse that says it is a sin to call yourself, every Christian, every other person and you an ass,,, is a sin? For a person with no religion, you sure are militant, sanctimonious and overflowing with reverent piety. ALL I SAID WAS,,,,, Don't judge Jesus or Christianity (as a whole) on the basis of your experience with pseudo-Christian counterfeit cults. Your qualified to talk about RC, Adventism, AOG and WoF.
But your ignorant of the biblical Jesus Christ and Christianity. BUT you rail on,,, showing your predispositional ASS. So dont be a self righteous snit that has to take the high and holy better than thou road. I called myself and ass. You have my permission to echo that. That is of your self righteous spirit will allow it.
ok I will admit I can get a bit snappy. I really dont do this to be mean, rather it comes out of a twisted seance of humor. I have re-read the conversation and dont like the tone of it, (not what I want for this channel.)
However you have no idea what by biblical back ground is, Nor are you really understanding my journey. I am assuming you are lumping Adventist into a group of cults thinking Advent Christians are the same as 7th day Adventist. it not. Bring up a topic and let dialog.
Hi Paul. I am not sure I want to dialogue. I dont think apologetics can bend the will. BUT I wanted to share with you that your not the only one to have had a bad go with groups like you have mentioned that you where a part of. My whole family is real religious and cultic. I have Mormons, UPC, WoF, Apostolics, bible missionaries, secular atheist and occultist in my family.
In spite of most of them telling me I would go to hell for not believing and practicing what they do. I somehow found my truth in Jesus anyway. Maybe its because I cannot say I have not sinned in 30 years,,, like some of them do. So I have no beef with you. I pity you for your religious experience though. I mean,,, it hurts like hell just to have to relate to the cultic people in my own family.
If had been in your shoes, maybe I would have flipped off the pastor (or bopped his nose), the church and Jesus too. I have walked away from Jesus before, so in a since, I have flipped him off. I wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I do cult exposure work, and your story inspires me to not give up. THEY TRASH SOULS ALL OVER THE PLACE. And their effects must be mitigated as much as possible. So thanks for sharing.
Hi Paul, Thanks for sharing your story. I have to say WOW. You have had a real bad go with many Christian Cults. I hate to see that you have been soured about all religion by your experiences. I got a cousin who will always be pantheist because his Dad is a Mormon Bishop. I got a friend who is paralyzed because he followed the Word of Faith Movement. I have been a Christian for a long time. But I only found a church I could join about a year ago.
Ok, first I will say that I agree that most religions are a deadly disease and need stopping. But I want to ask you what all do you include in your definition of religion? Because atheism can be considered a religion it self, and any other beliefs that person has and lives by. That is why I said most reilgions are a deadly disease, and not all. You have to believe something don't you???
But I want to ask you what all do you include in your definition of religion? Because atheism can be considered a religion it self, and any other beliefs that person has and lives by.
Honestly, that is plain circular logic. Everything can be interpreted, whether it is a good idea or not. The real defenition for atheism, and the most popular, is the lack of belief in a supernatural deity. Of course, everything is open to interpretation so you can believe what you want, it's your entitlement. Anything else you want to say?
Ok, again I did not even give my interpretation of atheism. I said it can be considered a religion just like anything else a person believes or ideas that people follow. Or tell me now what is your interpretation of religion?
I believe Pepsi is better than Coke. Is that a religion? I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put you down but I wanted to show you the flaw in your argument.
A Straw Man Argument is is an fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. It goes like this:
A) The theory of evolution must be taught in science class.
B) No because evolution can't prove how the universe got started.
B is a fallacy because evolution is biology and has nothing to do with Big Bang Theory-cosmology.
Ok so a straw man argument is an fallacy based on misrepesentation of an opponent's position. If that is the case than I can say your Coke and Pepsi example is a Straw Man Argument. Because we believe a lot of things, but again "my" interpretation of religion is not what we believe(I believe Pepsi is better than Coke) but, what we believe in and/or follow and/or live by. Examples, I believe in (myself,God,Devil,Science,money,etc)
No ALL religion is deadly, if fact ANY belief in god is a sign of mental illness an illness that needs treatment. Atheism does not qualify as a religion. It does not have a core set of beliefs, it is not organized. I know this game it is an attempt to proselytize the next line goes something like "It takes more faith not to believe in god then it does to believe in god" this is just foolish.
who says I have to believe in something other then myself? I don't
I can understand why you would want to slap him his actions were unacceptable. But would you slap me for having CP? I HOPE NOT. He is ill a belief in god in an illness. He and all religious folks need treatment NOT abuse,
You are right I should not have sought out god for healing . I am fine the way I am. I didn't think I needed healing until the church convinced me I did. Nor do I need a god to make me whole in any other way. I'm whole. The church is master of convincing people they need things that they really dont and claiming to be the sole answer to that need, (healing, forgiveness of sin, or the sense of helplessness that you allude to.) These needs are made up, the hook used to get people under control.
Well I want to first off all say that I am not trying in any way to assume I know anything about the horrible things you went through, they are simply inexcuseable. But however I will offer my opinion on the matter. I have noticed a very consistent pattern in your story, that you were moving from church to church with the sole purpose of finding relief from your illness. But this is not the reason we should seek God. We should seek God because we are hopelessly lost without Him.
I read the vids' descriptions and appreciate your story and your candour. I'm not sure I agree about "not blaming the victim", because in the case of religion, the victims are usually the victimizers of the next generation. Confrontation or ridicule is often the most effective way to make such a person look at the weaknesses of their belief system, and given the harm they often do to trusting children (who are taught that they are evil by nature and must submit or else face eternal damnation).
themsfightinwoids 1 year ago
good luck on that one. Most people believe in some god and it is i feel to cover up their fear of life. I've been atheist for most of my life 45 years or more and believe me it has been a happy and fullfulling life. I doubt you will ever get people to take a look at their beliefs in a logical fashion. Hell look at the junk that is sold on Tv to heal this or make one feel good and it's crap yet everyone still buys it. Can i tell an astrologist that he believes in crap i don't think so.
richardmoz 1 year ago
There are a lot of people out there in all religions and including world views like atheism, that will teach false doctrines, whether on a spiritual level or a humanist level. Jesus Christ himself said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing and to test the spirit's first. This whole notion of blind Christianity is not Christian like, and if you believe blindly you will be disappointed. U seem to be very intelligent, so let me remind u to not judge an entire group by the actions of a few.
benthemiester 1 year ago
Hey Paul,
Just wanted to wish you a happy new year - I hope to swing through Rhode Island sometime in the first half of 2010.
All the best,
Roy
RoyZimmerman 2 years ago
I agree with you it is quite blasphemous when people say they are speaking God's words and they aren't and I guess when you stuck your finger up at them that might well be what God was thinking too. Piaget says we start off at a level where we believe what we are told and then reject that and form our own beliefs based on experience and honesty and it sounds as if that is what you are bravely doing but as a Christian I hope you arrive back at your own more real understanding of God one day.
AnnaMartin1 2 years ago
I got active about atheism after I suffered a bad Christmas sermon that tried to hook people by tring to fire guilt-trips. I just went to greet people and have nice cultural experience at a village curch. But I got bad demagogy that topped with money begging.
It's true... Christians love and need 'sin' and 'guilt' without it they don't have much to stand on. There are various misfunctions and things can cause real pain that need to be learnt to dealt with but that's all...
Take care
miraenna 2 years ago
He wouldn't have been able to show you therefore he would have been shamed in front of the congregation for teaching a false teaching. The word is not unto someones personal interpretation. What another believer gains from a scripture is the same understanding another should get if they both be full of repentence and thirst for wisdom from the Most High. Christianity has turned more people into athiest than any other religion. What religion was Christ? He had none.
Shawneha 2 years ago
Because if he truly served the Most High and kept his commandments he would not have treated you in that fashion. I would advise that you read the bible for yourself and pray to the most high so that you gain an understanding of this life. The road you are now taking is a broad road that will only lead to misery and destruction. Precept upon Precept, Line upon Line. Instead of flicking him off you should've asked him to show you that in scripture.
Shawneha 2 years ago
Everything you use has a craftman behind it. The human body is a wonderfully created speciman. Who created it though? Evolution doesn't explain nothing. U see Christ came to warn the people who were caught up in religion that you should obey God and not follow the traditions of Men. Traditions of Men is still being taught inside the churches today basically polluting whatever it touches. I believe that is the main reason your pastor acted the way he did.
Shawneha 2 years ago
You are an inspiration,
keep up the good work!
TheStokers 2 years ago 2
You write as if religion is monolithic and universally fundamentalist. As an educated person, you know better than that. Your implied disavowal of the histories of education (Harvard, Princeton, et. al.) and science (Michael Faraday comes to mind) and hospitals (How many atheist hospitals are there?) is beneath you. Your exclusive focus on religionists that you don't like is quite disappointing.
BroKenBerggren 2 years ago
Charities (the Soup kitchens you mentioned) be careful here just because a religious organization hands out a warm meal it is seldom with no strings attached. Often it is served AFTER a service, you dont go to service you dont eat. Other times help is denied because the client may not fit the mold of the church they may be homosexual for example. The Salvation Army is notorious for this. This is nothing to hold up as an example.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago 2
Communication-(the literature and painting and music you mentioned) the church has done more to stop free speech. Think about how they reacted to things that they perceive as being against them. They wanted to band the Golden compass. Tried to keep Piss Christ from traveling around the country, and wanted statues that have been in the nations capitol for years to be cover because they show cleavage.
No the church does not contribute to theses thing rather it retards them.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
My point is that this "new form of KOO-KOO" has been (and remains) the motivation for many of these good things in society. Mine was a very short list! If you eliminate this "new form of KOO-KOO", you would eliminate them, too.
BroKenBerggren 2 years ago
Oh! I BEG to differ. The fact is that religion has done more to hider these things than it has to promote them
Education-(the universities you mentioned) I am an educator by trade. If the religious right had its way we would be teaching loads of misinformation, a skewed view of history, intelligent design, Abstinence only education for example.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Science-(the hospitals you mentioned) Science and religion are like oil and water they dont mix. In fact religion is anti-science. Take a look at the whole evolution creation debate. Most creationist try to debate this topic without even an elementary understanding of what evolution actually is. For example most creationist equate evolution with the beginning of the universe, the 2 are not one in the same.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Religion has worked to stop the progress of science stem cells for example. In addition the spiritual mafia has work to make medical treatments inaccessible (Dr. Tiller) and eliminate the right of individuals to make their own medical decisions (Terri Schiavo). In addition to all this the church also give out boat loads of medical misinformation think of the Pope and what he said about condoms in Africa. This is not new; think about Galileo the church has a history of being anti-science!
educatedAtheist 2 years ago 2
And would you eliminate the universities and hospitals and soup kitchens and literature and painting and music, too?
P.S. I have a response about SOAP, too.
BroKenBerggren 2 years ago
I am not making the connection here. Why would I want to eliminate the universities and hospitals and soup kitchens and literature and painting and music? these things can be ran by secular and religious agents and often make no claim to being the sole keeper on the one universal truth. so whats your point?
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
or if they told you about Pauls thorn in the flesh and Gods answer to him, My grace is sufficient for you. would you have listened to that?
The faith you rejected is twisted, stunted and immature. Have you considered an honest, mature, realistic, educated faith? Just wondering. Thank you for your story. It means a lot to me.
BroKenBerggren 2 years ago
I hear the anger in your writing and do understand and even agree with you point about unhealthy it was to bounce form church to church. Although I don't think it was the victims fault. Keep in mind I TRULY believed this stuff and I was leaving to get what their lack of faith was keeping from me. and yes one of the things that made me leave was the whole thorn in the flesh teaching,
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
What I now know is I don't need to be healed I am fine just the way I am NOT because some imaginary magic man in the sky sprinkles grace dust on me, but because I have my own self made strength and don't need to relay on any one or anything outside of me. To relay of god's grace is just as unhealthy as to relay on Copeland.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
I have heard this argument before the next point in the augment goes something like... you need to be with more moderate believers the people you were with were on the fringe. the truth is that the fringe raises out of the moderate, and it is that moderates that give the fringe a place to hide out. therefore all your asking me to do is exchange my old form of crazy for a new form of KOOK-KOO. Both are wrong, both are dangerous, both need to be eliminated
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
realize that I am approaching the hazard of blaming the victim with this comment, but I wonder if you would consider this possibility. Sometimes women are repeatedly attracted to men who abuse them. Your tale describes your movement deeper and deeper into unhealthy, abusive forms of religion. That is perfectly understandable in your case, but I wonder, if a priest or pastor or Sunday School teacher had counseled you that sometimes God answers our prayers with a No. ...
BroKenBerggren 2 years ago
I want you to know how captivated I am by your story. I am angered by those who took advantage of your understandable desire for healing. So, I am not surprised that when you finally realized what they were doing to you, you flipped them off. But I grieve that you seem to have flipped off all the good along with the bad. ...
BroKenBerggren 2 years ago
As far as I know I am not being shut down. I hope thing get better talk soon
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Hi Jeff, I will try to answer your questions when I can. Right now I am on my mothers computer and mine is in the dumper. I had to restore my operating system and now my network software will not minstall right.
Hi Paul,,,, I really look forward to talking to you again. I hope to get to know you. I found one of my radio shows where I tell my story. I'll send you a link as soon as possible.
I could be moving tommorow. So it might be a long time before I get back online. Take care.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
Hi brother Paul,, sorry to hear youtube is closing your channels.
I still want to share my radio show called ,,,"my story",,, with you. Things are just really crazy and I have not even had time to upload it to my podcast account. I always have more work that I can see the end of. But now I am having family problems also,, and that makes things much worse.
I hope to be in touch with you soon. Thanks for your undertsanding. Damon
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
ok ii has been more than a month and nothing lets face it. You know wont let you just throw out some mytological bull shit I would be demanding some empirical evidence, evidence you can not provide. So you offered NOTHING! This is what I expected would happen put up or shut up
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Emperial evidence???? Paul,, I dont mean to hurt your feelings. BUT you have offer absolutely NO empirical evidence of any kind. All you have done is tell *your story* about how the Christians told you that you must be healed, you was not healed, and therefore it must be your fault. PURE BULLSHIT. Now if the bible taught that all people get healed, if they have enough faith, it would be easy to demonstrate this with the scripture. But it does not.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
So where is the bible verses that says it is always Gods will to heal???
I found my testimony from a radio show I did. It took me weeks to get it uploaded because I found it on a cd-but my cdrom is broke. Since I got it uploaded. I have tried for days to get it to you. But I have been swamped with all sorts of stuff. You can listen ti it or not. I care not. BUT BEFORE you go to ranting again. Prove that the bible claims God always heals all sickness,.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
And prove your just not pissed at God because you did not get healed and hate Christianity because Christians told you that you must be healed. I talked with a guy named Justin Peters yesterday he has CP and praises God for it. I have an illness and praise God for it. What is your problem?
My 2005 testimony is here if you would like to listen. Thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog(DOT)com/2009/06/25/project-86-show-with-damon-whitsell-story/
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
I believe Paul is NOT blaming God. He's blaming the churches for being misled!
BrokenRhythmRecords 2 years ago
HI BRR, I wish that was the case. But since Paul became a proud atheist. I don't see how his story can be interpreted to mean what you said. I blame the churches. There are many people who are crushed by churches. Paul is not the only one to lose faith in God because they went to a church that lied and told them it was Gods will to heal them. And if they did not get healed, then it was their fault. SO MANY,, have said,, there can be no God, because He would have let this happen. SO THEY GIVE UP
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
I really like Paul,,, he would be cool to know.
SO PAUL,,, if I seem hard on you or harsh,,, it is not because I do not like ya. Please know that. I would just like to see you have peace. And peace with God. I have no bad intentions.
I heard your story,, and it hurts me to see another be hurt by religious people and cult like groups,, just to fall into total unbelief.
SORRY BUT IT MAKES ME VERY SAD
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
Hi Paul, Ya know I had an Idea. I was throwing the ball for my dog, getting his exercise. And it occurred to me that you suffer from bad and unbiblical theology. Not just you. But all of us, at one time or another. See I have a mood disorder from brain injury that God has not healed me of. And when I suffered from bad theology. I thought I should be healed and that it was Gods will for me to be healed. And that if I was not healed, it was because something was wrong with me.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
But that was many years ago. So I thought I would challenge you to a little dialogue in email. If you will try to prove that the bible says we are all supposed to always be healed. I think I can show you where your wrong,,, if that is your view of bible theology. I am so thankful that I am not healed. I dont like perfect people,,,, so I am glad I am not one of them. I am just fine in my imperfections. God has blessed me to keep me inflicted.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
well I could go through the motions of proving that but I am not sure how that would be helpful. I mean I dont believe that any more, so why would we do this. I dont believe in little green men but if I needed to I could "prove it" but that would be pointless,
Why dont you prove to me the Bible is the infallible word of god
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
I dont think you can prove it at all. Or I would not have challenged you. If the bible says it is always Gods will to heal,,, you could prove that it says so. I cannot prove that the Bible is the Word of God. I can too my certainty, but not yours. The bible says it is the WoG. But that is not proof,,, so I wont bore you with circular reasoning. But YES,,, I do believe the bible is the WoG. I think there is external evidences for this,,but the biggest evidence is that it nailed me perfectly.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
As I said before I am an ___. No sugar coating at all. That is why I dont think the bible does not come from man. It would wreak of humanism of it did. And I dont buy the old line that man wrote the bible to repress man. People write books for that reason all the time. Yet the bible has always transcended generations. I could say much about this topic.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
But its all subjective. Just like saying the Bible is not the WoG. Its opinion and we will not know for sure untilwe die and it is put to the test. That is why they call it faith.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
Great please do I am open to discussion but I am noting a pattern here your posts say I COULD say this but I WONT . Why wont you? I'm wondering if it is that you wont or CANT? As an apologist shouldnt you "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. " yet you cant or wont. you speak of this hope tell me I should have the same hope but when I press you for a reason I dont get one, It seems that your hope is subjective like the wog.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
It would not matter if you proved me right or wrong! The bible is irrelevant to me so what it says or does not say means nothing. What makes me laugh is that you want me to trust Jesus based on the word of god. Yet you say the wog is subjective. So that makes the lordship of Christ, plan of salvation, virgin birth, second birth and the reality of heaven/hell subjective as well, Why should I accept Jesus based on a subjective book that you wont or cant defend? Isn't that the point of apologistics
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Hi Paul. I just got home and have to get a shower and something to eat. I will try to respond tonight or in the mornining.
I thought about you on the way home tonight and thought about sending you a private video to tell you a little about myself. So I think I will do that. And I will adress your latest questions.
I want to say that I admire your fire and tenacity. You might have CP,,, but you have a strong proverbial backbone.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
It doesn't really matter what the bible says because each religion has a set of beliefs and the faithful will cling to those beliefs regardless. Look how many people belief that Jesus is God. The bible says he is the son of God. How many millions of people think they will go to heaven? Jehovah's Witnesses will tell you the bible says a literal 144,000. On what basis would anyone determine the "TRUE" religion?
JEFFtheATHEIST 2 years ago
I hope you will try just Jesus,,,,, before you give all Christian things the big dump. You story kind of reminds me of me, but kind of opposite. I have never been in a Christian Cult. But I have 5 different cults in my Family. It is painful just to have to deal with them. My favorite quote is,,, I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do.—D. Dale Gulledge
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
So what your asking me to do is join into you delusion because it is a better form of insanity than my old form of the Kook-coos,
You missed a major part of what I had to say. Not only was I mistreated I became more educated. I did not just leave due to personal pain I also left because I out grew the need for mythology. The existence of a god makes no seance,it is illogical
I am now a better person with out trying to please the imaginary daddy in the sky.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Hi Paul,,, Thanks for sharing your story and your feelings and education.
You should educate yourself on true christianity,,, and not judge Jesus by **Christian Cults**,,, not any of his followers for that matter, We are all asses. Just like you.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
Are you calling me an ASS? How CHRISTIAN of you. Oh that's right you are following the one who killed a fig tree just because it had nothing for him to eat. Keep in mind this same Jesus claimed he could turn stone to bread. So why no kill a guys tree, even if the tree was part of his lively-hood yup you act just like christ!
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
I never met a person that was'nt an ass. It is universal. That includes you. AS displayed.
Peace out.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
The more I poke the more you display your true nature. All you can do is get mad and call names. What happened to "be angry and sin not"!
For that matter what happened to apologistics? You have not made one REAL Argument. If we had this conversation in person I am sure you would get louder and louder, this is how it goes with anyone who treats mythology as if it were real. Their reality is challenged, they are shown to be wrong they stomp there feet the higher the volume the lower the logic.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Can you show me the bible verse that says it is a sin to call yourself, every Christian, every other person and you an ass,,, is a sin? For a person with no religion, you sure are militant, sanctimonious and overflowing with reverent piety. ALL I SAID WAS,,,,, Don't judge Jesus or Christianity (as a whole) on the basis of your experience with pseudo-Christian counterfeit cults. Your qualified to talk about RC, Adventism, AOG and WoF.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
But your ignorant of the biblical Jesus Christ and Christianity. BUT you rail on,,, showing your predispositional ASS. So dont be a self righteous snit that has to take the high and holy better than thou road. I called myself and ass. You have my permission to echo that. That is of your self righteous spirit will allow it.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
ok I will admit I can get a bit snappy. I really dont do this to be mean, rather it comes out of a twisted seance of humor. I have re-read the conversation and dont like the tone of it, (not what I want for this channel.)
However you have no idea what by biblical back ground is, Nor are you really understanding my journey. I am assuming you are lumping Adventist into a group of cults thinking Advent Christians are the same as 7th day Adventist. it not. Bring up a topic and let dialog.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Hi Paul. I am not sure I want to dialogue. I dont think apologetics can bend the will. BUT I wanted to share with you that your not the only one to have had a bad go with groups like you have mentioned that you where a part of. My whole family is real religious and cultic. I have Mormons, UPC, WoF, Apostolics, bible missionaries, secular atheist and occultist in my family.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
In spite of most of them telling me I would go to hell for not believing and practicing what they do. I somehow found my truth in Jesus anyway. Maybe its because I cannot say I have not sinned in 30 years,,, like some of them do. So I have no beef with you. I pity you for your religious experience though. I mean,,, it hurts like hell just to have to relate to the cultic people in my own family.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
If had been in your shoes, maybe I would have flipped off the pastor (or bopped his nose), the church and Jesus too. I have walked away from Jesus before, so in a since, I have flipped him off. I wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I do cult exposure work, and your story inspires me to not give up. THEY TRASH SOULS ALL OVER THE PLACE. And their effects must be mitigated as much as possible. So thanks for sharing.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
Hi Paul, Thanks for sharing your story. I have to say WOW. You have had a real bad go with many Christian Cults. I hate to see that you have been soured about all religion by your experiences. I got a cousin who will always be pantheist because his Dad is a Mormon Bishop. I got a friend who is paralyzed because he followed the Word of Faith Movement. I have been a Christian for a long time. But I only found a church I could join about a year ago.
How2BecomeAChristian 2 years ago
Ok, first I will say that I agree that most religions are a deadly disease and need stopping. But I want to ask you what all do you include in your definition of religion? Because atheism can be considered a religion it self, and any other beliefs that person has and lives by. That is why I said most reilgions are a deadly disease, and not all. You have to believe something don't you???
LoveGod7777777 2 years ago
@LoveGod7777777
Atheism is not a religion. Stop it.
Dhorpatan 2 years ago
But I want to ask you what all do you include in your definition of religion? Because atheism can be considered a religion it self, and any other beliefs that person has and lives by.
LoveGod7777777 2 years ago
Key words "can be considered". I didn't say that it was, and I didn't say that it was not.
LoveGod7777777 2 years ago
Honestly, that is plain circular logic. Everything can be interpreted, whether it is a good idea or not. The real defenition for atheism, and the most popular, is the lack of belief in a supernatural deity. Of course, everything is open to interpretation so you can believe what you want, it's your entitlement. Anything else you want to say?
Youanden 2 years ago
Ok, again I did not even give my interpretation of atheism. I said it can be considered a religion just like anything else a person believes or ideas that people follow. Or tell me now what is your interpretation of religion?
LoveGod7777777 2 years ago
I believe Pepsi is better than Coke. Is that a religion? I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put you down but I wanted to show you the flaw in your argument.
A Straw Man Argument is is an fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. It goes like this:
A) The theory of evolution must be taught in science class.
B) No because evolution can't prove how the universe got started.
B is a fallacy because evolution is biology and has nothing to do with Big Bang Theory-cosmology.
quinn2469 2 years ago
Ok so a straw man argument is an fallacy based on misrepesentation of an opponent's position. If that is the case than I can say your Coke and Pepsi example is a Straw Man Argument. Because we believe a lot of things, but again "my" interpretation of religion is not what we believe(I believe Pepsi is better than Coke) but, what we believe in and/or follow and/or live by. Examples, I believe in (myself,God,Devil,Science,money,etc)
LoveGod7777777 2 years ago
More game playing
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Do you mean me? (More game playing) If you do than can you please explain what you mean by that?
LoveGod7777777 2 years ago
Once again this is just a straw man augment. Whats your point?
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Ok I don't know what a straw man augment is. So I don't what you are saying.
LoveGod7777777 2 years ago
your right this is just a straw man
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
No ALL religion is deadly, if fact ANY belief in god is a sign of mental illness an illness that needs treatment. Atheism does not qualify as a religion. It does not have a core set of beliefs, it is not organized. I know this game it is an attempt to proselytize the next line goes something like "It takes more faith not to believe in god then it does to believe in god" this is just foolish.
who says I have to believe in something other then myself? I don't
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
I would've slapped that pastor. That was down right wrong of him to say that, Sinful seed?
Elodee123 2 years ago
I can understand why you would want to slap him his actions were unacceptable. But would you slap me for having CP? I HOPE NOT. He is ill a belief in god in an illness. He and all religious folks need treatment NOT abuse,
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Thanks Jeff it is good to have your support keep in touch my friend
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
You are right I should not have sought out god for healing . I am fine the way I am. I didn't think I needed healing until the church convinced me I did. Nor do I need a god to make me whole in any other way. I'm whole. The church is master of convincing people they need things that they really dont and claiming to be the sole answer to that need, (healing, forgiveness of sin, or the sense of helplessness that you allude to.) These needs are made up, the hook used to get people under control.
educatedAtheist 2 years ago
Wonderful answer!
JEFFtheATHEIST 2 years ago
Well I want to first off all say that I am not trying in any way to assume I know anything about the horrible things you went through, they are simply inexcuseable. But however I will offer my opinion on the matter. I have noticed a very consistent pattern in your story, that you were moving from church to church with the sole purpose of finding relief from your illness. But this is not the reason we should seek God. We should seek God because we are hopelessly lost without Him.
delbert0504 2 years ago