@sAmZy1993 Yes, ears, throat, eyes. etc are the targets. We're not hitting hard for real for obvious reasons. Also, punching to the skull with a closed fist just breaks your hand which is why open hand strikes were taught to U.S. soldiers in World War II for fighting the Japanese in the jungles of the Pacific. Knuckle punches are for soft targets like the kidneys and liver. Open hand strikes snake into the eyes and throat better.
@mattkovsky m'kay, makes sense. but personally im an advocate of the vertical fist or 45 degree angled fist with bottom threee knuckle landing, it feels quite good for me.
I teach filipino martial arts and your right we learn do open hand striked primarily unless we are attacking soft parts. Also we leave our hands open so we can continue a strike without pulling it back in order to flow it in to strikes, parries etc.. There is no retraction for strikes just continuous motion (which is imposible with a closed fist to the same degree as open). But I train kyokushin as well and those guys will crack you full force close fist and not get hurt at all :|
@Butchzzilla Uses similar principles applied in a totally free-form, non-ccoperative manner. We have many tai chi students. See our website attackproof[DOT}com and do a search for "combat tai chi".
Put me on record, if you've mastered the principles of Guided Chaos, pure grappling is literally the easiest style of figting to deal with. Lets just say it takes two;). I've seen all the grappling vs. (insert MA) videos and none of them had even the slightest clue how to deal with grappling. Grapplers usually learn GC faster than most due to their comfort in being in close proximity though. I'm not exaggerating, I'm not hiding and I'm not lying. Come and try it out. Simple.
I am interested by the Attack Proof system and feel that it could repel a grappler's attack (watch the first UFC superfight between Shamrock and Gracie if you feel a great grappler can't be repelled if the counter attacker has some skill), BUT!!!!!! that grappler was terrible. As Bruce Lee pointed out, we should look for new information and I am looking forward to going through all the drills in the "Attack Proof" book in the near future.
OldScuff, your assumptions are incorrect. We've trained, as well as trained with more people than you realize. If you're dueling and/or lack looseness and balance you are always susceptible to takedowns. Again, these vids only brush over the surface.
Of course I know that in reality no one can execute a take-down in absolutely instantly, but it seems that way when you are on the receiving end against a high level guy. The video is titled "Grappling vs. Guided Chaos" but what you have is guide chaos against stumbling street-fighter level take-down attempts. No penetration step, no changing of levels, no commitment to contact. Just some grasping for the upper body of an opponent who at time is squared and vulnerable for a real skilled shot.
You've clearly never dealt with high level grapplers with high level takedown skills. We've had guy who wrestled under Gable and other top level guys. You're going to the ground in zero point zero seconds. Better know how to deal with it.
OldScuff1 and Baterine1, in a real fight no one has time to do a perfect single or double leg takedown. It practically never happens in MMA even from world class wrestlers. They distract with punches and then basically do a double leg football tackle. In these vids even though it says all strikes are pulled, you're still only getting a very, small view of this system. Takedowns are easy to deal with unless you're trapped in a dueling mindset.
@UniversalStandards few people have the ability to execute a single or double leg against a skilled fighter, but by no means does it always devolve into a "double leg football tackle". Watch St. Pierre's fights, his takedowns are executed with great technique, and that's on world class fighters. What may appear to break down into unskilled action is modifying what is necessary moment to moment to accomplish what the fighter is after.
@pandnh4 I didn't literally mean football tackle. However, they are usually unable to generate enough momentum to get a good takedown without sacrificing their balance by putting their head in front of their knees, at least to some extent. Occasionally you'll see a sound takedown but it rarely happens. All that said, and I can't stress this enough, takedowns are easy to deal with and trust me, you aren't getting even a fraction of the picture in this video.
I am not even a trained grappler and can tell you if you had a real BJJ, JJ or even may fighter in there he would shoot for that leg. This hand slap stuff is ok, problem is guided chaos is still chaos and chaos can not stand much against skill and focus. This is like soldiers deciding to just shoot random around a target and expect for the bullets to hit eventual.
I've trained and taught martial arts for about 35 years. Former students run 2 successful MMA teams and I have also taught street self-defense, special classes for police officers, and I have worked as bar security (bouncer). The failure of the techniques in the video start with the incredibly poor technique by the "grappler". A good shot and takedown will leave absolutely zero time for a strike or "poke & gouge" counter. Eye attacks have their place. This is not a good example.
From a movement and timing perspective, this is perfect! Only thing is, I wouldn't let the grappler bend my upper back that far back, like he did toward the end. That breaks the structure. Keeping the chin and chest slightly tucked increases leverage and balance, thus your eye gouge or whatever technique you choose to use will be twice as effective!
@JGSH13 Not successfully if it's not the main part of the training. Not just getting eye gouges in against a resisting opponent but also eye gouge defenses. None of this is compatible with sport-based and rules-based grappling. It completely changes the strategy. Think about it.
@mattkovsky there are no eye gouge defenses apart from wearing swim goggles,you just be aware of his hands near your face and his mouth as well for bites.If a high standard grappler whose used to full contact striking clinches with any street dude,it wont be pretty for the lad,taking down untrained people is easy and once on the floor you dont have to sub,you can just hit him.The attacker wouldhave no chance to gouge.Sport grappling is the base for all effective methods,just add dirty tactics.
@billysue2 The fact that you say" there are no eye gouge defenses apart from wearing swim goggles" indicates you know of none and therefore have never trained any. We do, every do. The main reason the military teaches sport grappling is to attract more recruits. That's a fact, whether you like it or not.
@mattkovsky my first exposure to grappling 15 yrs ago involved simulated eye gouges and bites as wed no interest in sport.We later found that a sport grappler destroyed us and gouging would be as available to them as us.The reason the marines use combatatives(they dont use sport grappling) is because its tried and tested and full contact methods build fighting spirit.Its the reason they dont use the bunch of crap in your vids,ive yet to see anyone think differently
@billysue2 We have contact with high level officers within the armed forces who know the truth about why sport grappling is part of current training (not as in the past). It's to increase recruitment. What you say is false and is part of the spin told to the public. Believe what you will, we don't care. If you do, read this for some truth: attackproof[DOT]com/the-myth-of-grappling-as-self-defense[DOT]html
I have to say, some people's comments on this page really don't make sense to me obviously training in mma or anything is going to help you in a street fight, that is undeniable, but it's still ridiculous to say that the ability to eye gouge isn't going to change the flow or direction of a fight, I mean of course there are so many IFs, it's a REAL fight, but nonetheless isn't having a more advanced arsenal more useful? overall it's only about the people but the method still is important I think
@Kirin9 - One thing you need to know about these "weekday warriors" that train in MMA today is they do collectively, Instead of learning one art at a time. They all know how to FIGHT. But they don't know lick shit about self defense. There's a difference between the two..
@mild7p, you have absolutely no idea what you're looking at, who you're talking to or what you're talking about.
We understand the difference between an alive method of training and dead methodologies that think all you have to do is go for an eye gouge or a bite. That said, the founder was a forensic homicide detective and we've trained enough "experienced" grapplers and martial artists of practically every other background to know the difference.
This stuff looks great, just like all other videos with cooperative training partners.
It has some use against ppl who don't know how to grapple. Not so good against trained grapplers or even against a big aggressive person who wants to take you down.
Also, in a real fight there is the issue of adrenaline, drug use (PEP) etc. Believe me, your eye gouging, clawing and biting won't stop them. Most women do this stuff instinctively, but they still end up getting battered and raped.
@mild7p - "Most women do this stuff instinctively, but they still end up getting battered and raped. " And grappling techniques do better?.. Look, Adrenaline or whatever, I know for sure any man any size who gets kicked in the nuts is going down, or hit in the throat, or their knees kicked in. All this is just as cooperative as rolling around with a training partner(grappling).
@MexicansAreNotTrash - I seen someone try a double leg takedown on a dude, and tried to wrestle with him, then his buddies came over and tapped danced on his head...
See what I did there!? I can say stuff like that on youtube as well.. XD
They do have a point about grappling, you cant graple with someone who can knee your balls and gouge your eyes, and manipulate small joints, grab your hair, grab and twist your skin and byte you, etc.
Personally I prefere Systema, it has been used for far longer and the striking is the best in the world. This I consider useful for people who only want to survive some attack on the street, esecially women, but for a real fighter, well, you might need something else..
Padlockum, in case you haven't noticed our message has remained completely unaltered. We have extensive experience with grapplers and you've posted here enough to know our take on the matter. I've watched your vids and you're on the same program as grapplers I've personally worked with. I'll respectfully repeat myself. When you are ready to get a workout and exchange notes let us know.
alkighost, we aren't trying either, on this or any other vid in here. The non grappler is moving at about 20% capacity. Don't believe me, well get your hands on the Kill the Enemy vid and you'll see. If we move near full capacity it would be just as foolish as two heavyweight boxers sparring full contact/full spd with no padding. Theses are just demos.
H3, yes they are grappling moves. If the movements are useful to our goals we plug them into our delivery system.
yeah, seems like relaxation of the body like in tai chi is incorporated instead of the regualr martial arts that want you to harden your body during punches and kicks. Using relaxation of the body to absord your opponents force and use it against he/she.
What Guided Chaos calls "ghosting" or being "unavailable yet unavoidable" has a similar description as the term "cold power" in the combat tai chi books. John Perkins trained with tai chi master Waysun Liao as a precursor to Guided Chaos.
If you register on our Training Groups Page on attackproofDOTcom, you will find a bunch of guys in Florida training Guided Chaos (none of them are instructors, however, except for one).
@mattkovsky hey matt, I live in Plano, Texas and I'm really glad that other people are catching on to this kind of thing too, do you guys have a training group in the Dallas area?
@Kirin9 Go to the Training Groups page on the website and register and then you can see. We hope to do a seminar in TX late this year when one of our guys gets back from Afghanistan.
Trained in mma and classic ma for 15 years hadn't done anything for the last 5 so got a few of the guided chaos vids. Had the recent opportunity to 'roll' with a competitive mma fighter (blue belt in BJJ) he kicked my arse when we played by the mma rules. Asked if he minded if I tried a few things I recently learned from the vids. His brain froze as it quickly realised it was ill equipped to handle what was happening. Very effective and I hardly even know what I'm doing with it.
BJJ is an art that works really well in ideal conditions. Those 2 conditions are having ample time and also someone who is willing to grapple back by either tightening and providing structure or attempting to muscle/control the grappler in some manner. It's almost a natural instinct but training in GC for a long period rewires your nervous system to prevent this. Just make sure you get to a school to get hands on so that we can make sure you are on the correct path in your training.
@mattkovsky i dont believe he talking about a "sportive context" when bjj first came about, its practitioners put them selves on the line in real street fights and against other arts and came out on top.
How on Earth are you going to pull of a double eye gouge when your opponent has double underhooks, and can simply change levels to avoid your fingers, scoop your legs, and dump you on your head? Unless, of course, the grappler you're using as a demonstrator has absolutely no idea how to clinch.
What makes you think that a person can't change levels with their hands to follow someone's head? Also, the only way you can effectively clinch someone with underhooks is if they aren't willing to hospitalize you. EVEN if he did get the slam, so what? Just don't fall down and pull guard, pull your legs up to avoid attachment to your body. You people struggle with this stuff because it REALLY is as simple as we say. Come into a school with a neutral attitude and feel it for yourself.
@dougdoug2006 Your right! Just because someone is grabbing a guy doesn't make it grappling anymore than owning a plane makes you a pilot. Though neck cranks do work on inexperienced folks.
Exactly! There is no "art" for the art's sake. Only principles of motion and deep perception of human anatomy that we can unleash combatively without any thought process.
Fantastic stuff, only wish you guys were in the Bay Area of Ca. I have studied for years, and the only truth I have come up with is that most of them do not work. People get locked into a so called system and train themselves to think that they are fighting that way. If you watch fighting . matches I don't care what style the fighters are from, people fight almost all the same, you do not recognize any movement from their so called perspective style. Again love your stuff .
Note that in most of the cases shown here it still ends in grappling or dodging, a "double eye gouge with thumbs" is hardly a distance move, and in the end most violent incounters will end up on the ground where you can't just dodge at that point you better know what to do. ;)
Not exactly sure where you're going but what you said has "some" validity. The only type of grappling we do is ripping/tearing and crushing at high speed against soft targets or head leveraging/torquing. As for ending on the ground, YES..the difference is that someone properly trained will be standing up look down at you while you're on the ground.
Thanks Ari. I'm asking these questions because i'm thinking about coming into your classes when I have enough money for a plane ticket. Guided chaos seems like the most realistic self defence/fighting art I've ever come across.
Ari and universal standards, how do you train people to function under severe adrenaline stress? What drills do you do invoke some kind of flight or fight response in the students?
Check the July, 2009 issue of Black Belt magazine. I wrote an article about training for spontaneity. Some of those drills can get scary because of the uncertainty involved--especially because, in class, you know while your eyes are closed that any second you may be jumped HARD by truly big, strong, fast guys who don't necessarily have the control that the instructors have (we're talking pro-level football and MMA players). Add in uncertain footing, strobing lights, heavy swinging dummies. . . .
Intellectually, you know you're probably not going to die or anything. You can't fully simulate life-or-death fear. However, the body certainly responds to the uncertainty, impending impact, and the environment created by the instructors (yelling various commands and comments, etc.). And honestly, some of my "normal" training sessions with the master instructors have been scarier than some real situations I've had. They know how to take things right to the edge of the student's capacity.
It's not that difficult to find the head of an oncoming grapple especially when there is contact made prior to going for the legs.If you can get the head you can do slot of damage very quickly.
Regardless of the actual value of the self defense system, you just can't expect hard-training, experienced, motivated people with prior combat skills to be inspired by this kind of promotional video. I understand you can't just go medievil on someone in training and film it if the techniques are dangerous, but this sort of thing can only attract the easily duped. Saying "you'll know when you show up" is not enough. Surely you can do better, even if you are just full of bologne.
The only way you'll ever know is if you yourself are moving in a free from manner against us because there's a ton of action going on that you can't even see on the vids. Practitioners from practically all forms of grappling have trained with us and we have no reason whatsoever to change our methods. As an aside, this vid was shot close to 5 yrs ago and you still had guys in NHB who would go straight in for the body clinch so they could grapple. Of course this extreme weakness was exposed.
Fair reply. I enjoy combat sports but realise that proficiency in them does not culminate in a comprehensive self defense system, and although I (and my friends) have never been in a situation where one would need to resort to some of your techniques (i'd sooner buy an asshole a drink or give up my wallet than go that far. Situational awareness/body language go a long way), it would interest me to see some more convincing videos if safely possible. You must agree these are a bit lame. Post more?
I wont get into the debate about the effectiveness of guided chaos. I'll just say that it has an utterly silly, wanna-sound-cool name, and that those "full power and speed" grapplers were far from powerful, speedy, or competent. No decent sambo, bjj, greco, shoot, or college wrestler would be so deterred by hand slaps, dancing, and double thumb attacks.
Does guided chaos training take into account the effects of the fight or flight response [adrenaline dump] on the human body. In other words, do you try to train people to function under adrenaline. dump?
Yes. In fact, I've gotten more severe adrenaline dump symptoms a few times in class during some "scary" drills (lots of unknown and potentially dangerous factors) than in a few real violent events. Good question.
The man who "created" GC was a forensic HOMICIDE investigator who studied blood spatter patterns at murder scenes and before that he was a first responder to crimes in progress in yonkers during the worst crime era in nyc history. What we do is for something different than anything described by padlockum. However GC works very well in less lethal conditions evidenced by the success our bouncers and cops have had using it as needed.
Even though I don't agree with a LOT of what you're saying, I will admit that I definitely understand where you're coming from. Usually, a person is telling us that our methods don't work when we know we've worked with literal experts in their very systems. In your case, you're simply simply speaking your case for why Ju Jitsu DOES have some validity for street defense. We can't get mad at you about that, we just don't think it's the ideal answer.
I don' either...The UFC although it doesn't completely represent a street fight (Especially with all the rules added now) It showed that Jiu-jitsu worked in one on one situations against guys who didn't have grappling experience. But once people added jiu-jitsu to their repertoire and added wrestling for sprawls it became apparent that jiu-jitsu isn't the dominate martial arts needed to win fights..but a cornerstone in a combination of of styles that should be learned.
I think what you're saying is everyone needs to address sensitivity in the clinch range which is true. Standing, we essentially do the same thing as BJJ, using yielding and dropping instead of controlling and submitting. Because GC directly addresses primary principles of fighting, Sensitivity, Balance, Body Unity and Looseness, it's easy to adapt to changing situations so we don't have to learn multiple styles, although we advocate experimenting w/people of other arts as much as possible.
I've said before I TOTALLY thing some of what I thought would work in those situations. But saying that it is effective doesn't negate Jiu-jitsu. You don't have to just pass to score a touch down...you can run the ball too. Different methods of gettin the same job done. Both work better against different defenses. Thats Why I think you should train in more than one style. Jiu-jitsu for the ground, Wrestling and Judo for controlling where the fight goes, and some striking. GC seems good to add 2.
Cross training is a necessity for NHB. In self defense it's not, specifically if the person you're going against is bigger, faster and/or stronger. Also, those methods would run counter to many of the principles I train in GC. Mainly the grappling of wrestling, the throwing of Judo and the entanglement of Ju Jitsu on the ground. However, if that's the path you choose then I say good business. I admit that even for some self defense situations learning/understanding grappling does has value.
Lol. There are videos of Royce out there in challenge matches against guys who had exactly this mindset of biting and testicle grabbing. All failed to stop him from gaining position, and Royce was in a far better position at all times to use "dirty" attacks himself.
We've seen ALL of the videos. And you are correct, the idea of dirty attacks themselves will get you demolished as it did the poor fighters that went against the grapplers.. The important thing is to have a balanced and mobile root, pliability, body unity and sensitivity which you can use to deliver strike, dirty attacks or whatever. NONE of the people in those vids anything even remotely resembling any of these things.
"We've seen ALL of the videos. And you are correct, the idea of dirty attacks themselves will get you demolished as it did the poor fighters that went against the grapplers."
So then basically your saying Jiu-jitsu DOES work...except against people who train in Guided Chaos, obviously?
It works really well in one on one controlled situations against other unarmed martial artistis who give grapplers all of the structure they need to make locks work. Sportfight? If someone struggles enough, it will take much longer than 15 seconds however. A white belt is pretty much playing the same game so it's far easier to get them than someone who is actually intending to hurt you, whether they are successful or not. When grapplers train with us, as I've said it's a non applicable dynamic.
1. When I say "White Belt" I mean everybody who's new to jiu-jitsu..or NOT IN jiu-jitsu. This includes any guy off the street you get in a fight with.
2. You automatically make these "Opponents" in these scenarios super bad asses. Truth be told, most fights you get into are with drunken idiots outside a bar or some high crack head wanting to steal your money. You don't typically fight people who are trained to fight....
Basic jiu-jitsu from a blue belt or higher will work 8 out of 10 times (if not more) on some average guy with no fight training in a one on one situation...and it will work quickly (especially if the guy is around your size)
3.MOST fights ARE one on one. Typically when people go out..they go out in groups and if you are getting jumped while your friends are there...you have shitty friends.
1.They don't struggle though. Especially a guy coming into a Ju Jitsu school from off the street. The struggle will prolong the encounter tremendously. When I say struggle, I'm talking about moving in a way as if their life depended on it.
2. I don't disagree. Just better hope they don't have a weapon and/or aren't athletic. Most of the time a drunk or crackhead begging for change isn't serious. There are people w/o training that can do as much damage as someone without, depends on intent.
1. Who doesn't struggle? Thats all white belts do..we call them spazzes because all they do is freak out and shake around and try to choke you with silly things that don't work...like head locks.
2. Athetic's only carry you so far..and most guys get exhausted because they use all there energy and they use muscles they aren't used to using...besides...I'm athletic as well and so are alot of jiu-jitsu guys.
1. Yeah, but were they actually serious from the very beginning about doing something like attacking your thyroid cartilage or testicles from the very beginning and not as a bailout? I doubt it. I didn't say the struggle would create them a victory, I said it would prolong the conflict which in many cases make Ju Jitsu impractical in street defense situations. Not all cases, just many.
2. Of course it will only take you so far, but someone who can move will make things more difficult.
Come on...lets be honest...the guy in the video does not represent grappling...at least not very good grappling. He just ran at the guy with his arms out. I've never learned those techniques. On top of that...you have a "black belt" instructor level representative of your art..let an equal black belt of Jiu-jitsu represent us...My school has plenty if you want to prove your style is more effective.
All arguments aside...this guy was not a grappler...or at least not a good one. If your a "black belt" in your style...then try this on a black belt in jiu-jitsu. There are plenty at my school if you want to prove this style works.
The standup and groundfighting of this system is far superior to BJJ when it comes to self defense. As for competitive domination, it is far wiser to stick with BJJ. As for them coming to the school to train...whatever, feel free. Many have tried before and they quickly realize the difference in intention. And to be more clear. NO, all things being equal, properly applied Ju Jitsu WILL NOT work against Guided Chaos. This video does not fully capture the essence of this art in even the slightest.
well this video sure as hell doesn't capture the essence of Jiu-jitsu either. If THAT guys a grappler, I'm a candy wrapper. Its silly to say BJJ is only for competition....lol competition came after the fighting. Jiu-jitsu has been effective in the streets for a long time...I've used it plenty of times. You saying jiu-jitsu guys come in there and get dominated all the time is ridiculous...who? Tell me some one of caliber.
I don't recall saying anything about them getting dominated. It simply doesn't apply because it's a completely different dynamic. Read as: THEY CAN'T USE IT. And on that note, since you don't believe what I say and you claim to have used it plenty of times you're invited to come in and feel it for yourself. Simple.
Of course not, what you see are simply drills. However, I have no issue taking a steel toe boot to the side of your head on the ground if I'm in position to do so. Also, we avoid the ground if possible. So that being the case, to use BJJ you have to get me on the ground in a position where you can use it. 2 things..I ain't letting you take me down...if you do, it will be on my terms. That being the case, from my vantage point BJJ is useless as I have no intention of competing.
1. We don't take down the people who "LET US". We train to take down people who are trained to "not get taken down".
2. You don't got to "compete" to get mounted and punched in the face, eye gouged, kimura'd or choked unconscious.
3. The "Dirty tricks" you guys use aren't yours exclusively...we can all use them...if you escalate a simple fight to biting and eye gouging..then both sides will be joining that party I assure you.
I would love to come to see..are you any where in Texas? Honestly...with an open mind. I'm not opposed to learning something new and adding to my additional training.
Not in Texas, I'm in Chicago and I've worked with my fair share of mixed martial artists. The main schools are all in New York. Therefore, get a plane ticket and fly in one weekend. In response to your rebuttal, you're missing my point.
1. Again, reread my response, both of them.
2. Of course not, but to do BJJ in a street situation you need a lot of time and ideal conditions.
3. Never claimed them to be, it's about the delivery system which will make sense when felt instead of watching.
1. I have read it and quite frankly...its nonsensical gibberish. I need further explaining. As far as take downs go...we are two humans. I train to take people down who are trained NOT to be taken down. You are apparently trained to not be taken down. I guarantee you wont win every time.
2. You don't need alot of time for BJJ to work ESPECIALLY against untrained opponents. Most white belts get tapped out within the first 15 seconds of rolling if not faster. Ideal conditions?
You're telling me that grappling is ideal for the street in a self-defense situation? Grappling is made obsolete by someone who attacks in unconventional ways to soft targets. And just forget it against more than a single attacker. Believe me you've never experienced anything close to someone who does this well otherwise you'd be singing another tune.
lol forget almost anything but a gun against multiple attackers. Grappling IS ideal for street situations...so Is boxing..so is wrestling..so is kick boxing. Just because you know jiu-jitsu doesn't mean your confined to only jiu-jitsu moves lol. You think a wrestler can't punch some one in a fight because they don't teach that in college wrestling? lol If your fighting multiple attackers of course you don't start using spider guard or x guard lol....
We have guys that would surely survive against multiples and thats because they can hit with power using any weapon at any angle from in close or while moving. Boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, jiujitsu are all sportive which means they have limits in what is taught to the nervous system. The point is if you're a wrestler and the best thing to do is punch, why are you spending time wrestling? Better to learn to disengage, move and hit on the move with power if you want self defense.
You spend time wrestling to put yourself in a dominate position so that your punches are more effective than his...same thing with BJJ. Its taking the fight to your home...Its a Shark grabbing you off your boat and into the water.
See the problem is that first you have to grab the guy, by the legs or collar leverage him to the ground and establish position before any strikes can be effective from that logic...If you mean by domante position he can't hit you and you can unleash on him we take care of that on our feet, which is more efficent when fighting on the street or battlefield. You just wouldnt get a hold of one of us before you were severely injured first. The intention is different than in sport.
The only posts that are censored are those that contain obscenities and posts that are obviously written by children. With your censored posts, you've so far satisfied half of those criteria. If a person has intelligent criticism regardless of how negative it is, it gets posted. By your using the "bogus" and "running scared" bravado that most children on the web use you may be satisfying the second, maybe not. we'll see.
grapplers leave there self open too much...... even in mma!!! fights last between 10 sec to 30.. plus grapplers dont when street fights when numbers r around. grappler loves to go to ground an, ground could mean death.
UniversalStandards, being from the streets dont mean jack shit. Just cause you fought some bum who cant fight dont mean you can handle a grappler. The stuff in this clip will not work against a trained grappler.(If you dont believe me go to a BJJ or MMA gym and try it)The people who talk shit about MMA wouldnt last 20 seconds in a real fight against a trained fighter. Real fights last 10 seconds? I dont know where that number came from but plenty of footage proves otherwise.
We wouldn't do exactly what you see in that clip. As I've said, we don't even go backwards. As an aside, do you realize that the arguments you bring up are things we've dealt with years ago and that we only entertain a lot of these objections as a courtesy? In addition, I'm willing to bet that I know more about MMA than you.
Going to? I and my fellow students have done it against very experienced high school wrestlers, competitive MMA fighters and grapplers, and a variety of experienced fighters and "tough guys." You're 19 years old. I thought I knew everything about the world when I was 19 as well (including that the martial art I was then involved in was "the best"--and actually, even then I had stopped attempted takedowns by high school wrestlers, albeit not as reliably--nothing is magic).
Why bother with any of this? Why shun techniques which are easier and superior?
Defend double-legs with the sprawl. Then you can knee the guy in the face all you like, gouge, kick him in the groin, anything. And it's a proven, high percentage technique.
What you can NOT do is what is shown in another of these videos, and that is to escape from an inferior position using "dirty" moves. Not going to happen. Escape to at least a neutral position, THEN go for gouges, etc.
Man, you start to get hooked on pulling the piss out of these guys. Truely, it's addictive, and they just don't stopp. It is becoming a hobby of mine too. Go hard son...
Real MMA fighters are unlikely to attack me on the street. BJJ groundfighting is great if your taken down, or slip, but the main goal in a street attack is to stay on your feet and, get out of harms way.
What don't you agree with? Do you want to stay and fight, or get out of there?
Or, do you think that MMA fighters are going around attacking people on the street?
If your opponent, and just one, doesn't have a weapon and, they get on top of you, BJJ offers sweeps and, other techniques to get him off. You get up and, get out.
The only disagreement is with the use of grappling techniques if you fall because it further entangles you with the enemy. Kick, bite, gouge, rip, strike and escape. Not mount, guard, grab, sweep, wrestle, lock and strike and escape. That is a sportive approach. Every second you're connected to the enemy exposes you to more danger. BTW, how do you know if there's only one attacker or if there's a weapon? You don't. Then why bother BJJ grappling in the first place?
First of all, upkicks form the ground are allowed in all organizations, and some MMA organizations allow kicks and stomps on the ground as well. Biting will not incapacitate an opponent, and most people won't just let you gouge their eyes. On your feet, your enemy always stands a punchers chance, if you are a knowledgeable grappler, connection to your enemy reduces the chance of danger.
It's not JUST about illegal moves. It's about training for adaptability, balance, looseness, body unity, subconscious sensitivity and freedom of action, so that your movement can always be ahead of the other guy in the moment, which allows you to apply whatever methods are needed--including "illegal moves."
lol what do you think we are doing in BJJ? Training for predictability, uncoordinated postures, stiffness, body confusion, and only conscious moves? Get real doOd...we train for Full contact unpredictable fighting, we exploit weaknesses like the tendency for the untrained to not pay attention to their body weight...using leverage against you. Your not the only one "TRAINING"...don't be so pompous.
Why do you guys get so offended by a video of some grappling being thwarted? There are plenty of videos of the reverse wher karate guy gets mounted or kung fu etc...This video is offered to show that a strraight takedown attempt can be thwarted by simply not playing the game...pretty simple really.
Because you label a video "Grappling vs Guided Chaos" and then have this guy run at him with his arms out like hes a zombie. There was no grappling. Its as if we said "Grappling vs Boxer" and had a guy throwing horrible, looping punches from a horrible stance. Boxers would be like WTF? Now if you had a guy that went for a legitimate double under hook or a single leg take down with proper technique and you stuffed it...you wouldn't get flack.
Believe it or not, I made the same arguments as you. The only thing is that it wouldn't have mattered if he went for a single or double leg takedown, it still wouldn't have worked. The only way you can make that stuff work is if you somehow cause a person to overcommit or bite on a fake which are things that are prevented by attacking the attacker and using dropping energy. In a sportfight, when you stand at a distance and try to "outbox" someone you leave yourself open to this sort of thing.
4. You keep calling it "Sport fight" but the truth is MOST americans you fight with WILL stick to punching and wrestling during a fight. Especially when its just some escalated argument. Not everyone has it in them to bite a mans face or rip someones testicles off.
5. We are talking about Jiu-jitsu as a self defense...what average guy knows how to use "Dropping energy" to stop a take down? Jiu-jitsu works wonderfully against your average person.
4. Mostly they aren't serious about hurting you and its really only sport. I nor any other black belt in this system make it a requirement to bite a man's face or rip his testicles off to survive a conflict. They're options in an ANYTHING GOES situation.
5. Many MAs work against the avg person in avg conditions. If there is a more efficient way to control a conflict, why not go with that method? That method for me is Guided Chaos. If JJ works for you, I don't see why you care what we say.
I don't care what you say unless you say Jiu-jitsu is completely ineffective as a self defense..I care because that is false. It may not be perfect for self defense on its own but it is certainly competent. I also have a problem with you saying your style can render Jiu-jitsu ineffective based on one video showing a crappy jiu-jitsu guy with bad technique gettin man handled. You show some good technique gettin demolished and I wouldn't be offended.
When did "I" say we could render Ju Jitsu ineffectve based on one video? Just because this is all "you" see doesn't make it the end all of this system. Until a person feels the system, there will be doubts no matter what we put on video.
You CAN use it for self defense and IT HAS BEEN used for self defense. Why are you being so obtuse? I HAVE used it in 4 street fights alone, and twice in prison. I have seen at least 5 videos of it being used on Youtube...and heard of Countless others...Why do you keep refuting against facts?
Keep the prison thing to yourself bro. No need to sound tough because I honest to God don't give a damn. However, if YOU know it works then that's really all that counts. And you're right, people have been mounting and punching people since "forever". I'm willing to bet cavemen did it as a way of settling disputes and showing dominance. However, that's NOT what we are talking about. Sneak into a school or a seminar and train with us and you'll get a different perspective.
First of all going to prison doen'st make you tuff...homosexuals go to prison, perverts and "tuff guys's" . Going there wasn't something I'm proud of or anything to brag about...it means I got caught being stupid. I was merely referencing it from times I've used jiu-jitsu.
It's understandable as long as you realize it's not a good thing. I had a guy tell me that he used to smash people in jail and he saw me doing Anywhere Strikes and refused to work out with me. The reason he gave me was because for him all fights are to the death. :-(
Yes i agree eye gougeing etc can be effective but they require skill like any other..well skill(lol)specifically accuracy, to get your thumbs in a fast moving grapplers eyes is not that easy as he goes for the take down remember if this truelly is a street fight the grappler will most likely be useing foul tactics tactics too were possible. I think both sides have a good deal to offer the MA and self defence community.
Reasons most can't make vital attacks work is the lack of guiding combative principles and the use of vital attacks defensively instead of offensively. Its easy to do if your pliability, balance, body unity and sensitivity are properly trained.
He moves his eyes move to another target. If clinched, break w/dropping fright reactions. If taken down, pull legs toward chest without leaving a gap to prevent more entanglement. I'm being simplistic as "hands on" is the only way to get the point.
Ok, My opinion. I have grappled, wrestled and taken part in numerous MA's, just to quantify my "Credentials". All the discussions here seem to be assuming a perfect scenario and are not really discussing slip trip and fall. If a commited grappler gets a good takedown it HURTS and causes DAMAGE!!!!the grappler in this vid does not SEEM commited or well trained. However having used, and yes trained foul tactics those can also be very effective
why do you think wrestling and jiu jitsu exist in cagefighting WITH WITH eyegouging and groinshots????? there are many videos that show this! as Bas rutten said just becuase you eye gouge me or you groin shot me doesn't mean im just going to let go. i will just get more irritated and HURT YOU EVEN MORE. NEVER NEVER piss off the guy with an adventageous position. yes i agree you should not take the fight to the ground in the streets, but if its just you and him and he knows f.EX muay thai?
Going after vital targets from an inferior position won't save you from grappling. However, it's easier to avoid those positions if you are willing to damage the attacker before he gets there. It's almost impossible to grapple without severely exposing yourself unless you've completely off balanced the attacker. If he wants to grapple, we aren't talking groin shots. We're talking about detaching his gonads from his body. We re talking about crushing his throat.
I don't care what Bas Rutten says, if he is eye gouged or hit in the groin it hurts,maybe he ignores the pain but the damage to his body will still happen.even if he wins its a hollow victory,damage to the groin is serious people and not being able to see will be a hindrance.He's not superman you know.Aside from this I still think Bas Rutten's a great fighter,but not everyone is Bas Rutten.
I don't really know much about Rutten, but he's sadly mistaken if he thinks he's going to keep coming after a well executed eye gouge( meaning: all the way through the membrane behind the eye leading to the brain). This is a killing move, not something that's just going to piss him off.
Eye gouges were allowed in early UFC and vale tudo fights. Eye gouges work , period, but people tend to defend their eyes instinctively. It's like a punch to the chin, you'd likely KO an opponent without fail but that target doesn't come cheap. If it did every boxing match would last less than three minutes.
You're right. It's not easy to gouge someone at all unless their training completely ignores the possibility that it could happen. In our case, eye gouges represent but a tiny fraction of what he have available in our arsenal. I don't like referencing examples outside of GC simply because based on my experience 99% simply do not have the pliability to make any lethal moves work in touching range the way we do. They get tight and basically lock themselves out from these possibilities.
hahahaha, Try to apply that on the streets, Guys give me a break. All martial art are good, but this one, i really cant call it a martial art. // Sifu
With all due respect, I can't take your opinion serious. I would like to but unless I'm wrong I don't believe there's a great deal of violence in Sweden, specifically to the point that it qualifies you to speak about "the streets".
What kind of "grappler" was that? Looked like a guy with about a month of high school wrestling at best.
MrMZaccone 4 months ago
Looks like Erle Montaigue dim mak vs. grapplers.
lebarosky 4 months ago
um sorry but i dont see the point of all the bitchslapping to the head. hit the ears at least.
sAmZy1993 4 months ago
@sAmZy1993 Yes, ears, throat, eyes. etc are the targets. We're not hitting hard for real for obvious reasons. Also, punching to the skull with a closed fist just breaks your hand which is why open hand strikes were taught to U.S. soldiers in World War II for fighting the Japanese in the jungles of the Pacific. Knuckle punches are for soft targets like the kidneys and liver. Open hand strikes snake into the eyes and throat better.
mattkovsky 4 months ago
@mattkovsky m'kay, makes sense. but personally im an advocate of the vertical fist or 45 degree angled fist with bottom threee knuckle landing, it feels quite good for me.
sAmZy1993 4 months ago
@mattkovsky
I teach filipino martial arts and your right we learn do open hand striked primarily unless we are attacking soft parts. Also we leave our hands open so we can continue a strike without pulling it back in order to flow it in to strikes, parries etc.. There is no retraction for strikes just continuous motion (which is imposible with a closed fist to the same degree as open). But I train kyokushin as well and those guys will crack you full force close fist and not get hurt at all :|
Ilanactingreel 3 months ago
@Ilanactingreel Thanks, good points. I did kali, silat and kyokushin before doing this and there are some useful similarities.
mattkovsky 3 months ago
This looks like tai chi chuan.
Butchzzilla 5 months ago
@Butchzzilla Uses similar principles applied in a totally free-form, non-ccoperative manner. We have many tai chi students. See our website attackproof[DOT}com and do a search for "combat tai chi".
mattkovsky 5 months ago
Put me on record, if you've mastered the principles of Guided Chaos, pure grappling is literally the easiest style of figting to deal with. Lets just say it takes two;). I've seen all the grappling vs. (insert MA) videos and none of them had even the slightest clue how to deal with grappling. Grapplers usually learn GC faster than most due to their comfort in being in close proximity though. I'm not exaggerating, I'm not hiding and I'm not lying. Come and try it out. Simple.
UniversalStandards 6 months ago
then he got tapped out lol
sharkfinnigan 7 months ago
Keith Hackney kept Royce Gracie at bay using that type of foot and handwork at UFC4.
gbolton54 9 months ago
@gbolton54 Yeah that's why he won huh?
GJJman40000 6 months ago
Karate Nerds.
brianspost75 9 months ago
I am interested by the Attack Proof system and feel that it could repel a grappler's attack (watch the first UFC superfight between Shamrock and Gracie if you feel a great grappler can't be repelled if the counter attacker has some skill), BUT!!!!!! that grappler was terrible. As Bruce Lee pointed out, we should look for new information and I am looking forward to going through all the drills in the "Attack Proof" book in the near future.
bae313 1 year ago
OldScuff, your assumptions are incorrect. We've trained, as well as trained with more people than you realize. If you're dueling and/or lack looseness and balance you are always susceptible to takedowns. Again, these vids only brush over the surface.
UniversalStandards 1 year ago
Of course I know that in reality no one can execute a take-down in absolutely instantly, but it seems that way when you are on the receiving end against a high level guy. The video is titled "Grappling vs. Guided Chaos" but what you have is guide chaos against stumbling street-fighter level take-down attempts. No penetration step, no changing of levels, no commitment to contact. Just some grasping for the upper body of an opponent who at time is squared and vulnerable for a real skilled shot.
OldScuff1 1 year ago
You've clearly never dealt with high level grapplers with high level takedown skills. We've had guy who wrestled under Gable and other top level guys. You're going to the ground in zero point zero seconds. Better know how to deal with it.
OldScuff1 1 year ago
OldScuff1 and Baterine1, in a real fight no one has time to do a perfect single or double leg takedown. It practically never happens in MMA even from world class wrestlers. They distract with punches and then basically do a double leg football tackle. In these vids even though it says all strikes are pulled, you're still only getting a very, small view of this system. Takedowns are easy to deal with unless you're trapped in a dueling mindset.
UniversalStandards 1 year ago
@UniversalStandards few people have the ability to execute a single or double leg against a skilled fighter, but by no means does it always devolve into a "double leg football tackle". Watch St. Pierre's fights, his takedowns are executed with great technique, and that's on world class fighters. What may appear to break down into unskilled action is modifying what is necessary moment to moment to accomplish what the fighter is after.
pandnh4 7 months ago
@pandnh4 I didn't literally mean football tackle. However, they are usually unable to generate enough momentum to get a good takedown without sacrificing their balance by putting their head in front of their knees, at least to some extent. Occasionally you'll see a sound takedown but it rarely happens. All that said, and I can't stress this enough, takedowns are easy to deal with and trust me, you aren't getting even a fraction of the picture in this video.
UniversalStandards 6 months ago
I am not even a trained grappler and can tell you if you had a real BJJ, JJ or even may fighter in there he would shoot for that leg. This hand slap stuff is ok, problem is guided chaos is still chaos and chaos can not stand much against skill and focus. This is like soldiers deciding to just shoot random around a target and expect for the bullets to hit eventual.
Baterine 1 year ago
I've trained and taught martial arts for about 35 years. Former students run 2 successful MMA teams and I have also taught street self-defense, special classes for police officers, and I have worked as bar security (bouncer). The failure of the techniques in the video start with the incredibly poor technique by the "grappler". A good shot and takedown will leave absolutely zero time for a strike or "poke & gouge" counter. Eye attacks have their place. This is not a good example.
OldScuff1 1 year ago
angry nerd fighting style.
RabidxPanda 1 year ago
From a movement and timing perspective, this is perfect! Only thing is, I wouldn't let the grappler bend my upper back that far back, like he did toward the end. That breaks the structure. Keeping the chin and chest slightly tucked increases leverage and balance, thus your eye gouge or whatever technique you choose to use will be twice as effective!
piaten 1 year ago
just remember the grappler can eye gauge too...
JGSH13 1 year ago 3
@JGSH13 Not successfully if it's not the main part of the training. Not just getting eye gouges in against a resisting opponent but also eye gouge defenses. None of this is compatible with sport-based and rules-based grappling. It completely changes the strategy. Think about it.
mattkovsky 1 year ago
@mattkovsky there are no eye gouge defenses apart from wearing swim goggles,you just be aware of his hands near your face and his mouth as well for bites.If a high standard grappler whose used to full contact striking clinches with any street dude,it wont be pretty for the lad,taking down untrained people is easy and once on the floor you dont have to sub,you can just hit him.The attacker wouldhave no chance to gouge.Sport grappling is the base for all effective methods,just add dirty tactics.
billysue2 1 year ago
@billysue2 The fact that you say" there are no eye gouge defenses apart from wearing swim goggles" indicates you know of none and therefore have never trained any. We do, every do. The main reason the military teaches sport grappling is to attract more recruits. That's a fact, whether you like it or not.
mattkovsky 1 year ago
@mattkovsky my first exposure to grappling 15 yrs ago involved simulated eye gouges and bites as wed no interest in sport.We later found that a sport grappler destroyed us and gouging would be as available to them as us.The reason the marines use combatatives(they dont use sport grappling) is because its tried and tested and full contact methods build fighting spirit.Its the reason they dont use the bunch of crap in your vids,ive yet to see anyone think differently
billysue2 1 year ago
@billysue2 We have contact with high level officers within the armed forces who know the truth about why sport grappling is part of current training (not as in the past). It's to increase recruitment. What you say is false and is part of the spin told to the public. Believe what you will, we don't care. If you do, read this for some truth: attackproof[DOT]com/the-myth-of-grappling-as-self-defense[DOT]html
mattkovsky 1 year ago
@JGSH13 Yes but they don't practice getting them in and defending against them as often as they do their submission training.
mattkovsky 1 year ago
I have to say, some people's comments on this page really don't make sense to me obviously training in mma or anything is going to help you in a street fight, that is undeniable, but it's still ridiculous to say that the ability to eye gouge isn't going to change the flow or direction of a fight, I mean of course there are so many IFs, it's a REAL fight, but nonetheless isn't having a more advanced arsenal more useful? overall it's only about the people but the method still is important I think
Kirin9 1 year ago
@Kirin9 - One thing you need to know about these "weekday warriors" that train in MMA today is they do collectively, Instead of learning one art at a time. They all know how to FIGHT. But they don't know lick shit about self defense. There's a difference between the two..
xchargerOUx 1 year ago
@mild7p, you have absolutely no idea what you're looking at, who you're talking to or what you're talking about.
We understand the difference between an alive method of training and dead methodologies that think all you have to do is go for an eye gouge or a bite. That said, the founder was a forensic homicide detective and we've trained enough "experienced" grapplers and martial artists of practically every other background to know the difference.
UniversalStandards 1 year ago
This stuff looks great, just like all other videos with cooperative training partners.
It has some use against ppl who don't know how to grapple. Not so good against trained grapplers or even against a big aggressive person who wants to take you down.
Also, in a real fight there is the issue of adrenaline, drug use (PEP) etc. Believe me, your eye gouging, clawing and biting won't stop them. Most women do this stuff instinctively, but they still end up getting battered and raped.
mild7p 1 year ago
@mild7p - "Most women do this stuff instinctively, but they still end up getting battered and raped. " And grappling techniques do better?.. Look, Adrenaline or whatever, I know for sure any man any size who gets kicked in the nuts is going down, or hit in the throat, or their knees kicked in. All this is just as cooperative as rolling around with a training partner(grappling).
xchargerOUx 1 year ago
I seen someone try to eye gouge another guy in an ACTUAL street fight, then they got choked on the ground. He was thinking too much.
MexicansAreNotTrash 1 year ago 2
@MexicansAreNotTrash - I seen someone try a double leg takedown on a dude, and tried to wrestle with him, then his buddies came over and tapped danced on his head...
See what I did there!? I can say stuff like that on youtube as well.. XD
xchargerOUx 1 year ago
@xchargerOUx it was the wrong strategy for that situation then.Thing is he woul have still been beaten by 3 guys anyway
billysue2 1 year ago
They do have a point about grappling, you cant graple with someone who can knee your balls and gouge your eyes, and manipulate small joints, grab your hair, grab and twist your skin and byte you, etc.
Personally I prefere Systema, it has been used for far longer and the striking is the best in the world. This I consider useful for people who only want to survive some attack on the street, esecially women, but for a real fighter, well, you might need something else..
INDUSTRIAL3X 1 year ago
Keith Hackney used a similar tactic to stymie Royce Gracie,but he couldn't capitulize on any oportunity and lost that match,I beleive it was UFC 4.
gbolton54 1 year ago
A MMA guy trains to fight a MMA guy not a Person that trains in something like this.
BadaBing11 2 years ago
Padlockum, in case you haven't noticed our message has remained completely unaltered. We have extensive experience with grapplers and you've posted here enough to know our take on the matter. I've watched your vids and you're on the same program as grapplers I've personally worked with. I'll respectfully repeat myself. When you are ready to get a workout and exchange notes let us know.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
alkighost, we aren't trying either, on this or any other vid in here. The non grappler is moving at about 20% capacity. Don't believe me, well get your hands on the Kill the Enemy vid and you'll see. If we move near full capacity it would be just as foolish as two heavyweight boxers sparring full contact/full spd with no padding. Theses are just demos.
H3, yes they are grappling moves. If the movements are useful to our goals we plug them into our delivery system.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
That grappler isnt even trying. Plus hes not striking first before entry.
aikighost 2 years ago 2
Ihave a question.Isn't neckbreaking and eyegouging a grapplin technique?You can't see them in competition because they are banned ofcourse.
H3ll533k3r 2 years ago
yeah, seems like relaxation of the body like in tai chi is incorporated instead of the regualr martial arts that want you to harden your body during punches and kicks. Using relaxation of the body to absord your opponents force and use it against he/she.
salitre3 2 years ago
i see principals of tai chi within this program. Is this true>?
salitre3 2 years ago
What Guided Chaos calls "ghosting" or being "unavailable yet unavoidable" has a similar description as the term "cold power" in the combat tai chi books. John Perkins trained with tai chi master Waysun Liao as a precursor to Guided Chaos.
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
Good ideas, but bad applications.
nomamao 2 years ago
Please elaborate, because our applications happen to be a strength! We deliver our close combat spontaneously and ferociously. Who else can say that?
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
Every one who trains in MMA
RebelWrestler45 2 years ago
i really would love to train with you guys. but i live in florida. How much do you think it would be to get there by plane.
jsull24 2 years ago
If you register on our Training Groups Page on attackproofDOTcom, you will find a bunch of guys in Florida training Guided Chaos (none of them are instructors, however, except for one).
mattkovsky 2 years ago
@mattkovsky hey matt, I live in Plano, Texas and I'm really glad that other people are catching on to this kind of thing too, do you guys have a training group in the Dallas area?
Kirin9 1 year ago
@Kirin9 Go to the Training Groups page on the website and register and then you can see. We hope to do a seminar in TX late this year when one of our guys gets back from Afghanistan.
mattkovsky 1 year ago
Trained in mma and classic ma for 15 years hadn't done anything for the last 5 so got a few of the guided chaos vids. Had the recent opportunity to 'roll' with a competitive mma fighter (blue belt in BJJ) he kicked my arse when we played by the mma rules. Asked if he minded if I tried a few things I recently learned from the vids. His brain froze as it quickly realised it was ill equipped to handle what was happening. Very effective and I hardly even know what I'm doing with it.
wolverqueen 2 years ago
BJJ is an art that works really well in ideal conditions. Those 2 conditions are having ample time and also someone who is willing to grapple back by either tightening and providing structure or attempting to muscle/control the grappler in some manner. It's almost a natural instinct but training in GC for a long period rewires your nervous system to prevent this. Just make sure you get to a school to get hands on so that we can make sure you are on the correct path in your training.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
So basically grappling works against everyone but guided chaos practitioners who have "rewired their nervous systems".
Good thing you guys haven't gone global yet :)
PadLockum 2 years ago
You're talking about a sportive context and so you're comparing apples and oranges. And actually we have gone global.
mattkovsky 2 years ago
@mattkovsky i dont believe he talking about a "sportive context" when bjj first came about, its practitioners put them selves on the line in real street fights and against other arts and came out on top.
JGSH13 1 year ago
How on Earth are you going to pull of a double eye gouge when your opponent has double underhooks, and can simply change levels to avoid your fingers, scoop your legs, and dump you on your head? Unless, of course, the grappler you're using as a demonstrator has absolutely no idea how to clinch.
dougdoug2006 2 years ago 22
What makes you think that a person can't change levels with their hands to follow someone's head? Also, the only way you can effectively clinch someone with underhooks is if they aren't willing to hospitalize you. EVEN if he did get the slam, so what? Just don't fall down and pull guard, pull your legs up to avoid attachment to your body. You people struggle with this stuff because it REALLY is as simple as we say. Come into a school with a neutral attitude and feel it for yourself.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
@dougdoug2006
Queue "real men of genious" record.
Finally someone who sees that this demonstration is ridiculous. Guided Chaos only works if you're fighting a drunk or an autistic, one armed man.
See what I did, from your fake extreme to another. That's how ridiculous this demo was.
asquadjoey 6 months ago
@dougdoug2006 Your right! Just because someone is grabbing a guy doesn't make it grappling anymore than owning a plane makes you a pilot. Though neck cranks do work on inexperienced folks.
johnnyd911 6 months ago
@dougdoug2006
If you start to take big hunks of his flesh out with your teeth, he will change the position of his head - you could eye gouge him then.
markjrich1 5 months ago
Exactly! There is no "art" for the art's sake. Only principles of motion and deep perception of human anatomy that we can unleash combatively without any thought process.
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
Fantastic stuff, only wish you guys were in the Bay Area of Ca. I have studied for years, and the only truth I have come up with is that most of them do not work. People get locked into a so called system and train themselves to think that they are fighting that way. If you watch fighting . matches I don't care what style the fighters are from, people fight almost all the same, you do not recognize any movement from their so called perspective style. Again love your stuff .
xxdummyfreshful 2 years ago
Note that in most of the cases shown here it still ends in grappling or dodging, a "double eye gouge with thumbs" is hardly a distance move, and in the end most violent incounters will end up on the ground where you can't just dodge at that point you better know what to do. ;)
callihn 2 years ago
Not exactly sure where you're going but what you said has "some" validity. The only type of grappling we do is ripping/tearing and crushing at high speed against soft targets or head leveraging/torquing. As for ending on the ground, YES..the difference is that someone properly trained will be standing up look down at you while you're on the ground.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Thanks Ari. I'm asking these questions because i'm thinking about coming into your classes when I have enough money for a plane ticket. Guided chaos seems like the most realistic self defence/fighting art I've ever come across.
Billy13024 2 years ago
Much respect Billy13024. Training firsthand is the absolute most intelligent move you can make.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Ari and universal standards, how do you train people to function under severe adrenaline stress? What drills do you do invoke some kind of flight or fight response in the students?
Billy13024 2 years ago
Check the July, 2009 issue of Black Belt magazine. I wrote an article about training for spontaneity. Some of those drills can get scary because of the uncertainty involved--especially because, in class, you know while your eyes are closed that any second you may be jumped HARD by truly big, strong, fast guys who don't necessarily have the control that the instructors have (we're talking pro-level football and MMA players). Add in uncertain footing, strobing lights, heavy swinging dummies. . . .
arikandel2002 2 years ago
Intellectually, you know you're probably not going to die or anything. You can't fully simulate life-or-death fear. However, the body certainly responds to the uncertainty, impending impact, and the environment created by the instructors (yelling various commands and comments, etc.). And honestly, some of my "normal" training sessions with the master instructors have been scarier than some real situations I've had. They know how to take things right to the edge of the student's capacity.
arikandel2002 2 years ago
It's not that difficult to find the head of an oncoming grapple especially when there is contact made prior to going for the legs.If you can get the head you can do slot of damage very quickly.
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
Regardless of the actual value of the self defense system, you just can't expect hard-training, experienced, motivated people with prior combat skills to be inspired by this kind of promotional video. I understand you can't just go medievil on someone in training and film it if the techniques are dangerous, but this sort of thing can only attract the easily duped. Saying "you'll know when you show up" is not enough. Surely you can do better, even if you are just full of bologne.
MrAccidental 2 years ago 11
The only way you'll ever know is if you yourself are moving in a free from manner against us because there's a ton of action going on that you can't even see on the vids. Practitioners from practically all forms of grappling have trained with us and we have no reason whatsoever to change our methods. As an aside, this vid was shot close to 5 yrs ago and you still had guys in NHB who would go straight in for the body clinch so they could grapple. Of course this extreme weakness was exposed.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Fair reply. I enjoy combat sports but realise that proficiency in them does not culminate in a comprehensive self defense system, and although I (and my friends) have never been in a situation where one would need to resort to some of your techniques (i'd sooner buy an asshole a drink or give up my wallet than go that far. Situational awareness/body language go a long way), it would interest me to see some more convincing videos if safely possible. You must agree these are a bit lame. Post more?
MrAccidental 2 years ago 2
I wont get into the debate about the effectiveness of guided chaos. I'll just say that it has an utterly silly, wanna-sound-cool name, and that those "full power and speed" grapplers were far from powerful, speedy, or competent. No decent sambo, bjj, greco, shoot, or college wrestler would be so deterred by hand slaps, dancing, and double thumb attacks.
MrAccidental 2 years ago
lol double thumb attacks....Your eyes shouldn't be able to be reached by two thumbs if your doing got double underhooks properly lol
PadLockum 2 years ago
Does guided chaos training take into account the effects of the fight or flight response [adrenaline dump] on the human body. In other words, do you try to train people to function under adrenaline. dump?
Billy13024 2 years ago
Yes. In fact, I've gotten more severe adrenaline dump symptoms a few times in class during some "scary" drills (lots of unknown and potentially dangerous factors) than in a few real violent events. Good question.
arikandel2002 2 years ago
guided chaos is the real deal
Billy13024 2 years ago
The man who "created" GC was a forensic HOMICIDE investigator who studied blood spatter patterns at murder scenes and before that he was a first responder to crimes in progress in yonkers during the worst crime era in nyc history. What we do is for something different than anything described by padlockum. However GC works very well in less lethal conditions evidenced by the success our bouncers and cops have had using it as needed.
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
"What we do is for something different than anything described by padlockum"
And what works or doesn't work in jiu-jitsu is completely different than whats described by anyone here as well
PadLockum 2 years ago
Even though I don't agree with a LOT of what you're saying, I will admit that I definitely understand where you're coming from. Usually, a person is telling us that our methods don't work when we know we've worked with literal experts in their very systems. In your case, you're simply simply speaking your case for why Ju Jitsu DOES have some validity for street defense. We can't get mad at you about that, we just don't think it's the ideal answer.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
I don' either...The UFC although it doesn't completely represent a street fight (Especially with all the rules added now) It showed that Jiu-jitsu worked in one on one situations against guys who didn't have grappling experience. But once people added jiu-jitsu to their repertoire and added wrestling for sprawls it became apparent that jiu-jitsu isn't the dominate martial arts needed to win fights..but a cornerstone in a combination of of styles that should be learned.
PadLockum 2 years ago
I think what you're saying is everyone needs to address sensitivity in the clinch range which is true. Standing, we essentially do the same thing as BJJ, using yielding and dropping instead of controlling and submitting. Because GC directly addresses primary principles of fighting, Sensitivity, Balance, Body Unity and Looseness, it's easy to adapt to changing situations so we don't have to learn multiple styles, although we advocate experimenting w/people of other arts as much as possible.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
I've said before I TOTALLY thing some of what I thought would work in those situations. But saying that it is effective doesn't negate Jiu-jitsu. You don't have to just pass to score a touch down...you can run the ball too. Different methods of gettin the same job done. Both work better against different defenses. Thats Why I think you should train in more than one style. Jiu-jitsu for the ground, Wrestling and Judo for controlling where the fight goes, and some striking. GC seems good to add 2.
PadLockum 2 years ago
Cross training is a necessity for NHB. In self defense it's not, specifically if the person you're going against is bigger, faster and/or stronger. Also, those methods would run counter to many of the principles I train in GC. Mainly the grappling of wrestling, the throwing of Judo and the entanglement of Ju Jitsu on the ground. However, if that's the path you choose then I say good business. I admit that even for some self defense situations learning/understanding grappling does has value.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Lol. There are videos of Royce out there in challenge matches against guys who had exactly this mindset of biting and testicle grabbing. All failed to stop him from gaining position, and Royce was in a far better position at all times to use "dirty" attacks himself.
chiconspiricy 2 years ago
We've seen ALL of the videos. And you are correct, the idea of dirty attacks themselves will get you demolished as it did the poor fighters that went against the grapplers.. The important thing is to have a balanced and mobile root, pliability, body unity and sensitivity which you can use to deliver strike, dirty attacks or whatever. NONE of the people in those vids anything even remotely resembling any of these things.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
BTW..excuse my grammar, I was in a rush.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
"We've seen ALL of the videos. And you are correct, the idea of dirty attacks themselves will get you demolished as it did the poor fighters that went against the grapplers."
So then basically your saying Jiu-jitsu DOES work...except against people who train in Guided Chaos, obviously?
PadLockum 2 years ago
It works really well in one on one controlled situations against other unarmed martial artistis who give grapplers all of the structure they need to make locks work. Sportfight? If someone struggles enough, it will take much longer than 15 seconds however. A white belt is pretty much playing the same game so it's far easier to get them than someone who is actually intending to hurt you, whether they are successful or not. When grapplers train with us, as I've said it's a non applicable dynamic.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
1. When I say "White Belt" I mean everybody who's new to jiu-jitsu..or NOT IN jiu-jitsu. This includes any guy off the street you get in a fight with.
2. You automatically make these "Opponents" in these scenarios super bad asses. Truth be told, most fights you get into are with drunken idiots outside a bar or some high crack head wanting to steal your money. You don't typically fight people who are trained to fight....
PadLockum 2 years ago
3. Can only be taken on a case by case or person by person basis.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
....(continued)
Basic jiu-jitsu from a blue belt or higher will work 8 out of 10 times (if not more) on some average guy with no fight training in a one on one situation...and it will work quickly (especially if the guy is around your size)
3.MOST fights ARE one on one. Typically when people go out..they go out in groups and if you are getting jumped while your friends are there...you have shitty friends.
PadLockum 2 years ago
1.They don't struggle though. Especially a guy coming into a Ju Jitsu school from off the street. The struggle will prolong the encounter tremendously. When I say struggle, I'm talking about moving in a way as if their life depended on it.
2. I don't disagree. Just better hope they don't have a weapon and/or aren't athletic. Most of the time a drunk or crackhead begging for change isn't serious. There are people w/o training that can do as much damage as someone without, depends on intent.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
1. Who doesn't struggle? Thats all white belts do..we call them spazzes because all they do is freak out and shake around and try to choke you with silly things that don't work...like head locks.
2. Athetic's only carry you so far..and most guys get exhausted because they use all there energy and they use muscles they aren't used to using...besides...I'm athletic as well and so are alot of jiu-jitsu guys.
PadLockum 2 years ago
1. Yeah, but were they actually serious from the very beginning about doing something like attacking your thyroid cartilage or testicles from the very beginning and not as a bailout? I doubt it. I didn't say the struggle would create them a victory, I said it would prolong the conflict which in many cases make Ju Jitsu impractical in street defense situations. Not all cases, just many.
2. Of course it will only take you so far, but someone who can move will make things more difficult.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Come on...lets be honest...the guy in the video does not represent grappling...at least not very good grappling. He just ran at the guy with his arms out. I've never learned those techniques. On top of that...you have a "black belt" instructor level representative of your art..let an equal black belt of Jiu-jitsu represent us...My school has plenty if you want to prove your style is more effective.
PadLockum 2 years ago
All arguments aside...this guy was not a grappler...or at least not a good one. If your a "black belt" in your style...then try this on a black belt in jiu-jitsu. There are plenty at my school if you want to prove this style works.
PadLockum 2 years ago
The standup and groundfighting of this system is far superior to BJJ when it comes to self defense. As for competitive domination, it is far wiser to stick with BJJ. As for them coming to the school to train...whatever, feel free. Many have tried before and they quickly realize the difference in intention. And to be more clear. NO, all things being equal, properly applied Ju Jitsu WILL NOT work against Guided Chaos. This video does not fully capture the essence of this art in even the slightest.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
well this video sure as hell doesn't capture the essence of Jiu-jitsu either. If THAT guys a grappler, I'm a candy wrapper. Its silly to say BJJ is only for competition....lol competition came after the fighting. Jiu-jitsu has been effective in the streets for a long time...I've used it plenty of times. You saying jiu-jitsu guys come in there and get dominated all the time is ridiculous...who? Tell me some one of caliber.
PadLockum 2 years ago
I don't recall saying anything about them getting dominated. It simply doesn't apply because it's a completely different dynamic. Read as: THEY CAN'T USE IT. And on that note, since you don't believe what I say and you claim to have used it plenty of times you're invited to come in and feel it for yourself. Simple.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
..but you sure as hell don't start flopping on the floor kicking your feet in all directions either.
PadLockum 2 years ago
Of course not, what you see are simply drills. However, I have no issue taking a steel toe boot to the side of your head on the ground if I'm in position to do so. Also, we avoid the ground if possible. So that being the case, to use BJJ you have to get me on the ground in a position where you can use it. 2 things..I ain't letting you take me down...if you do, it will be on my terms. That being the case, from my vantage point BJJ is useless as I have no intention of competing.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
1. We don't take down the people who "LET US". We train to take down people who are trained to "not get taken down".
2. You don't got to "compete" to get mounted and punched in the face, eye gouged, kimura'd or choked unconscious.
3. The "Dirty tricks" you guys use aren't yours exclusively...we can all use them...if you escalate a simple fight to biting and eye gouging..then both sides will be joining that party I assure you.
PadLockum 2 years ago
I would love to come to see..are you any where in Texas? Honestly...with an open mind. I'm not opposed to learning something new and adding to my additional training.
PadLockum 2 years ago
Not in Texas, I'm in Chicago and I've worked with my fair share of mixed martial artists. The main schools are all in New York. Therefore, get a plane ticket and fly in one weekend. In response to your rebuttal, you're missing my point.
1. Again, reread my response, both of them.
2. Of course not, but to do BJJ in a street situation you need a lot of time and ideal conditions.
3. Never claimed them to be, it's about the delivery system which will make sense when felt instead of watching.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
1. I have read it and quite frankly...its nonsensical gibberish. I need further explaining. As far as take downs go...we are two humans. I train to take people down who are trained NOT to be taken down. You are apparently trained to not be taken down. I guarantee you wont win every time.
2. You don't need alot of time for BJJ to work ESPECIALLY against untrained opponents. Most white belts get tapped out within the first 15 seconds of rolling if not faster. Ideal conditions?
PadLockum 2 years ago
You're telling me that grappling is ideal for the street in a self-defense situation? Grappling is made obsolete by someone who attacks in unconventional ways to soft targets. And just forget it against more than a single attacker. Believe me you've never experienced anything close to someone who does this well otherwise you'd be singing another tune.
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
lol forget almost anything but a gun against multiple attackers. Grappling IS ideal for street situations...so Is boxing..so is wrestling..so is kick boxing. Just because you know jiu-jitsu doesn't mean your confined to only jiu-jitsu moves lol. You think a wrestler can't punch some one in a fight because they don't teach that in college wrestling? lol If your fighting multiple attackers of course you don't start using spider guard or x guard lol....
PadLockum 2 years ago 2
We have guys that would surely survive against multiples and thats because they can hit with power using any weapon at any angle from in close or while moving. Boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, jiujitsu are all sportive which means they have limits in what is taught to the nervous system. The point is if you're a wrestler and the best thing to do is punch, why are you spending time wrestling? Better to learn to disengage, move and hit on the move with power if you want self defense.
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
You spend time wrestling to put yourself in a dominate position so that your punches are more effective than his...same thing with BJJ. Its taking the fight to your home...Its a Shark grabbing you off your boat and into the water.
PadLockum 2 years ago
See the problem is that first you have to grab the guy, by the legs or collar leverage him to the ground and establish position before any strikes can be effective from that logic...If you mean by domante position he can't hit you and you can unleash on him we take care of that on our feet, which is more efficent when fighting on the street or battlefield. You just wouldnt get a hold of one of us before you were severely injured first. The intention is different than in sport.
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
so you guys are monitoring the site so you can censor potential criticism? bogus, but i can see why you are running a little scared
flancka 2 years ago
The only posts that are censored are those that contain obscenities and posts that are obviously written by children. With your censored posts, you've so far satisfied half of those criteria. If a person has intelligent criticism regardless of how negative it is, it gets posted. By your using the "bogus" and "running scared" bravado that most children on the web use you may be satisfying the second, maybe not. we'll see.
mattkovsky 2 years ago
grapplers leave there self open too much...... even in mma!!! fights last between 10 sec to 30.. plus grapplers dont when street fights when numbers r around. grappler loves to go to ground an, ground could mean death.
biggida 3 years ago
UniversalStandards, being from the streets dont mean jack shit. Just cause you fought some bum who cant fight dont mean you can handle a grappler. The stuff in this clip will not work against a trained grappler.(If you dont believe me go to a BJJ or MMA gym and try it)The people who talk shit about MMA wouldnt last 20 seconds in a real fight against a trained fighter. Real fights last 10 seconds? I dont know where that number came from but plenty of footage proves otherwise.
mmaguy2008 3 years ago
We wouldn't do exactly what you see in that clip. As I've said, we don't even go backwards. As an aside, do you realize that the arguments you bring up are things we've dealt with years ago and that we only entertain a lot of these objections as a courtesy? In addition, I'm willing to bet that I know more about MMA than you.
UniversalStandards 3 years ago
There is no way you're going to defend a take down from a high school wrestler with this technique, much less someone who is experienced.
RebelWrestler45 2 years ago
Going to? I and my fellow students have done it against very experienced high school wrestlers, competitive MMA fighters and grapplers, and a variety of experienced fighters and "tough guys." You're 19 years old. I thought I knew everything about the world when I was 19 as well (including that the martial art I was then involved in was "the best"--and actually, even then I had stopped attempted takedowns by high school wrestlers, albeit not as reliably--nothing is magic).
arikandel2002 2 years ago
Why bother with any of this? Why shun techniques which are easier and superior?
Defend double-legs with the sprawl. Then you can knee the guy in the face all you like, gouge, kick him in the groin, anything. And it's a proven, high percentage technique.
What you can NOT do is what is shown in another of these videos, and that is to escape from an inferior position using "dirty" moves. Not going to happen. Escape to at least a neutral position, THEN go for gouges, etc.
ilikeaeroplanejelly 2 years ago
If only you knew.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Man, you start to get hooked on pulling the piss out of these guys. Truely, it's addictive, and they just don't stopp. It is becoming a hobby of mine too. Go hard son...
titochuck 3 years ago
Yeah, but there's one big problem......This time the jokes on you, you're simply too ignorant to realize it.
UniversalStandards 3 years ago
Real MMA fighters are unlikely to attack me on the street. BJJ groundfighting is great if your taken down, or slip, but the main goal in a street attack is to stay on your feet and, get out of harms way.
MrPotatoesLatkie 3 years ago 2
Even tho I don't agree, how can you argue with someone called MrPotatoesLatkie? I just love that name...
mattkovsky 3 years ago
What don't you agree with? Do you want to stay and fight, or get out of there?
Or, do you think that MMA fighters are going around attacking people on the street?
If your opponent, and just one, doesn't have a weapon and, they get on top of you, BJJ offers sweeps and, other techniques to get him off. You get up and, get out.
MrPotatoesLatkie 3 years ago
The only disagreement is with the use of grappling techniques if you fall because it further entangles you with the enemy. Kick, bite, gouge, rip, strike and escape. Not mount, guard, grab, sweep, wrestle, lock and strike and escape. That is a sportive approach. Every second you're connected to the enemy exposes you to more danger. BTW, how do you know if there's only one attacker or if there's a weapon? You don't. Then why bother BJJ grappling in the first place?
mattkovsky 3 years ago
First of all, upkicks form the ground are allowed in all organizations, and some MMA organizations allow kicks and stomps on the ground as well. Biting will not incapacitate an opponent, and most people won't just let you gouge their eyes. On your feet, your enemy always stands a punchers chance, if you are a knowledgeable grappler, connection to your enemy reduces the chance of danger.
RebelWrestler45 2 years ago
It's not JUST about illegal moves. It's about training for adaptability, balance, looseness, body unity, subconscious sensitivity and freedom of action, so that your movement can always be ahead of the other guy in the moment, which allows you to apply whatever methods are needed--including "illegal moves."
arikandel2002 2 years ago
lol what do you think we are doing in BJJ? Training for predictability, uncoordinated postures, stiffness, body confusion, and only conscious moves? Get real doOd...we train for Full contact unpredictable fighting, we exploit weaknesses like the tendency for the untrained to not pay attention to their body weight...using leverage against you. Your not the only one "TRAINING"...don't be so pompous.
PadLockum 2 years ago
Why do you guys get so offended by a video of some grappling being thwarted? There are plenty of videos of the reverse wher karate guy gets mounted or kung fu etc...This video is offered to show that a strraight takedown attempt can be thwarted by simply not playing the game...pretty simple really.
skywalkr2000 2 years ago
Because you label a video "Grappling vs Guided Chaos" and then have this guy run at him with his arms out like hes a zombie. There was no grappling. Its as if we said "Grappling vs Boxer" and had a guy throwing horrible, looping punches from a horrible stance. Boxers would be like WTF? Now if you had a guy that went for a legitimate double under hook or a single leg take down with proper technique and you stuffed it...you wouldn't get flack.
PadLockum 2 years ago
Believe it or not, I made the same arguments as you. The only thing is that it wouldn't have mattered if he went for a single or double leg takedown, it still wouldn't have worked. The only way you can make that stuff work is if you somehow cause a person to overcommit or bite on a fake which are things that are prevented by attacking the attacker and using dropping energy. In a sportfight, when you stand at a distance and try to "outbox" someone you leave yourself open to this sort of thing.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
4. You keep calling it "Sport fight" but the truth is MOST americans you fight with WILL stick to punching and wrestling during a fight. Especially when its just some escalated argument. Not everyone has it in them to bite a mans face or rip someones testicles off.
5. We are talking about Jiu-jitsu as a self defense...what average guy knows how to use "Dropping energy" to stop a take down? Jiu-jitsu works wonderfully against your average person.
PadLockum 2 years ago
4. Mostly they aren't serious about hurting you and its really only sport. I nor any other black belt in this system make it a requirement to bite a man's face or rip his testicles off to survive a conflict. They're options in an ANYTHING GOES situation.
5. Many MAs work against the avg person in avg conditions. If there is a more efficient way to control a conflict, why not go with that method? That method for me is Guided Chaos. If JJ works for you, I don't see why you care what we say.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
I don't care what you say unless you say Jiu-jitsu is completely ineffective as a self defense..I care because that is false. It may not be perfect for self defense on its own but it is certainly competent. I also have a problem with you saying your style can render Jiu-jitsu ineffective based on one video showing a crappy jiu-jitsu guy with bad technique gettin man handled. You show some good technique gettin demolished and I wouldn't be offended.
PadLockum 2 years ago
When did "I" say we could render Ju Jitsu ineffectve based on one video? Just because this is all "you" see doesn't make it the end all of this system. Until a person feels the system, there will be doubts no matter what we put on video.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Also, this goes back to my original point. We are only interested in self defense and not dueling.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Grappling?
I didn't see any one there with any real understanding of grappling.
allentate 2 years ago
Again, you're twisting what we're saying. I don't care how unpredictable BJJ is if I can't use it for self defense.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
You CAN use it for self defense and IT HAS BEEN used for self defense. Why are you being so obtuse? I HAVE used it in 4 street fights alone, and twice in prison. I have seen at least 5 videos of it being used on Youtube...and heard of Countless others...Why do you keep refuting against facts?
PadLockum 2 years ago
Keep the prison thing to yourself bro. No need to sound tough because I honest to God don't give a damn. However, if YOU know it works then that's really all that counts. And you're right, people have been mounting and punching people since "forever". I'm willing to bet cavemen did it as a way of settling disputes and showing dominance. However, that's NOT what we are talking about. Sneak into a school or a seminar and train with us and you'll get a different perspective.
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
First of all going to prison doen'st make you tuff...homosexuals go to prison, perverts and "tuff guys's" . Going there wasn't something I'm proud of or anything to brag about...it means I got caught being stupid. I was merely referencing it from times I've used jiu-jitsu.
PadLockum 2 years ago
It's understandable as long as you realize it's not a good thing. I had a guy tell me that he used to smash people in jail and he saw me doing Anywhere Strikes and refused to work out with me. The reason he gave me was because for him all fights are to the death. :-(
UniversalStandards 2 years ago
Yes i agree eye gougeing etc can be effective but they require skill like any other..well skill(lol)specifically accuracy, to get your thumbs in a fast moving grapplers eyes is not that easy as he goes for the take down remember if this truelly is a street fight the grappler will most likely be useing foul tactics tactics too were possible. I think both sides have a good deal to offer the MA and self defence community.
BudoWolfy 3 years ago
Reasons most can't make vital attacks work is the lack of guiding combative principles and the use of vital attacks defensively instead of offensively. Its easy to do if your pliability, balance, body unity and sensitivity are properly trained.
He moves his eyes move to another target. If clinched, break w/dropping fright reactions. If taken down, pull legs toward chest without leaving a gap to prevent more entanglement. I'm being simplistic as "hands on" is the only way to get the point.
UniversalStandards 3 years ago
Ok, My opinion. I have grappled, wrestled and taken part in numerous MA's, just to quantify my "Credentials". All the discussions here seem to be assuming a perfect scenario and are not really discussing slip trip and fall. If a commited grappler gets a good takedown it HURTS and causes DAMAGE!!!!the grappler in this vid does not SEEM commited or well trained. However having used, and yes trained foul tactics those can also be very effective
BudoWolfy 3 years ago
why do you think wrestling and jiu jitsu exist in cagefighting WITH WITH eyegouging and groinshots????? there are many videos that show this! as Bas rutten said just becuase you eye gouge me or you groin shot me doesn't mean im just going to let go. i will just get more irritated and HURT YOU EVEN MORE. NEVER NEVER piss off the guy with an adventageous position. yes i agree you should not take the fight to the ground in the streets, but if its just you and him and he knows f.EX muay thai?
93alvbjo 3 years ago
Going after vital targets from an inferior position won't save you from grappling. However, it's easier to avoid those positions if you are willing to damage the attacker before he gets there. It's almost impossible to grapple without severely exposing yourself unless you've completely off balanced the attacker. If he wants to grapple, we aren't talking groin shots. We're talking about detaching his gonads from his body. We re talking about crushing his throat.
UniversalStandards 3 years ago
I don't care what Bas Rutten says, if he is eye gouged or hit in the groin it hurts,maybe he ignores the pain but the damage to his body will still happen.even if he wins its a hollow victory,damage to the groin is serious people and not being able to see will be a hindrance.He's not superman you know.Aside from this I still think Bas Rutten's a great fighter,but not everyone is Bas Rutten.
PhoenixNinjaBlack 3 years ago
I don't really know much about Rutten, but he's sadly mistaken if he thinks he's going to keep coming after a well executed eye gouge( meaning: all the way through the membrane behind the eye leading to the brain). This is a killing move, not something that's just going to piss him off.
shniddles 3 years ago
Eye gouges were allowed in early UFC and vale tudo fights. Eye gouges work , period, but people tend to defend their eyes instinctively. It's like a punch to the chin, you'd likely KO an opponent without fail but that target doesn't come cheap. If it did every boxing match would last less than three minutes.
philosopher2king 3 years ago
You're right. It's not easy to gouge someone at all unless their training completely ignores the possibility that it could happen. In our case, eye gouges represent but a tiny fraction of what he have available in our arsenal. I don't like referencing examples outside of GC simply because based on my experience 99% simply do not have the pliability to make any lethal moves work in touching range the way we do. They get tight and basically lock themselves out from these possibilities.
UniversalStandards 3 years ago
hahahaha, Try to apply that on the streets, Guys give me a break. All martial art are good, but this one, i really cant call it a martial art. // Sifu
shiifu 3 years ago
With all due respect, I can't take your opinion serious. I would like to but unless I'm wrong I don't believe there's a great deal of violence in Sweden, specifically to the point that it qualifies you to speak about "the streets".
UniversalStandards 3 years ago
lol, crime levels in Sweden (especially assaults and sexual assaults) are higher than most EU countries I think. You're an idiot.
In your mind is Sweden a country of naked blonde women running around rolling green hills?
RobJT 3 years ago